Architecture, And: The Anti-Racist Hotdog

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're bringing back Wandaley Mitiani to spill the tea on what he's been up to since the last time we talked to him nearly 2 years ago. Wandle is an Obama leader, TEDx fellow, architectural designer, social entrepreneur, and the founder and CEO of the Ubuntu Design Group or UDG, the anti racist hot dog and the tea, a peer to peer inclusion rating platform. We'll find out how he does so much with only so many hours in a day, but dig more deeply into his two most recent endeavors, the anti racist hotdog, and the T. Hi, Wanda Lei.

A Welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you are joining us this morning, your afternoon, and for you to be willing to come back on practice disrupted round 2.

B I'm excited to be here. I've been waiting to come back, and it's been obviously beautiful to see your trajectory and growth since the beginning of this platform. I think I was I was here very early. So happy happy to see the growth of Practice Disruptive.

A Now I appreciate that. So you're not ominous, but I I think you are out there talking a lot more than I would say a lot of our guests. Is there any kind of icebreaker or a tidbit or something you can share that might inform in a new way the conversation that we're about to have?

B Yeah. So in 2021 October, I moved to New York to to form the anti racist hot dog there. I'll tell you about that story a little bit more as we go in.

A So definitely get into that. Mhmm.

B I'll definitely get into that. But a big part of why I wanted to go to New York was also to, like, launch my stand up career as well.

A So I had no idea.

B I was out there doing stand up, the entire house, and doing architecture with the design group. Every couple of years, I pick up a a passion of mine that's maybe has been in the back burner because as you as you can realize, there's a lot that I do. So I finally like it because I I'll focus on this right now. And over the past 3 years, it's been stand up. And, now I just bought a DJ booth, so that's next. I'll be, like, playing house music. But yeah. So I always do crazy things like that.

A Well, so if you are getting into DJing, then does the stand up go away then? Like, you're like, I've been there, done that, tried it, experienced it?

B Yeah. I mean, I do only have 24 hours. Right? So

A Yeah. No. I I I get it. I'm just, like, wondering. I know we need to get to why I brought you on, but I'm just so curious now.

B No. I I it's it doesn't go away. It's, it's a big part of who I am. It's just not the focus anymore.

C If you're not, like, Gabe,

B I I get a chance. I'll do it. But I think what stand up has done, which is really cool, is because now I had to be intentionally funny and craft my story in terms of it has enhanced my public speaking to be a lot more entertaining than the most part. Yeah. Absolutely. And also just like relationally when I'm talking to to folks, it's just like there's so much intelligence and insights that comes with crafting how you tell a story with comedy. That it's it answers how you are conversational. So I'm really grateful for that.

B And I've got to open for a a Netflix comedian

C at the height of this whole 3 years thing. So I thought that was them.

A That is amazing. So last time you talked, I believe you were coming off of or just ramping up on being an Obama Foundation leader. You were leading and you're still doing work with the Avantu architecture design program

B Yes.

A That you founded. Can you update us on where you are today and what has evolved since the last time you were on the show?

B Yes. Yes. I think I just got into the Obama Foundation program as an Obama leader. That's ended up being 2 years versus 1 because of COVID. And then, I guess, I'm an alumni and still a member of the Obama Foundation community right now. I've also been a vendor, and I still work really close with the Obama Foundation, which has been amazing. I had started I started an architecture firm called Ubuntu Design Group when I was in college, which focuses on using architecture for the other 99% that don't afford architects. So to design dignified, affordable housing, addressing apartheid injustices through design.

B So that's still going. And then I think when I came into a show with created a spin off called the Open to Architecture from abroad program where we're bringing students from around the world to come down to Durban to learn about African architecture and actively design and build a home for a family that was, negatively affected by our project. So that's 2 day. Updates on that.

A And that that clearly wasn't enough for you because you've you've you've you've added more to your 24 hour day. So yes.

B I am on the journey of finding myself. Okay?

A You don't need to justify it. I you know, I gave I that comment was meant to say you're already doing incredible things, and yet you continue to pile on your own plate.

C I need a therapist is what I'm saying.

B Yeah. So those things are cool and are still cool. I think the update that happened since then is that we filed

C to be a school with

B the Ubuntu Architecture Summer Abroad. So we are officially now. So we got I

A didn't know that. That is an amazing update. Yeah.

B Yeah. It took a little bit of minute with, like, lawyers and all that stuff. So we're not we're we're at full school, and we should be opening up our program sometime in the fall and next summer to some get gearing back up. So so we've just been working on the legal stuff since then. And then Ubuntu Design Group, the architecture firm, we're really excited. I'm back in South Africa. We're kinda start up that's leverages AI and our human capital to make design accessible. Because, you know, when you think about architecture with capital a, I think it's first was introduced in relation to God.

B Right? So it's just like he drills these well, if you take take it back to your whole type of graves, which again still communicating to God, and then cathedrals, etcetera, etcetera. The the history of the the church is the history of architecture in many ways. And then it's became rich people. That's the progression. God, rich people, maybe others. Right? And quite frankly, it's still like that. And a big part of it is just like architecture 1 is an expensive degree. And even though architects are underpaid and overworked, peep they're still inaccessible in price to the average person.

B So with the coming out of AI, we're like, okay. How can we then cut down the number of hours these architects have to work on these projects and still provide dignified design services for low income communities. So we're working on a start up that's that's doing that. It's called Ubuntu Design Group. People can check it out.

A Just as a reminder to myself, we just had on a podcast a few episodes ago, the founders of the Built Environment Features Council. And they actually had a there was a good a good conversation. I wish we could expand upon that about exactly what you just said, but I'd love to connect you with them.

B I would love that. I would love that. Yeah. So that's the updates on that. I'm not sure if I should talk about what I've done since

A then. Yeah. No. I think I mean, this that's what this is. Yeah. Let's talk about all the things you've added onto your plate. I actually that was a welcome, an unexpected welcome and surprise to see how much the work you've done down in South Africa continues to grow. So I I'm excited for you there.

A But I'm also excited for you with the work that you're doing around the anti racist hotdog and grind tea, and how you those conversations have are now spreading beyond even just the AEC industry.

B 100%. No. Thank you very much. And I think I wanna preface this for any other architects or maybe folks who are still in college or young cats listening to us by saying everything that I do within architecture I didn't choose to be an architect so that I could be the archingles or a j and do skyscrapers and other stuff. I could care less. I chose to do architecture as a vehicle to solve a very real problem that I grew up with, which was the lack of dignified housing because of racial injustice systems such as apartheid. So this is always a really good preface because when people see you, I guess, on the front lines and talking about architecture and stuff like that, it's very easy to mistaken you for the other guys. I just wish it for doing amazing work and can't take away from them.

B But I'm here to revolutionize architecture for the 99%. For the one yeah. For the 99% that does not does not fold it. So that's 1. And then number 2, architecture is not my identity. It is a thing that I do. It's a tool amongst other tools. Right? And I say this very importantly because I think architecture school can feel like a cult that's indoctrinates you into this philosophy that architecture is who you are, and that's your identity.

B And if you do anything else, you have forsaken your calling, who you are except

A I mean, I get that. I completely get that.

B And you feel guilty. You know what

C I mean? It seems like you just

A I know.

B Or something. You know? It's

C it's very weird. But I

B want to remind everyone who's listening to this. That's you do architecture and architecture doesn't do you. So that's a very important point.

A And a very important mindset, I think, to be operating from. Right?

B 100%. 100%. So this is actually a good segue into what I've been doing then. So in 2021, I was walking. This is get this is gonna be an amazing story. 3221, I was it was, like, October 20. I think it's Saturday around 18. I wanted to grab dinner.

B There's a new problem at extension that just got built in Durban, and I wanted to be one of the first to check it out so that I can tell my home is, like, yo, this is a new spot. So I go there, and when I walk in now my new derby is, like, I don't know, maybe 92% black and part Indian and then part white, mostly of British descent. I walk into the prominent. Right? So it's like, think of a prominent that's elevated, and then underneath it, it's restaurants that's directly open up to the beach. Right? So I went to a restaurant that's opening to the beach. As I walk into this new strip, I only see white people. So I'm like, okay. Cool.

B Maybe my people haven't figured out that there's this new joint. Okay. I could see Columbus. So I walk in, and as soon as I walk in, some white dude with a ponytail said, hey. You can't eat here. And I was like, yo.

A Oh, no.

B I was taking the back. I said, what do you mean I can't eat here? He's like, oh, are you a member? So you already assume that I'm not a member. Which rightfully so I wasn't a member. I was like, are you a member? I was like, no. I'm not a member. I didn't know you have to be a member to to to have dinner here. He's like, oh, sorry. This is membership only.

B This is the club. And then I was like, okay. Cool. Can I have a day pass? He's like, oh, sorry. There are no day passes. Which upon further investigation, there are day pass. They just went day passes for people like me. And then I was like, now I'm starting to get visibly angry.

B Like, yo. Am I like is this exactly what I think is happening? So I was like, okay. Can I join the membership right now? I wanna join the club. And he's like, oh, no. To join the club, you need to email this person who has to do this and this and this and this and that. And I was like, and I remember telling him, like, oh, you're messing with the wrong one. But you know what? Good luck. So I left.

B I went and studied those guys websites for a good 2 days. Read everything they've ever said. So, of course, they've got a all whiteboard. And to be a member, which is very fascinating. To be a member, you need to fill in your address, put in your photo, have 2 families from two elements of the club, like the scuba diving club and the snorkeling club to cosign you. Right? And then Which

A and they're, of course, all white because yes.

B They're all white. I don't know any black guy who snorkels. Not just in Durban, around the world. You know what I mean? And if you're listening to this and you're black and you snorkel, hit me up, man. I need to learn So that's I can join that club. But I don't know you yet. So there's that. And then here's what's funny about this criteria.

B The criteria is already it profiles you, where you're from, what's your through your name, your photo, and through these 2 white families that needs to cosign for you. And then as if that's not enough, and then you say it says a committee will sit down based off their opinion and decide whether or not you get it. You know what that means? It means that that criteria actually doesn't matter. Yes.

A All they need is your picture

B is what

A you're saying.

C And all my committee of this racist club will sit down and then divide by

B the so what ends up happening is that all black people go to the waiting list and all white people make up the club, which ends shapes the demographics. And then when you ask for the demographics of the club, they're like, oh, we do not record demographics conveniently. Right? And I was like, man, here's more context. This club is in a section of the beach that's only 30 years ago, which is when I was born, when apartheid was ending. I was born 3 months before it's ended. I was born in January. Mandela became president in April 27th. So he just like, last week, we're celebrating Freedom's Day.

B So 30 years ago, that was a white only club. Right? So I thought to myself, like, okay. How do I tried to talk to the city, and no one was actually taking any action. I was like, okay. How do I respond as an architect, as who I am, etcetera? What are the three things that make up who I am? Right? So at the time, I was doing the comedy thing. So there's humor, there's house music, which I've always loved. House music, which started in Chicago, but it's big in Durban right now. And then there's food.

B Right? So I was like, when you look at the protest, because we've just come out of Black Lives Matter. When you when you protest traditionally and you march and you shout and you post those, etcetera, you lose a day of work. You may lose your life, like in the Carl Raton house case. And often after a week, it's forgotten about the people move on. I wanted to reinvent what a protest is in a way that gives back to the victim rather than takes away. But also in a way that is fun. I think this is a very important thing. If you wanna protest, you're gonna do something to bring up a change.

B I suggest you make it also an inside joke for self so that you enjoy the process. So I formed the anti racist hot dog, and it's a pop up restaurant. And I put it physically on top of the promenade where the racist restaurant is. So on top of the racist restaurant, I brought in my friends or house music DJs who did the soundtrack for Black Panther. So it was house music, hot dogs, and dialogue and race. So what this did was it didn't just only get the message out as a protest would do. It's also created an alternative for folks that look like me and other folks to be able to have access to food within their own community. It's ended up bringing people of different races, age groups.

B Lot of people came through, and we ended up doing it once a month and called it the anti racist hot dog party. And for the first time, I was part of a conversation with folks within my city about what does a post apartheid, post colonial city ought to look like within a physical space that was historically designed to segregate. Right? And that was such a special moment. It started to have an impact. President Obama tweeted about it. I hopped on a call with my friend in New York and I thought, how can we take this methodology to the spaces where we spend most of our time, which is our workplaces and our schools. And I think what was effective about the anti racist hard dog approach was that it was a nonconfrontational conversation that was happening across racial lines. It's like think about being at a bar or party in New York over beer.

B That's when people are more likely to actually have the real conversations, vessels in a boardroom, and They are supposed to present themselves in a particular way. Right? So from there, we've sort of evolved the entire ASR doc into this diversity, equity, and inclusion consultancy where we go to architecture firms, you know, companies such as Deloitte or Power Foundation, etcetera. And we help them bridge relationship across different. Because, fundamentally, we may we may disagree on everything in the world, but the one thing we agree on and enjoy altogether is food. And that's why we created the anti racism around food, house music, and then the dialogue and race and inclusion and how we can all be able to realize that we're more alike than we are different.

A That's an amazing evolution. One, because you found yourself in a new position within your own community with a voice that you didn't have before. But then to help me understand how you repackage what is essentially an amazing weekly party that if I didn't have kids and were younger, probably make a regular appearance at into these buttoned up kind of workplaces. What does that interaction look like?

C Like, yeah.

A Because, you know, because I was on the I was on the employee experience team at Salesforce when I last left. And, you know, just just putting out food and music, it it doesn't do it. Let alone bring along the depth of conversation that you're talking about. So, yeah, tell me what that looks like when you have one of these events now.

B Yeah. You know, this is interesting because we work with so many different organizations. I think I was in Dublin with the head of IV. Oh, wow. Right? And I was, like, the keynote speaker for Inclusive Education Amongst Educators. And I remember standing, like, there was, like, I don't know, like, a 1000 people at this event at the Dublin Convention Center. And I was about to get brought up with one of the officials. Like, oh, the next guest is one of them, the founder of the anti racist.

B And I start to die laughing. And I still love every time people

C I was like, all these important people. Right? Saying You're

A getting them to say hot racist hotdog. Yes.

C Obama has anti racist hot dog cards. And the whole foundation bought the shirts and everything. And so it's just like, to get the whole world to say anti racist hotdog is already a win.

B But again Yeah. It's Yeah. Anti racist hotdog is exist to help us remember our humanity. It is easy for us to wake up and suit up as a white person, an Asian person, a black person. And we act in character. And that's where our biases, our stereotypes, and discrimination all sort of come from. Right? You can hate a Mexican and still love Taco Tuesday. The best hot dogs are made with diverse ingredients.

B Imagine if the hot dog was just a white bun. Right? And often, the food that we hold so dear as our cultural food are food often made by ingredients from other cultures. Often the cultures that we may hate or grow up to have contempt towards. So the premise of our work centers around this idea is that, like, if we can get it right with food, this is, like, the base point, then we can get it right with our cultures. So when I add spices, when I eat a taco, does that make me less Zulu? Does that make me less Irish? Now why is it that's then when a black person is introduced to the board, you feel threatened? Why is it that that's when women are added to leadership, you feel threatened? How is it different to you? When you eat that taco, it enhances your palate. It doesn't take away from your cultural identity. Right? So when you have these people of diverse groups and diverse context coming into your board, coming into your workplace, coming into your clientele, it only serves to enhance you as an architect. It enhance your company, your growth, etcetera.

B So that's the philosophy that the entire ASR does. And, yes, we do come into your workplace, and we actually throw a real party with house music, with hot dogs. And we have something called the anti racist hot dog conversation cards that you can use as part of your Monday meeting icebreakers. Because we believe that culture isn't something that happens because you brought 1 leader during a black history month event. But culture happens every day. And how do we start changing these things? Yeah.

A No. I hear you. I actually I really like that metaphor because I do a lot of work in a lot of associations and organizations. And the pushback is because it's become this conversation about equity and diversity and inclusion has become, has such political roots. Right? But in today's context, I feel like I've been looking for a way to almost depoliticize it so more people accept the reality of what it brings. Sure. If that makes sense.

B Sure.

A So that relationship to food and how you just relate that to the ingredients. I love that analogy. I don't know what else to say other than that's an incredible analogy to make.

C Yeah. I think you're making a good point, but we need to

B we need to look beyond the point. Right? Elon Musk, a white South African who grew up and benefited from apartheid, came out on Twitter and said, DUI is racist. People are up in arms, supporting him, blah blah blah. For me, I wouldn't expect anything different. But word. Right? And then all of, like, the politics I guess what I'm saying is that, like, the political wrapping of the AI or maybe the political ostracization of the AI is intentional.

C Mhmm.

B And it's being used as a tool to distract people from the fact that our world is built on discrimination. And the foundations of it are very discriminatory, and those things need to change. And that doesn't serve anyone. Right? And I think Elon Musk coming out and all these other top people really attacking DI, taking books away from schools, etcetera, and stuff like that, shows that we're actually starting to make progress. That's we're actually starting to have an impact. Right? That's the people who are actually benefiting from segregation started seeing losses. And as a result, they've created concerted efforts to campaign against inclusion, which when you actually think about it, just read fundamentally. Talking of against inclusion is dumb.

B Like, it just doesn't make any sense. Right? So I think it's important for us to uncover the layers, uncover the lies into the real truth and meaning of, like, we are better together than we are against each other. And that's what we're standing for. Elon Musk will obviously advocate for what benefits him and what has historically benefited him, But I'm not Elon Musk.

A No. You're definitely not Elon Musk. I wouldn't want you to be an

B No. Yeah. I don't want to be either. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to his money and everything, but thank you.

A We could definitely dive so much deeper into the anti racist hotdog and that work. But that's you didn't stop there. You said that's also not enough. And so now you have grind tea as well. Tell us a little bit about grind tea. And if you have I want now I'm like, do you have an equally amazing origin story too?

B With grindt? Grantee is the son, daughter, they, them of the anti racist heart. Okay. Gotta be inclusive. So we started going to these different companies, firms, everything, and and doing these DI strategies and working with them. And it's just it's just been so beautiful. And I think one of the coolest thing that we've seen is like, we have a 100% return rate. Like, everywhere we've got, we've been asked to come back. So shout out to all these people.

B But I think the more we went, we will talk to CEOs. They're like, yeah. We can see there's a problem, but we don't know how to address it or what the exact problem is. We can't quite pinpoint it what we know there's a cultural problem. And we'll talk to the employees. They're like, yeah, probably. We're scared to lose our jobs, so we don't know how to report this. And I was like, oh.

B Right? So it's like, we can keep coming and pumping medicine, or we can prevent this from happening in the first place. Right? And that's what guarantee is. It's a peer to peer rating platforms where employees rate how inclusive or not their workplace is. They rate about their experiences across about 6 or 7 key indicators. We worked with some Harvard social psychologists in Columbia to study what causes high turnover amongst women and people of color. And things like maternity leave came up, pet growth, authentic salve, etcetera. So what this does is that a a recent graduate or a person with in between jobs, before they apply to Gensler, they can look at the score of Gensler on grind t. Right? And but it's not just, like, glass door where it's 5 out of 10 d I.

B What does that actually mean? Right? So you go and look at, like, okay. This is the their maternity leave policy. Here's what's women of my specific demographic think of it. Path to growth, here's how the path of growth is, the graph for black women, for black men, for Asians, etcetera. So it's data is only as relevant as it is to you, because I could look at Netflix, and it's 8 out of 10. And then turns out they just have 80 percent white people. Right? But to guarantee, you can filter the ratings based on your specific demographic so that you can see how you will be treated. And that helps you make an informed decision on where to go.

B It helps the the CEOs and the leadership know exactly where their issues are as well, but it also helps them reduce turnover. It it helps you to also not constantly be in between job and have 3 months here, 4 months here, because that ends up looking bad on you as the employee seeking work. So that's what the drop guarantee is. A platform that helps us make us A platform that helps us make informed decisions about our next workplace.

A Which is amazing and needed not only in the AEC industry, because we're obviously not the only ones suffering and struggling with everything that we've been talking about in this conversation. So the interesting thing to me is platforms like Glassdoor are heavily utilized in the tech industry. When I talk to architects, they're like, oh, you know, they feel like they're from too small of an organization to post that it doesn't actually anonymize their responses then. Yet I imagine, you know, the success of Grind Tea comes from actually more people posting their experiences. What is that balance and and how do you how do you encourage people to share?

B Yeah. I think that's that's a really good point. And I think partly it's a point that we're still trying to figure out how we encourage more people. But I think the more success stories come up, at least for us, from recent graduates saying, hey. You know, I chose this firm instead of this one because of grantee, and I'm actually really loving the culture. Right? I think the more we can share those stories and the more people realize, like, the impact platforms like this have. But also, like, look. I spent half the year in New York, and I go to the AIA New York events.

B Not to hate on those events, but a good 70% of those events are architects complaining about how women are not treatable, how people of color are not treated well, how they're underpaid, how I'm like, yo. Let's do something about it.

A And then that's the other thing. That's a very collegial event. Like, that's, like, the anti racist hot dog event. Right? With drink in hand where you're you feel free to say whatever you want to colleagues, but then to take that and actually document it somewhere. We're not ready to do that. But I totally get like, I literally we constantly complain about everything. And we say we're these problem solvers. And yet we have the hardest time solving our own problems with within the industry.

B Exactly. I wrote a whole article about how architects plan other people's lives, but we can't plan our own workplace experience. And that's why I created this grantee tool. Because think about it this way. I don't know anymore nor hate anyone against the shadow. I'll just keep using them as an example consistently. If we look at, let's say, Gensler. Right? And let's say Gensler is treating women well, and then h okay is not treating women well.

B Now even I, as a man

A Completely high sec hypothetical. I'm gonna, like, completely hypothetical. Yes.

B Especially if especially if HOK and Gensler sponsored this podcast. Very hypothetical. Even

A Company a company g and company h.

C Okay. Company g, treats women bad. Company h

B treats them good. So even I, as a man, looking at that rating, would I want to go to the company that's treats women bad, or would I wanna go to the company that's treats women good? Right? I wanna go there. Right? So what ends up happening is that company h ends up having all the top talent, and then company g struggles to recruit, and it starts hurting their pockets. Now they're incentivized to transform and be more inclusive. Because if there's anything we've learned, if there's no incentive for folks to change, they're not going to change.

A Yes. I completely I completely agree with you. I I think the crux here though is, and this is this is a fallacy of an older generation that, like, looks at things like Yelp and says, it's just a place where people can go and complain. Right? The success of these type of platforms are not purely based on their complainers. Right? I sort where I wanna go to Yelp by those that are, you know, 4.8 stars or DoorDash and higher. Right? So if you are having an amazing experience at these firms, that's also when you should be going to grind tea and saying, yes. This is absolutely why you like, why I want to bring other colleagues and why I want other amazing people to come and work here.

B What's interesting though, we've realized that 70% of our ratings were actually positive. So the people who are having a good experience are incentivized to actually speak up about their experience. But, also, it's it's kinda like business, though, in general. Right? As an architect, if I do a great job, I get referrals. Right? So if I'm treated well within the workplace, I'll be gladly go to and talk about how amazing my workplace is. And when people go to, like, college fairs and stuff like that, it's employees who are speaking from their own experience. And basically, this is like a college fair, but that is now spread digitally across the world.

A I love that. So one, if I am a company that is listening, if I'm a firm leader that's listening and says, you know, we need we need the anti racist hot dog to come to our organization. What does that look like? Do they just go to your website?

B Yes. If you want the anti dealer at antiracisthotdog.com.

A Amazing. And then if I am a worker bee or even a firm owner, where do I go to to talk about grind tea or to talk about my firm on grind tea?

B Yes. Yes. So you go to grind tea.com. I think one of the beautiful things about grindt is that, like, again, I think a lot of leaders do not know what to do to transform their organization. They know there's an issue with culture, but they don't know what specifically it is. Priority gives you a clear indicator where the challenges are, whether it's in maternity leave, whether it's in the path to growth, whether it's in your recruiting, etcetera. So I think it's a very useful tool for HR leaders, for marketing, and and just for CEOs. So grantee.com, you can go there.

B And we also allow for companies to create profiles within grantee and talk about sort of the efforts that they are making. So, you know, look. Data are data points as of today. And we know that changing culture takes time. So a company may not rate high in what I'm looking for. But if I see that they're already putting in the work in that, I can give them the benefits of the doubt and still go work there. Right? As I say as I said Mhmm. Grantee is not a shaming platform, but a a a platform to help build the AEC industry and just, like, workplaces in general to be more inclusive.

B Give everyone the tools they need.

A Why specifically grind tea?

B First of all, it's because clearly, I'm I'm fascinated with food. The anti Absolutely. I mean, think about after we had an anti, it's not that you gotta drink something. So I think tea works. But grind in sort of the colloquial means, like, work, like, the grind culture, work culture. Tea comes from the the idea of, like, spilling the tea.

C So it's grind tea. Yeah. That's what it is.

A What's next for you? I feel like we asked that last time, and I had no idea that this was next for you. Are you already seeing, like, a what's next? Are you just letting it continue to evolve?

B Look. I mean, I think I I spent most of my days working on the anti waste hotdog. I think it's our main love right now and guarantee. But I think what's next is, you know, as I'm in between Durban and New York, We're working on a really, really exciting start up on leveraging AI to design dignified housing for people, not just in South Africa, but around the world. Because just the idea of getting your first home built is so cumbersome. The architectural process is more cumbersome and irregular than literally anything else that exists. If you go to a doctor, you go to 1 doctor. And if they treat you, they check you.

B And then they will do an internal referral to another specialist and set up a date and you go there. When you go to an architect, they'll be like, oh, you you think I'm the only one you come to? Like, oh, that's so sweet. But here's what we're going to need. I'm going to need a structural engineer. I'm going to

C need business. You've never heard of these people. You don't know how

B to rate them. You don't know what words and you end up getting screwed. It takes longer, costs more, etcetera. So we're building a startup that streamline that process, and I'm really excited about it.

A What advice do you have? Because you're still so young in my head. I'm like, you're still so young in your career, And you've done so much. So what advice do you have for new grads who are listening, who are may want to start a company or want to be more entrepreneurial, and kind of follow in your footsteps, building out like, socially justice or socially relevant businesses. What advice do you have for them?

B I'm going to tell a story to help answer this question. And this story is about a man by the name Chancellor Jonathan Bennett, popularly known as Chance the Rapper.

A Can't wait.

B No. When Chance was in high school, he got ridiculed by his teachers for his aspiration to be a rapper. Also, unlike most rappers, Chance did not come from the hood or any tough environment. Chance came from a well off family in a good suburb of Chicago. His dad worked for Obama. And in high school, Chance met Obama, and he told him about his aspiration to be a rapper. And Obama said word. So So I guess Obama was supportive of that.

B And then Chance went on to release mixtapes called 10 Day Asset Rap, which became huge, and then coloring book. He won the 1st independent rap album of the year, which also he also won that same year at the Grammys, the best rap song. And he won the best newcomer. As an independent artist, ushered a whole new generation of artists who are now independent and who are not abused by record labels and really upended the very old and destructive industry. Why am I telling this story? So right now, people because of Chance's last album, they're saying he's washed. So that's another important point here. And he got asked on the Breakfast Club, which I'm in the cards. Like, people are saying you're washed.

B What do you think about that? And he said something very important. He said, when I was 15, I released my 2nd mixtape in high school. And you know what cats would say at high school? They say I was washed.

C I was like, bro, I was 15. And already there are

B people who think thought I was washed. So two things. There's what the world expects you to be, and then there's who you know yourself to be. Follow who you know yourself to be. That's not going to be an easy path, but that's the path that will be the most fulfilling. It will help you sleep well at night, and it's the path that's often remembered. Number 2, stick to the people who believe in your vision and who love you in spite of your last body of work, not because of your last body of work. So stick to the people like Obama who are going to affirm your dreams rather than project who they think they are.

B And sometimes our parents, they're projecting their own failures and us trying to make sure that you succeed. And sometimes the projection is out of love, but it's important to remember who you are and what you're building. And then I think number 3 and most important, throughout all my pivots and everything that I've built, including folks that I went to college with in different places. So many so many levels have people that said I watched myself.

C But I'm still here. Right?

B I think Andy Migno best says it when he says, critics are just artists who never made it. Do not listen to people who are not in the arena with you. Listen to the people in the arena with you. And last but not least, architecture doesn't do you. You do architecture.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of practice disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.