Being an Archtivist

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of practice disrupted. Nyasha Harper Mishon is joining us today from her new home in Toronto, Canada, a recent transplant from Amsterdam, Netherlands. I have admired her from afar for a while now, following her on social media, and I am super excited to have her join us today. So here's a little background on Nyasha.

A Nyasha is a purpose driven architect, built environment expert, business strategist, and inclusion and sustainability advocate who thrives at the intersection of cities, design, inclusion, sustainability, and technology. I feel that's, like, everything. Those are the big topics we all hit on all the time now. She's a self proclaimed archivist, and we'll get into that a little bit more within the hour. But this is a term she coined for architecture and built environment professionals and enthusiasts driving environmental, social, and economic reform to foster positive changes in society and within the built environment sector. With experience in design and strategic development and international design studios, Niasha is a sought after speaker and most notably recently gave the keynote for the UIA World Congress of Architects in Copenhagen in 2023. Neasha, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you here.

B Yeah. Thank you. I'm super excited to be here.

A So we opened we just did a little bit more of a formal bio, but we opened the episode with a little bit of an icebreaker. Is there anything else that you would like our guests to know about you that might be surprising or even inform the conversation we're about to have?

B Well, I think well, highly relevant is that I'm an early listener and and super fan of the podcast. And I remember listening but, yeah, really, really, I remember listening to the first few episodes, and I was like, woah. This is so great to be able to sit in on conversations that I would love to have been a part of or things to hear things where people who I might not have, you know, been able to cross paths with. And I had reached out to Janine at the time because I was just kind of, moving into the space of of business and marketing and and business development within the field. And so I was like, you know, how can I learn from people who are who are doing that, role models who are who know that side of of the, of the profession? And I also remember the the last episode of the first season when y'all kind of it was an opportunity to hear more about you both as the host and why you got into this. And I remember Janine, like, teared up, and she was she was really emotional. And it was a moment that was I don't know. For me, it was really moving, and I remember it really well because it was encouraging to to hear from other people who were so adamant about, like, disrupting architecture practice.

B I I kind of felt a bit alone, let's say, like, in some of the spaces, like, trying to battle with the rigid systems and and misconceptions of of the industry. And so it was just so exciting to be like, wow. There's people who are talking about this, who are who have been, you know, for their entire careers have been in this space. And I think it was just really, for me, a moment that was also really important in my journey. So, yeah, it's kind of for me, it's super exciting to be here. And and, yeah, I think that the aspect of disrupting the profession and the industry is something that is so dear to me and and, yeah, I can really relate to.

A I am so sorry that Janine did not hear you get to say that live. And I wish this was, like, one of those episodes she could have come back and joined us for. So now I'm now I'm like, oh, maybe we should reschedule until Janine

B should be on. But,

A we will plow ahead, but I will let her know. And those are, like, the such kind words just about the podcast. And just to reiterate what you're saying, for us, the podcast has been and the community that's reached out to us because of it has also, you know, obviously made us feel a lot less alone in this space. So Yeah. Wow. That was an unexpected response to that first question. Thank you so

B much for that.

A So let's switch the conversation back to you because you're our guest and you know, you're why I'm here today. So you coined the term art artivist. I described it a little bit, but I'd love to hear you describe it in your own word. And actually, like, when did you first coin? I feel like that you that's been on your LinkedIn for as long as I've known you. So when did you first coin that word, and when did you see the need for more activists in the world?

B Yeah. So I think activism started, like, officially, let's say, it started in my, thesis project, my master thesis. And I I was, yeah, searching, you know, it's those moments where you're searching for for what you're interested in, who you are, and and this is what kind of came out of it. But I think the inception, like, started way before that, of course. And for me, I think it started back when I was doing my undergrad in Paris in architecture, and I was really shocked by how traditional and and modernist the education was. It was really like, you know, we had to follow Le Corbusier's way of of doing things and and the style. And I was just very shocked by the fact that we should follow, you know, someone from a 100 years ago at the time and so literally. Because I think that what he was really important for was the fact that he came out with these radical ideas.

B And it was about changing, you know, breaking free of the traditional ideas of ornament and and all these things that he thought was were frivolous. And it was about creating better and more functional, yeah, places and spaces for the people because it was very crowded in the cities at the time, etcetera. So it was I think that's what we should take from him rather than, like, taking, you know, the 5 points, of architecture too literally. But that's what I was kind of being taught at the time. So that dissonance, that wanting to to shift from this kind of traditional way was where it was it started to be, that activism started. And another source of inspiration was art history. I loved that class. I I was always super inspired by all these, yeah, movements that were born in Paris, you know, in the city that I was in, the city that I was born in as well.

B And there was always this friction between tradition and history, but also all things new and challenging the status quo. And so I kind of see it as activism being born in that environment, a new movement of of sorts that came to be in this context of the sort of traditional Parisian experience versus the new things, the global challenges that that I was seeing, experiencing, at the time and today still. And I really felt, we need something different. And so that's where this shift to activism came from. And I and I always kind of go back to Le Corbusier and how he came up with towards an architecture, architecture, and I kind of think, like, now we need towards an activism, something that's much more broad, much more inclusive. And architecture is a protected title, of course, and, like, it's a protected profession that's regulated and with good reason. It's quite elitist and quite exclusive in in a sense as well. And my idea with activism was about broadening it to outside of of people who don't necessarily hold this title, but who are very much a part of creating the built environment and the spaces, the communities, and the places that we need for for for us to be able to thrive.

B And so artivism is so much broader than than architecture in that sense. It can it can go into, yeah, community activism and and advocacy groups or policy makers to do with the built environment or developers or or architects, of course, working and designing within this space, but also those working on the profession and trying to create change in different ways, but all somewhat connected. So that's a bit, yeah, how how it came to be. So it's quite broad, but I think it's it's something that we need as well in a time when, you know, we feel a bit things are kinda siloed, and and we tend to work on things from different angles and in in smaller groups. And I think that having something that where we can feel that we're all working on the same thing, but from different angles, with different backgrounds, different perspectives, different expertise, I think can be quite empowering, and we're gonna need that collaboration to tackle the issues that we're dealing with today.

A I agree a 100%. It's interesting, but also not unexpected that it kind of came out of your master thesis.

B Mhmm.

A I guess my question is how has that definition for you evolved personally or where you see yourself within the big umbrella of kind of what you defined as arch archivists over time?

B Yeah, that's a great question. I think it definitely has evolved, but what I think is nice with it is that it's already quite inclusive in the sense that it doesn't limit anyone to just being an architect, for example, because that, I know when I became a registered architect, I was struggling with the fact of not knowing if I wanted to be a traditional architect or or do architecture in a traditional way. And so, activism has evolved for me because it's it's been a way to to to do all the things I'm passionate about, to to advocate and work towards, you know, just, inclusive, resilient built environment, but not necessarily in the traditional way that I thought I would, you know, throughout school and and in setting out to be an architect, but being able to do that in so many different ways. And so broadening, yeah, what what an activist can be. And I think with time, just meeting people and and seeing all the different, you know, stakeholders that they are within our industry that are so important to create, you know, a a space or a place or or to empower community, I realized that there's so many different ways of doing this. So it has expanded. Like, I think at the time, I thought, you you know, activism is this broad thing. Okay? But I think it's it's become even more, yeah, broad and and complex.

B So that's been quite exciting.

A So I'm gonna go off script because what I realized is, you know, we obviously have your bio in the show notes, and you you did recently moved and you you talk about being open to new adventures in your new home in in Toronto. So I I feel like our listeners are going to be asking, okay then, so what is she doing to be to to be an archivist? Like, what spaces are you operating in in now? And what are you doing that is enabling you to follow this passion or or, you know, what others might call? What's your work today? So yeah.

B Yeah. I think that's a great question. So it's it's been, yeah, a journey, like I said, like, moving out of the traditional architecture practice space. And now I'm, yeah, looking to really get involved in in nonprofits. And so working still within the built environment and within communities, but from a different angle. And I think that it's it's, an exciting chapter for me because, yeah, I always thought I would be an architect, like, kind of my whole life. That was the plan. You have these different paths that you that you're on, and you're like, this is what I need to do, and you take the different steps.

B And now it's it's completely different, and I'm seeing how I can bring that that expertise. So knowing architecture, having designed, having worked with designers and worked from that perspective, and then using that in a different way to tackle some different issues that we're dealing with in the built environment. And for me, it's been a question of how to have more impact, and I felt that I could have impact in in design. And I think that that's yeah. We need the great designers for sure. But personally, I I felt that I could use, yeah, some of my communication skills, some of my strategy skills, my my relationship building skills, that would be a better use in a way of my skill set to address the challenges that we have in the built environment and to create impact there. So that's that's the space that I'm working in now. And, of course, how is in many different ways.

B I I do, you know, public speaking or or workshops. I'll be doing some for pride month about, you know, how to create inclusive and queer inclusive spaces and places, but also through teaching or through content creation. And, yeah, using these different skills, working in different ways. But, yeah, I think soon, I'll have an announcement about exactly what I'll be doing, but for now, it's not quite finalized. So

A Well, we might have to circle back after that to have a little bit more solidified. But I do I mean, I kind of appreciate all these different spaces that you're operating in because, you know, there's so much like, I think you see that there's so much change that needs to happen. And it's kind of hard to commit yourself to just one thing. Speaking is one thing, being a part of an organization is one thing, Getting you know, sharing everything that you do on LinkedIn is is another thing, and it's just different modes in medias to get the word out there, which is and and it's not dissimilar from, like, the portfolio careers that I hear a lot of individuals, at least in the tech side talking about. You know, how are the very like, I you've identified a passion. What are the multimodes that you can kind of utilize to make the greatest impact now that you know kind of firmly where where you wanna go with it.

B Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think I've been very much influenced or or inspired by the tech industry. My wife is in tech, and I think just seeing her career and all the things that she's, like, been been working on has been, yeah, a a big part also of my own journey because I think it was very there was a lot of contrast, let's say, with, like, the world old profession that I was in that, you know, didn't seem quite to sync up with my, you know, multicultural or millennial seeking mindset. And then there was this, you know, new industry where things were moving super fast. They were harnessing new new technologies, new ways of working. And I was just like, wow.

B There is this other world also where things are completely opposite. And I was living a bit vicariously through her work experiences. She was at a SaaS, company. And just, yeah, how it was just so fast paced, the adaptive work models, the iterative products that they would do. I was really, really, really fascinated by it. And at the time, I mean, like, it was just booming completely, and, you know, companies are growing exponentially. Like, it's just so different, I think, than than the architecture profession. But I feel like there's things to to bring in from there.

B And, I mean, I know that that you think the same way also having worked at Slack and having been in the thick of it all. But, yeah, there's so much to to borrow. And I feel that I like to say kind of head to the edges to to these parts where you're in between 2 profession. Like, I feel that that's where you can really learn the most, and that's where you can get the most, That's where innovation happens, actually. That's where the disruption can happen, when you're just on the border of 2 things, and they come together in really new and innovative ways. And things that are normal in one sector just brought into another sector can completely just overthrow everything. So it also can just be borrowed ideas. It doesn't have to be in, like, quote, unquote, so novel in a way, but the application in a new place is what makes it, yeah, what makes it really interesting.

B So, yeah, I think I've always been super fascinated by by the tech industry and and, yeah, how that can influence our our work or, you know, architecture practice, I guess, also beyond the traditional things or when people might talk about, you know, BIM or something. But I think also in in how, the how they do things or how they think, how they're quick on their feet. I know that software is easier to to change than, you know, hardware, like buildings. I get, But I think there's something to to to learn from from there.

A No, I mean, well, of course, I agree with you 100% of like, with everything that you just said. So one of the things that Janine and I struggled with looking at the history of the podcasts that we've recorded and trying to identify like, where, where is the like, where is the thing that we need to focus on? Like, what is that one thing that we need to focus on within the industry to move it forward? Like, like I said, it's a matrix, right? Like, there's like, I don't know if there's like, one thing that's going to all of a sudden, like spin us off in, in the right direction. There's like a lot of, there's a lot of actually pretty I wanna say there's a lot of little things, but I feel like there's actually a lot of pretty big things that we need to fix to move it forward. So I kinda wanna pose that question to you now. You know, where where do you because you you mentioned at the top of the conversation, and I don't disagree with you about kind of the elitism and exclusivity when it comes to be becoming an architect. And there's a whole nother conversation about the the architecture we've created, and the communities separately, or inclusive of that conversation. But where do you think our profession, our industry needs the most change right now or needs the most support?

B Yeah. I think that's that's a huge question. Right? I think maybe so I think one of the big things is how fragmented our, like, the building sector and and the real estate sector and construction. Like, it's very fragmented and very siloed, and and there's a lot of, you know, different players who don't necessarily understand each other or find it hard to work together even though, I mean, that's what we, in the end, have to do. And I think that that's a big a big part of the struggle, just how how broken up everything is and how siloed it is. And so even within the waves of change that we're seeing, sometimes they are also very siloed. So it's, you know, thinking of equity or social change and that being completely separate to environmental action or then completely separate to technology integration. Sometimes these things are are still sort of seen as completely separate things, and we need much, like, a much more holistic approach to things.

B So we need to really collaborate together and start to see the value in in one approach and how it helps another, etcetera. And that in the end, actually, they don't work if you don't tackle these different pillars. So, yeah, that's quite a broad thing to say. Yeah. It's got it doesn't necessarily tell you what to do specifically as an individual, but I think it's true that that, yeah, we need to start to see the connections between things and be translators sometimes between one thing and another or one part of the sector or one part of the value chain or one innovative approach or or angle. And then when we start making those connections, yeah, I think that then real more sustainable, and durable change can can come about. So, yeah, about coming together. And and for me, that's kind of the idea with activism, making it much more inclusive, much more broad, much more about the fact that we're all in this together, and we're all actually working on these things just in different ways.

B And if we can see that, that we're working on the same problem and not on many different problems, I think that that helps to come up with more integrated solutions. Right?

A Yeah. No. And it's it's interesting. Right? Your use of collaboration and integrative solutions. I feel like we often believe that one of our, our skills is collaboration, right? We always talk about how we bring communities together. But then there's this odd gatekeeping that happens kind of with like, on, on the non community side of things that we do to ourselves that prevent us from moving things forward.

B Yeah. I think we are a bit of an insular profession at times, which is a shame. I mean, and we, of course, are a service of the general public and society. So but I think, yeah, I think it's the traditional role of an architect as, you know, I think in in at least in Western society of this role of being this one person who's kind of all seeing and who says, you know, this is how we're going to do this, and everyone else just kind of does whatever. This one person has has decided. And, you know, they might be brilliant, but there's still this kind of elitist or feel. And I think even with the Pritzker, we're still kind of with that idea of of, you know, having this one figure or duo or trio or or or whatever. But even there, we celebrate, you know, individuals in a sense when we know that firms take collaboration, it takes full teams.

B And then beyond the firm, it takes full teams of of various types of stakeholders to to be able to create the buildings and the the impact that's created. So I think there's still that that aspect of of ego and of, yeah, the architect as as this sole one, you know, person.

A The the starchitect. Right?

B The yeah. Exactly. The starchitect kind of problem or or issue, if you wanna call it that way.

A I feel like we could we could go and do another deep dive just on that alone. But I do wanna kind of flip it to what then if we were to collaborate and come together, like what then because the architecture community, the architecture profession, architecture industry in a way is a microcosm of the things that we are creating and building and putting in the communities and all the things that need to be fixed within communities as Mhmm. As well. And you talk about sustainability and climate action, social equity, you know, is there one thing within that list that you think the architects have the greatest potential to affect sooner rather than later. I feel like we always say we want to affect all of it, but, you know, is there really an opportunity for us to to be a strategic partner and a voice and and move the needle on on any of those one things in particular?

B Yeah. So there's a lot a lot of things to tackle, and it's true that it can be hard to think of which one to tackle first. But maybe it's also just about different, I think, different architects and and different professionals tackling the issues in different ways, but all at the same time. I mean, I think one tangible thing that that we can all do, which I think still can be in in different ways, is to dismantle and and challenge the idea of of reference man being the center of all that we do. And I think that that has a big, if we do that, that that can really influence me, our environmental work, our social work, our yeah. All of the work that we we do. And so reference, Nadia, just to explain a bit who he is, He's, you know, the the standard or so called standard that we use to design and to as as the reference for everything that we create. And, he's 6 foot tall.

B He's a cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, upper middle class, white, you know, neuro normative men. Like, you know, really this supposed normal standard, And we've all been there. We've all used this bigger not necessarily called reference man, maybe modular man, truvian man, whatever way that we've used it, but we've all used this as the sort of way to start, to get started to make something neutral, to make something for all, even though it's far from, because it really just disregards women, children, elderly, LGBTQ plus people, neurodivergent people, people with disabilities, you know, people of color, and and most men as well. So it's very exclusive. It's it doesn't represent anyone. And I think that when we design for for this guy or when we think about this guy, we are creating something that is just not going to be able to address the challenges that we face today. And it's not only in, you know, in in about accessibility for wheelchair accessibility or something or so it's more than just doing sort of a bit more than that or or thinking a little bit beyond reference man because it's more about thinking how or or being more curious, opening your curiosity to how people really do use spaces. You know, how do just the fact that it us women, you know, you can't find public toilets when you're out or that where park benches are in the city has an effect on elderly people being able to, like, go out and go to the market, for example.

B But if they need places to rest on their way there, they might just stay at home and be isolated and not go out if they don't have those places to go, you know, or to sit down and take a rest on a hot summer day. It's small things, I mean, that you might not think about that really affect how open a built environment is to to everyone. And beyond that, it's our streets. It's the fact that reference man, you know, goes to work. He'd has his 9 to 5. He's he drives a car, of course. So just that, you know, the the concept of shared streets, the way that we know that, you know, gender disaggregated statistics show that men travel much more by car than women do who tend to use other modes of transport, biking, walking, public transport, but that's not necessarily taken into consideration in our mobility plans. And then another aspect with reference men, which leads more to the environmental part, is the fact that, yeah, well, reference man is a human being, and he's he's completely at odds with nature.

B You know? This this archetype is when we design for him, a lot of time, we're also not designing for the other living beings or and so I think it's about going from people centric to then life centric and thinking about the different critters, the different plants, the animals that also inhabit the world and that are an important part of of our ecosystems and of our cities, etcetera. And so ditching reference man is also thinking about them. So it's kind of I think it's it's maybe a tangible way of getting started because I think as a designer, if you think about, you know, 2 or even just one non reference man kind of identity and, you know, 2 native plants or 2 native, animals that you really focus on for a specific project, I think that you can come up with something that's really interesting and and that many other users will also find their way and and will be able to use in different ways. So starting there by by getting rid of that notion of that being somehow neutral or or a better way or the standard way of of getting started with things, I think, would help a lot in terms of what types of outcomes we can design and and, yeah, all the we will get a diverse and eclectic kind of city that starts to emerge if each designer takes on these different non reference men identities. So, yeah, I think that's a tangible way to kind of get started with these

A No. It's inter and it's interesting

B because

A I feel like I'm sure that's been top of mind for you this week because I feel like I just read recently on your LinkedIn posts, kind of you, you were touching on on reference man, too. So I appreciate and we'll make sure to link out to that specific post, too, in the show notes. It's so easy to get really, like, supportive and behind you for your enthusiastic voice, on all of the topics that we've been covering. But I kinda wanna go a little bit back into to your history and in what made you question all of this as a young architect in your master's thesis in in Paris, you know, is it what do you think about how you were raised or the cities that you have lived in over time has really driven your own personal perspective on all of these broader issues?

B Yeah. I think that's, it's always nice to kind of dive deeper into your, yeah, into your background and why you think the way that you think. Right? Well, I have quite, yeah, a bit of a nomadic childhood. I I lived in different cities in in Paris. I was born in Paris, and my parents are from Trinidad and Tobago. And I lived briefly in Trinidad when I was really small. And we moved to Brussels. We moved to the States, and then I went back to Paris for for, university and then moved to Amsterdam, and now I'm in Toronto.

B So I've spent a lot of a lot of movement. And I think that yeah. I think that it's had a profound, of course, impact on on the way that I see things and and my experience of architecture and my experience of the world around me. And, ultimately, I think it's it's the notion of not seeing, you know, one ultimate standard because I've been a part of so many different cultures. I'm I'm also bilingual. I speak French and English, and my parents were in languages. My mother was an interpreter, translator, and my dad a professor for languages. So even that, like, knowing that one thing in one language can be said in in one way, and then in another language can be said in a completely different way, or that notions in one language don't even exist in another.

B I think you kind of start to understand diversity and and the fact that things are are complex and that they are due to where you're from or your experience. I it creates a sense of empathy as well because you you understand that you are the way you are, thanks to your background and that other people are too. And so their their convictions, their way of seeing things is a product of that, and that that makes sense to me. And so then I feel like I'm much more empathetic also to things that I might not agree with, but I kind of understand it based on on, you know, the context. So I think that that that way of understanding that there is no one right way or there is no one, yeah, one standard because every place I've lived in has done some of the same things in completely different ways. And in each of those places, I'd say, no. This is this is what's normal. I'd be like, well, I mean, I know lots of places where they do something completely different, and it's normal for them too.

B So just knowing that, I think I think that link with reference men kind of realizing that it really doesn't make sense to have this supposed standard or this thing that is supposed to be yeah. That is just singular, but and that can be used for everything. I think, yeah, there was a clear dissonance there that I might not have been able to voice in that way at the time. But I think that that cultural awareness, that adaptability, that that empathy, that, yeah, problem solving of of dealing with different cultures and and different, yeah, ways of of interacting curiosity as well to to the different ways of doing things. And I think it's so enriching, and I try to bring that kind of global view or or or that way of having been brought up to sometimes things that are much more local and vice versa and try to learn from what's super local. Because for some things, yeah, I haven't had that experience of living, you know, 20, 30 years in one place and knowing that one place so, so well in that specific way. For me, it's it's, it's a different mix that I bring. So I try to, yeah, balance those and learn from from different experiences.

B And I think that that's really influenced my, yeah, my way of seeing things and of of of practicing artivism as well.

A Yeah. So my next question is, and it might be an a relatively easy one, is, you know, when when did your love for architecture kind of get overlaid on on top of that? And why out of all the degrees out there, given your background, you know, did you pursue architecture? Because I feel like there's so many different ways to impact all of the systems that you're you're talking about.

B Yeah. Definitely. I don't think that I knew that I wanted to do all the things that I'm interested in now before, or I may have known deep down, but it wasn't something that I, yeah, that I knew that well in a way or consciously. Let's put it that way. And I think maybe that's a bit in this idea of, you know, when you ask kids, like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And I think that we probably should stop asking kids that because, you know, what do you wanna be is really like, I wanna be an architect, and that's what it was for me. I I in the end, it's like choosing this one profession as opposed to choosing what sort of impact you wanna have or or what sort of, yeah, what sort of action do you wanna do in the world? Like, what what impact do you wanna have? I think it's it's nicer and much more broad, but can also lead then to you picking different ways of getting there. And in a way, for me, I guess, architecture at the beginning was the end. And I think it should be a means to an end, not not the end.

B You know, not like I'm I should just be an architect. But it was because I was when I was younger, I was my sister and I, we made this little, like, play town in our in our playroom, and we would be really resourceful getting things from, like, milk cartons and cereal boxes and cutting up things and making little homes. I mean, it was a full city functioning with a school, a train. There was public transport. I mean, it was really, like, very, very intense. And so my mom was like, hey, you know, this is, this is architecture. You know, you might wanna look into it. And she signed me up for a little a course at the local architecture institute in Brussels.

B And the the thing to do, like, the the thing for the course over that summer, it was, like, 1 week or so, was to make was to use cereal boxes and milk cartons and make homes. And I was like, oh, so you build what you already

A built. Yeah. Yeah.

B So I was like, oh, okay. Well, then, yeah, I wanna be an architect. And so that was kind of the beginning of I think I must have been 10 or 11. And from then on, I was like, I want to be an architect. And, yeah, it was just that was everything I wanted to do. So everything I did from there, you know, the courses I took in high school, the, you know, the schools I applied to, it was just that was the goal, and it was a very clear path. Then it was only when I actually became an architect.

A Yes. And then That's the next question. Right? When throughout that career path, was it clear to you that traditional practice was not the way? And, you know, I think the big question that I always guide is, how do you create the kind of a career that you've created in a space that most architects don't understand outside outside of our traditional roles?

B Yeah. I think it's it it's difficult because once you're in it and in architecture school, I mean, it's very clear what the path is. I mean, you're gonna be an architect. You, you know, depending on the country you're in, you'll have to go through different tests or different, yeah, processes to be able to be licensed or or registered within that country or state or or province, however it works, locally for you. And and that, usually, in school, the goal is that, you know, you wanna start your own firm because going back to that Starchitect idea, it's very much like to be successful in architecture, you have your own firm, you design your own buildings, and, yeah, that is the goal for, I think, a lot of people. And that's how at least I was taught that was what was shown as was the thing that you should be aiming for. And it's a bit strange because, first of all, the majority of people won't own their own practice, and and even lots of people who study architecture may not even design in that way of being sort of the conceptual designer. There's so many different parts of designing and making sure building is detailed all the way that it can actually function, you know, beyond the concept.

B So it's it's a bit strange that we really focus on this one aspect, which is important, but there's also a myriad of other things that are just as important to get, you know, good buildings off of paper and into reality.

A When did you come to your own realization that that path was not right for you? And I think the harder thing is than than, like, what was the path you took and the steps that you took to get to to where you are and kind of creating your own space?

B So, yeah, so there's so many different parts of the profession. But while I was studying, I think the my undergrad, because there was really this dissonance and this because it was very traditional, I thought, oh my gosh. I can't study anymore. I had to take a break, and I and I actually went and worked at an architecture firm. And working in the reality of the profession, I realized, oh, okay. I actually do like this this what we're doing. You know? I liked being on-site. I liked solving problems.

B It was I worked on some renovation projects where, you know, you were being called on-site. You had to run over there, and it'd be like, we just knocked this down. This is what's happening. What should we do? It was it was so exciting, and I realized, like, woah. Okay. So there is a place for me in this. And then I took I did a master's where I worked and studied. So it was a specific master's where I was really adamant about not going back to school full time because I didn't love just being so much in the theoretical space.

B I really liked the tangible aspects of the work that we do. And so that was also super important, because I was able to develop my own ideas about architecture and and what type of architect I wanted to be while practicing and being in contact with architects who were creating things, you know, being a part of creating actual buildings that would be built. And I think that that was a really important part of my journey. And so then in doing that, I started realizing that I was much more interested in the impact and on the issues that that we had to tackle more than some of the technical aspects of of the profession. And there was a lot of focus on that and needing to, you know, have worked a certain number of years, you know, before you could get certain opportunities within the within practice. And I I was somewhat impatient. I was like, no. I wanna get into those things now.

B And so I moved into business development and marketing and communications within the architecture profession because I felt that I would be able to get closer to working with the different stakeholders, at the beginning of projects and to be able to influence what was really what was in the brief, what was, you know, intended from the beginning. Because I had realized as a designer, sometimes we would get these we would get briefs, we would get things that we had to solve, but they were already somewhat flawed to begin with. And there was a lot of kind of complaining about it, And I thought, well, wouldn't it be good to be able to influence it before, you know, it comes down to the designer to actually get started on it? And so that's that's why I got into that space. And I think with time, I realized, yeah, I'm I'm not gonna be designing anymore. I'll be designing the briefs or or the connections or the practice much more than actually the the buildings themselves. And it was it was a hard shift, to be honest, a lot of loss of identity because I I was an architect, and the profession is not so inclusive to non designing architects. I think you must relate to that. So, yeah, it was a bit hard at the beginning, but I think that once I was able to just, yeah, let go, I guess, of a part of my identity or of an initial plan that I've had for myself and realized that there were other things out there, it was then exciting.

B And I think using LinkedIn and and voicing that and and and voicing my opinions about things and seeing that there was I could have really great conversations and meet like minded people, listening to podcasts, going to events. I started to realize that there was a lot more than what I had initially thought architecture could be. And I think that that was important to to to get community and to not feel alone in the struggle of of what, you know, what's one's identity and and to be authentic, you know, to be your authentic self and and feel that it might not be what you're supposed to be doing or or whatnot. So community, I think, was, was online or in real, like, both, I think, were helpful in that process for sure.

A At the top, before we started hitting record, we talked a little bit about how you're relatively new to motherhood too with 2 15 month old twins at home. Mhmm. How has motherhood changed your lens on everything that you're doing now?

B Yeah. It's one of those profound changes that right up to the moment before they're born, you're like, god. I don't know if it's really gonna change me, and then it really does. I mean, for the better. But I think for 1, it's I definitely feel a sense of wanting to contribute to a better future for them. I mean, I think it's very it becomes really personal. I mean, I've always been about this, but I think that having children, you really see it, that you, you know, I don't want to leave. I wanna do everything that I can to make sure that I, you know, creating a better place for them.

B Or or not creating a worse place, at least, you know, for them, in the future. So I think that's one. But also, yeah, maybe a small anecdote that I think was really eye opening was that so the kids were they were having trouble sleeping. I mean, it was it was crazy. You know, waking up, I don't know how many times a night, they were about up till about 8 months, and it was just we were so tired. You know, we're getting bottles. We're changing diapers at night, you know, rocking babies, you know, everything multiple times in the night, but it was it was a little much. And, of course, there's twins, so it was really crazy nights.

B And we were like, we need to we need to get them to sleep through the night. Like, I don't know how we're gonna do this, but we need to do it. And, basically, we did sleep training. And so we just we would let them cry, you know, 3 minutes, then you go in and, you know, just, you know, don't cry. You know? Don't pick them up, but you're just, you know, comforting them. Then 5 minutes, 10 minutes. And I I was, you know, I was reading about it. People were like, you know, my kids are now sleeping.

B How is this possible? Because I'm going from, like, you know, horrible nights to really them sleeping throughout the night. Like, I didn't really believe it, but I thought we'd try. And they cried a lot the first two nights. And and my wife and I, we were both crying as well because it was really horrible to just hear them crying like that. But after 2 nights, they slept through the night entirely. And I think it was impressive to see how we also played such a big role in what they were doing at night. So we were reinforcing the waking up and because through our actions of picking them up, of of feeding them, of doing so many things when they didn't necessarily need it, that's the pattern that we that we gave them. And I think it was really a big lesson in realizing that sometimes things that you think are external to you and are, you know, out of your control, that, actually, you are also a part of of making those things happen.

B And you might not realize it, but but, yeah, you are also facilitating that whatever it is that is is, you know, something that you're struggling with. And so I think it made me realize that, wow. Like, you can have so much power sometimes when you feel that you might not have any power at all and that, you know, they can't sleep through the night. It has nothing to do with me. But then I realized that, actually, we did have a big part. We played such a big role in them not sleeping through the night, even though you don't think so. So I think it's a nice lesson just in general to realize that, yeah, that sometimes, really, when we think things are out of our control, they're not necessarily, and we can be very much active parts of some of the challenges that we face. And I think in the built environment, it's the same.

B And as architects, we can be very much a part of the issues that we see, and we can say, well, I'm an architect. You know, I'm not commissioning the project, or I'm not doing this, so I don't have that agency perhaps to be able to make that change. But I think it's also about flipping flipping the way that you see things and realizing that you do have power, and you might not have all the power in the world. But I think if you change your your mindset, you change your way of dealing with the same problem, you can realize that you have a lot more agency and power than than you might think.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com /podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com slash community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.