Architect, And: Construction BD Manager Laura Wake-Ramos

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're continuing our architecture and series with a guest who's making a significant impact beyond traditional practice, Laura Wake Ramos. Laura is a leader in project delivery, strategy and technology integration. As a business development manager with Mortenson, she's driving real estate development in the Washington DC Metro area, blending the roles of developer and builder in innovative ways.

A She's also led award winning projects, including a historic renovation in DC that won a national design build award in 2023. Laura's dedication extends beyond her professional roles. She's a 2023, 2024 chair of the AIA project delivery knowledge community and serves as an at large representative on the AIA strategic council. A licensed architect and certified design build professional, Laura is also passionate about mentoring, volunteering with the ACE Mentorship Program, Arcatina and the Design Build Institute of America. In this episode, we'll explore Laura's journey, her approach to integrating technology and project delivery, and her commitment to giving back to the community. Her story is a powerful example of how architects can leverage their skills to drive innovation and make a broader impact. So let's dive in and hear from Laura on her remarkable path in architecture and beyond. Hi, Laura.

A Welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you.

B Thanks for having me, Evelyn. I'm happy to be here. And it just seems like yesterday, we were at a I 24 in DC.

A Yeah. Absolutely. So we've just ran through your bio, but we always ask a bit of an icebreaker at the top of each episode. So is there anything that isn't in your formal bio that could either add to the conversation or just provide extra insight into who you are and what you are passionate about?

B Sure. Well, this past year, I was training for my first half Ironman, and I completed the race in June in Cambridge, Maryland. So that was quite an experience. It was a a 6 month training plan, but even before the 6 months of training, it was about 2 years of building up endurance training to get to race day. So I've been, you know, kind of, in and out of of life, you know, through the the training of managing work life and training life and just regular social life. But the half Ironman race was just, like, such an incredible community and experience, and I am totally hooked.

A Does that mean you're going to sign up for another one or even do a full?

B So, the kind of the the big dream is to do a full one day. So my my training buddy and I, we are talking about it. And then, you know, it would probably be a couple years away just from the training time and just building up to that point. And so we're talking about perhaps doing an international race, just making a full on experience and just, you know, to travel and to to do the race experience. So that's that's, like, our big dream that we're building up to.

A That would be amazing. I always like, if I were to ever take on such an athletic endeavor, which I'm not an endurance athlete, so I don't think it's ever on my radar to do an Ironman. But I am always like, I would do the one in Hawaii or something like that.

B Oh, yeah.

A Just because then it's you know, the landscape's beautiful the entire day that you're out there.

B Oh, yeah. There's a lot of, like, people that get into trail running or or these types of events, and it's just all about the adventure and the experience. And that's what I love about these events. It's just, you know, 50 miles, a 100 miles to enjoy a new landscape and somewhere new, somewhere you're seeing for the first time is just really fun.

A Yeah. And just to bring this back to architecture, is there anything relative to the architecture mindset kind of endurance or, you know, our our work ethic that you think actually helped supported you at all as you took on this half Ironman endeavor?

B Yeah. I think kind of similar in the running community that a lot of people, they talk about training for a race is a journey, and you're gonna have your ups and downs, and there's gonna be some days where you're not a 100%. And, you know, if you gave it 80%, that's good enough. And, you know, the the moment of the race is just so small compared to just all the time you put into training. And I think for me, like, the experience of training for those races is a metaphor of life. You know, there's some moments that are so exciting and euphoric, and they're just so fleeting and short. And, you know, it's all about the journey and experience along the way, and every day is a new run. So just I kinda apply that into to work life as well.

A So one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on practice disrupted is we have this whole series called and and those that have pursued alternative paths outside of just working in a traditional firm. So you're the business development manager at Mortenson, but let's go all the way back to maybe even school or where you think is, like, a good comfortable jumping off place of where you decided to veer off away from just a traditional firm.

B Yeah. So I'd say my my journey started when I was in architecture school, and I got involved in a club called Design Build Institute of America, which is a national organization, and they have student chapters. And what intrigued me about this club was in the name at first was design and build together in the name. It's like, oh, that's that sounds exciting. That sounds like professional practice, designing, and constructing. I wanna try it. And so as I got involved in the chapter in the organization, I got to know various construction management students and what they did on their internships during the summer. And then I was also able to go to the national conferences of DVIA where I can meet professionals working in the industry and get to know what they do in different career paths.

B And I've met several architects that were design build managers for construction companies, and that got me curious into that type of career path and what that experience was. And so that was, like, the first time where, like, I I think, you know, my eyes were wide open to more possibilities of what careers could look like. And then by my 5th year, I had already interned in 3 internships in architecture firm in Connecticut where I grew up. And, you know, this group were just fantastic individuals. They taught me so much from design and projects or getting on the job site for active construction. And so I came to a place where I was thinking about, you know, in my 5th year, where do I wanna work? And instead of, like, thinking about work, I thought about what do I wanna learn and what am I curious about right now? And so I was thinking, like, well, I'm just really curious about construction. Like, what happens after design? What do, you know, happens beyond the drawings? And so the way I thought about it was like, well, if that's what I wanna learn, maybe I should try to get a job in it. And, you know, I'll, if I don't like it, I can always make a change.

B And so I went to the A and E Fair at Penn State. I met with various construction companies, and that is where I met Mortenson, my my current company, And I started in the Chicago office in 2015 where I was there for 2 years, and I was an on-site project engineer on health care and higher ed projects. And I also experimented in technology and construction, such as virtual building coordination and virtual reality. And so in that time, I learned that the company was opening a new office in Washington DC, and that really intrigued me because, well, 1, I was looking for an opportunity to move back to the East Coast, and, 2, being part of a start up office sounded exciting because it sounded like an opportunity. I could wear a lot of hats and grow in my career. And so I relocated to DC in 2017 where I have, been here since, and I love the city, and I love the experience. When I got, you know, to see the growth of an office from our small temporary space to our permanent branded Mortenson space, so it's been a exciting journey so far.

A I wanted to back up a little bit and ask you maybe even why you became an architect and why so early in your career did this idea of the design and build seems so interesting to you. You know, I think other people just don't 1, they don't come to that realization as early as you did in your career. Or 2, even if they do, I don't think they they jump. And not to say that you jumped ship per se, but they they just don't make that career choice as early as you did. Can you walk us through what that was going inside your of your head or, you know, why you felt that determination after a few internships working in architecture firms?

B Sure. I think when I was, you know, kind of seeing through just through architecture school where we have, you know, the our studio projects where we're drawing, you know, the concept and, you know, we're with by hand or on a computer, and we're building the model. You know, it's just like I was thinking about what happens when you when you hand off your concept, when you hand off your idea. And just what what that means in the profession is, you know, in design, we have our models, we have our drawings that we handed off, and then it's built, you know, into a building with so many systems. And what you know, now when I look back on into it, and I just think about, like, the people and the systems and the teams and construction is still very manual. So that means, you know, every bit of a building is somebody with their hands, like, putting up a piece of wood, putting up a piece of drywall, and hammering it and and screw it in with their own hands. So I think that was, like, the curiosity of just seeing the full spectrum, you know, from the start of an idea, you know, with little napkin sketch all the way to, you know, a huge vertical building.

A You've mentioned that you interned your first few summers in a traditional firm. So did you just find that you didn't get access to that full spectrum from, you know, concept design to construction? Because there are some firms, I imagine. There's well, there are definitely some smaller design build firms out there, but what made you take the leap to work for a contractor as opposed to an architecture firm in the end?

B Yeah. I think part of it was to see the progress every day on the job site. Whereas, you know, some some projects where, you know, as architect, you may be only visiting the site once a week. And just I think what intrigued me about construction now and staying with it is just seeing the progress every day. And so, you know, just like some efforts might take, you know, weeks, you know, of meetings or of reviews and conversations and, you know, maybe some edits and some revising and just being able to kinda see the progress, like, all the way through, you know, for the day where where something is, like, erected and you're like, oh, wow. Like, that was I did that, and I saw every single day to make it happen.

A Is there anything that you think you miss having made that decision that you would have gotten working in a traditional firm?

B Yeah. I think through the design process and just being in a creative design team, I think, like, that element, you know, I still miss and just, like, being in that creative space. And and the way I see it in my role is I get to be a partner to architects. So when we're creating a vision, a design, I get to be alongside the architect and offer input when it comes to trade partner perspective, construction logistics, schedule, cost. I get to be a partner alongside the idea creation in order to to make it real. Right? Where that's is what excited me being on that design phase management side of the business is that I got to work alongside the architect in the process. So that's what kind of in my career where I it started as a on-site project engineer, and then it started shifting into preconstruction as a design phase manager, and now I'm even on the earlier side in the business development.

A Thank you for allowing me to take that little detour to to back up your decision making process as you went and grew through your career. So tell us what a business development manager does now at Mortenson.

B Sure. So a lot of, our work in business development, we're involved in a wide variety of conversations. So one type of effort is market research, and so we're uncovering important data that's gonna inform our business strategy. So that might be researching market reports, that might be doing research on active projects, that might be identifying key partners, you know, architecture and engineering companies that we should be connecting with. And then we take all this data, and then we synthesize it where it's like, okay. Of all the opportunities out there, where does it make sense to put our best effort, because there are limits to resources of people and time. So we start synthesizing that data to be more focused. And then we also have strategic conversations, and that's both internal and external.

B So that's one thing I found in business development is there's not only selling external to the company. There's a lot of internal selling and that you need to have leadership buy in. You need to have team buy in. So I have found myself in this role doing a lot of internal selling in addition to the external conversations. So, you know, for external conversations, that's, you know, having meetings with key trade partners, key design partners, and then internal meetings might be teams and just spreading excitement and just getting buy in for a potential opportunity.

A When I think about the role that architects want to play on a building even through CA, I feel like they wanna be the owner or the they wanna be the keeper of the owner client relationship. As a business development manager on the construction side of things, how much of that outreach are you doing direct to the client as opposed to direct to your design service partners as you mentioned? And how do you keep that that balance there?

B Yeah. So I think, you know so we're having conversations with both potential clients and with A and Es. And, you know, that the approach, at least for Mortensen, is that we wanna approach as a team, and so we're identifying a potential client, and we want to identify a potential A and E to approach that project as a team. And, you know, we're looking at past experience. We're looking at, you know, the project delivery model for the opportunity. Is it design build? Is it design bid build? Is the CM at risk? Does the design partner have the experience of those project delivery models so we can approach it as a team? And I think, you know, for for my particular approach, you know, with architects is a little unique because I am an architect, and so I can kinda come alongside them as as a partner in that way. And and so we be able to speak design and construction in the conversation is kind of the place where I I love to live and thrive. And so and I make that, you know, kind of clearing conversations with, you know, the architect and the design partner.

B It's like, yeah. Like, we're a team, and this is what you bring to the table, and we want you to, you know, create the ideas, and you're gonna be alongside us. So that's one thing I'd say is my approach is a little bit different because I am an architect, and I bring my architect alongside me in the process.

A And I don't know if you can actually answer this question, but do you have a preferred project delivery method as a GC?

B So in our DC office, we're interested in collaborative project deliveries. So that might be I think we prefer design build. We love design build. Also open to seeing that risk. Those types of collaborative models that bring the GC on earlier. So that way we can, you know, bring insight to a project, particularly when it comes to cost and schedule. So projects are just more challenged right now. There's a lot of, you know, economic headwinds, tailwinds that we can if we have a seat at the table early on, we can provide insight.

A Okay. So you talked about your different approach being an architect on the construction side. How is that received by architects? Is it received well, or is there any animosity terms of you being an architect who has stepped off the traditional path? You're obviously trying to work with them as a partner, but do they equally see you as a partner?

B Yeah. I think there's a a spectrum. It varies. You know, there are those have who have been open and curious of, like, oh, like, tell me about your journey on the construction side. That's different. That's interesting. How do you like it? And then then there's the other side of the spectrum that I feel like it's more questioning of, oh, well, how long did you work in practice? And it's like, oh, okay. So you, you know, I joined the construction side, you know, after graduating college.

B So and, you know, if my internships, if they don't count, then, you know, if you just look at my working years that I've only been on the construction side. And so there's there's kind of been a spectrum, but, you know, it's I stay focused on my community of support because there are many other alternative career architects out there, you know, that are doing really interesting work and having a really big impact in the profession, and I've kinda grown that network over time. And so even though I think that just makes our profession really interesting because there's just such a diverse spectrum of of business and and just, careers.

A So you mentioned, obviously, we met each other through the AIA, and I imagine you're so heavily involved in the DVIA, the Design and Build Institute of America. Are there other places that you go to find that network to help with that positive outlook on things?

B Yeah. I think, I've made various circles in AIA where I've I found, you know, that community and, you know, from a DC market level through the DC chapter, also through the knowledge communities. So I'm currently chair of the project delivery knowledge community that I've been a part of for about 5 years now, and that whole committee, you know, is primarily made up of alternative career architects. So we we're, like, our core team and support group and that we've been involved in the project delivery discussion for a long time. And I've also been involved in ACE mentoring program of America, and I you know, being a mentor, being a part of a team to excite high school students about the careers in architecture, engineering, construction, just kind of being in the space where I get to teach, I can teach both architecture and construction in that space has was like a really fun way for me to to give back in that way. I've also made some community circles through other volunteer opportunities, such as Argentina, which is a mentoring group to help elevate Latin women to licensure. And, you know, just having that that group, like, we're, you know, just always out supporting each other, you know, trying to connect and help each other, and whether that's people are looking for a new job opportunity or a new AI opportunity. It's just like this really special group of support.

B So just by being involved in these various organizations has created some really nice relationships and have found, you know, some of those alternative career architects by by just being involved in these various circles.

A The other interesting thing is, obviously, you could have pursued the path that you did without licensure, but you went and decided to go and get and finish your license. Can you talk a little bit about that and and why you did it?

B Yeah. That's a great question because that was something I made a decision on very early on in my career and particularly when I decided to pursue the construction path when I was in college. And so early on, when I was interviewing with companies, I was asking companies if they had licensed architects in their company so that they could be my supervisor so I can get my hours signed off. And what I learned from that experience is that it was a good indicator of culture in the company. You know, how how does the construction company view architects and the, you know, the value that could they could bring in the company. And so I kind of scratched off my list early on if the response was, like, I think we have some, but we don't I don't know for sure. And so when with with Mortenson, you know, as an indicator, they you know, the people I interviewed with was, like, oh, we definitely do, like, name person 123, and we can connect you with them. So that was that question, you know, early on in in that career path helped me just sort of, like, weed out companies that were the right culture fit in what I wanted to do.

B And, you know, even, you know, as I was working on my my exams because they're they're quite a commitment, you know, working a full time job and studying the exams after work, you know, of a long day on the job site. And what I learned from the experience is that I, you know, was learning as I was studying these exams, and what as I was studying the material, it was helping me do my day job better, you know, from a technical building standpoint, like, you know, studying contracts and and also, you know, studying details in in that kind of technical material. And and I decided that I wanted to do that early on so that, you know, I could complete it and it could possibly open doors later in my career. And so that's the advice that I give others as well as they're considering it is that it's not required for, you know, in the construction world. However, you're gonna learn you're gonna learn something from the experience and, you know, you will you will find a place where this is gonna have a a kind of a payback one day for for your career.

A So in addition to that advice, what other advice would you give architects either early in their career or mid career that are curious about alternative career paths that still align with the built environment?

B So I think, you know, you know, from the stories that we were told, like, early on in architecture school is that, you know, an architect is a a slow maturity profession. It we it's like fine wine. It gets better as we age, and we gain experience along the way. So, like, just like knowing that this is, like, a long lifelong journey of exploring design and the built environment, I think it just makes, you know, following your curiosity and just don't be afraid to take risks and and change. Just kind of follow follow what you wanna learn because it's gonna make exciting experiences that are just gonna build up over time. And so, like, even if you're not quite sure where it's going, you know, what the end is gonna look like, just kind of trust that process that you're learning and you're growing. And if you're following your intuition and curiosity, it's gonna lead you into that into that place where you'll where you'll thrive. And so I think that's that's kind of the advice is that, you know, maybe from the outside to some people, like, my career might look like a bunch of horizontal, you know, like, unfocused moves.

B However, you know, when you explain your story and it's like, oh, yeah. Like, I was following this, you know, curiosity, studying the bridge between design and construction, and now I'm studying the bridge between construction and development and integrated business models. And when you explain your story, then people say, like, oh, that makes sense. So just kinda stay focused in your your own vision is is my advice, you know, to other people considering alternative career paths.

A So we've always talked about people that have gone on and gotten MBAs, but you actually went back to school recently and finished your master of professional studies in real estate development. Can you tell me about your thought process in deciding that that is kind of the secondary degree that you wanted to go after as opposed to other degree programs?

B So when I was graduating from my undergrad in architecture, I I always had a curiosity of pursuing a master degree, but I didn't want to jump into it right away. I I kinda told myself, you know, give myself time to learn and experience and just kinda let the opportunity just unfold itself. And so I had been researching MBAs, you know, for a couple years after I graduated. And I, you know, was kind of having different conversations too with with some folks who had an MBA and just their decision and their path along that. I was also intrigued by maybe getting a master's in public policy or health administration. Just something kind of just different where I can synthesize, like, different knowledge together into the built environment. And ultimately, I started getting curious about integrated business models, and that's where I thought, like, well, like a MBA does make the best sense. But I was kind of reflecting on the experience where some people had told me is that, you know, MBA is a very general business experience, and you can get a specialization.

B But it just that kind of feedback made me think about like, well, you know, like I I think I'm always gonna be in the built environment. So that made me think about taking a more focused building industry path with which led me to real estate, which is, you know, the business case of buildings. And so when I was, like, researching masters in real estate development, and I was thinking about, like, well, your work experience is so valuable in, you know, this day and age. Like, I wanna continue working. Is there any program out there that has a flexible program that I could work and study at the same time? And the other perspective I got for those who pursued master's degrees is that your alumni network is really important. And so that's where I was, you know, started honing down to in my my filter. I was like, okay. Is there a flexible masters in real estate development that's located in Washington DC? Because this is the place I wanna build my career in network.

B And so, ultimately, that led me to the Georgetown program, which was a really cool experience because majority of the students are working professionals. And so the program was very understanding and flexible in that way, but also it was really cool to meet students that were just all across the spectrum of the real estate business. They were, you know, professionals who are working in design, professionals working in construction, or property management, or developments, even a couple individuals that were part of a family business. And so they were studying, you know, this program to help build their own family business. So just kinda meeting just a wide variety of people got me inspired to thinking about the vast opportunities that are in the real estate and building industry.

A You know, I always get the question, and I'd like to rephrase it for you. What is the one or it can be more than one thing that you learned out of that program that you actually wish or that would have helped you if you knew it or learned it while getting your b arc?

B Oh, that's a a great question. I think about that sometimes. I guess in in simplest terms, I think of real estate development as as a shark tank of of architecture where it's, you know, you have this concept, you have this design, you have this idea, and you need to talk about how you're gonna get it funded. And that's where I think the bridge between architecture and development lies is that the development world has the connections, you know, to the private equity, to the debt partners to get buildings funded. And so I think, you know, early on in architecture, I would have liked to learn more about the capital markets and how that works because I think it's understanding the economic trends would translate directly into running an architecture business, understanding, like, how those the economic cycles and why, you know, particular markets are lagging, you know, based on economic factors. Like, some of those, like, really important business insights, I think, would have been, you know, key to learn early on in architecture school as well as, market analytics. So how to, like, research key data that drive architecture and concept. So just particularly to to health care, like, understanding, like, what demographics, what market data would translate into a need for health care.

B And I think architects could really be empowered if they you know, just kind of being aware of how to access that information and how to synthesize that data.

A That's interesting that you say that because I've been doing a lot more just in my own personal study of what is going on in Fintech, because I feel like there's a lot of individuals out there outside of the architecture industry that's trying to figure out different mechanisms to get people who need homes, for instance, right, access to capital in order to do that. And I always tell the architects you should you should keep keep an eye on what's going on in Fintech. So it's just interesting to hear your response there. Having heard what you learned out of your real estate program, what is next for you beyond business development manager in terms of your own career growth? Where do your own career aspirations lie right now?

B Yeah. So right now, some of my career aspirations is that, you know, continuing to to be involved in AIA. I'm passionate about elevating the alternative career experience in AIA to bring awareness and also just for making the umbrella bigger and, you know, inviting allied professions into the conversation and to bring perspective and insight into the design space. And I think, you know, that's something is just my my kind of grassroots initiative is that, you know, connecting with, you know, designers, architects, if they're in construction or alternative career path and, you know, kind of encouraging them, you know, to to get involved. And, you know, there is a space for you in in AIA. Like, you have valuable insight into the conversation. And so that's where I I kind of am finding places to get involved to kinda be part of that conversation. So that has led me initially to the project delivery knowledge community.

B And now this year is my 1st year in strategic council. And with those work groups, you know, continuing to elevate the stories of alternative career architects and just encouraging to invite those perspectives into the space because I think that's where we have the most to learn. And, you know, those allied architects, like, they do wanna help if we when we invite them to sit sit at the table. So that's something I'm personally passionate about is just elevating leadership in AIA as well as DBIA. I'm starting to get more involved through DBIA and starting up student chapters and just kind of giving back at the point in my career where I've kind of reflected on my journey and kind of noticing some key instances that informed my career. So I'm trying to to do the same thing as to bring that ladder behind me as as I continue to climb up. So one of those things, the student chapters, I'm particularly passionate about. And, you know, with with Mortenson, continuing to, you know, build the business locally, but also I'm interested in just kind of expanding the conversation nationally when it comes to the connection between architects and and GCs and the collaborative delivery models and and the value of that.

B So that conversation, getting involved in, you know, the DBA path as well as other organizations. Like, I would like, you know, to get in front of more groups like Koa or the AI AGC joint committee. And so that those are some of the things I'm thinking about is continuing to be that bridge between architecture and construction.

A So I imagine just given your response that this answer might go a little bit deeper into where where your head is. But, you know, seeing that you're an architect on the construction side and you have this background, this master's in real estate development, what do you see as some of the biggest and I feel like we are kindred spirits and and that's one of the things that drew us together kind of in conversation on the strategic council when it comes to alternative career paths. What do you see as the biggest challenge that we face within the profession? Is it building those bridges or is it something else?

B I think, you know, the challenges and opportunities kinda go hand in hand where it's like, I see you, like, the the biggest challenge is that I I think we need to get outside our bubble a little bit. Yeah. I think, you know, that's where we can invite the allied professions into the conversation, you know, and we can learn about other industries and how other professional industries run their businesses and the way they see the built industry. And so I think that's where, you know, as a design community, I think just kind of being more connected. And that's where I love, you know, spaces like DVIA or NAIAOP where it's a mix of developers, architects, contractors having, like, that conversation. I think, you know, it just kinda opens your eyes where, you know, to viewing your same profession, your same industry from a different perspective. And I think that's where we have the most to learn from. And so, you know, with that, you know, opens up a lot of things.

B Right? It's hard, you know, to to kinda be open to to learn or to be challenged in that way. And, you know, I kind of I sit in that space on both sides. Right? Like, being architect on the construction side and then being a, you know, construction leader in the architect side. And it I think that's where I have, like, the most interesting conversations. And so that's that's where I think to encourage, you know, the profession is, like, to be open to those integrated spaces and invite those alternative career architects into the conversation.

A What is your hope for the future of the profession?

B Yeah. I think the the hope from the future of the profession is to to get that umbrella bigger. So, you know, early on in architecture school where our professors were inspiring us that there's so much expansive careers in design, like, from for architects, from interiors to theater design, to graphic design, to video game design. And, you know, it was like the space where it's like, oh, like, with my the way I think in my degree, like, anything is possible. And then entering the profession, it it just seems like there was some boxes and and walls that were, you know, like we talked about before, it's like, oh, well, but you didn't practice in architecture, and it's like, that's where it kinda felt a bit of, you know, those walls. And, you know, for my hope of the future is to to break down those walls because there are a lot of, you know, architects working in allied professions out there, and, you know, we can elevate the profession together. And that, you know, that just makes the value, the experience, the opportunities just even more expansive.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture dotcom/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.