Interdisciplinary by Design: How FIFTEEN Builds with Purpose

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. This week I'm excited to welcome back Jimene Vel, founder of fifteen, a Philadelphia based architecture firm redefining what collaboration can look like in practice. I brought her on for a second time because I'm continually inspired by how she and her team are pushing boundaries, not just in design, but in the way they integrate expertise in their process. Joining her today is Mike Avery, one of fifteen's longtime collaborators.

A Mike's background spans architecture, landscape, occupational therapy and teaching, making him a perfect example of the kind of interdisciplinary thinker that 15 brings into the fold. But here's the twist. They don't call them consultants, they call. They call them collaborators. And this episode is about how that intentional language reflects a deeper commitment to inclusive cross disciplinary design. We'll explore how Jimene's unique approach brings new voices into the room, how those voices shape projects from visioning to post occupancy, and why building the right network is as essential as building the right team. Let's get into it.

B Hi Ximena. Hi Mike. Welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us today on Practice Disrupted.

C Hi Evelyn. It's such a pleasure to be here. You have been great company when I'm jogging and it's really exciting to get to be here.

B So lovely to hear that. So today we wanted to talk a little bit about 15 and kind of the unique way 15 leverages consultants and expertise beyond what you would typically hire for or bring on for architecture projects. So Ximena, I think maybe we start off with you introducing the firm and then Mike, I believe you're a great example of somebody who you might not usually find on a project and we can go from there.

C That sounds great, Evelyn. So yes, We15 is a design focused architecture firm. We're located in Philadelphia and we were founded seven years ago and we were founded, I think as a result of a long time experience at working at different firms and seeing some gaps and in those gaps, sort of seeing opportunities for having a different type of practice.

B I imagine that there's some listeners that are like, yes, I've been in practices that have Seen a lot of gaps, but, like, just for extra clarity, can you talk about kind of some of the gaps that you were seeing that you were hoping to bridge as you kind of sprung up your leadership and talked about how you want to run 15 differently?

C Yeah, absolutely. Not in any particular order, but talent. Leaving our profession and going to other industries was something that I noticed at each one of the. Not only at each one of the places where I practiced, but also as a professor. So I've been teaching architecture for a long time, and I noticed that a lot of my top students, after some time, were leaving architecture. And so I would find myself having conversations about why. I also saw women largely absent from leadership positions in architecture firms. I saw a disconnect between what clients and end users wanted to see in their built environment, and then many times where we were prioritizing their resources.

C And I also saw a gap in who had access to design conversations both within organizations, but also within the broader community. Who was invited to the table when we're trying to find solutions to what have become really complex problems.

B Yeah. And I feel like those solutions that you're finding, the complexity of the problems that we're addressing also calls for greater interdisciplinary experience, which leads to today's conversation. So. So I didn't know if you want to talk about that at all.

C I do. And, Evelyn, I'll tell you a story that I think helps to bring some Context to why 15 is run in this way. I'll keep it short, but when I was in graduate school, I had the opportunity to join an archaeological dig. As an architecture student, I thought, this is a great way to spend my summer doing something other than architecture before I have to commit my life to practice. But what I didn't realize is that when I joined this project, the leader of the project, the director, one of the co directors, Dr. David Gilman Romano, was a firm believer in interdisciplinary collaboration. I was an architect, but I was there with PhDs, researchers from all sorts of disciplines. So geologists, chemists, mythologists, everybody looking to answer the big question of what was the site once upon a time, through that process.

C And that's a project I was a part of for a long time. I realize there are questions that as an architect, we might come up with one answer. It's not that that answer is wrong. It's just that it's only part of the complete question. For example, we were wondering, why was the village settled there? As an architect, I might speak about the orientation, the wind, the slope. But if I talked to the geologist, he would bring up that there's a fault line and in fault lines there's springs. And so then the mythologists would talk about how the springs were very valuable or important or significant. And so it was only through those kinds of conversations that we could fully understand the problem.

C And so when I had the opportunity to start a firm, at the very beginning of that firm, at the same time that I was searching for partners to co found this practice with me, I was searching for collaborators, and Mike was at the top of that list. And I reached out and he said yes. And then we've been adding collaborators kind of at the same rate as we're growing our practice.

B Great. I think, Mike, this is a great opportunity for you to kind of jump in and talk about your expertise and what you bring to 15.

D Yeah, I think similar to what Jimena just outlined is sort of wanting to look at different things from different angles. My background is started in landscape architecture. I worked in urban planning, and then I decided I wanted to get beyond the building walls and into the buildings and went back to school for architecture. Really spent a lot of that time looking at fabrication and making and really spending my time looking at details and how things get put together. And then after practicing as a digital fabrication firm for a couple years, really thought, you know, I looked around the landscape and said, you know, what other industries could benefit from a sort of a designerly way of working a designerly process. And I actually realized that healthcare really needed some, some of that attention, or I felt it needed some of that attention. So I went back to school for a degree in occupational therapy because I really wanted to learn it from the inside out. So I went through that training.

D And then after that, while teaching as an adjunct, I continued to practice as a home care therapist part time. So I would patients, I would drive to the parking deck, I would change my clothes, and then I'd run in and teach courses. And to me, that was such an interesting balance between seeing individuals in their homes, seeing how they lived their lives with a disability, or after a surgery or after something happened to them, meeting with their families and helping them rehabilitate, and then going to school and teaching students about design or architecture or a class I currently teach still, which is health and architecture. So really, to me, it's given me an opportunity to try to come at problems from multiple perspectives. And I also teach. So I teach at the University of Pennsylvania in the architecture department as well as in the integrated product design program and in all of these classes and all of my opportunities to Engage with students. My biggest focus is really how do we center the person in this process and how do we make sure that we're answering needs that really are responding to what people want those spaces to do, how they want them to perform.

B So I imagine then you, you found each other in Academia Ximena, right? You, you mentioned. So did Mike, like, talk to you about your projects? Did you talk to him about the projects? Like, how, how did that begin to stir up? Because I think, you know, a lot of architects, we have our typical AEC consultants that we go to. I do think buildings are becoming ever more like the complexity of what goes into the buildings and all of the different things. So I have a son that's on the spectrum. Right. But we were never taught in architecture school kind of how to deal with individuals that just operate in the world a little bit differently. So. And we're trying to be more empathetic to all of that.

B So how did you guys, what was that first conversation like?

C I mean, I think, Evelyn, it's evolved and it was sparked by a curiosity about how folks like Mike who have been in the architecture space and have left. Right. Like that first group that I spoke about, incredibly talented problem solvers, are allowed to come back in a way that's so meaningful. And then it's a conversation about what are the other perspectives that are just like, ignored or not brought to the table because there isn't an awareness that they need to be included. And so when I reached out to Mike and I still remember, you know, very vividly, I said, mike, I'm starting a company and you need to be a part of it. And I don't know exactly what this is going to look like. I just know that you need to be at the table and I know that others need to be at the table. And so in the first few months, like kind of getting ready to launch this thing, I was listening closely to people that I was meeting, but also thinking about people I had met in the past that were no longer architects or that were never architects, but that would bring in that perspective.

C And I didn't know exactly what that was going to look like, Evelyn. I just knew that they needed to be part of the process. And so actually invented a contract, invented a kind of engagement for how to make sure that we could make them, you know, these individuals, like a real part of our team. And honestly, like thinking long term about the future of our profession and about the amazing opportunities when you start to bring experts effectively as consultants, because folks like Mike can continue to teach, can continue to be part of a startup, can continue to do all of these amazing things. That just makes his voice even richer when he comes to the table. So I don't want these people to stop doing what they're doing and only participate in 15. I want them to continue to be doing what they're doing. And so it wasn't totally figured out.

C We started having meetings, like, late at night with Mike and actually another one of our collaborators who's an experiential psychologist, just to talk about what are the kinds of issues we want to address. What kinds of projects can we start doing together? Even if they're not commissioned right now, let's just prototype. Let's just make a project, and let's do it together and see what happens. A lot of 15 has been aspirational in that regard. It wasn't totally figured out. You know, I think we're in a great place now. Seven years back. It works and we have proof.

D And just to add to that, I think it's also worth noting that it's something we're constantly figuring out. Every time I get an email from 15, right, it's, hey, we have this idea. Can you come in for an hour? Hey, we have a project coming up. Let's look at the brief together. Let's look at the application together. So I love the fact, personally, that organization that is continuously trying to evolve and it's continuously trying to understand how they can bring these voices in, and then I'm just excited every time that includes me. But sometimes it doesn't. Let's be clear.

D There are plenty of voices in the collaborator network that are bringing specific skill sets at specific times for specific projects. It's not always health. It's not always in my wheelhouse, but that's what is so interesting and dynamic about it.

B I want to play a little bit of the devil's advocate, because I do know we have listeners who are longtime leaders of firms, and they're just thinking, another consultant, another fee. How do I convince my clients to take on this additional expertise? What have those conversations been like?

C Yes, and I'm glad to address that because I think that has been a challenge and to be completely transparent, just for the benefit of everybody listening. You know, at the very beginning, we had to be pretty stealth about it. We would engage our collaborators, but maybe not necessarily highlighted as, like, an added thing, because a lot of clients did exactly what you said, Evelyn, and would say, why do I have to pay for that? I'm hiring an architect. Right? Like not understanding the value of that. But over time, we were able to bring those collaborators into our proposals and work into our business model. It has to be a holistic kind of view, work into our business model, being able to have those experts at the table as part of our process. And what happens is that those experts get us to solutions much faster. In a way, we are able to better get at where we need to go and be in those early visioning programming sessions.

C The value that the collaborator network brings is that we're able to come to solutions, innovative solutions, sooner and so we don't charge extra. I mean, where we're headed is we do want to have like a consultancy group that operates a little bit independent and can come in and out like that. That's an option for clients. But during our regular projects, we've just found a way to make our financial model work in a way that incorporates that expertise.

B And does that include, like Mike just mentioned, you know, oh, we have this, you know, can you come in for an hour meeting? How, how does that relationship work?

C So we've, we've, like I said, I. We had to invent a structure for that. So depending with each collaborator, we have different agreements. So some of our collaborators, you know, might be on a retainer kind of basis. So we, we just know that we have access and of course, we're respectful of each other's, you know, schedules and things like that. But it's really more of a retainer or we worked on one particular project that was a lot of fun with Mike and a couple other collaborators where it was actually the client understood what they were getting and they wanted to pay for it. And that was a set agreement of amount of time towards an outcome. So it's pretty simple in that regard.

C We can actually execute effectively a purchase order when we engage, or we could work in a retainer kind of way.

B So I have a question for Mike. Being on the consultant side of it, obviously I feel like you're an individual who tends to put more on their plate rather than less. But how do you balance the needs for these projects that pop up with all of the other work you're doing?

D I think like anyone working in that consultative way, it's really a matter of prioritizing the opportunities. I see, and I see 15 as sort of a constant. It's on my board of, you know, what's, what's coming up in the future, and I basically just make time for it, to be honest with you. It's never too much of an ask and it's always done in a way that is sort of like what amount of time does this person have and how can we leverage it the best? So it's not necessarily the same amount of engagement for every project, but for that project, what makes the most sense for both 15 and for myself or whatever, whoever the other collaborator might be. But I will say one thing that I really appreciate about it is and maybe this is where some of the difference stems from is the idea that instead of pulling my voice in or the other people in the project, Jimenez just talking about in just for their expertise in that moment. But when we're thinking about spatial planning, they're still there. The person who knows audio visual is there helping us understand how the space should be planned. I conducted interviews of healthcare providers and people being educated in this space.

D So it wasn't like, oh, we have their little nugget of information, let's apply it. It was actually, what do they see when they hear everyone else's perspective? And how can we sort of make this mixture become even more than what it would be if we just had five different paragraphs written by five different people that we pinned up on the board and used as a starting point.

B And that's like a great lead in to my follow up question. Like obviously I would say, I would say even as somebody who's been on the other side writing RFP to clients and even pushing the limit and saying like this is something new that our strategy group hasn't tried yet, but I think that we can do it that I wouldn't know like who to bring in from the collaborator network. So how do you. I'm going to share like what you're working on and then do the collaborator network kind of pre populate, raise their hand, say like here's what I can offer to that. How do you kind of balance all of that?

C I think it's a mindset and it's a mindset that at this point the entire team has. It's actually really magical. RFP comes in or a project comes in or we're stuck in the middle of a project. The team now will think about our collaborator network. Who should we bring? And even maybe someone that they met recently that isn't a collaborator yet, but their voice should really be heard. And there's always more people than we can think of, you know, more people than we can invite that come to mind because I think of our mindset. So you know, with Mike, because we collaborate often, sometimes the conversation is like, okay, Mike, what do we want to Tackle next and we come up with something we want to tackle and we bring others around that topic, you know, to explore. But many times it's that the project comes in and just like you would pick a landscape architecture, I need an mep, I need a low voltage, whatever.

C We, all of us collectively in the team, look for opportunities to bring collaborators. And I think that's because we've seen firsthand how the conversation changes when you have those perspectives at the table. So it becomes quite natural. It's really at this point an instinct for the entire team to look for those opportunities.

D I would say I'm as frequently contacted by someone else at 15 to set up a time to meet or to talk as Jimena, because it is a cultural thing at 15 that we have this list of people that we can call on. That's just an open invitation. I'm assuming for many of us on the 15 list, that's the way we operate.

B I want to push this thought a little bit further because you've mentioned several times now, sometimes you'll have a project and you want to bring Mike on, Sometimes you brainstorm with Mike about what you want to do next. So is that for business development, like project pursuits? Like, when you're talking about these what do we want to do together next conversations, what do those conversations look like?

C We're constantly wanting to push and improve. From the very beginning, the idea of being a kind of hub for exploring non commissioned issues has been a part of 15. It's just a desire to again, collect great people around a room and try to tackle big issues. The idea always being that what we learn in that forum can then come back and inform our process and our projects with clients. And so when I say that we kind of get together, it's like we're really interested, for example, in advancing post occupancy period. Like, if we're saying that our process delivers better outcomes, then we really need a better way to demonstrate that, that what we are building, designing together, is better.

B Coming from the world of workplace experience, yes, we are constantly chasing the post occupancy survey.

C Yeah, but it's been quite limited in the past. Right. Like, and so, for example, that's something that we want to invite a behavioral psychologist. We want to invite others who are going to help us understand what are the criteria, qualitative and quantitative, that we need to be evaluating to demonstrate. And that's just the topic as an example. But these are things that they're not just for the sake of brainstorming. We really see Them as opportunities to bring that knowledge back and to better inform our processes or, you know, what we're doing.

B And I don't want to put words into your mouth then, but then I just brains, like just hearing what you're saying. Then I imagine there's an opportunity to say, how do we continue this relationship with the current client that we have? And here are kind of other services that we can add on to continue to bring additional value to them that also, I imagine, kind of part of that 100%.

C I mean, even internally, outside of our collaborators, we have a pretty diverse team. Although many of us are architects in training, we have a visual artist in our team and her perspective and what she's able to bring to the table can often become just an added layer. I think it's a constant pursuit to be holistic in experience creation.

D I, I honestly, I, I think you said it better than I would. I think it's really a matter of always making sure that you're adding value, whether it's the collaborators, the people you have in house, and really developing relationships with clients where, as you and I have discussed, where you're not, quote, unquote, like just designing a building, you're, you're actually providing them with a different view maybe of their, maybe you're part of the conversation around what their mission is and how their mission is not only put into a physical structure or a space, but also really having those conversations about how they get that message out into the world. Because the building is part of that message. Right. And that message is part of their branding, and that branding is part of how they think about themselves. Right. So really understanding how all these different voices can come into the conversation.

B So Mike, I gotta ask, as somebody who Ximena has said, you know, left traditional practice and has obviously explored a lot of different things, what do you love about working with 15 and having opportunities to work on architectural projects?

D Yeah, so I've never fully left, as I tell my students, I think architecture is probably the single best training. Right. Design architecture. Just how does a product designer, how does an architect take. I'm preaching to the choir here. But like all of the different inputs, various stakeholders, different good and bad, and actually try to realize something that is achieving that goal in the best way possible. So to me the education is applicable, whether it's for a physical product, for space, for a brand, or whether you are going into a hospital and understanding how they can improve their quality in cardiac care. To me it's that you're still have this sort of Juggling of all these different variables and all these different competing aspects of a project that make it so interesting.

D So when it comes to what we do, what 15 does, what I love most about it is the fact that sometimes we work on a project where we're making a physical object for space in order to help people feel more comfortable accessing healthcare services. And then sometimes I'm working with the team to interview physicians and individuals using a space and how that space can be better performing for them. Or one of the last times I was called in or we had a conversation was actually about, you know, how can we think differently about engineering education and hands on education. So as someone who's really interested in the power of design, selfishly, I'm given the opportunity to touch on all these different things that by myself I would never be able to touch on. So I guess from the collaborator standpoint, it's an opportunity to be brought into things that again, I'm not searching for the rfp, I'm not searching for this, I'm not managing a client. I really just get to come in, enjoy the process, bring what I think I can add to the project to the project, and then see how it evolves and see how I can continue to contribute. So it's, to me, it's an amazing opportunity. Right.

C And you know, maybe it's coming from an abundance mindset. But Mike, you made me think of when you invited me to your class in health and architecture and I was chatting about 15 and what we're doing and there was a woman in your class who was actually auditing your class, who was a nurse. She was a nurse practitioner and she reached out to ask if she could be a collaborator because she had seen the inadequacies in the spaces that she was in. Could she be part of our conversations? Because healthcare is one of the areas in which we work. So she came into the office to share with us why she wanted to be part of the process. And obviously when we are thinking about designing a new healthcare center, or more recently was a maternal health center, that comes to mind.

B Well, a lot of people and a lot of experts I feel, have a lot of, have a lot to say around their expertise. So how do you find those individuals that are truly of the same mindset that you are? Like, what is the litmus test in terms of joining as a collaborator and how you kind of bring them into this unique system that you have going.

C On more often than not. Like we've been in a room together having a conversation and it's someone that has the ability to think broader, regardless of whatever their field is and the ability to make those connections. We always. It's not that, you know, it's not that it's an interview process, but we certainly get to know each other before we're like an official collaborator.

B No, I mean, I get people who, oh, there was somebody that wanted to partner with me on something, but then they proceeded by telling me everything that I was doing wrong in my business. And then I was just like, I don't think this is going to be a good partnership. Yeah. Anyways, so I imagine you've had both good and probably great because I'm sure you're attracting like minded individuals, but I do feel like that you get these people that come in and try to interrupt the system as well.

C Yeah. Eyes wide open.

B Eyes wide open. What have you learned? Ximena, you've given some anecdotes, you know, with the archaeology dig, but can you recall some of the aha moments that maybe your collaborators brought to the table that you guys just wouldn't have really come to if they weren't in the room? And then, Mike, I don't know if you want to offer something similar that you were just seeing with your experience that architects might not be seeing.

C Yeah, one that is fairly recent. We're working with a group here in Philadelphia on a public space, pretty large public space that has a lot of potential. And we were talking about it in house. We held a charrette like we usually do. We actually call them design sprints. So even within 15, like I said earlier, we hold these design sprints and we within the group came up with ideas of what we could do there. We then gathered a group that included some of our collaborators and also included some experts around, specifically community engagement. Philadelphia 250, that's coming up.

C A landscape architect, somebody who had experience in workforce development, and a few others. And what was incredible was that when we had that conversation with those outside views, the project became not just about creating a nice place, but it became about could that space, for example, serve as an incubator for startups so that they could test, you know, some products or services on the people that are coming to visit because of its location? Could we engage the schools that are nearby and talk about how the students could have an opportunity to maybe have employment in the summer? Could we come up with some kind of engaging opportunities for students to learn new technologies, you know, by being part of this operation? And so it gave us an opportunity to think about the project in A way that, you know, results in that net positive, like create such a larger impact than creating a wonderful public space, which is already a really great thing to do. Like what we came up with as architects, I think was already going to, you know, obviously create great improvement. But the idea that by bringing these other people to the table and Evelyn, just to see someone who's not an architect, to feel empowered to draw and sketch ideas, put them up on the wall and say this is, this would be really great. But then know that, I mean, they don't have to know how to do it. Like we'll figure out how to do it. But to include that voice, I mean, she had the most brilliant ideas. And so we took the project in a different way, which I think is a way I hadn't really imagined.

D And to go back to one of the projects we discussed earlier around sort of a space within a health care facility for education of its, you know, the doctors, the physicians, the nurses, you know, everyone involved. One of the things that I found so interesting was it was in that project specifically, the client was really a collaborator as well. Right? Like their expectations, their thoughts around even the presentation style, like we completely throughout anything that was sort of slide based and everything became experiential because that is the way they wanted to teach in that space. That is the way they advocated to run their world. And so it pushed us to show up with models that can be drawn on. It showed us to push up with, you know, the AV consultant was sitting there like video videoing the entire thing in order to put that together. The person in charge of the, like everyone was there and everyone. And the client was pushing us to think differently, we were pushing them to think differently.

D And so it didn't, it wasn't sort of this line of, you're the client, we're the designers, and we have these consultants on the side, we call in for a meeting. It was really this amazing. I don't know, at some point there were probably seven, eight, nine people in the room, many of whom had different expertise. And everyone was contributing, everyone was drawing, everyone was evaluating, and everyone was seeing it their way. So I think when you think about sort of greater than the sum of its parts, that to me is, is that moment when I really, you know, I was into it. The collaborator model for sure. That was the moment when I was like, wow, like look what's. It's unfolding in front of me.

D Like if everyone could just see this afternoon, everyone would understand what we're, what.

B We'Re trying to Do I think both is great. But I also think, Mike, you know, as you were saying, that I think it's a testament him and to this cult that you've created. Because I do think that I do know of a lot of architect leaders who want to say that they are the collaborators, but they still need to be like the ones in front of the room leading the conversation. And that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't allow for this type of synergy in thinking to really see its full potential. Right. And the fact that you even call them collaborators, rather consultants, or there's a. There's even just the naming, the nomenclature that you use behind this network that you've set up, I think is very telling of what you are trying to do and how it's being implemented.

C It's always really nice to hear that articulated by someone else, because as you hinted at the beginning of the conversation or earlier in the conversation, it's different than what people expect, and it's different from what people are used to. And I think oftentimes our clients don't quite understand it. And so we are working to figure out how to evidence that this is really the way forward, that again, we're solving problems that first of all, there's going to be technology and things that we can't even imagine five years from now. We're solving problems that are really quite multifaceted. And so it just shouldn't be a question about is this the right approach or not, should just be how can we do more of it? But I think we need to, because it's different. It just requires a little bit of education. So it's really nice to see that you get it and you understand it. I'm not surprised.

B Well, no. And I see that both on the client side, but also just people coming in and joining the firm and what it means to run a project and work with your collaborators than to be like a. A project lead in the most traditional sense and. And run a project that way too. And I. And I imagine there's kind of been difficult conversations, or maybe not difficult conversations, but like, definitely conversations around, hey, we're all figuring out this out as we move, as we move it together. You know, some people say that we're interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary, and they're literally talking about different market sectors. So this is an.

B An entirely new realm. Being truly thoughtful and what it means to be interdisciplinary and practice. For me, this is like, there's a clear mindset shift that has to happen. But I do imagine that we have some listeners that are hearing what is going on at 15, and short of how do I work for 15, might be thinking, how do I establish or how do I begin to bring this type of thinking into my firm? Do you kind of have any lessons learned or tidbits that you want to give people to who are interested in beginning to think about what it means to replicate something similar?

C I think that's the goal. Right. And I believe so deeply in this kind of work that, yes, part of what we'd like to see is encourage others to practice in this way. And I think it's understanding that you need to be sort of flexible in creating new frameworks that accommodate this kind of collaboration. It might be difficult to imagine what your current firm, what it means for your current firm, but just start small. That's something that I learned also in the archaeological dig.

B Right.

C We were working on a project that wasn't going to be completed for 50 years and required a ton of funding, and we always just started small. And so invite someone that you think has really good insights, you know, that's not an architect, and bring them into your next peer review, you know, or bring them into your next visioning session and make room for them because they're there, and then kind of be blown away by it and become addicted.

B Mike, any thoughts on what you would tell, like, other architecture firms as a collaborator?

D I don't know what I would tell other architecture firms because I definitely want to defer to Jimena on the fact that she's operating an architecture firm. So she is the one who has to balance what that means for everyone involved. I would say as a collaborator, I would encourage, I think, to Jimenez point, the idea that you have to open the door and then make sure that when those voices come up, that they're heard and they're given the space. Because they might not be as when it comes to the spatial reasoning, they might not be what we're thinking. Oh, well, I can see X, Y and Z already in the plan, but by not seeing that in the plan already, it gives that idea maybe a chance to be seen differently or oftentimes my favorite part about design is when I have a what I think is a good idea and I put it out into the world and someone completely misunderstands it or misinterprets it, but their misinterpretation is better than my original idea. Right. And we've all had that experience. And I think the more voices we can get in the room that will misinterpret what we say, if you will, the more opportunities we have to have these ideas bubble up.

D And that to me is just that is the most exciting part about design, right? When it, when it doesn't come from one person, but it comes from the conversation around something. And then all of a sudden, wait, that's actually the answer right there. It didn't come from me. It didn't come from you. It came from the process.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disruptive. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.

C Sam.