Lattice over Ladder, A New Model for Leadership in Design

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disruptive. What does it take to reshape leadership in architecture? The traditional model of firm leadership is often rigid and hierarchical. But today, we're exploring a different approach, one that empowers individuals at all levels to grow, contribute, and lead. Fifteen architecture and design is challenging the status quo with their lattice approach to leadership development, a model that embraces flexibility, inclusivity, and mentorship to cultivate the next generation of design leaders.

A Their work is rooted in the belief that architecture can and should be a tool for positive impact, And they've been proving it through transformative projects that uplift communities, revitalize spaces, and expand accessibility. Joining us today are three incredible voices from Fifteen. Jimene Valle, AIA lead AP, is a founding principal of Fifteen. She is a passionate advocate for redefining the practice. Jimene has built her firm around bold innovation, breaking down traditional barriers, amplifying diverse voices in design, and fostering a culture where young leaders, especially women, can thrive. Ramune Bartusketa, AIA lead GA OLAP, is an architect, advocate, and CEO of Spec Matters who focuses on designing healthier environments and advancing equity in the profession. Sherard Parker, AIA, is an architect and educator with a passion for designing spaces that are deeply personal, responsive, and rooted in community. Together, we'll dive into their unique leadership philosophy, why it matters for the future of the profession, and how firms can rethink their approach to mentorship and growth.

A Let's get started. Hi. So we are welcoming fifteen's team to the show. Thank you so much for joining us on Practice Disrupted today.

B Hi, Evelyn. Thanks for having us.

A So we have three other individuals joining us from Fifteen. Himine, Sharad, and Ramune, do you wanna maybe do a round robin of letting us know who you are and what your position is in in the firm? And I was gonna say a fun fact, but maybe just even how long you've been at Fifteen might be a good place to start.

B As I mentioned, my name is Ramune Barthesqueta. I've been with fifteen for three years. I'm an associate there, but I also I'm an architect, so I practice architecture as well. Also at the firm, I lead the marketing and communications efforts as well.

C Hi, everyone. I am Sharad Parker. I am a registered architect with fifteen entering my third year. And in my time here, I've been involved in our processes, including the way that we use software to deliver projects.

D Fun fact, Sharad was my student at Temple and a star student, I should say, and that's how we met, which makes me very lucky. So my name is Ximena Vale, and I'm one of the founders of Fifteen.

A So I think Ximena will kick off the conversation with you as a founder, obviously. And today's focus as a conversation for our listeners is really going to be on leadership development. I think it's a, it's a sore spot for a lot of firms and fifteen is doing it a little bit differently. And they're actually using Ladders, which is a Lattice system, which we actually I helped developed one of them while working at Slack Technologies for some teams too. So I'd be interested to see how you guys developed your LADA system, but, Hemani, can you give us a kind of intro into more on the mission, vision and values of the company and how you are building out things differently and why?

D Thanks, Evelyn. Yeah. I think it'll be good to give a little bit of context. So prior to founding 15, I had the opportunity to work at a number of firms here in Philadelphia. As a graduating student, I was really intrigued by the resources offered by a larger firm. So I worked at a large AE firm. I worked subsequently in kind of a medium architecture and interior design firm, and then worked for a smaller design firm. And I noticed, you know, during my tenure that there were some gaps that regardless of the size of the firm and regardless of the type of client and work, continue to show up.

D And some of those that are very relevant to today's conversation is really talent leaving the profession. And I noticed that that's, and I experienced it myself, a lack of leadership opportunity within companies and really talented people leaving architecture in search for greater opportunities for growth, leadership, and innovation. I also noticed that women were largely absent from leadership positions. And at the time, I was around 35 years old. A lot of my colleagues from graduate school and from undergraduate had elected to go elsewhere and seeing that there was no representation in leadership positions in their firms. And I also felt that we were losing agency as architects in things that we really, really cared about, and and that was sad. And I will say maybe the last thing too is that I noticed that there was a lack of inclusivity in the process and not as much opportunities for the voice of the end user and of the community to be part of that. And this is not, you know, a reflection of specifically the firms I was a part of.

D I think it was I recognized that it was more of an industry wide issue. And so when I see something that doesn't quite work for me, I I like to challenge it. And so decided to start 15. I recruited my partners, and we are a woman led firm, launched seven years ago.

A Great. And just for additional context, can you talk to us a little bit about the type of areas that you guys are working in to and how big fifteen is just to understand more of what you've built. And also I feel like, eye roll or not, I feel like some people are like, well, you can only do that if you work at a high end residential firm. So just greater context around the areas where fifteen has projects as well.

D Sure. So when we started Fifteen, it made sense to us to focus in the areas where we had high degree of expertise, which is really corporate, workplace, life science, and higher education. We also were really passionate about creating impact, and that's really part of the mission of fifteen is is using our work to amplify the impact of each one of those opportunities, and in doing that, creating positive impact. And so we wanted to work locally, and we explicitly were interested in finding clients that were doing great things for the communities that they exist in. And it wasn't really a portfolio that we had. It was one of those things that we really wanted to do. And And as you probably know, Evelyn, when you put something into the universe, the universe tends to give it back to you. So, we've been really fortunate to grow our market sector in the not for profit mission driven.

D And that's actually really closely tied to programs like workplace and learning and education. So it's it's a kind of sweet spot where everything comes together. We really do we do big buildings, commercial architecture. We don't do residential, although the idea of doing a mixed use kind of development is something we've toyed with. We are today a team of 18 core members. We have 15 and growing collaborators, which are also part of our team. So collectively, you know, we're 33 and growing.

A I would love to give Romine and Sharad an opportunity to even just talk about what interested you in 15 and why you joined to begin with.

B Yeah, I guess I can start. It's an interesting story because it was actually, one of Jimena's, students who's a good friend of mine, that used to work with me, who actually introduced me to Ximena in '15. I know Ximena was trying to recruit her and she wasn't ready to switch, but knowing me and and 15, she thought it'd be a perfect fit. I had actually done a lot of advocacy for women in architecture in grad school. I've co edited a book focused on women in architecture and I was just very passionate about, female led firms and I think I was just, you know, the stars aligned that and then I had founded the firm actually right around the time that I started grad school. So I actually didn't even find out about 15 until I graduated, but it was kind of a combination of perfect timing. I wasn't necessarily looking for a new job, but I was craving more, and I had all this experience outside of architecture and marketing, like starting a non profits and all these different interests. And it felt like a a smaller firm that's growing.

B It would be a better place for me to contribute on many different levels and help help fifteen grow. So it was just a perfect fit, and I'm really glad and thankful to my friend who made the introduction and is actually now working at fifteen with us as well.

C I I think I have a pretty similar story of coming to fifteen. As Amanda mentioned, I was a student previously. I was also not necessarily looking, but definitely craving more from, you know, what I could be offering any organization. And I I found the place that I was at, you know, a larger company to have a lot of roadblocks in in terms of me could making those contributions. And, when I spoke to Jimena, it was actually very interesting. And I I think once I met the team and saw how real this mission was and how encompassing everyone or how how much it encompass everyone in the work that they did in a day to day, I was so excited to be a part of the team.

A Sharad and even Ramune, I think we all know what some of the roadblocks are, and they are, like, generally associated with the profession. But can you maybe list more explicitly some of the things that you wanted to have a greater voice in, for instance, that you just felt that there were roadblocks there, and then maybe how you saw 15 doing it a little differently when you joined?

C Sure. I I guess I'll I'll continue. So I think, namely, for me, you know, I I am an architect, but I I don't really consider that to be, like, the extent of my interests and my abilities. And so at, you know, the experience I had previously, a lot of those contributions I was looking to make or looking to bring into the office were sort of obstructed through the size of the firm or through the structure of committees that, you know, I I wasn't involved in and had a I found a a difficult path to really contribute to. And so that was sort of paired with my concern that, like, my career growth was not limited or not defined by my abilities and my experience, but rather by my seniority at that firm. And so sort of taking those two pieces, there's so much that I wanted to do that I was really feeling, like, unable to. And I I think not being in a position where I was looking, but, you know, having multiple conversations with Ximena about this beautiful firm that was emerging, it definitely piqued my interest. And I I think on top of that, you know, there are are many organizations in not just in Philadelphia, but in this region and in this country that make these very bold claims about the kind of practice that they're trying to bring to the field.

C I don't I can't speak for all of them, but I think what really drew me to fifteen was, you know, seeing it in writing, hearing it from the leadership, but then also, like, observing it in the day to day work that we do and the clients that we serve.

B I guess similarly to Sharad's experience, you know, I am a practicing architect, and I've always felt like I never knew enough. I there's always just you just have to there's a huge learning curve, I think, that exists in our industry. And until you have twenty years experience, I don't think people really value your contributions in the in the average, firm. And so I found myself kind of stuck knowing that I have many other, skills that I had developed and yet there was no room for in the firm to really utilize those skills. Like my interest in com in, marketing for example, there was a marketing, department but they had their way of doing things and, you know, it it just seemed like too much of effort and, like, almost like a burden on that person to, like, take my ideas or even, like, take my, offer to, like, help out. But I also noticed that there was a very rigid structure in the way that projects will were delivered and the way that we interacted with clients and the communities and the stakeholders. And there was never room to really question the process or even, like, speak up when you thought we could do it a little differently, or improve it. So I was really craving maybe the space to feel acknowledged enough or safe enough to, like, speak up and suggest different ideas.

B And one of the things, like, from the very first meeting with Ximena and, Jill was the other partner that I first met, I think they recognized my value in the stories and experiences I shared. And I, to that point, had never felt as valued as I did in that conversation. And so I realized that, like, why am I staying at a firm that doesn't value me when there's others that do see value and I could contribute to? So that was my experience.

A Yeah. So I'm hearing a little bit, obviously, of, like, the gatekeeping that tends to happen or innate processes of like, we've always done things this way, and we're not opening like really to new ideas, but also like struggling to show up as a whole person and a multifaceted individual and and what that looks like. So, so, Emani, you sort of, you know, what you've called kind of this lattice structure to to leadership. How do you describe what that is to people that you're trying to to bring into the firm and and what that looks like?

D So, Evelyn, like many things at 15, it's really been an evolution and a process of of cocreation that has gotten us here. So I I was not as brilliant as to imagine this model before we had some time to see organically how creating that space, providing opportunities, including all the voices, what kind of framework could support that the best. You know, it wasn't clear. I'll say from the very beginning, like, I knew I wanted to recruit partners. I wanted our firm to be a kind of a more horizontal leadership structure that there would be opportunity for everyone who's there to to grow. That was a vision from the very beginning that we all shared. But exactly what that looked like really started to take shape a couple of years ago. And that was really by understanding in so many ways kind of a proof of concept that as we together grew in this way, we did not need to fall into this kind of pyramid hierarchy that all firms are or many firms are following.

D And I heard, at some point, someone talk about this idea that instead of a pyramid where everybody's fighting for one position at the top, if you because that makes everybody kind of adversarial. If you open up that pyramid and instead we have a lattice, then everybody can climb to their own top and be the best that they can be without being a threat or threatened by anyone else. And so this incredible idea that there's room for everyone who wishes to have a leadership role to have a leadership role, and that together in doing that, you know, we're greater together, or there's that power of the collective, which has always been a guiding principle from the top. So the frameworks sort of emerged from seeing what happens when you create opportunities, and it's really exciting that there is now this kind of graphic that represents to us a way to explain it to someone else. Because I've also often heard from team members that they sometimes struggle to describe their role in the company when it doesn't have a title.

A And to whatever extent, we'll just let our listeners know that if you're interested in the graphic, we will put it in the show notes. You know, I I think as a firm leader, if I were to stand in the shoes of a firm leader hearing what you just described, m and a, I would be like, well, how do you create bonus structures? If everyone is a leader, then then, you know, are you top heavy? Like, what does that actually look like? And how do you structure compensation while giving everyone kind of a place for growth too?

D Yeah. And I I really I really want to hear from Sharad and Ramune too in terms of how how we're working together. There's a couple of pieces, Evelyn. So one, and I wanna describe this because it makes so much sense. The more we talk about it, the more that I hope that others can embrace this. But just as Ramune and Shrood described, I felt the same kind of frustration as a as a young, emerging, whatever, advancing architect. Right? And which is that the AIA guidelines describe, you know, architect one through 100, whatever that is. Right? And it generally is associated with a certain degree of expertise or exposure that you have access to in your career.

D And it's really difficult to expedite that because as we all know, architecture, you know, it's it's a challenging profession and there's so much to learn. And you you have to go to the field and you have to participate in meetings. Like, there's a lot you have to do to be able to get to whatever those tiers are. But for for individuals who, as we were describing, have this kind of multifaceted abilities and interests and a drive to thrive, there is this other column of progress or whatever you wanna call it, where you can move at your own pace. And so in my mind, there's this idea of, as an architect, you're able to make these steps. But in a firm, you're able to contribute so much well beyond whatever that timeline is that is required for you

A to obtain that kind of experience.

D So what we're doing is creating opportunity for people, experience. So what we're doing is creating opportunity for people, for team members who want to push the firm forward and want to have that kind of impact and a voice at the table that doesn't depend on, you know, how many mistakes have you seen on the field.

A I think I'm beginning to picture, you know, it's not it's not one single ladder that you climb. Right? It's kind of like the the lattice that you're weaving together and how do you begin to give pass? Sharad, you haven't explicitly said what you know, what other facets you wanted to bring? But Ramune just since you mentioned marketing and communications, like how do you how does that play into your to the contributions of the firm? So I'm, I'm seeing it come together a little bit. So it'd be interesting to hear from Sharad and Ramune on how this structure or this new way of measuring kind of even your own growth has, has felt supported.

B Yeah. I can chat a little bit about what the principals have done over the past, I guess over a year now. We call it growth pathing, but they actually meet with every single person on the team to kind of help them figure out what is their interest or passion that they wanna explore and pursue within the firm. And so they actually Pimena and and Jill, for me, have helped me kind of create what we call rocks or, like, milestones that we can then kind of look back every quarter and measure our progress. And I think with that guidance, I think that is, like, a huge piece of support to make sure that we feel comfortable and have ownership, but then also feel, like, accountable for for what we have established and how we promise to progress, I guess. And so that is that's been really helpful. And then another thing that has provided a lot of support is we actually shared out all of our interests or, passions or the roles that we've defined for ourselves with the rest of the firm. And I feel like we really have this amazing culture at fifteen where everyone is just so excited to support each other and help each other grow.

B And so I think we by sharing opportunities with each other that align with our the roles and the interests, I think that is a huge source of of support for everyone and I think also ensures everyone's success.

C I'll add some of, like, my own perspective as a more, like a junior team member. When I look at the traditional, we'll use, like, a pyramid structure, larger firms or or other more traditional practices. As a recent graduate, I I did not feel very optimistic looking up this metaphorical ladder. It it felt very daunting to say the least, and also that the sort of advancement or progression was being imposed onto me and was not necessarily a reflection of my abilities. And so this kind of led to me thinking about it sort of as, you know, the the titles that comprise that ladder may not necessarily speak to what I'm capable of, but rather how long I've been with that organization. And so I I begin to understand, at least, what we're doing at 15 to be more an intrinsic or a result of intrinsic motivation, versus sort of the external ex extrinsically applied job titles that we present to the community. And so a lot of what we're doing as team members, as contributors to 15, is not necessarily motivated by these external factors, but more by our own desire to enact change within our organization and then to hopefully see that change extended to others. And then to a point that Humana made of, you know, this pyramid structure, I I do agree that it can be adversarial.

C And when you look at advancement in that structure, it's sort of like you are trying to take a seat that's already occupied. It it becomes very difficult to see a path for advancement because instead of seeing collaborators, you're seeing obstacles potentially. So I think in the lattice structure, it's almost as if just by creating a role or sort of the, like, opposition to be filled, like, people are going to fill it. People are going to look at ways that they can grow individually or increase their contributions beyond project delivery to fill these roles. And it's it's really just creating the openness for team members to fill in.

A Enjoying the show? Join a community of fellow disruptors at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Your membership helps support the production of this podcast, Practice Disrupted, and funds the creation of more resources for all of you. Looking forward to growing together. Join us today at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Well, thank you for sharing that. But I think I want to circle back in terms of, so now now my firm owner hat is on, right? And it's like, oh my god, the overhead they must be spending on all of these extra meetings to to learn about like, ensure these career path ways are are, like, properly nourished and grow. So, Hamani, what do you what would be your response to the extra amount of time and care it takes to properly nurture this along?

D I mean, the the reality is that what the firm gets in return is 10 times what you're investing in terms of time. This year, you know, and through these conversations, and again, like, none of this is because anyone is brilliant and came up with it. It really is a cocreation of what is the right framework for 15. Through these conversations, what we started to realize is, well, in order for everyone to successfully achieve these things, we need to really make time for them. And this is not instead of doing the project work, which is what pays our bills. Right? It's in addition to, but also not expecting the team to do this in nights and weekends. So something that we started this year, and, again, it was something that we saw someone in a different industry do, is we've come up with this idea of focus forward hours. So this is another carrot in the wrong direction, Evelyn, but these four hours a week, which obviously, if it's a tough week, you know, maybe it's eight hours one week or, you know, however you wanna do it, but it adds up to around sixteen hours a month, where we all know that each team member is spending time advancing this this area of the practice.

D And, honestly, it just makes so much sense because it means that we don't need to have an external consultant to handle the particular role because someone within our team feels passionately about pushing that ball forward. And what happens when you create that kind of space is incredible. Just to use an example of a team member that's not here with us, she's taking on a framework for sustainability. And by giving that space, these four hours, she was able to put together a foundation of what that might look like and then survey the team and see is this hitting the mark and then pull in one of our collaborators who is an expert in that world and get their input. And so instead of thinking about what are the resources we're spending there, just think about the incredible give back that the firm is getting by allowing that kind of space. So I think it's just that and I think it's just a different shift in perspective. Think about how people put overhead hours in their timesheets and what they're doing, and instead they could be doing this. Right?

B I also I'll add a little bit to that. I really also believe that through this exercise, I think people feel valued and heard and then care more deeply about the work that we're doing at fifteen. And when you're, like, so passionate about the work that you're doing, you will perform better. You will care more. And I think as a firm, we're able to function so much more efficiently and serve our clients better because of this work that we're doing.

A So as you grow, I'm interested in figuring out, like, how does this scale? So I I guess I should start with a question of whether or not you are interested in growing because I do know firm leaders like hit a certain number and they're like, this is this is good. And it sounds like in the example that you gave, Jimena, there was somebody that wanted to develop a sustainability framework. There was somebody in the team that actually had greater sustainable knowledge, but like just hearing that they were allowing somebody else to play around and utilize their expertise. What does internal mentorship structures look like, and how do you still allow for that growth to happen as you scale the firm?

D So first question is, yes. We're absolutely interested, and it is our our vision to continue to grow, frankly, to give more opportunities to to more people to work with us, to more clients, and to also make sure that we are able to do all of the work that we want to do. So that is very much in the plan. And exactly as you've called out, the concept of how do we continue to grow in in this model as we get larger is a real question and something that's been always at the top of our mind. We've always been thinking that, you know, there's a team of teams kind of approach that could provide that. So that's one aspect of it. But, actually, I posed a very similar question to Sharad and Rumune just recently, you know, as we were thinking about the topic today. And I I proposed something similar, Evelyn.

D Like, what happens when we're all happy in our roles and leading our own things, and then this amazing person comes through the door and, you know, they could be more and bigger than, you know, something that we already have in house. Like, what happens? And Sherod shed incredible light in the subject. And I want Sharad, if you can remember your answer, because it was brilliant to to share your perspective on that because I posted, as you did Evelyn, as like, you know, are we gonna hit a point where this is gonna become an issue? And I think the answer is no.

C Yeah. I I think as we look at growth, there's, you know, these roles that we add in addition to our project roles. I I think that's where a lot of the concern comes in. And, this was a bit more anecdotally, but, you know, I'm I'm very involved in our rapid processes. And I think my reaction to a a BIM manager coming through the door is not one of opposition, but rather celebration. I think all expertise is is very much invaluable here. And, you know, in my work supporting our Revit ecosystem, it's not because I'm in love with Revit, but because it enables us to practice design more efficiently and to spend more time on the problems that we are really interested in solving. And so I I think, you know, looking at the team members, much more of our energy in reaction to growth and to bringing in more expertise is to enable us to be better designers and better thinkers.

C And I I I don't just knowing our team as it is now, I don't see anyone really feeling any sense of adversarial threats towards more expertise and more ability entering the door.

B I also think a lot of it has to do with knowing your value and having that value recognized by the leadership of the firm. So you as a person have a lot of value to contribute, not specifically for just the single role that you play, but who you are as a person. And if someone else comes in and takes that role you you are still valued for the person that you are and there will always be a place for you in the firm to, you know, practice and contribute in a meaningful way. So I think that helps take out like the competition or the negative associations with that.

A This is wonderful to hear. So I have a question on kind of the flip side of the things just because you are both licensed architects. So what about when you're recruiting new people? So I I talk about, like, it took me a while to find my voice in my profession. So, you know, Sharad, like, what if there's somebody that's coming in and they're like, oh, I wanna support Sharad in Revit, but I'm also interested in marketing and communications, like how, how do you help the younger people? And is there flexibility to help the younger people figure out and maybe it's different from Revit and marketing communications altogether, but how do you allow for that exploration to happen?

C Yeah. I would say I think this goes back to our earlier conversation of, like, gatekeeping opportunities to contribute in these ways because there are no rigid committees that you have to sort of become a member of. It it really is each individual contribute like, contributor is taking a piece of this puzzle that is architectural practice and trying to further it themselves. I would say it's almost, like a sort of speed dating in a way. Like, if someone is interested in multiple things, there's no reason that they can't explore it. And this does actually come up in one of our firm traditions. As as someone enters the firm at any level, we have a a round of buddy lunches so that they can get to know each team member at a personal level and understand what their contributions are so that if they're looking to get involved, they know who to talk to. It's not it's not behind any sort of veil.

C It is all very transparent.

B I'll just add to that too. So sometimes, you know, a young person may not even know, like, what their interests are. So I think the buddy lunches and talking to all of us is one avenue, but then just having a conversation and Ximena excels at this to really get to know the person, like, what are their interests and then, share opportunities, whether it's, like, organizations or events that they could potentially fuel that interest or learn more. Just again just having an opportunity to share and then, be connected to resources I think is really important and everyone at the firm would be happy to do that to a new person who may be joining the firm.

A So, Hamini, when you think about and then we talked a little I I mentioned compensation earlier, but when you think about, like, the annual review process then, how does this all kind of play into that? And I mean, obviously, you're not going to I don't imagine fifteen is gonna dock somebody for, like, you didn't lean into Revit hard enough, but you did. You know, you're excelling at project management, even though Revit is also the thing you wanna do, Sharad. Right? So what do those conversations look like? Is it relative to to how many rocks you set for yourself when you move forward? How does that play into how you break up the revenue of the firm and and give it back to your employees?

D Evelyn, I'm gonna go back a little bit for context. And if somehow I get derailed, you you you bring me back. Okay? So I want to say that none of this would be possible if my partners and the leadership at fifteen wasn't, you know, equally as committed to creating an equitable environment for the entire team, and that has been true from day one. So when we laid out our strategic plan for fifteen, you know, in big bold letters is the idea that we're all gears contributing to the bigger picture and that everybody shall benefit from the success of the company. And that's not and that, you know, must include financial compensation. You can't do this without having that play a role. And so from the very beginning, one, we are an LLC. That's a business structure, and we set up the company to have available units so that we could think about what shared ownership might look like.

D We haven't completely figured out what that looks like, but that is the goal from the very beginning. We also, from the very beginning, said we would share profits. And we, again, didn't exactly know what that would look like, but we now have a what we call an incentive pool. We set a target for the year, a financial target. Everybody knows what that target is because everybody can contribute to it. And if we hit that target, then every dollar beyond that target gets split up between all of the team members with different percentages. And it's not a if we have a really successful year, then the partners take away more money. It's if we've capped what that target is that pays the principles, and what is above and beyond that gets distributed.

D And that also gives us an opportunity from that pot to maybe distribute a little differently for someone who is maybe an associate or who has a particular role. Beyond that, you know, we we do what we were doing when we started, again, because of this desire to be as equitable as possible, was providing an equal kind of race across the board for everyone every year and being transparent about salaries and what everyone makes. Because to really try to pull away this, like, favoritism or subjectivity of who gets paid more, didn't make any sense. But what we've realized, and we're iterating, Evelyn, this is all you know, I've heard you say on the podcast before, like, we're using design thinking to design this firm, so it's iterative. But what we're doing what we're thinking about now is with these different roles, is there an opportunity for folks who really want to maybe a percentage of that incentive pool is standard for everyone, but maybe a percentage of that incentive pool is from someone who's really taken that, that leadership opportunity and, and really contributed to the firm, whether it's in terms of the revenue or in terms of the knowledge sharing or in terms of processes, one of these kind of core things for the firm, maybe the there's an opportunity there for those people to get recognized. Because it's not about being equal. Right? It's about being equitable. And I think that there's some team members who are gonna want to spend their extra time or their extra efforts here.

D And there might be some team members who are committed to doing that elsewhere. And so we we just need to find a way to to make that work. So it's in progress. But I think when you want to do something, you find a way and a formula to do it. And since it's our firm, we could do whatever we want.

B Yeah. Like the mention of, you know, salary transparency. I think it it is really important. I think people as long as you're paying everyone fairly and are transparent about it, I think everyone will feel happier instead of trying to question, oh, is that person making more, that person making more? You know, like, I think if you know the structure and how decisions are made, I think it it'll help you be more successful in the long run.

C I was just going to add, you know, the firm as we speak about things happening within 15. It's not that we have it all figured out and that every every potential roadblock and obstacle has been solved. You know, we're still very young, and a lot of these are things that we're looking out towards other peer organizations or beyond the field of architecture to to get more understanding and to solve ourselves.

A Now I was gonna say the extra four hours is similar to what Google used to do. And it's actually architects for him and if you haven't been connected to that leadership, I think you guys would be both, like, very aspirational towards towards one another. So So I have a question for Sharad and Ramune. Like having come from other firms, is there anything you had to unlearn or kind of retrain yourself to think in terms of when you came to fifteen? And it could be like unlearned in the most glorious way possible is to write but like, was there any mindset shifts that you had to you found yourself like, reminding yourself maybe the first even couple months after joining that things are different at 15?

C For me, it was really assuming agency was kind of a foreign feeling as a pretty young staff member. In traditional firm structures, it's top down. And so, like, agency is kind of restricted beyond what that, like, staff member's role might be, and it it sort of, like, comes down to you from above through layers of supervision. And as I I joined fifteen and begin to work on projects with others and begin to assume more more leadership or decision making role on any project, I think, like, understanding that I had agency in the formulation of these concepts and in the design of these spaces was kind of an alien concept, which is really crazy to say out loud, but it took some getting used to to actually have a voice.

A Did you have help, kind of reminders of that agency, or or were you just kind of the one that were like, oh, I have to like, oh, I actually have a voice here?

C No. No. Certainly reminders. One of the first projects I worked on here, I was sort of in a coordination role. And so, like, being the center point of communication from our team and the engineers that we're working with gave me, like, a a bit of room to actually, like, make decisions as to how that information flowed and test as to how these decisions were made between disciplines. And outside of that, it was, you know, just asking, like, what do I think? Like, having having Ximena, having our the other partners on the project ask, like, what do you think? And, like, what do you think this could be? And it sort of opened the door to finding my way to express myself in our teams and with our clients and consultants.

A Romaine, how about you?

B Sharad said it really well. I echo everything he said. I think there are a lot of moments, especially in meetings. I just remember a lot at the, at the beginning when I was first onboarded to 15 just constantly from from leadership hearing like, Rumune, like what do you think? Or just being encouraged to speak up in meetings. I think that was happening a lot only because I think there was a very defined role that I played in other firms and I never felt like I could speak outside of that role or have, you know, other ways to contribute and and so I think at 15 again them seeing my value and encouraging me to speak up and share my opinion often I think that was definitely a learning moment or something I had to relearn I guess.

A I don't know, Jimenez, if you wanted to add anything after hearing their stories.

D Nothing to add. I think I have heard or or seen and observed that sometimes it does take a little while, you know, to to I think it's it's to gain that comfort and to believe that when you're being asked what you think, it's it's like a real it's like a a real invitation to contribute. And I remember, Shiroj, you said this really well. I don't know if you remember, but you said that you felt like if you're in a rope, you had room, you know, to kind of work through getting to the top. And if you fell, you knew that you weren't gonna fall very far. And I think that that's it's working to strike that kind of balance. Right? To give everyone room to explore, but also within the safety of, like, this is a place where we're all learning, and we're not really gonna let, like, a real mistake that would have consequences, like, for a client or for anything like that. You know, that that won't happen.

D It's but but you have to have room to to explore. And I think that sometimes I just witness as people get onboarded that they might feel a little bit less comfortable with making a mistake or less comfortable with taking that risk. And, again, it's measured. It's very calculated. We're not gonna let it, you know, leave the office.

B Yeah. And I think that speaks a lot to the leadership at fifteen. All of, the principals are very much they have our backs no matter what. Like, you know, if any mistakes will happen, but just knowing that in the end, it'll be okay and they'll stand by us no matter what, I think makes a a huge difference.

A Looking back at your journey with fifteen, all of you, where you started and what you've built, What is one mindset shift or lesson that you wish more architects in the industry would embrace when it comes to rethinking leadership and growth?

C I think I'll speak first, and I'll speak more to, like, my peers in the in the field, those architect ones out there or four or five years of experience. I think when you look at your organization, you look at your role, you have a job title, and that title likely comes with the job description, but that doesn't need to be the extent of your contributions or the extent of your professional identity within your organization. I think you should look to challenge that and challenge yourself to grow beyond what is written out for your your your role on a project. And if the organization you're at isn't giving you the room to do that or is not structured in a way where you you find it feasible, there are so many outside avenues, other organizations, and sub communities of the architectural practice in which you can put all of that energy and continue to grow yourself as a professional.

B I think for me, I think it'd be a really beautiful concept if, architecture leaders thought of their teams as beautiful multi dimensional people that have a lot of different passions and and layers to them and just taking the time to really get to know them as a holistic person and find space and give them the space to actually act that way and and feel supported and and valued and seen, I think that would completely change the way that we practice.

D And to add to that, Evelyn, I think that the onboarding process and even the hiring process and how much energy goes into luring or courting, you know, that person that we want on our team. Oftentimes, what happen is that person shows up, and maybe there is or there isn't a computer ready for them, and maybe there is or there isn't someone to greet them, or maybe there is or there isn't a project that they can start to experience the firm culture with. I would suggest that really carefully planning that onboarding process, making sure that that person is able to and has the tools to become a part of the team is critically important. And then to take that same kind of passion and energy that you had in recruiting that individual towards mentoring them and towards seeing the incredible potential that they're bringing to the company. I think too often, what happens is that person gets in, we got them great, and then kind of forget all the reasons why we wanted them to join the team. And so finding those opportunities to reiterate fifteen as a company that it is today because of all of the individuals that have contributed, that have made it so much better and bigger than anything, you know, the founders could have imagined. So it's making that room. There has a lot of education that has to happen of our clients, and that recognize that this isn't easy.

D And it's not just a mind shift for us, but it's actually a mind shift for our clients and for the people that we work with. Because we struggled even with how we're asked to respond to an RFP when it comes to, you know, the roles and who people expect to see in a particular role. Does that person have enough gray hair to be in this role? Right? Just who's the lead designer? And we're very much of the mindset that we're all here because we're all designers. We all care about design. There's no one in our company that doesn't care about design. We're just playing a lot of different roles to try to push forward the best design possible. And so I just wanna recognize that it's it's not easy, but you have to lead with conviction. And that I hope that together, if more of us are doing that and doing that coaching of our clients, that it will just become the norm.

D And then we don't have to work so hard at changing their minds.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture..com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.