Architect, And: Joann Lui on Matcha, Marketing, and the Portfolio Career

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology, and create more sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. This episode is brought to you by Gelt. Firm owners, are you overpaying on taxes? I use Gelt for my business and saved over $10,000 in year one. Visit joingelt.com and mention Practice of Architecture for 10% off your first year. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Today I'm sitting down with Joanne Lui, an architect, entrepreneur, community builder, and content marketer who has quietly assembled one of the most interesting portfolio careers I've seen come out of this profession. Joanne spent 6 years at Gensler in New York before making a deliberate move into the architecture tech world, doing content marketing for startups like Monograph and TestFit. Along the way, she founded the Women Architects Collective, a community now over 5,000 members strong. She launched the Mental Health and Architecture Summit. She built a personal branding coaching practice for architects, and then she did something that caught me completely off guard when she mentioned it in passing. She co-founded Oika, a matcha company in New Jersey that is now the largest matcha refinery in the United States. Stone milling, single origin Japanese matcha fresh in their cafes. What I love about this conversation is that Joanne knew early on she was never going to start her own architecture firm, and instead of treating that as a limitation, she treated it as permission to build in every other direction.

A We talk about what it actually takes to open a brick and mortar business, how her architecture brain shows up in everything from cafe designing to sourcing philosophy why she rejected the traditional side hustle of moonlighting on projects, and what it means to build a career that doesn't fit neatly into one box. Let's get into it.

B Hi, Joanne, welcome back to Practice Disrupted. I'm so happy to have you with us on season 12.

C Thank you, I'm glad to be back.

B So I think last time you helped me open up a season before, and then we've also talked a little bit about Some of the things that you've been doing on the side, you're really known for your, your branding, building your own brand, and especially I think helping people on LinkedIn and your marketing background. What people don't know though is that you actually are a brick and mortar owner of a matcha tea shop, which is kind of interesting to me. You have lots of revenue streams coming in to kind of create this portfolio career you've created. For the people who don't know a lot about you and might just be hearing about you for the first time on the podcast, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what got you excited about architecture?

C Yeah, for sure. So I am an architect. I still like to call myself an architect. Um, I have been, you know, in architecture for over 10 or even 15 years now, probably. And. Along my architecture career, I have definitely, like you said, done a lot of things. I have built the Women Architects Collective, which is an online community for women in architecture. I have— do personal branding, work strategy, and coaching for different architects as well.

C A couple years ago, around COVID time, I transitioned into the tech startup world where I started doing marketing for architecture tech startups. And yes, now I own a matcha shop with a business partner and, and doing that as well. So I guess you can say I am doing a lot of things.

B You're doing a lot of things and I wanna eventually cover all those things, but I wanna talk a little bit about your career path. To maybe help us understand, like, all of the things that you kind of decided to take on, many of them, by the way, as side hustles while you're doing your full-time job. And the interesting thing about the side hustles that you do compared to the side hustles that I think other people think about doing with side hustles, which I would call more moonlighting, right? These side hustles are really not necessarily— project-oriented per se. I think when a, a lot of architects think about side hustles or like doing projects on the side, what I like about your entrepreneurial spirit is that they're not projects. Like you said, they're branding, they're building a community, they're marketing, all using your architectural skills. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your architecture journey and what made you— I think the women's collective, right? Was one of the first things you kind of kicked off. What made you interested in starting that?

C Yeah, I, I mean, I start— I don't even remember when I started it anymore, but I start— when I first started, I think there was not a lot of online communities for architects, and I really just wanted a community where all the women in architecture can support each other and, and give them resources to support each other. Because I mean, this was 10, over 10 years ago, and I think back then there were fewer women in architecture than what we have now. And that it was harder, especially in smaller firms, to find a mentor that you can relate to when there were fewer women for, for women architects like us. So I, I wanted to create that space. Space. So that was pretty much, yeah, the first thing that I started. It's interesting you say that. I, I never was really interested in— I knew going into architecture, or along my entire architecture career, that I was never gonna have my own firm.

B Oh, that's interesting. Why was that predetermined thought? Only because I feel like a lot of people go in and they end up starting their own firm because they want to do flexibility. So why never run your own firm?

C I don't know. I had just this gut feeling that that would never be something that I wanted to do. I think as when I was doing architecture projects, I didn't really— I love designing and like, I loved, you know, actually managing the project and doing all of that. I think I didn't like dealing with a lot of different clients and a lot of different projects going on at the same time. And that was something I— or even just like the business side of managing a firm, I didn't really care for that. So I just, I don't know, I just knew that I didn't want to have my own firm, which I know is very different than most architects out there. That want to have their own firm. So when I was doing my side hustle, it was never a thought for me to like do more architecture projects to try to build my own firm.

B So what about the business of architecture didn't get you kind of excited about starting your own firm?

C I think it wasn't really scalable. It was a very manual work that you have to do. To get to a certain point in your firm that you want to go. So, I guess it's very labor-intensive and it was very, very much like a manual work that I don't see— I didn't see the possibility of like scaling it into a bigger thing. I mean, obviously there are gigantic firms out there that scale it to a bigger thing, but I think just by myself, I don't think I would be able to do it. Alone, at least.

B Not even with the technology available these days, but that's a whole nother conversation.

C No, I think now you can. I think back 10, 15 years ago, I don't think— I, I think that was never in my mind that now we have to— I think now we have the technology to do it. Yeah.

B Is that same mindset then ultimately why you left, like, what we consider traditional practice and went into tech, or did you find that you really enjoyed the things that you were doing on the marketing and branding side, which kind of led you into new roles within tech?

C Yeah, I, I love marketing and branding. I think that, that was the main thing I, when I went into tech was, was the marketing aspect of it. Obviously I do love the technology. I, I love the tech startup environment where everyone is into innovation and technology and all of that. But yeah, the main, the main thing was that I really enjoyed marketing.

B Did you ever think about doing marketing in an architecture firm?

C Someone asked me that question once. This might be controversial. I don't think a marketing team in architecture firm is doing what is marketing in a different type of company. I think marketing team in architecture firm is mostly creating proposals. For, you know, to try to win projects, which you have to do in an architecture firm. But in what I was doing in content marketing is more growing an online presence for the company, which I think a lot of architecture firms are still not doing. So that's why I went into the tech startup world because I wanted to do that content marketing.

B Was there anything other than just the work that drew you away and into tech?

C Yeah, I mean, it's definitely much more flexible. I have— I was able to work remotely from home for the past two startups I worked at, so definitely a lot more flexible with my time, which I think allowed me to continue growing all my side projects, like doing 2 conferences. And that was only possible, I think, because I, I had the time and flexibility outside of my full-time job.

B So let's talk about the one I feel everyone knows the least amount about, because I didn't actually know you were doing this until you mentioned it kind of in passing in a conversation. So talk about your brick-and-mortar tea house. Let's start with what it's called and where are the locations.

C Yeah, so we are called Oolika. We are a matcha company, mainly New Jersey. So we have two locations, one in Lawrenceville, New Jersey, and one in Princeton, New Jersey. And we're opening a third one actually soon around the same area in Princeton. I haven't really talked much about it. I think when you're doing too— so many things, I think sometimes I'm like, I don't know how to talk about this. And then I just don't talk about it. I think because it's so different than anything I've ever done that I have a hard time actually putting words to it to explain to people what I'm doing.

B Yes. I, I mean, I feel like this notion of a portfolio career and doing lots of different things is becoming more normalized, definitely outside of architecture. I don't know necessarily about within architecture, but having different revenue streams, doing a lot of things that, you know, things that are definitely in your wheelhouse, but I think adjacent to that. But starting an architecture firm is hard. Starting anything brick and mortar, I imagine in my head post-pandemic where I still see a lot of empty space for lease is hard. So what made you want to take this on?

C I mean, I definitely won't be able to do it without my business partner because he— when I had my full-time job, he was doing it full-time and I was helping on the side, but I think what I find, I guess, similar to architecture is that because it's brick and mortar, it's like an actual tangible physical thing that you can see and touch. And I think that works with my architecture brain on like actually having a physical product in a physical location that people can go to and kind of like the— I know a lot of architects will say this, but when you have— when you finally get your building done after 4 years, you get that fulfillment of like, that you feel fulfilled that you see your building is built. And I think having a café in a café setting is kind of like you're seeing the little moment every day of like 100 people coming in and they're getting a drink from you and they have that happiness. Every single day in these tiny moments instead of you are— instead of waiting 4 years after you finish a project and seeing that moment. I think that's what drew me to the café environment.

B So, so many different questions. So let's start with why matcha and, and you guys are doing it a little bit differently. So let's talk about that as well. You and I have always been matcha lovers, so I feel like we were on the matcha craze before it became a little bit more obsessive. So let's start there. Why, why matcha? And specifically, what are you guys doing differently about— with how you're sourcing matcha?

C So we source our matcha directly from Japan, and because Mark is extremely obsessive about the farmers and the craftsmanship behind the tea, so he's met some of the, like, most important tea farmers you can find in Japan to bring their tea here. So we focus on that. I would call it single origin matcha. So similar, if you think about single origin coffee, is one source, one cultivar, one farm. Um, similar to that, we bring that to America from a matcha perspective, and then we mill all our matcha fresh in the cafe. So we have these traditional stone mills that we grind the tea leaves into matcha powder. So you're getting the freshest, like, matcha latte you can get. I think the idea behind it was more like, we want to support these farmers, but interestingly, the tea industry in Japan is actually dying because people are not drinking traditional tea.

C Japanese people are actually turning into coffee. So if you go to Japan right now, you can get the best coffee there is.

B Oh, I had no idea. I was excited about the matcha when I was in Tokyo last year.

C Yeah, they're not drinking matcha anymore, and bringing that here to America kind of help— help the farmers But isn't there a matcha shortage? Yes.

B So where does that dynamic play in with the fact that they aren't drinking matcha in Japan?

C So the matcha shortage came really from outside of Japan, like all the other foreign Western— mostly Western country that's growing obsessive about matcha. But it became— I think it become a problem because everyone is obsessed with getting the highest quality matcha, but putting it in a matcha latte that you actually don't need the highest quality matcha. So the matcha shortage is really that dynamic of everyone in the West thinking they want the best when they actually don't need the best. If you just get a regular culinary grade matcha. You can use it in your ice cream and your cookie, like, you don't need the best. So I think that dynamic is just a different way now of what we are seeing, just so— But you guys

B are getting the best.

C Yes. So we are trying to— we try, we try to get the best. So there's different types of matcha, right? So The single origin ones that we get is limited in quantity that we can get. And because we have built really direct and personal relationship with all the farmers, they're allowing us to buy it. Not everyone can buy it. With some of the farmers, they only sell it to us in America just because we try to build that community and, and relationship with them. Them.

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B What does that mean for your ability to scale the company in the future then? And do you want to scale it?

C Yes. Our goal is to have many, many oika around America. Yeah, that is definitely something we are constantly working on is like sourcing where can we get matcha, which is why Mark, my business partner, spends like half a year in Japan every year just to continue building the relationship with different farmers to, to make sure we can get the material.

B Talk about what it meant for you because you, you were the designer of the cafe. So I think a lot of people know what it means to design a cafe, but how do you go from kind of idea to actually opening a cafe? And even like, what does, what does the funding or financing kind of look like behind that? And how did you identify your first location? Let's talk about all those things.

C My— our first location was very random. I think it was during COVID We were taking a walk and literally just saw this empty store in the— on the main street of Lawrenceville. And we were like, oh, this would be a cute little tea shop. So we reached out to the landlord and, you know, the rent was not that crazy because it was COVID time. And we— because of that, we were like, let's just try it because, you know, the rent was not like a crazy amount. It was a small space. So we thought it would be a good first step to get a really small space to see if it will actually work. The idea actually was just to have a tea shop and maybe 5 or 10 people will come in every day.

C We had no idea what this was gonna grow into, but once we opened, like, it became really popular and everyone— a lot of people come every day. But definitely from the start to opening the shop, it actually— the first one took us probably 2 years of going through township permits, going through renovations. And then in the middle of our renovation, there was a fire upstairs. So it was a lot of things. Yeah, a lot of things happened. So it's definitely, if you treat it like an architecture pro— it is an architecture project because you are renovating a space and building it out. But at the same time, you're also trying to hire new employees and train people to be able to work, come up with systems, because it's the first time we ever do this. I have no idea how to run a cafe.

C You have to learn everything about inventory and cost of goods sold and keeping the cafe and— or even just how to make matcha in a way that's efficient and fast enough that it can be like a high-volume shop. So all of that we, you know, have to learn on our own while we're running a shop and trying to grow. So yeah, definitely a lot of work go in it.

B How much of kind of the social-driven mission of uike came together with kind of the, the business idea? So I feel like you're underselling Right. The, the single origin, because I think you're the first matcha company worldwide to really focus exclusively on single origin matcha with full sourcing transparency. That's a social commitment to it. You alluded to milling right in your stores, but I think that also is like the bigger story about that is that it reduces the strain on Japan's limited stone mills, right? By doing some of the milling. And then another interesting thing from a marketing perspective is that— is mentioned that Mark directs 100% of the marketing budget to nonprofit partnerships instead of doing influencer marketing. Those seem like very deliberate decisions. So how did you decide to be so socially driven and, and how did it affect the business in a good way or limited what you believed you could do going forward?

C Yeah, so I think when you run a business, everything should come back to your mission. I know in the branding world, people are always like, you need to have a vision and a mission. And it's actually really important when you actually run a business because there are million decisions you have to make. And if you don't have that mission, you're like, well, do I sell the matcha? Does— like, I can sell matcha in bubble tea and tons of sugar and like probably make a lot more money than what I'm doing. But I think coming back to our mission was to preserve heritage matcha, meaning we are working with these farmers to try to help them bringing the capital back to them, working with them directly so that they can preserve the traditional way of making matcha. Instead of doing some other cheaper way of doing matcha. So I think because Mark and I both really respect the craft behind it and, and just like meeting the farmers and understanding what they're doing in the background that no one really see, that we really wanted to honor that because I think We have an understanding that without the farmers, we wouldn't have the matcha that we serve our customers. And while we are like a matcha brand, we are serving the, the matcha, we're not the one that make it.

C It's not like we're a chef where we put together a dish. It's like the farmers are giving us their tea. We are milling it into matcha in the best way we can. To hopefully honor their craft. So I think because of that, every decision we try to make goes back to that. Serving single origin matcha, doing matcha milling in our cafe so that it helps the farmers sell more, sell more tea. Yeah, I think even down to the branding color we use. Everything was because of the mission.

C And I know this is very cliché, but when, when we're discussing like business decisions, we're always just like, well, what is our mission? Like, does that make sense?

B So you alluded to a lot of things about inventory, staff schedules, creating procedures because this is the first thing, like the first time you've done it, especially with your first store. So there's— clearly fundamentally different challenges to running a brick-and-mortar matcha cafe than working in architecture or even in tech. What has been the steepest learning curve for you and where do you go to learn how to do these things?

C I think the most challenging part is probably— is probably staffing. 'Cause we— because it's a cafe, there, there are a lot of people that come and go, like employees-wise, right? No one is gonna be a barista forever. So there are a lot of students, a lot of people part-time that come and go. So learning how to manage all of that going on is definitely a learning curve. Learning how a cafe business model work like, you know, I, I had no idea. I mean, I knew how an architecture firm business model work with like, you know, you're tracking your hours and all of that. But in a cafe, it's a totally different business model that I didn't know how to do it. But I learned just watching YouTube video, reading books about running a restaurant on my own.

C And I think Because I, I mean, I, I love the business side of a business. So to me it was just a natural thing to learn about it.

B So YouTube and books, which is honestly, I think what a lot of entrepreneurs do.

C Yeah. You kind of just have to jump in and do it and then figure it out.

B So one of the things that you and I collaborated on was the Mental Health in Architecture Summit. And you talked about kind of all of these things you're doing, all while running a full-time job. This is a question that I get asked a lot, so I'd like to hear your answer to it. How are you doing it all, and what is— what is a work-life balance? So, I don't actually like that term, but what is that term, or what is balance or non-balance? Like, what does that mean to you and kind of all that you're taking on?

C I love what I'm doing, so— To me, I don't think there is a work-life balance. I'm just— I'm always working, but I really do love it. Like, obviously I will spend time with my family and do other things, but because I really do enjoy what I'm doing, like, I don't feel like it's too much or getting like burnout or things like that because I think burnout comes when you're doing work that doesn't— that's not aligned with your values or what you want to do. But to me, because I was able to find things that aligned with my values and doing it the way I want them to be done, it doesn't feel too much work to me.

B I think that's the key when it comes to like understanding what is like what you're taking on in life, right? Like that if you're following what you're most passionate about and it's giving you energy and, and you're not hitting burnout. I think that's what drives a lot of us that tend to have a lot of things on our plate.

C Yeah, I think we both— you and I naturally gravitate towards certain things and I think like those things are not gonna burn us out because we chose to do it and we know like we, we like doing it.

B So we've talked about kind of your career arc and a lot of the things that you have been doing, but you're also kind of stepping into this new segment in your career and like reframing what life looks like after Tesvit. So what are you taking on now?

C So now I am doing some freelance work for companies in architecture. To help them with marketing, mainly content marketing. So I'm trying to just probably take on a few clients and see how that goes. At the same time, I'm still gonna be running Oika and working on that as well. So yeah, I think, I think I— the main focus going forward will probably be more time at Oika and still doing some marketing work on the side.

B What is content marketing specifically?

C So content marketing is mainly the content you see online. So anything from social media to, to blog posts to case studies that are on people's website or ebook and reports and white paper, any kind those type of content pieces that you see on other companies' website. And the main purpose of content marketing is to drive the top of funnel and drive leads to your website so that people will fill out a form and then grow your pipeline. So if let's say in, in the architect— in the marketing world, I don't know if most people know this, but there's a thing called a funnel, right? So if you imagine a funnel, the top is wider and then it goes smaller. So content marketing kind of sits at the top where you're trying to get a lot of eyeballs and a lot of people seeing your website or your social media account. And then driving them down the funnel to become a client of yours. So yeah, that's what the goal of content marketing is for.

B I know this sounds simple to you, but I feel like there's going to be people that are listening and it's going to be like, what does it mean to drive somebody down the funnel?

C Yeah. So for example, if you are an architecture firm, just as an example, people go to your website and they— maybe they searched a random term on Google and say residential architect in New Jersey and they randomly went to your website. On your website, usually you have a form that people will fill out and then they want to talk to you. That's like driving them down the funnel, like basically trying to push them to contact you so that you get a lead in your pipeline, and then you get on a call with them, you try to figure out what they are trying to build, and then you send them a proposal, right? And then, and then they decide if they want to work with you. So the process of before you're going into the proposal part of how people are finding you into to contacting you, and then you're giving them a proposal and then they're signing it to you. The whole thing is like a funnel in the marketing world, and you're basically driving them down that path.

B So it sounds like you want to take on some new clients. It sounds like— where are you with the branding stuff, the personal branding stuff? Is that still something of interest to you, or have you kind of more firm-focused now?

C I'm kind of focusing on the content marketing a little more now and the matcha business, so I haven't really taken on much like branding or coaching clients, but if anyone contact me, usually I'll talk to them and see what they need and see if that's something I can actually help them with. But yeah, I'm trying to narrow my focus a little bit and see see where that goes.

B And then what does Uica look like in the next 4 to 5 years? What would be your hope for its growth in the short term?

C We are hoping— I think we are entering a phase in the business where, where we are trying to really build our foundation stronger and streamlining all the systems and operations. On every side of the business. And then once that's like done and, and working well, we'll hopefully scale to more locations.

B Are you going to come to the West Coast at all?

C I hope so.

B You guys used to do mail order matcha. Do you still do that?

C Yeah.

B Okay. So if anyone who is listening is a matcha lover and wants to get single source matcha from Uika, just go to the website and we'll put it in the show notes.

C Is o-o-i-k-a dot c-o.

B If there's an architect that's listening to this thinking, I have this idea for a business that has nothing to do with buildings, or maybe it does have to do with buildings, but it has to do like starting their own something else. What would be your advice to them and what would you tell them to start to do? Like, what would you tell them to do this week to begin to take action on that idea?

C I think you have to first test your— if your idea can actually become a business and see if it will work. So I would say just go out and test, even if it's just inviting your friends and, and have— if it's, for example, if it's a drink or food or something, or maybe you want to sell candles or whatever, just making it and testing it and seeing what people like and don't like, and then over time optimize it to, to where people really love your product. I think that process is sometimes like the testing and changing and doing all the researching. That process is sometimes missed in starting a business because, you know, people just want to jump in and do it, which is totally valid. But like, when we first started, we tested so many different recipes. We tested every single type of oat milk out there to find the best one to pair with our matcha. And like, you know, trying to find— trying to hone in your product and, and do it that way. But at the same time, don't just keep— don't keep thinking about it in your head, like, make it into a real thing and then present it to someone in your life that will give you honest feedback and start from there.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, You can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is @practiceofarch. That's practice of A-R-C-H. We'd love to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a

B DM and say hello.

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