Architecture, And: Building Across Disciplines with Mikael Avery

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Earlier this season, in episode 203, you heard from Mike Avery during his conversation with Fifteen where he explored their model of working with collaborators rather than consultants. In that discussion, Mike's perspective stood out so strongly that I knew we had.

B To bring him back for a deeper dive into his own story.

A Mike is a designer, educator, maker and healthcare professional working at the intersection of architecture, product design and health. At the University of Pennsylvania. He teaches courses in architecture, digital fabrication and health while also advising healthcare systems, collaborating with firms, and co leading a medical device startup. Today we'll explore how Mike has woven design and healthcare into a single career, why he sees architecture as a service profession, and the lessons his path offers for those looking to redefine what practice can be.

B Hi Mike. Welcome back to Practice Disrupted. Thank you for joining us today.

C Yeah, thank you for having me back. I appreciate it.

B So we just had you on a previous episode this season with 15 talking about your role as a team member and you know, I very quickly learned of your fascinating background. So before we dive in, how would you just start what you do now and then let's go back in time and work our way forward?

C Yeah, no problem. So now currently senior lecturer at the University of Pennsylvania, I teach in the architecture department and the integrated product design program. I also am part of a medical device startup as well as do work in medical device design sort of more generally.

B Great. But you didn't start there and I think that's an interesting combination. But you actually started by pursuing landscape architecture.

C Yeah. So in undergrad I originally went back to school for political science and philosophy. And what I loved about those two areas was this idea of asking deeper questions and sitting with a question for a longer length of time. And. But after a while I really wanted to be simple. I wanted to build stuff, I wanted to make things in the world. And for me, I was looking around in the university I went to did not have architecture, but had landscape architecture. And naively I sort of thought, okay, that gets me close.

C I like being outside architecture in the.

B World has architecture in it and the degree.

C Yeah, And I really didn't, you know, again, as a young kid, I didn't really think much past that at first. But then obviously I did some research, I looked into it and I realized, you know, from backyards to city planning, I mean, landscape architecture is really sort of, I think design architecture, landscape architecture really is sort of philosophy in action, if you will, if you want to look at it that way. I mean, that's sort of what turned me on to the world of design in a big way.

B But then you actually went back and did the architecture too.

C Yeah. So after landscape architecture, I spent about two years right out of that degree working for urban design firm that did a lot of community engagement work and decided that I really wanted to see what was on the other side of the building. Right. So we would make master plans, we would design sort of the structure of a neighborhood, and we would sort of give suggestions for facades. But we would stop there and I really wanted to sort of see what was on the other side of those walls. Actually, one person working there, I believe was an architect and he would do all the renderings for us. And I really wanted to understand like what goes into getting behind that. So once I had that realization, I switched careers or I switched jobs and I actually started working for a sole practitioner architect, very much like in an apprentice style.

C Two drafting tables. He was still drawing by hand. I was next to him. I was supposed to teach him cad, he was supposed to teach me architecture. I got a lot more architecture from him than he got CAD from me. But now he uses Revit, so he's clearly adopted it. But really that was sort of a really important time for me because he was a kind of architect that did as built drawings. He's a kind of architect who did residential renovations and new builds.

C So I really learned from the ground up. Walking through studded out houses with nothing on the walls, right. Taking measurements, drawing from scratch. And it really excited me. And during the time working with him, that's when I was applying to school. So that's sort of where the transition happened is it was sparked working in urban design. It was cultivated working for this architect. And then I was able to actually go for it.

C When I got back into school, what.

B Was the impetus to go from the urban design, a larger urban design firm, to the smaller practitioner? Was it a need for something like just different at that time or.

C I would say it really came down to the opportunity to work closely with. He had taught the architecture class in my undergrad, so I knew him, I knew he was A nice, friendly person to work with, but also the opportunity really to learn. Like the nuts and bolts. Like I wanted to know an LBL was. I wanted to know how you structure a building, right? Like, I wanted to understand what those lines in a drawing were that connected all the outlets. Like, I was really curious and I knew that working for someone who is still drawing all this stuff by hand next to me in a room not much bigger than the office I'm sitting in now would probably be an opportunity to learn, to really learn, you know, what the day to day of architecture is.

B So you ended up going back to school for your M. Arch. What did you do after that?

C So after that, my thesis while in school was about digital fabrication and found materials. And through that process I actually was connected with or found an individual, brilliant individual, who had built his own CNC machine and basically built an entire shop from the ground up. And, and he offered to let me use his shop, basically paying only as my jobs came in. And as a young graduate, you know, having very little overhead and an opportunity to pursue something you're passionate about is, you know, I thank him to this day actually to giving me the opportunity to pursue that. So that's when I spent about two and a half years doing digital fabrication work in and around Philadelphia.

B So for our listeners, what does that actually mean, digital fabrication? What type of products were you delivering?

C Yeah, so again, we only get as far as we are based on sort of the good graces of others, I would argue. So after graduating, another instructor at the university said, hey Mike, I have a project coming up. Can you help me make it right? So that was my, the big project. I could tell people, look, I can do stuff right? Like, look, this person trusted me to do it. So it was a huge opportunity. And again, I've thanked that person before as well. So. But digital fabrication, right, is sort of the designs are all done in the computer, but you still need to make them in the real world.

C So his machine, the CNC router, is a 5 by 10 bed with basically a router that moves around based on the instructions we give it right through the digital software. So I started out making this installation for this individual. I did some furniture pieces, I did some backyard fences. Some of them were a little more complex than just slats, but some of them were just slats and custom metal fabricated parts. But really I'm someone who loves the details and spending the time to figure out, you know, what a tenth of an inch or, you know, a quarter of an inch is going to do to the design and sort of working out all of the intricacies of a design. And that's what digital fabrication allowed me to really pursue work. And then it also allowed me to collaborate with architects and designers and even homeowners.

B And I would argue then, like you, you got all of this experience at what is, for all intents and purposes, a sole proprietor that you were working on. And he went back to school and needed architecture, and then he came out and did digital fabrication. Were you missing any pieces of being a part of a practice at that point, or did you just love working with and collaborating with architects?

C So during that time, I was still teaching, so that desire to sort of engage other people, other creative individuals, both fellow instructors as well as students, was fulfilled in that role. So the sole practitioner LLC part was really my opportunity to get the designs out of my head. So I don't know if I necessarily missed it in the way you're potentially phrasing it, because I was still able to engage the larger community of designers through teaching. And also at that time, as I suggest to most people coming out of school, I spent time networking, I spent time going to events, shaking hands, getting business cards. So I was still very much in the field. But at the end of the day, when I would go back, I would be at my computer doing that sort of solo work.

B So when did you get into this occupational therapy? What was going on in your life to make you want to explore that more?

C So after, it seems like two to two and a half years at that age was sort of my time limit before I started thinking, hey, what else can I do? I was sort of getting excited about seeing what other possibilities were out there. And for me, it came down to, what can I do with this degree that allows me to sort of have a slightly larger impact, not mostly just making objects that are pleasant or beautiful, but objects that potentially have a larger impact on either people or communities or whatever that might be. And I started looking around, speaking a lot with my wife. We had a young daughter at the time. So the question is, like, really, are we going back to school right now? Is that really what's happening? But I landed on, or we landed on this idea of going back and thinking about occupational therapy, because occupational therapy, you know, you could argue nurses and occupational therapists are often the ones who are sort of figuring things out, hacking things together, solving problems on the fly. And that was sort of like design in healthcare, right? And to me, that was an opportunity to learn about this other field from the ground up. Get all the benefits of really understanding what these folks know and becoming one of them myself, and then bringing in design or bringing it into design, however you want to argue for it. But really this idea that by learning it from the bottom, by going through that process and then practicing, which I did do for a couple of years per diem, was really be an opportunity to feel confident in what I was saying.

C I knew I didn't necessarily say I can do design work without ever having sort of been in it.

B So you said you did the two years and you wanted to do something new, but there's a lot of things you could do new. So what was the attraction to. To specifically occupational therapy and the work that these providers do and the link back to design?

C That's a good nuance to point out. I think for me, it came down to, again, the fact that this is a group of individuals that is sort of, whether certain practitioners know it or not, some definitely do, really is deploying design in their everyday life, and they're doing it to directly impact an individual. If there's one thing about ot, it's often so focused on the individual that practitioners forget that if they zoom out, the things they're doing for an individual can actually help a larger community or multiple people.

D Right.

C So as a designer who is always looking at that scale of activity, whether it be buildings or objects or landscapes, we bring that idea that our solutions are for many people into the work we do as designers. So for me, it was just fascinating to take on that role in healthcare where you're really focusing on like understanding a person, understanding what their needs are, and then working to solve it. And I guess from the very beginning I was thinking, you know, how what are the skills I want in order to move on to the next thing? And I never really planned on being an OT and moving on from design. To be clear, I was seeing OT as sort of what are the skills I want to learn, where can I learn them, and then what profession can I also participate in that I find stimulating and intentionally very different than design. I didn't want something design adjacent again.

B Did you know anyone that was in the profession? Did you had a family member? Were you going through, like something yourself? That connection is kind of like an interesting one to make. You know, I was one of those students that were told, and I was told by my father, I was told by my professors, you can do anything with an architecture degree. And the medical industry is so vast and huge, and the different roles that you play, even from the administrative side to the practitioner. So. So it's just, it's still interesting to me that you found your way there, I guess. And I'm gonna going to dig a little further.

C No, that's good. So my wife works. She was a teacher, principal, vice principal, various roles in special ed. So she was familiar with OTs and PTs and speech therapists and all of those things. So when we were speaking, my brother is a doctor, surgeon. So the healthcare world was not too far from my thinking during those conversations, I guess is the missing piece that sort of opened that even as an opportunity. Because I think maybe to your question, most people don't even know what OT is, right?

B And then you decided to go and pursue a master's and that's like not a small commitment.

C So that definitely is the sort of the family connection to it. But then just like, you know, making a network and building connections, I did the shadowing thing, right. I. I found pts that would let me hang out in their gym. I found occupational therapists who would let me come to the hospital and so on and so forth to understand what I was getting into. And if this really did seem like the right fit.

B No, that's really great because I feel like, you know, when people talk to me about alternative careers and what's next for the path, there's a book out there, Designing youg Life, and they, the authors always recommend prototyping a New Way Forward. So for me, those instances where you were shadowing OTs, whether it's in the hospital environment or even their personal gym, their personal office environment, for all intents and purposes, for me, that's a way that you could have been prototyping your next steps before diving all in. So now you have occupational therapy and architecture, always with the intent of expanding on the design side of your thinking. What did you do next?

C So during that whole time, even when I went back to school for ot, I continued to teach. Another moment where I can be thankful for others was they. Some of my classes we were able to shift sort of away from scheduling, right, to schedule around everything. So again, I was able to continue teaching because of, because of that flexibility. So when I got out of school, I was still teaching and I decided that I would practice as an ot, because it's one thing to go to school and learn from a book, it's another thing, right? I'm talking to an architect here to actually do it right in the real world, if you will. So I was fortunate to get hired by Penn Medicine and I worked as a. Like I Said a part time per diem employee doing home care. And so I loved home care because it was that to me was the sort of intersection.

C It's. You're in someone's physical environment, you are actually looking at their physical environment as one of the components that you can modify or impact to help them achieve their goals post surgery, post traumatic event, whatever it might be, or just health condition. So for me, the home care was a natural place to land after leaving school. And I, and again I did that for about two and a half years leading right up to Covid. And that's when at that point I was only doing Saturday shifts at that point anyway. So I decided that at that point I was on a focus and teaching ramped up and other things ramped up. So it just naturally fell off.

B Can you go into a little bit more in depth at what you do now? And you are teaching but you're not necessarily a lecturer in the architecture school. You're in the design realm. But it doesn't fall squarely under.

C It's a little bit of both. So technically I'm a senior lecturer in the department of architecture at the University of Pennsylvania. So my courses and all of my electives are very much architecture focused electives. There's a class for design around health, there's a class still on digital fabrication that I teach and then there's a class furniture design that I co teach with a furniture designer from New York City who's super awesome collaborator to work on that project class with. And so those are rooted in architecture. The majority of the students in those class are architecture students. The other two classes I teach are in the integrated product design program. And the interesting thing about the integrated product design program is at Penn is that it's actually a collaboration between sort of the worlds of business, the worlds of engineering and the world of design.

C So we actually get bring in students from all three of those fields. And outside but tradition, typically students are coming with one of those backgrounds and wanting to learn about the other two. And in that I get to teach with Sarah Rotenberg the first and second studio courses in their first year. So I think that's, it's a, it's really nice because I'm able to sort of see these students come in, teach them over the course of the year and then see them come back because it's a relatively, it's not a huge program and I get to actually see them all come back the next year with all those skills and that internship and then they take on their final project in their second year.

B And then you also mentioned that you're at a medical device company too.

C Yes, so I work with Solution Medical. We're developing treatments for adrenal insufficiency, adrenal crisis. And that's something that requires reconstitution of a medicine and delivery when the emergency happens and when the need is there. So we work together to develop this product. And I'm also working on various sort of rehabilitative medical devices as well.

B Have you ever been worried about how you kind of cobble together at the end of the day? I feel like there's a lot of anxiety around, like having multiple different income streams and making sure you can. At the end of the day you're still making ends meet, balancing life and time with family. You mentioned you had a daughter. How do you have conversations with yourself about that? But also how do you kind of wrap your head around everything that you have going on?

C I also have a son as well, so we have two kids and my wife and the family. I'm sort of using the word fortunate a lot. But I think in preparing for this and thinking about our conversation, I really, if anything I gained from prepping for this was this idea of being fortunate because being a teacher, being someone who, you know, part of that role is really, for me at least, is bringing these insights to the classroom. I see the work as not only personally stimulating, but, you know, if a student in IPD says to me, I want to have a startup, I can actually talk to them about that in a way that if I was not engaging in that work day to day, I couldn't. So I really see them very much as, I guess as a one total career with different facets than competing elements that are fighting for time. Now obviously there is a limited amount of time in the day and all of it requires juggling. But you know, just before this call, I was preparing a new lecture for the furniture design class because, you know, my co instructor and myself are always thinking, how can we make this class better?

D Right.

C So we're making new lectures for it. So I don't really see the trade offs. I really see them all building on each other. And I make the time to get all of that done because I value all of the responsibilities and people in those roles and I want to make sure I'm showing up for all of them.

B So what's interesting to me about your path in particular is that you've been very proactive, I think, in forging your way forward. So many people talk and I literally Just finished another practice disrupted episode yesterday about deviating from the past. Was there ever just in your mind, one, one path for you that you stepped away from or for you, was it just like how you move yourself forward and defining what that is?

C I never really saw any of these moves as leaving a path. I guess to answer your question, I've always sort of thought, what is the next interesting thing that will, to be clear, like propel my career forwards? Right. I'm thinking long term in mind, but what's the next thing that can sort of, that is exciting me, that seems relevant, that's exciting me that you know I can make a living doing exciting me that I can contribute what I think I have to offer to whatever context that might be. So it has been, like I said, I've really just seen it as the development of a career. Not necessarily I did this, I stopped doing this, I did this, I stopped doing that.

B So when you meet a new architect who is at a firm, how do you describe to them what you do?

C So I'll usually phrase this as. And I truly believe I'm sort of an educator first and that oftentimes shows up as a teacher in a classroom 100%. But also that idea for me about being an educator is that you're constantly exploring and asking questions and unearthing things. So I put this all under this idea that I'm a designer and an educator who applies those skills and techniques in various ways. Sometimes it's teaching, sometimes it's as a practitioner, sometimes it's, you know, I just got an email earlier this week from a student saying, hey, I'm an architecture student, I'm interested in this other field. Can we have a coffee and can we talk about it?

D Right.

C So to me that that's also part of the sort of like, how do I help this person navigate these questions? That's a design challenge, right? Like, because I want to be there to help them, I'm not. This is not about me in that conversation, it's about them.

D Right.

C So how can I be of service to the various constituents, if you will, that I'm serving? And like I said, it's always as sort of this designer and educator looking to move whatever the ball is forwards.

B Does that conversation hold true? The designer piece, when you find yourself more in the health care realm too, is that understood?

C For me it is. So I no longer do the home care work, but when I was in these individuals homes, I'm thinking like a designer, I'm problem solving like a designer.

D Right.

C And and even when it comes to sort of just dispensing, if you will, therapy, I'm. It's still a problem solving. That's again, what I think is so interesting about OT is it is very much an iterative process of try this, observe this, what can or can't they do in this moment? How do we get them from A to B? So even ot, I would argue, is very much, in many respects a design profession. It's just very much in real time. Sometimes you're grabbing a piece of foam, sometimes you're grabbing duct tape, sometimes you're grabbing whatever and you're assembling an object. Sometimes you're changing a plan of care, sometimes you're collaborating with a physician or a PT to come up with a new way that this person can move about the world. So, yeah, the designer educator is true across all of those professions.

B I would say in your last response, you comment about how you inherently present, I think, internally yourself within the medical realm as an ot. But if you were to show up at like a medical conference, how do you introduce yourself to that audience still.

C As a designer and educator first? Actually, I will still. For instance, if I'm giving a talk to which I did maybe a year and a half ago to a nursing conference, I was a designer and educator and ot, it's all three of those things. But I think that, for instance, you, you brought up the company. For me, sort of the idea of incorporating human factors into everything we do is a culmination of being a designer, being an educator, and being a healthcare professional. And I sort of, if I make my own little Venn diagram, I sort of, I didn't go a traditional product design route. But if I take the skills of design learned through architecture and the insights and skills of an occupational therapist who is focused on people and people's abilities and to achieve, and I put those two together. That intersection, at least when I think it through, is sort of product design or urban design with a sense of accessibility or however, at whatever scales you want to start mixing these things at. That's how I see it coming together.

C No matter where I am or no matter the hat I'm wearing.

B My next question is, you know, architects are talking about how in many senses, design is undervalued. So when you lead with being a designer and an educator, do you find yourself responding to questions about the value that that brings to the medical field or do they inherently understand?

C So it's interesting because there's a couple different contexts in addition to the work that we've talked about. I've also had the opportunity to do some sort of quality improvement human centered design work at the University of Pennsylvania Healthcare System. So in that context, people are seeking out someone and maybe with that perspective, and I think maybe Penn is different because they actually have an in house, you know, quality improvement or transformation and innovation part to them. So I mean, I mean, I will give a lot of credit to those folks and just sort of as an institution, this is sort of built into their DNA. Granted. But I would say that when someone is looking to work with me or I'm again fortunate enough to be put in contact with someone who's looking for this kind of work, they're seeing the value of bringing that lens, the human centered design research lens, into their conversation. With that said, I would also argue that design and is probably the right way to talk about it. I, as a designer, am not going to be the person to sign off on the engineering documents before tooling is made for a critical component.

D Right.

C Because I'm not that person. Even though again, I feel very comfortable having the conversation with that person and very comfortable getting down and talking about fractions of an inch or millimeter. I also know that my training was not to, especially at that level, to understand the nuances of tooling.

D Right.

C So to me, again, it's design and it's design and engineering. It's designed and healthcare. It's design and whatever that other thing might be.

B We've covered a lot of ground. You do a lot of things. So what type of projects make you most excited? You're still teaching, which I feel like has been a thread, but as a part of who you are as both an educator and a learner. But yeah, what, what type of work are you doing that gets you the most excited these days?

C So I definitely think when it comes down to it, what excites me is the opportunity to work in all of them.

D Right.

C There's actually not one of them that I'd necessarily want to give up. So for me, education is still that thread because I love the engagement with academics and the students. And to this day, some of my most closely held relationships are either old students or people that I've just worked with for so many years. I wouldn't want to give that up for a switch to something else because for me, it all balances. And I really enjoy the fact that one day I can go and be head down working on Rhino, designing something, which is probably what I did three days ago. And then now I can think about developing or Enhancing a course that I've taught several times with this other individual. And then tomorrow I get to have meetings with people that I collaborate with in a business sense, or have our weekly team meeting in IPD to think about what the program should be in the future or add my perspective to that. So to me, it's just like to me it's all one big career.

C I really do have a hard time parsing out personally, those different buckets. And I think that's becoming evident both to myself and to you in the audience as we talk.

B How do you approach collaboration across multiple disciplines? Especially design threats are secondhand to us. It's something that we experience in studio and school. What about bringing people from the health care industry along and what does, what does that look like?

C So, yeah, you know, as I'm sure other guests have said, design is a profession that is built on critique. It's built on all of these things. I'm speaking to the audience here that they know what this is.

D Right.

C That is sort of the core of design is asking the questions, going through the activities, having the charrettes. I think in health care especially, even as a student, I would often think, can we even infuse more design into the education of it?

D Right.

C Because I was teaching as I was a student, so it's a very interesting mix to do both at the exact same time. So with healthcare there is much less, at least when I was in school. I know there's a lot of push in medical schools, nursing schools, OT schools, and many others that I'm not aware of to bring in these sorts of different ways of learning and different ways of practice. And still I think from a big perspective, a high level view healthcare, because when you make a mistake, someone is actually physically hurt potentially that there isn't going to be the same kind of risk tolerance for innovating on the fly.

D Right.

C So I think part of that is making sure that everyone in the room who is having this conversation, who is going through this charrette, understands the parameters, understands expectations and understands where everyone's coming from. And I think in doing that and setting the right tone, you're able to level set in a way that creates an environment where everyone can perform and contribute to their best and then get used to this idea of taking that risk as a group and seeing what comes of it.

B So we've talked a lot about how design translates to healthcare. Are there skills from the healthcare discipline that have unexpectedly benefit your work in design in new ways?

C Yeah, definitely. So one of them would be and this probably goes for most healthcare practitioners, but every 45 minutes to an hour, you're seeing a new patient.

D Right.

C So you're constantly iterating on how do I build rapport, how do I get this person to trust me? As I said, I was doing home care. And so the first time you knock on a stranger's door, they let you in because, you know, you've got your ID on and you look like your appointment time is now. And I'm there at your house. So I'm the ot, but they don't have to let me in a second time.

D Right.

C So if I'm not able to make a personal connection with them, I've lost. So I have like 30, 40 minutes to educate them if needed, on their condition, teach them the things I was there to teach and build rapport with them. And I've never been in this house. I have no idea where anything is. I don't know what I'm walking into. Sometimes it's very dark, sometimes it's very bright, sometimes it's whatever.

D Right.

C You can imagine the many houses you go into in that field. So really, the idea of iteratively just trying and learning how to make rapport with people very quickly and build that trust and build that connection, I think that is something that healthcare requires of its most successful practitioners. And it's something that to this day I still think has benefited me in all different aspects of my career.

B Yeah, I feel like as you're speaking this, and I don't. I mean, we have wonderful architects in our fields, so. And I know I tend to make generalizations, but I do feel like architects don't start with building rapport. And I think that could be. That's such a critical and crucial piece considering how few opportunities individuals get to actually engage with an architect. And too.

C Yeah, And I think it's. It's one of those things where I have to imagine, you know, young architect coming up through the ranks is getting a handful of opportunities to meet with clients, and oftentimes they're the person sitting and not the person engaging. So the idea in, in healthcare is, you know, whether you're training in school through field work or your practicums, or you're getting trained in the field. Your job is to engage and engage everyone, all different people.

D Right.

C Meet them where they are. And how you have that conversation, I do think is super critical in any field. And whenever I actually bring guest speakers into the digital fabrication class, I will always ask, what is the one skill that you look for most when students graduate and we have had digital fabrication folks from pretty big firms come in and his answer, and I ask him every year and he knows it's coming at this point because it's always new students, so they need to hear it is the soft skills. He goes, I know that if you're graduating from this university with this degree, you're going to know basically what I need you to know. What I need to know is that you can engage with a client, that you can take a project forward, that you can do all of those other parts of project management that are really tricky if you're not comfortable with them. So that really is, you know, the first time I asked that question, I didn't know what to expect. I just asked every year he consistently brings that up as the thing that he looks for most because again in the profession there's already an expectation that you're going to know certain things.

B You mentioned that you have a lot of students that you just had got were contacted by a student that's looking at alternative careers. So what advice do you find yourself often giving out to professionals or students who are earlier on in their careers that sees what you build and is like. I would like to create my own path forward to.

C Yeah, well, I think as you mentioned earlier in the talk, your instructors and I think you said, your father said design is architecture is applicable everywhere.

D Right?

C That's, that's what you said. And so that's often where I start. I am a true believer that what is taught in architecture school, what is taught in design programs, really has application in design and far outside of it. So I start by saying you have the baseline set of skills you need, so have that level of confidence. And then I'll often remind them that if they really want to start to look outside of what they've been trained in, to be curious and to really think through what are those other areas that are inspiring you and then dig deeper into them. But I think that's a pretty common comment. So I think to make it a little bit more actionable, I definitely encourage students to or young professionals. Once they do find that thing, develop that skill set, really put the time in.

C If you want to go into UI ux, learn the software, learn best practices, learn the language that those folks will be speaking in. When I talk to OT students who will often ask how do I get into design? I'll say, you know, you probably want to understand the language of design. So when you go speak to that firm professional, when you go speak to whoever you actually Sound like you've put the time in to learn something about what they do. And ideally you even have a project, maybe you've done it on your own, maybe you've, you took an online class, whatever. So you can say, look, I not only care, I'm not only showing you that I'm interested, but I actually have learned. I put the time into learn. And then I think, even if we think about how you and I were connected, you know, developing that network, learning who is out in the field locally and start shaking hands and going to talks, because I know that's what I did, especially when I still do, but that's what I definitely did a lot early on. Because you need to know who these people are and if you're, especially if you're changing professions, you need them to know who you are and what you offer beyond the resume, which I assume is now being screened anyway before it even sees a person.

D Right.

C And maybe that screener says, ha. Or the computer says it just kicks you out because you didn't say the right keywords.

D Right.

C So you need to know the people.

B I think one of the biggest takeaways I learned about the hiring processes outside of architecture, like, and even large firms apply this, right. You need to make it past the recruiter essentially to get in front of the hiring manager. So if you, but knowing the hiring manager, I feel like you've, you've placed yourself in a better position. One of the things that I tell students, and I don't know if you find yourself is like lean into the fact that you're still a student and you're just exploring new things. And I feel like anyone is willing to take a 15 minute call. Granted, I've turned a few down this year with my schedule, but I always tell them to come back and continue bugging me. But I feel like a lot of people are willing to take calls for students to talk about their own career and then answer any questions that the student may have.

C Yes, I give the same advice for sure. There is a certain part of being a student that opens doors that you know, upon graduation or upon being hired at a firm are no longer open. So take advantage of them as much as you can, when you can.

B So you mentioned very early on you kind of have this two year itch cycle or you know, you're always looking forward for to what's next, you know, what is next for you? Is there a next. Are you happy? Are you happy now?

C I actually will say yes to that question. I feel that with what's been brought together as part of this sort of, as we mentioned, sort of this career path that is a bunch of individual pieces brought together that I'm in a position where not to restate too much, but I like all the different components and I like how they play off each other. And importantly, I feel a certain level of fulfillment through all of them that I don't necessarily have that itch. I'm not thinking, oh, I'm spending all my time doing X. Why am I not doing, you know, Y? Instead I'm thinking, oh, look, today I'm lucky I get to do X and tomorrow I'm lucky I get to do Y and I get to do Z on Friday. So that's really something where, you know, I feel very, I feel like I'm in a spot that I can't imagine my 20 year old self thinking I would be in and as happy in. But I would say is a spot where being here now, it really does seem to be able to bring all of those things that I was hoping to do together in a productive way for all the different parts of it.

B What is your hope for the future of practice and the future of architecture, especially being an educator in this realm and having these conversations about the multiple different pathways that architects can take. Do you have a sense of where you would love to see the future of your graduates being engaged in or the future of practice evolving?

C Yeah. We have a guest speaker in the health and architecture class who makes a statement early on in her talk that is architecture is a service profession because our work is in service of the people. And so I think the more students who graduate and really appreciate that service aspect of architecture and design, I think the more in demand designers will be, I think the more we'll be able to show our value. To your point, sometimes people just think, oh, it's design, right. And it's sort of this extra thing. But I think when we phrase it as a service, we can start to talk about how essential design is.

D Right.

C Everything around us right now has been designed by someone. Almost everything, if not everything.

D Right.

C They're all in service of us. And I want to be in service of again, all the different people I work with, the businesses, the students, the university.

D Right.

C All of it. So really thinking through and trying to cultivate that sense of the service aspect of architecture and design and integrated product design, I think it would be a great thing for students to take away and for the profession.

A Hi Disruptors, thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted, if you like, the content for today's show. You can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.