Season 7 Finale, Behind the Scenes of Practice Disrupted

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B So we are at the end of what season is this? Season 7? Season 7. Season 7. Can you believe it? That's a 140 well, this is number a 140 for us. It's been quite a long ride.

A Ex yeah. That is so shocking to me.

B So we're turning the tables again. It's not often that it's just the 2 of us, but we have some news that we'll get to at the end of the episode. But today, we're turning the tables back on Jeanine. We have this little prompt that we do for all of our guests, and it says here, We open each episode by asking our guests to let us know if there's anything you wanna share with our listeners, not in your formal bio, that they may not know about you, so perhaps a fun fact. So but you've been with us for a 140 episodes, Janine. So what fun new facts do you want our listeners to know about?

A I don't know if it's a new fact, but I think it's worth just restating in addition to running the podcast with you and covering a 140 episodes of conversations with over 200 people. My name's Janine Chastain. I'm the founder and owner of Apostrophe Consulting, ex and I studied architecture and worked in the practice of architecture for award winning firms in San Francisco for 9 years for basically going off on my own and starting my business. I had worked a little bit in the world of marketing for architects. I earned my MBA with a concentration in social entrepreneurship. And over the last 4 years, I've been building my business from scratch ex while also helping to build this podcast.

B When we started this podcast during the pandemic, what were you hoping to get out of these conversations.

A That's a great question. I was trying to think about this. I think it's several things. We had both hit this point in our careers where we were thinking about launching our businesses. Ex and I think you and I saw this as an opportunity to collaborate and bring basically like our post MBA brains together to collaborate in a forum that would allow us to explore the business of architecture. And I had just wrapped up several years working to develop the AI Leadership Institute, and I was ready for my next project. So I was building my business, and I was thinking ex the podcast could be a really great outlet for exploring all of these different ways practice was changing to understand it better and maybe, hopefully, come up with some solutions around how to make it ex easier for people working in practice. So I think that this has been a great exploration towards our shared desire to move the profession in a new direction and help advance the business education of architects and think about how firms can operate new ways.

A I think you and I both had gotten tired of hearing people complain about the challenges that we experience in practice, but not address it. So I hope through the process of having all these conversations, people have discovered new ideas or figure out some new solutions that they can integrate into the way they're running their businesses.

B Yeah. I remember you having with me earlier in the beginning of this season about how we really wanna be action oriented. How can our guests talk about Something that one, you know, any of our listeners can take and either go apply personally or apply within their firms. I think that's something we definitely want to keep going and doing going forward. So much of what has me, I think, in my overall participation within the industry and what I want us to change our mindset about is everything that's happened to us ex And look towards all the opportunities that we have to gain and embrace in the future.

A I think the common thread for me, ex Evelyn is also that we're both very entrepreneurial, and we were looking for ways to spark that kind of entrepreneurial spirit in others in our industry to think about how do we think outside the box? How do we bring new ideas into our business models? And then also the fact that I think both of us ex felt outside of practice at different phases of our career. You know, we have this common interest to make sure that there's space for others who, like us, have alternative career paths. And so I think that this forum, ex we prioritized voices that were not normally called upon to speak about the business of architecture. And I think we brought in an entire new array of perspectives that are both outside the industry and adjacent to the industry and leaders who have so much to contribute but had not previously been asked to contribute in that way.

B Yeah. I think that's a really important point, and I think one of the things that our listeners nerds may not entirely realize or maybe even appreciate is that we we have gotten some incredible firms, ex Design award winning firms on, right, with MAS and Brooks Scarpa, obviously. But our episodes with them have been focused on practice operations and practice management and the culture within their firms. I think you and I have both fought the intellectual battle ex being approached by other firms who we have otherwise heard that their cultures might not be the greatest, ex And kind of made the decision to not bring on a firm that has won many design awards because we didn't exactly know what their story would be around their their culture and the practice management of their firm. Mhmm.

A Yeah. That one's been tricky.

B It has been 4 years. So why don't we take a little step back in time to see how it's grown over the years? And what I love about ex What you've brought to the podcast is you're a much more avid podcast listener than I ever was or could ever be, I would say. So I think you continue to push the creative content and kind of the voice of the podcast, which has been ex Extremely appreciated because I don't listen to enough podcasts to have that perspective and that critique on ex on the narrative that we're providing. So why don't you step us through each of the years of the podcast and how it's kind of evolved or or changed a little bit ex Or some of your favorite episodes.

A Sure. Well, I always think it's interesting that episode 1 is our most popular downloaded episode. Obviously, people wanna go back to the beginning and listen. And it's funny. It's when I first listened to that on replay, I, like, cringe a little bit because I was like, oh gosh. We sound like we're not sure, very timid, and we're like, I don't know. We have all these big questions, and we're trying to answer them. I've revisited since, and I've gotten more comfortable with listening to my voice.

A But I can hear ex that we're not quite sure what the heck we're doing. We're just trying to figure it out. It felt like jumping off the cliff and just getting started. But I would say that whole 1st year, it was 2020. I think we launched in May, June. So it's during the pandemic, and we're very early on trying to figure it out. And it's an early collaboration with Gable Media. We were trying to figure out what ex direction we wanted to go with it, how we best collaborated.

A It was definitely a learning year. And so 2 of my favorite episodes that came out of that year are the 2 voices from the future of the profession, episodes number 9 and number 16. They're storytelling episodes ex that give listeners a chance to listen to others' experiences in the industry, and they still make me cry when I listen to them.

B I would love to get any feedback of our listeners if that's a format that other people enjoy going forward. They actually take a lot of time to set up, but those are episodes that I find myself getting very emotional in, but also actually learning A tremendous amount by reliving some moments through the perspective of others and the industry.

A I mean, I think that that came to your point. Like, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I you know, we early on, we're like, this is gonna be an interview format. This is conversational, which makes sense if you're trying to have a conversation about business operations. But I had listened to so much podcasting that ex had had a huge profound impact on me, like This American Life and Radiolab and, you know, those are the ones everyone knows. But there's so many more ex that get into that narrative building storytelling component of audio, and I was like, oh my gosh. I wanna do that. And so ex these 2 episodes were our 1st experiment with trying to take that on, and we basically ex invited the voices on that we wanted to participate.

A We gave them the structure of the episode that we wanted to create, but we very much, like, handed over the creative liberty for them to run with it in any direction that they wanted to. And I just I still, like, remember the 1st time I heard episode 9, the stories come in. Sarah Curry, I can tell she's, like, sitting on the back in her yard, and you can hear all these crickets around her. And it just like I got goosebumps because I was like, ex oh my gosh. This is so cool. Just the creativity of experimenting and playing with audio and trying to bring it ex and stitch it together to tell some kinda really interesting story.

B So that was kind of our learning why I feel like I was gonna say that was our learning and growing period, but I feel like ex Every single year is a period of learning and growth for us. I think we we talk about the need for the architecture industry to remain more agile, extol and I wanna be honest with our audience that we kind of get to the end of every season, and we ask ourselves, ex Do we wanna continue to do this, and what's our bandwidth to do this, and what's our ability to continue to evolve ex Evolve the stories, but also just continue this labor of love Mhmm. As a podcast. Yeah. So any anything strike your mind in 2021? I think

A at that point, we were just coming out of the pandemic. That was the 1st year, I think, we tried to do 40 for an entire year, I think. Yeah. We were still very much refining it. We're still working with cable media. What stands out about that year is we tackle a lot more on the technology front, which is really where your expertise is. You invited in all these really cool guests that were completely out of my network. We also tackled the topic of workplace and, you know, return to work, which was very interesting.

A Ex and then I think we were still trying to figure out how to structure the show and do interviews.

B Yeah. So one of the striking things for anyone that is interested in running a podcast and starting their own, even within their firm, is a lot of the guests that we brought on even recently have indicated that we're one of the few shows that ex have prep sheets that send the questions in advance. And I know even if I'm getting on a webinar, a panel For a webinar, similarly, I just feel more comfortable going into that situation knowing what questions that they're going to ask. Ex So that's something I think helpful for everyone who might be interested in starting a podcast or even, I don't know, good meeting practice, I would say, if you have agenda in Yeah. In advance.

A It's strange to me. I haven't done a podcast where I've been invited on, not had questions. Ex I think there a lot of our guests really value that we take the time to consider their expertise and try to find thoughtful questions that relate to the narrative that they could bring or what's the lesson that we're trying to learn from them. So just so our listeners understand, when you hear the episodes from us, we have a very loose script of questions. We don't always stick to it. That's like the first thing we tell guests that come on. We're like likely to go down a rabbit hole and ask off script questions, but we definitely have a framework that we try to give guests so that they and it's very important for introverted leaders, especially to have those questions in advance so they can kinda organize their thoughts before ex Going into one of these interviews. And I think by 2022, we understood not only the mechanics of what we were doing, but also the direction that we were going with the content and, like, what we were trying to create in terms of types of guests we wanted to have on, types of conversations, topics that we wanted to cover.

A I think in that season, I just remember well, I think I've done this with you every season, Evelyn, but I'm always like, oh my gosh. We have to sit down and we've gotta figure out who are our 20 people we're bringing on. Noted, it's always bloated, and we have way more than 20 people per season even though we have 20 episodes. But ex I was always trying to build the strategy of what topics do we need to address and what speakers do we need to bring on. Ex and I remember feeling like a ton of pressure about the need to cover so many important topics to make sure that they were really well done because I felt like, well, if only we create this episode, then somebody out there is gonna, like, hear it, and it will unlock some hidden mystery to fixing this profession.

B Yeah. I I think ex 2022, when you and I were at the women's leadership summit and we were getting a few ex Younger women, I feel like I can call myself an older person now in the profession because there's so many more individuals that are younger than me. But when we had some younger individuals Coming up to us and and doing it you know, being of kind of a fangirl of the podcast, it was both overwhelming. And For me, that was an indication of how far the reach of our podcast had had gone, and the type of individuals that we were attracting to our podcast. And and And the fact that, like, as you said, I think we were unlocking something in if it wasn't something that they could take and go and do immediately after explore they listen to it. I think it may be at at a very minimum, I hope that it was somebody who who realized that they weren't alone in their thoughts that they were having ex about where they were in their profession and where their profession is and how to move things forward. Mhmm.

A Yeah. I've had so many people reach out that have said that the show or just the topics that we're covering, like, have really positively impacted them, and that is huge for me. Ex I think I secretly hoped that it would be these firm leaders that would listen to it, and then they would have this moment of illumination where they were like, okay. I'm gonna change how I lead, and it's gonna solve things. I think more realistically what's happened is we've had various conversations that have supported a variety of people in practice from firm leaders to people early in their careers, and it's more about I think it's almost like throwing a life raft out to people and making them realize like, know you're not just swimming in this ocean by yourself. Like, there is a much larger community out there of people that are thinking similar things that you're you're thinking and wondering and grappling with.

B Yeah. And I also struggle with internally just how I think there's a lot ex change that needs that we're advocating for within the profession. And it is a lot of people within this industry, but ex At the same time, I mean, you and I are both involved in the AIA and those that are most active in changing the profession And the organization, I think, you know, actually they show up on a regular basis. So even though ex The industry is large. I feel like those that are trying to move it and make change, that there is a small community of changemakers out there, ex And we're finding ways to engage with one another more frequently and and figuring out what we're working on ex finding ways to share that and build off of one one another's energy to to begin to move things in any direction.

A I've been thinking about this a lot lately, but one of my biggest frustrations over the last 4 I mean, I think maybe it was a frustration before we started the podcast, but it's definitely clear to me now. I've run into architects and designers, and, like, some people see it and they're like, oh, yeah. Of course. These things need to change. And then I run into others who it's like they can't see it. Like, it's a I spy, and they can't find the object in the image. And ex that is confusing to me based on my own experiences, but I have learned that not everybody's experiences match mine. And what's been really profound about doing the podcast is understanding the complexity.

A I think we talked about this in prep for that lecture we did earlier this year, Evelyn, about Mhmm. There's so many layers to the complexity of change and, like, naming it ex and understanding it, and not everybody has access to the information that we do. And so ex It's hard for some people to see it, but I think everyone's feeling it. And so it's hard to say, oh, it's this one thing, and if we change that, it will fix things. It's like

B Right. Like, pay everyone more money.

A Right. It's not that because there's no entire series of dominoes that hit that one thing.

B Yeah. I think it is. I think it's the complexity, but I think that's also what I've gotten out of the podcast too is, You know, we've had guests on that have made me I've always said as somebody who's grown into leadership, ex My mind can be changed. I've seen myself change over the years, especially when I became a mother. But for me, having these conversations is really about understanding new perspectives that I otherwise would not have had ex The opportunity to to be a part of or be empathetic too. And that's been really helpful to broaden my ex I would say to actually maybe even soften my frustrations around everything that is happening because it's so complex. And because, Like you said, it's not one lever that we can pull that's gonna make everything better all of a sudden. Mhmm.

A Yeah. I feel that way. I think becoming a business owner has given me that additional perspective, and I've talked about this on the show. I think when ex we started the podcast. I very much had that perspective of the person who worked in practice and had been employed in practice. Ex and now having worked with so many firms and run a business and understand the pain points that the owners and the leaders face, ex I have way more empathy for that perspective. Now my brain is constantly trying to figure out how do we ex how do we bridge these 2 experiences going on simultaneously? Like, what are the solutions that could create greater success for both. And I think that that complexity exists in a lot of different dynamics that play in our profession.

B Yeah. So what do you think about when you look back at 2023 and what we accomplished this season? How ex How do you feel about it?

A I mean, I gotta say, Evelyn, I'm so proud of all of what we've done. I'm not saying that to boast. I just feel like ex If people knew the amount of effort that went into this and to do this for 4 years, the discipline that has taken to do this work, I feel like ex we found our voice and our rhythm to creating the show. I think that there's a lot of things that changed behind the scenes this year. Like, we were thinking about how to deliver great content but reduce the amount of time that we were spending on the back end process. So ex so we're streamlining our own systems and processes and getting better at articulating the change. I think I'm really proud of the quality of work ex that we produced this year and the level of speakers that we brought on. Who were your favorite speakers this year?

B Well, so definitely Carol Ross Berdy. I think Robert Easter. It is so funny because when we look back at ex Season 1 of the show. I think you and I were enjoying bringing on a lot of our friends, frankly, to start. We're like, who are we gonna get on the show? Who's gonna make it? He's gonna say an easy yes to this unknown podcast, and now we get a lot of people asking us to come on the show. So I feel like in some instances, we've started I've started new friendships, and they came from the conversations we've had on the show. Ex And I would say Robert Easter is one of those. I just saw him this last week in DC, and we spent a couple ex good hours together, and I feel like I can consider him a friend and mentor now.

B And that magic wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the show. And then ex The other amazing part is we received essays from a professional practice class, in Tulane. Ex So Austin and Cassidy who teach the undergraduate and graduate programs of professional practice at Tulane invited their ex Class to listen to the episode with Robert Easter, and then the grad program students at least okayed, and then write an essay about it. And the grad students okayed gave their thumbs up For them to pass the essays on to us, so I'm just reading through those now. But everything that has evolved out of that one episode ex As an example for me has just been incredible and and touched me personally. Like I said, I had a very deep conversation with Robert ex That I I don't think would have come had we had not reached out to him and said, do you wanna be on this podcast?

A That's amazing. The essays peace. That shocked me that in honestly, it also was a little overwhelming that an entire I knew that because of the NCARB scholarship for professional practice. We had a lot of professional practice classes listening to the show this season, but then to actually ex Go experience an entire classroom of people that you realize listen to the podcast and then wrote an essay about it. That was, like, a little overwhelming, and I was ex humbled by that severely. It's so cool to know that we're making an impact in that way. And I think it's hilarious that ex firms want to come on our show that PR teams are trying to pitch their people to come on our show. And I love that people are interested, ex And I'm, like, simultaneously flabbergasted, and it's like I mean, it's just we're just 2 women who are very entrepreneurial trying to build a ex Podcasts, and we've been bootstrapping it for 4 years.

A And to have success, it's profoundly ex overwhelming and humbling.

B So what are some of your favorite episodes? Maybe not even just from this ex season, but from the last 4 years.

A I think it's different categories of things. It's so hard. Now we've had 200 new people that I feel closer to an industry. The storytelling episodes, I'm so proud of those, seriously. Like, that is such a piece of my heart, getting to know those people that come on and and share their story and helping them craft something that's ex bigger than any individual, but, like, holistically has the potential to really move people. Ex this season, we took a different direction, so I got to produce that episode on the NCARB scholars of professional practice and ex discussing the need to expand professional practice education. And I went to Indianapolis, met with the 16 pro prac professors and basically tried to figure out how to stitch that narrative together. So that was I think that was a really big lift, this season that, like I loved the creativity that went into it.

A It was very difficult, but I'm very proud of the outcome. Ex But when I look back on past seasons with similar episodes, so, like, we did that for Entre Architect last fall. We had I'm so proud of the episode that you did, Evelyn, where it's about mothers in practice, and I remember really pushing you on that story to get you to tell your story.

B I know. And then you pushed me to listen to it afterwards because I didn't wanna listen to it again after whatever.

A I know. And we listened to it together in Austin, and I was just so unbelievably thrilled with the outcome because I think people don't realize how hard it is for you to open up, not to put you on the spot. But I think you sometimes are closed off, but, like, ex That episode is so deep, and the fact that we were able to get to that level of storytelling with you was so cool to accomplish. Like, that was a great milestone, I feel like, in letting people understand the real you. And I know it was a very tough one for you to make, but it turned out so good.

B I think I recorded that story multiple times, and I didn't even really know what story I was going to tell ex Either. Thank you for that. I mean, I'm a huge introvert. I I've never I've never said otherwise. Ex But I do think people the people closest to me, it does. I know it takes a lot for me to open up. So I I mean, I jokingly say that I get jealous When I feel like people tend to well, for one thing, I think our names have become synonymous with one another because a practice disrupted. So I often go places and people are like, where's Janine? Like, I know her word about wherever she is.

B Oh, that's cool. Well, how's Janine doing? It's funny because I feel like more people actually reach out to you whether that is to bother you to be on the podcast or not. I don't know if it's a result of me just not being as as friendly or as open, but that's Something that I'm personally still working on even as a leader. When I tell people to be more transparent and show their human side, that's I think I'm saying it as much to myself as I am saying it to our audience.

A I struggle with putting the emphasis on myself. Ex One of my struggles is it's so much easier for me to focus on everybody else and to help all these people tell their story and to interview them, but it's very hard for me to articulate my own story. It takes a lot of effort. And I have not done one of these stories. I've not been as brave as the people who've come on our show to do it. I don't even know what story I would tell.

B Ex I think that's something that we could work towards.

A Yeah. I haven't figured it out yet. Maybe running the business. I don't know.

B Ex But I do feel that you were very vulnerable earlier in the season when you talked about Apostrophe Consulting. And I think It was funny because in the making of that episode, I specifically told you that you don't get to listen to it ex Until it goes live. Yeah. I don't think people will realize this, but behind the scenes, Janine has listened to especially during season 1 and season 2, Like, every episode 5 times to, like, quality, to QC it, to make sure the production is right. I just don't think People fully appreciate the care with which you have held everyone's stories to make sure that it comes out The way it does for our audience. So but thank you. Thank you for all of your hard work on that.

A Thank you. I, This year, I learned I'm a perfectionist. So I've been Just this year? Just this year, I you know, I would say that is a skill I learned from working with some really tough architects that are brilliant. But I think when you ex you care so much, you can get into that habit. And I always wanted for every episode to come out really polished. And I was always worried someone would be listening, and they would find the flaws in the episode. And so I was like, well, if I triple listen to everything and make sure it's perfect, then they can't criticize it. But, you know, that actually doesn't work.

A I do wanna also acknowledge, okay. So the Whitney m Young, that was another Riding the Vortex, a huge awesome episode I'm very proud of.

B I would say and we created I've got to revisit some older friendships in that one, and I would say we expanded some friendships there as well.

A I think so too. And this year okay. So I was in Seattle ex and we knew we wanted to bring on Methoon, and I went to their office while I was there and got to meet with Marna and sit down with her and talk about the narrative that we wanted to create for that episode. I got to tour their office. And then when I got back, we recorded with their 3 leaders, and it just it was such a cool that was so cool to get to go there and then do the episode. But I agree with you. The conversations that also stand out to me are, like, the interview format with the leaders that I just am blown away that we even got to have on our show. So, like, Carol Ross Barney, Katherine Darnstadt.

A I remember when you told me Brooke Scarpa was gonna come on the show, I was just flabbergasted. I think that's the 2nd time I used that word on the show. I was truly beside myself, and I'll never forget ex recording with them on Christmas Eve.

B Yeah. This time last year. And it was funny because they were, like we were still joking about who was and wasn't in ex In the office, and of course, they were in the office. They were

A in the office at Christmas Eve.

B They were in the office recording with us. But I think it's just a testament. Both Angie and Larry have been mentors even from afar throughout my career, and I think that's That's, like, the really great thing about some of these huge award winners. Those are the people that you don't try to bother that often because, you know, they're really, really busy. But there hasn't been a time when I reached out to either one of them in need or, I guess, beseeching their support in one way or another that they ex have never that they haven't answered and said, let's do that. I did help Larry out during his gold medal presentation at a 23. Ex the slideshow breakdown, but I think that's the least I could do to kind of repay him and Angie for all that they've done for for me. Those little memorable moments that were like

A Yeah. I remember that. That was really funny. And then I think this season, the mass design group, That was a huge wish list on my bucket list for the show. And then I also got to bring on some of my clients, and we did episodes like we did the early one with Karim Timberlake. We did 2 with Brick who's since been acquired by HTA. And then I think this season, we brought on architects for a and just getting to tell those stories with my clients was so cool and fun.

B Yes. Ex Which is also a reminder that I imagine Architectes for, you might wanna link them again below because I imagine that their internship their internship slash scholarship should be opening up soon. You should check-in with them.

A Mhmm.

B So we've revisited some of our favorites. We've talked a little bit about what We've both learned. Anything in particular stand out in your mind in terms of learnings for you?

A Ex oh, so many things.

B And then you've discovered that you're a perfectionist?

A I'm a perfectionist. I'm coming to terms with my own blind spots. Ex Okay. So if 140 episodes is a marathon, I think everyone out there can say, oh, yeah, it'd be cool to start a podcast. But until you know what ex recording a 140 episodes feels like it is it's a journey. We had a vision and we have been experimenting through the process to refine the body of work that we're creating. And week after week, we've showed up to pull in speakers that align with the narrative that we're trying to tell to educate the industry. And one of the things that stands out to me, Evelyn, is, like, we always have a finite amount of time.

A Like, we know gotta get the episode live on Thursday morning, and we have. You know, I don't think I don't think we've missed that more than once.

B Which I I think is, like, the the scramble of it all. Like, we set this deadline for whatever reason of Thursday morning, and we we definitely have missed it. I think we are only human. And even if the episode live, we've definitely missed posting to social Mhmm. A few times, ex but that's the that's the scramble. Like, sometimes our guests get sick or our guests have emergencies, and we've just so happened that we haven't recorded in advance probably as far as we should, and we're we've made some Hail Mary calls to some friends at sometimes saying, like, can you come on the episode? Can you come on and talk? We need to get something up by next Thursday, and our deadline this week, but it's been awesome to ex Kind of see it all come together when it does and and to look back on that as a completed body of work.

A Yeah. I would say to anybody who's trying to strive for something. And I feel like we were striving in creating this show. It's a process of just like showing up. So for us, it was always searching for the story threads for each episode, figuring out time to record, to get both of our schedules aligned on 2 different coasts with our guests, whatever time zone they're in, trying to figure out how to have the mental bandwidth to have a thoughtful conversation, when we're busy people. I mean, you're raising 2 little ones among other things. And I've been building a business from scratch. So this is creating this podcast has all been in addition to the work that we do off air.

A We don't get paid a lot. We do

B get sponsors. I was gonna say, you know, the majority of our sponsorship money goes directly back into the production and ex And to making it a little easier for us. So I think this is the 1st season we actually paid for our show notes to get done by people other than ourselves. And we did hire in a little bit of marketing help, but that's only because we got a little bit more sponsorship money this year. So it's definitely a labor of love.

A Ex Yeah. This is like a hobby for sure or like a passion project.

B A hobby.

A Yeah. I think the number one thing I took away from this is how much I've grown. It's like really stretched me, and I feel like I've grown a ton. Ex and I think when I left San Francisco, Evelyn, it was, like, the fall before we started podcast, and I came back to the East Coast. I was, like, restarting my life and figuring out how to launch a business and trying to figure out how to move forward during a pandemic. And ex I just think, like, having the podcast week after week. This show has helped me move forward in my life and figuring out all that stuff by myself ex and just getting to speak with so many people who care about the same things that we do that has ex made me feel less alone. Getting to work with you has made me feel less alone.

A I think getting to work with you has helped me see my own place in this industry, whereas, you know, I felt like I was trying to find it. I feel like I have my place in the industry now. Does that make sense? I don't know.

B Ex I feel like simultaneously, I found my place in the industry. Right? I think the hope of practice of architecture was always meant to be a place ex Where architects can explore new careers and new products and services beyond traditional practice. Ex And this whole nature of the pandemic and needing to change, and more recently with ex with AI and that evolution and how it's affecting practice. I think for me, it even shifted my ex My perspective and what the practice of architecture should be. I think that you and I both focus on in very different ways expect to the business of architecture and practice operations and learning and development of employees and mentoring. Every time I feel like we have a conversation, then my voice becomes kind of a little bit in my head, it becomes a little bit more clear ex About, like, this is the right place to be focused on right now.

A Yeah. Likewise. When I got my MBA, I had a concentration in entrepreneurship. Ex and I knew since I was a very young girl that I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but actually stepping out ex from a firm. And becoming an entrepreneur is an entirely different thing. And going through that process has been demanding of me. It's pushed me to grow substantially personally and professionally. Ex and I would say that this show, the support from you, our guests, from our listeners has helped me step forward within myself and giving me the courage to take my entrepreneurial journey and become the person that I need to be to do that.

A And so that's my dream and the support of this community. It's really helped me find that path for myself.

B So let's talk about next year, which is a little bit of an announcement, a sad one. Ex So, Janine, you wanna let us our listeners what's going to happen? That's a weird transition. So let's talk about next year, 2024, ex practice disrupted so that we do have some changes coming. And while I'm a little bit sad, I am ex Excited about what you're going to be doing with Apostrophe Consulting going forward. So, Janine, did you want to share your news?

A Ex Yeah. This is a hard one. And I guess maybe from the tone of the conversation, you guys can probably figure out what's coming. But, basically, after a lot of thought this share I just made the difficult decision that starting in January 2024, I'm not gonna be co hosting Practice Disrupted anymore. Ex it's not because I don't love doing this. It's actually that I have to choose between 2 things that I love, running my business and running the podcast. And ex while I've loved doing the show, it's been a true expression of my creative heart, and I love the work that's come out of this. I have to put my entire focus on Apostrophe Consulting.

A I'm I have grown so much personally and professionally, and my business has grown in the last 4 years and heading into my 5th year as a small business. I have very big goals I wanna tackle next year, and I think I need to put all of my energy there to make it successful.

B But that doesn't mean that we can't be possibly seeing you at all next season.

A That's right. I feel like it'd be pretty weird if I just vanished. And so Evelyn and I have been talking about maybe the best sway to handle this is, you know, I could I'll probably come back for some guest appearances, like guest hosting, but you just won't hear me for the whole season, and I'll look forward to it when those opportunities arise.

B A few things. I think You and I have always been our own separate people, but we love working together. So if you like the ex package of Janine and I in conversation. There's been some wonderful opportunities that we got to go and speak at professional practice classes and go and speak at conferences. Janine and I are always a game for an opportunity to work together on something with all of you should you ex be addressed at all. The second thing though is why don't you give our listeners, and we'll listen in the show notes, ways that they can get in touch with you, maybe new social media accounts that they should be following if they're not following yet, and anything that you would like to ex hear from our guests as you depart as cohosts.

A Number 1, I just wanna say thank you to everybody who's listened. And if I've had any small impact on making your professional life easier, better, ex or made you feel supported and seen. I want you to know that that's incredibly important to me, and I'm so glad. Ex and if you wanna stay in touch, you could definitely reach out to me. That I would definitely love to hear about ex what you enjoyed from the show or what the show's meant to you or how it's made an impact on you. I think the best place to find me is over on LinkedIn. You can find me Janine Chastain, or you can contact me through my website, Apostrophe Consulting. Ex I'd love to help your firm if that's something that you are needing support on.

A If you're a business owner or a next gen leader and you're trying to navigate change, reach out. Maybe we can continue the conversation in a different way. Ex It's sad. I love podcasting. I've loved doing the show. I don't really wanna leave. I just feel like I have to take the time to grow this company that I've tried to build from scratch, which has been a very difficult, challenging ex leadership opportunity. And I have I'm super excited about that.

A And I don't want to say goodbye. I just want to reinvest my whole heart into that in 2024 and see what I can grow if I give it all of my heart and all my energy.

B Ex Yes. I was gonna say this wasn't an easy I feel like this is a conversation Janine and I have had at the end of every season about how we Create Practice Disrupted in a way where we can still continue and do our own things along with growing the podcast. Ex But it was we've alluded to over the course of this episode, we've just really talked about how much of the labor of of love it is. It is it's sad for me to see you go, Janine, but there's no love lost there. I think I realized that no amount of begging can have you will have you join me in 2024 at this point. That doesn't mean that 2025, I'm not open to revisiting them either, but I do appreciated our growth and our friendship and the support that you've offered me ex Throughout these past 4 years as well, so thank you for that.

A Yeah. Of course, Evelyn. And I know I think yeah. You and I have been on a journey for sure, and, like, I think you and I put our business minds together and try to figure out how to make the podcast work and make it financially viable and allow us to do all the things that we're trying to do. I super value our friendship a lot, and I don't worry that you will still be talking each other, like, all the time. We just won't be recording it.

B Okay. So last thoughts on ex The hope for the future of the profession, at least for 2024, like I said. I mean, let's face it. We'll probably I will have questions in the future of when Janine can come back to the podcast when she's ready to come back. So last thoughts for the future of the profession and your hope for the future.

A Ex Well, I think from a 140 episodes, the 3 things I hope our listeners will take away about the future of the profession. Number 1, I want architects to prioritize running profitable businesses and making sound choices in how they operate to simultaneously balance supporting staff and serving their clients. Number 2, there's so many layers to the change that needs to happen in our industry. We've spoken with over 200 guests with more than 250 ideas on what needs to change and how. And I hope that architects continue to embrace the possibility for these changes so that we can lead our industry forward in a new direction. And number 3, ex please welcome the people who studied architecture back into the profession. They may find themselves on other paths, ex but they still see themselves as part of our industry. And I want you to remember that we can gain so much more by embracing them than excluding them and we can also learn from those who are outside of practice.

B So a big thank you to Janine ex For a 140 episodes I don't know. I forgot what the statistic was on how many episodes, and then people usually quit podcasting. But I think, you know, we made it to a 140 together. And then I think we want to give an extra special thank you to all of our guests, ex The over 200. Those are statistics that I'm gonna need to keep track. These are all things that Janine kept track that I'm gonna have to keep track of now. Ex To all of our guests and definitely all all of our listeners, this is the end of season 7, ex And season 8 will be back towards the end of January, early February in 2024.

A So, Evelyn, I'm gonna turn the table because I'm sure they're wondering, what do you what do you have in mind for next year? Any any teasers?

B I mean, Like you have said, I think we're at least a year out in the number of guests that we've been wanting to bring on the podcast that we haven't. So A few of them we've actually been trying to get on for multiple years. So I I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by By naming any names and not having any schedules work out, but there's a few recent award winners that I think we're gonna try to bring on. Ex There's a few people that are that are doing new and amazing things that we're inviting on. I think we're gonna continue to explore ex What all of this change in technology means for architecture going forward just because I live in tech ex As an architect, I also think we're going to explore more of those people who studied architecture and find themselves in other paths ex and see what their connection is back to practice. And then I'm I'm also interested there's a number of Professional practice professors that we've been talking to you about, bringing them on to talk about what the future of the education of ex Architecture and practice looks like and there are some there are some practices out there doing some really interesting and different and new things. Ex So they may not be award winning yet. We're equally always excited about design award winning firms, but I think we're even more excited about unique the unique approaches they they take with their clients and their projects ex And their extended products and services that continue to make their practices viable even in times when we're facing, ex A dip in the billings index as we are now.

B So that's that's what you have to look forward to in season 8.

A Awesome. Well, ex I'll be looking forward to watching that all unfold.

B Watching it all in fun and and critiquing from the sidelines. I look forward to your ongoing input no matter what.

A Well, to all of our listeners, thanks for listening this far, and we are super inspired by you all and appreciate your time. And I don't know, I guess have a happy holiday.

B I will see you next year and you will all see Janine sometime in 2024. Thanks for listening, and tune in end of January, early February for season 8.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast.

B Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in the community at practice of architecture.com/community.

A Our social media handle is practice of arc. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

B Thank you for joining us on practice disrupted, a podcast by the practice of architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.