Beyond the Tools: What It Actually Takes to Build a Digital Practice

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology, and create more sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. This episode is brought to you by Gelt. Firm owners, are you overpaying on taxes? I use Gelt for my business and saved over $10,000 in year one. Visit joingelt.com and mention Practice of Architecture for 10% off your first year. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted.

A This season, we have been exploring what it actually takes to transform a practice, not just talk about it. And one of the threads that keeps surfacing across these conversations is this: the profession has a technology adoption problem that has almost nothing to do with technology. Today's guest knows that better than almost anyone. Melvin Williams III started his career as a trained architect at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, where he was quietly being reshaped by something he could not yet name. While his peers were building design portfolios, he was drawn to specs, to systems, and to the operational machinery underneath buildings. He started his own consulting firm shuttered it when he realized he had not failed fast enough.

B We'll get into that.

A And he spent his years at Microdesk training and consulting AECO firms on digital transformation and learned that the real barrier was never the software. It was leadership, and more important, the culture they created. And it was the willingness to sit in the discomfort long enough for an entire organization to come out on the other side. Now at HKS in a new role as one of their digital practice leaders, Melvin is doing something the profession rarely attempts at scale— not just adopting technology, but building the internal culture and organizational clarity that makes adoption actually stick. This is a conversation about what digital practice really means when you get past the tools. Let's get into it.

B Hi, Melvin. So glad to have you on Practice Disrupted this week. Thank you for joining us.

C Oh yeah. Hi, Evelyn. Thanks for having me.

B So, we have been in touch on LinkedIn a lot, and I've kind of seen your evolution into this new position. Well, maybe a new position and a new attitude that HKS is creating around what it means to run a digital practice. But before we jump into what you are doing now, why don't you give us a little bit of your history and background of why you're in the AEC industry and where were you before you landed at HKS?

C Oh yeah. I mean, that's sort of, I guess we'll just, we can go back to where it all started. I mean, I'm trained as an architect, right? That was a journey to get through undergrad. And then once I was successfully completing that, I started my career at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. I think that's probably where fundamentally my understanding of buildings was reshaped. When you enter that organization, you come in as a trainee, you're rotated through all these line departments, and, you know, you quickly start to see architecture is just like one component of this large operational system. And it's like a regional organization, right? And so, I felt coming out of school, I felt like I was a designer, but I was suddenly working in a place that did not feel like a design firm. It felt like, uh, being embedded in infrastructure.

C And even though I didn't like it, what it was fascinating to see approvals, you know, maintenance contracts, procurement, all these operations. And then I start to realize and understand that like buildings aren't just these isolated objects. I mean, yes, there's context and yes, there's like designing and being, being aware and familiar with the program and all that kind of stuff. But it turned into like understanding managed systems. But I didn't realize that until like far later in my career.

B That's interesting. I actually had never, out of all the interviews I've ever done, I've never thought about the different perspective that working for even a government agency gives you over a portfolio, say, versus kind of the myopic view you have being an architect working on a project-by-project basis?

C Yeah. So imagine trying to cultivate a design portfolio of that kind of architect with that kind of exposure. It becomes very awkward to have a portfolio based on design work but you're really like a systems designer. I think my, my whole first 10 years of working was a very strange development, not because I wasn't fully understanding my place as an architect or, or as like a rising architect or whatever, because I kept being drawn to technical things like processes and, you know, so like I was more friends with the spec writer in the offices I worked in than I was anybody else. Do you know what I mean? Because I was so curious. About spec writing, uh, coming from design, like design intent. So it's just, I don't know, it's always been, feel like an outlier, I guess is the best way to describe it. But yeah, so that, so that, that whole PA experience just turned into this, started what I didn't realize what it started.

C It started this, this embracement of technology and it, and it all, and it was happening. It was like a slow progression through that experience because of like their tech investment at the time and what I guess what I, what they thought I, what they saw in me when they brought me on and what I did there. So it was, it really, it was a really interesting start of my career. I think I, I would definitely be in a different place today had I started at like a private practice or, you know, just a traditional architecture firm.

B Because you gravitated towards the spec writing and towards like systems design, do you think you would've felt more out of place? At a traditional practice than kind of the agency level?

C No, because it's like the delusion of design school. Like, you come out thinking you can design anything. So, so it's like I was an art— I was like destined to be, I don't know, principal in charge of design or something like that's kind of where my, my brain was always, was always focused. And then I started to see what I was really interested in and what I kept gravitating towards day in and day out. So ultimately I left the PA, but it was because I thought I wanted more and I, and indeed I did want something different. So that experience coming outta school, I was fluent in software though. I don't speak another language, but I'm very, I pick up programs really easily, software programs and stuff. So when I was there, I was training architects internally on how to use SketchUp.

C And I think this shift, this is where it happened. And I didn't know it was actually happening where I stopped seeing software as a drafting tool. And I started seeing them as like communication systems. So that, that's like, I'm teaching them how to use SketchUp, but then I'm also involved in like helping with 3D printing there too. And that was an, that was early adopters there. And, and it's like when you start to, when you start using file types when you leave design and you start looking at the design and file types and like looking at data, you suddenly start to see— at least I was seeing interoperability, I was seeing metadata, I was learning digital fabrication methods, and things were like not peripheral anymore. It was all infrastructure for design intent. And this is like early 2000s, so this was like '03 and '04.

C And so I was just fascinated by all of this, but I just didn't know what it meant. So now I can look back and say, yeah, that whole experience gave me this idea that buildings are organizational products. If we look at it as what can be provided to the consumer or the end user. But then technology, it's operational leverage. It's not aesthetic, you know what I mean? But I, but I mean, I'm saying this now because I'm like reflecting back on it. I hadn't, I had never thought about that this ever when I was really thinking, you know, design school is so competitive. And so you learn to acquire skills and keep them to yourself to maintain like this competitive edge against your, your, your classmates. And so my early career was like, I was just.

C Consuming, you know, exposure and knowledge and, you know, just like how to do things better to always have like this cutting edge against my competitors when I'm competing for quote unquote design jobs. But I'm like going in for design interviews and it's like I'm talking all this nerd stuff and it's just, I mean, now I probably would have become like a computational designer or something like that. I don't know. It's just a weird, you know, it's like circuitous. It's not binary.

B At some point you did step out of traditional practice and you went in and started your own consulting firm, right? MW3 Consulting. How is that related to kind of this evolution for you?

C So, my father was an entrepreneur and in sales. And so, when you're exposed to that kind of business mindset, I thought I wanted to also be an entrepreneur. And so I got a little jaded with my experience in the industry. And so I found, and then it's like when you start thinking about starting a business, what do they tell you? It's like find a niche, you know, or like find a need and serve that community or whatever. And so the need was, I figured, well, if I don't like doing the stuff, I felt like I was overtrained to do a whole bunch of things, right? So I was like, okay, well, I'll just create a services, a service business for architects and I'll do all the stuff I hate doing, but I'll figure out how to hire people to do it and sell that as a business.

B So doing all that stuff you hate.

A Yeah.

C Yeah. And I figured I could like, I could win by getting paid for it, like getting really, really paid for it well. Right. And so like it started out okay. But what I realized is I didn't fail fast enough. And I didn't have like basic things like a pro forma or a business plan. I was just kind of like, I was like going after it like cowboy style and it just, it just didn't work out. And so like, plus I was young and I was kind of like, what, like filled with hubris and I was like, didn't know how naive I really was.

C You know what I'm saying? So it is what it is. I mean, it was a great experience for me, but like if I started that business now, it'd be totally different. but, you know, getting incorporated, getting your EIN, all this stuff is easy. But it's like when you're really trying to get clients and, and then it's like when I really tried, it was when I said it didn't fail fast enough, it was like I wasn't going after clients enough to get used to failing, to then figure out how to like sell the business. So I eventually I shuttered it because it just wasn't, it wasn't really doing anything, but it gave me Like, I feel like as an entrepreneur, or at least with that entrepreneur mindset, I was actually able to get a sense of what it's like and then get a taste of what I don't like either, you know?

B So I feel like there's very few people that are like, let's make a business out of all the things that I hate to do.

C Yeah, it doesn't make sense. But to me, I'm telling you, it made— it mean like it was like napkin sketch, brilliant idea. I was like, oh, this is perfect. But, you know, it just didn't work out that way.

B So, so what's interesting when you talked about teaching people SketchUp, you then found yourself at MicroDesk training and mentoring AECO specialists or people on design technology. Tell us about that role.

C So, what's funny about that role is it's directly connected to my experience at the Port Authority. So the guys that hired me at Microdesk were also— the Port Authority was their client. And so, like, I don't know how many years have passed, like, probably like 15 years since I had left the PA. So that whole exposure of just learning how to treat people, treating people the way you want to be treated, and being respectful and courteous and all that kind of, like, human-level stuff in corporate America, it actually paid paid well because, or paid me back because the moment they saw my name come through, they're like, hire this guy, we know him, hire him, right? So I was like already vetted. And so what was scary about that transition was I was leaving what I always wanted to do since I was 13 years old. And it's like when you go into a support role, you are literally divorcing yourself from practice, but you're also realigning yourself practice. And I'm really grateful for that experience because it gave me this insight in business and operations and client-facing sort of conversations and looking at the symptoms of digital transformation in ways that are not about software. It's all about leadership, really.

C It comes down to leadership, 100% leadership. And that really means the people that are navigating that, that organization that have no idea what the technology is, embracing the willingness to, to let it be very uncomfortable for the entire organization until they get to a point of like competency and adopting new skills and, and new methodologies and new workflows. So it really is, um, that whole MicroDesk experience was was crazy. I mean, it was, it was, and every day was different too. So being a consultant, you're, you're sold as like services, right? And then your skill sets and competencies go into the client, whatever they are. So that was a new experience for me because as a, when I was practicing, I never really got exposed to client-facing meetings or any of that exposure. But now here I am, in front of like owners and leaders and all that kind of stuff. And that was really fun.

C But then it was also kind of crazy because I've been laughed out of conference rooms before and because I'm coming with such clarity that nobody can really hear me. And so that was a training too, to understand that like, well, you have to learn how to talk to people in ways that they can understand. It doesn't— you don't need to be the smartest person in the room, even though you are. You simply need to be able to convey messaging that they get so they could do what you want them to do, right? And so it's sort of like learning soft skills in a way that promotes progress, understanding, unification, giving ideas to people and literally handing it to them, letting them own it, and then actually letting that idea come back to you. Like, isn't this a great idea? Like, oh, it sure is. Let me execute that for you. You know what I mean? It's like, it's in a way it's manipulative, but at the same time, you know what's best for a client sometimes, even though they don't see it. And it— and the challenge that I found invigorating was convincing them or showing them that like this really is the path, no matter how— no matter the struggle, this is how we should do it.

C And, you know, just trying to get them on board to do that. So marketing was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that.

B There's so many things that I wanna begin to touch base on in this, that story alone, just because I, I feel like a lot of the posts that you and I find with each other interacting on, on LinkedIn is really talking about the necessity for digital transformation, this tension between the uncomfortable nature that people have to sit in for that transformation to actually happen, and kind of the lack of space that we give that transformation in practice.

C No, no. I mean, that's, that's it. It's, it's like tech adoption for our industry, for architects specifically, technology has always been like a tool or like some sort of process. Now it's a part of business and it's not even overhead. The way I look at it, the way I, the way I see technology and tech adoption, it would be— is this analogy, I think, of like, if, if you're an architecture firm and you're doing traditional architecture in any market sector and you don't have an interior design department or interior professionals, you would hire or figure out how to acquire an interior design firm, and that would now be a part of like your firm. and you guys would go out, but you would never bring on interior architects or interior designers as like an overhead. And you would never— they would be a part of like a collaborative process to the business and the bottom line. Technology now, especially with data, it's a part of the business.

C And it's like, it's not about Revit. It's not about BIM. It's literally about, uh, workflow and like the business bottom line. So it's not like I, I know everything. It's just I see things that are always consistent, especially when I was consulting. It's like you go into these different offices of different sizes, different market sectors, sometimes different parts of the country, same problem everywhere. Nobody knows what they're doing, but everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing and nobody wants to to do the bridge building to get to where they know they need to get to. So, they bring in a third party.

C And the third party does everything they're supposed to do, everything they were hired to do. But when you leave, you have no idea if the organization is really going to pivot and embrace and cultivate and learn and grow and evolve and innovate. It's really messy. I mean, it's a really messy— that's probably why, why I like it, because maybe it gives me like, like the sense of like looking for problems and, and like trying to figure out the solution, you know?

B Right. I want to go back to this idea of technology and even technologists within firms being overhead. So for the longest time, and I'd love to get your take on this, the people that were being hired on as BIM managers is really ultimately to, I think first and foremost, you would, they tend to create a library, right? They, they organize the library, the Revit library. They become an IT help desk for anyone that's having trouble with the technology. And the ones that were better positioned were maybe kind of doing what you were doing at, from a micro desk position. Where they were trying to help educate and raise the level of intelligence and the adoption of those tools inside a firm. But they were never, as you said, like an integral part of the design process or design solution.

C Yeah, that's 100%. I mean, and you think about the evolution of it, right? It's like the way the industry works, it works off this like centuries-old methodology and technology of 2D drawings, regardless of how they're produced. It's ultimately 2D drawings, right? And those innovations to, I don't know, make 2D drawings more efficient or whatever have come in slowly. When you think about like hand drafting and then like how that was optimized and then for printing and they're like all these different printing techniques, right, to do all that. And that's all— this all predates me. I came— I come in and like AutoCAD and it's like self-taught AutoCAD. And then you start to realize, oh, you can make these things faster with like Lisp routines and all this kind of stuff, right? And then it turns into Revit or whatever, Rhino 3D and stuff. There's never been like a leap or evolution to leave the 2D because that's plan, section, elevation.

C That's what we all know, like the back of our hand. So no one wants to leave it. But when I was coordinating off of 2D plans and sections and like doing like mental math of heights of ducts and pipes going to the MEP drawings and then just like trying to visualize all that stuff, for me it wasn't that it was hard, it was just a lot. It was like super intense, right? But then I discovered how to do this with, with software. And I'm like, why would I ever want to go back to that? Why would I ever want to go back to 2D? Because when I was learning how to use SketchUp back in the day and learning how to use Revit, I was actually— I'm sorry, AutoCAD. I was drawing stuff in AutoCAD and then rebuilding in SketchUp, right? And so I was literally training myself to work in 2D and 3D at the same time. And that's exactly what Revit does. But you'll start to— you'll see if you do this long enough, you'll see people leverage that 2D methodology in every single new software that they use.

C So there's just like a— it's almost like a polarity disconnect, like, like everyone knows what they're doing, but no one knows how to use the software to, to do what they want to do, I guess. So that resistance is weird. It's like, it sounds like it's like if you— if I were to like listen to us talk about this, We sound like we're kind of like stabbing in the dark. It's not that we're stabbing in the dark. It's that there is so much resistance to leaving what we've all been trained to do, to do it better, that it's like everyone is like, why am I going to learn something new when I already know how to do my job? So why are you giving me this? I love this horse and buggy. Why are you giving me this Tesla? You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't need it. I know exactly how long it takes to get to point A to point B in this horse and buggy. Who cares about now I gotta worry about all these other things? And it's like really weird conversations like that, right? And so over time you just get to learn the symptoms, the reasons, and then try to help people bridge those gaps.

C I don't have an answer. I wish I did. Like, I wish I had the answer, to kind of motivate change. But I think it really comes from leadership. I'm not talking about like product, I'm talking about like owner, name on the wall leadership has to adopt the transition. Because if they don't, if they're not invested, your downline staff would care less, to be totally honest.

B Well, and then I would even argue that in the earlier days when I saw CTOs being elevated, right, to CTOs, It was really just like they were also like kind of getting their hands slapped about like, well, really, why do we have to increase the technology budget this big? They were just kind of more or less monitoring hardware and software usage, but not necessarily empowered to talk about how this technology can strategically align the firms better.

C No, I mean, that's I mean, I love that example because, yeah, you're right, it comes down to like what— what I think what leadership misses in firms in, in that example you gave is project execution to systems design. And so project execution, they already know, right? They've been doing it for decades. They know it. It's almost like if you get rid of the computers, people that know how to deliver hand can still technically do it, right? I mean, it's like you gotta acquire all the tools and all that stuff, but you, every, we all could do it. It's like, at least if you learn how to draw by hand, but it suggests that the profession is like in resistance of itself. So it's like architecture can't really remain centered on artifact production. It has to evolve towards system level thinking about delivery. And when you start talking like that to designers and like, you know, dyed-in-the-wool architects, they get like inflamed by it because they feel like something's being taken away from them.

C But they don't seem to really see that information flow and business alignment is what your business is. You're doing it in this way that you can't translate it into what I just said because you've been looking at it in this one way for so long. But like the advantage, I think it's going to belong to firms that can design both buildings and mechanisms by which those buildings are delivered. That, and that's really what I see happening. It's like, that's the tip of the spear right now. It's like everyone is trying to figure out how to create, for the lack of a, for just conversation, this is not what's happening, but for conversation, it's like, how do you create manufacturer level drawings for buildings, and it's like, you're not manufacturing buildings, do you know? It's like, we don't manufacture buildings, but we're— but the technology is trying to push us towards— so you'll see it with like flat pack housing and like, uh, off-site builds and all that kind of stuff. But there's a divide, you know? It's like, it's— and it's generational, it's— and it's, it's fueled by technology and You know, if you talk, if you start talking to other specialties and other disciplines, there's the, there's the, everyone's going through the same sort of struggles with tech adoption and how to use it for delivery and all that kind of stuff. But I don't think we're all on the right page or the same page yet.

C I think it's coming. I don't know when, but it feels like it's coming.

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B I wanna talk about your latest role at HKS then. I think you stepped into the role. As the digital practice leader. You said you were loving your time at Microdesk, so what really gave you the interest to go back into, to practice at that point?

C That's a fair question. So yeah, I love consulting. What I mean, a couple things happen. I don't know if I should get into it, but like one was I missed architecture. Okay. Like I missed working with architects. I missed seeing like charrettes in the office. Like, I miss that.

C Like, I am, I'm a trained architect. Like, I missed all of that. And as a consultant, I was getting kind of tired of going in on 30, 60, 90, 120-day contracts and kind of helping firms evolve or transform or adopt technology, but not getting the satisfaction of success of them actually achieving their desired goals. And so it was sort of like hard to always start up because I'm super into this, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, I kind of like, I don't lead with my heart about it, but I know how this goes. So if I, if I find people that really want to do this, I'm going to give that. I want to impart as much information I have with them so they can take it. It's like, please take what I know and run with it. Like, work me out of this position.

C Work me out of this job so we can innovate. You know what I mean? That's kind of how I wish things were. So that's why I left consulting, because I just felt like I belong with architects. And I was just tired of— I felt like I was pretending to be a sales guy. I wasn't really— I was good at it. I just didn't feel I was being authentic about it. Yeah, that's why. And so, I mean, the position at HKS, I don't know, I think it's like manifestation or something because it was, I was always, you know, I'm always lurking on LinkedIn, especially with jobs and stuff, mostly just to see trends.

C Like, I'm not trying to find new positions, but it's like, you can get a lot when you start to see firms start ramping up to hire people and, you know, you can start connecting constellations to see what's happening. If you really start to look at that data. And so I was just curious, and here comes this, this Regional Practice Technology Leader opportunity in Los Angeles. And I'm like, no way. And so I'm reading it, and it was like the first time I read every single sentence, and I was like, I'm doing this right now. Like, this is incredible. And so yeah, I applied, and here I am.

B And I want to back out. So I said you were the Digital Practice Leader, but you actually entered the HKS as a Regional Practice Technology Leader? And when I look at that description, that is what we talked about, how technology leaders were, are managed or handled in a way by older firms, right? It's like firm-wide BIM implementation and advancement of the tool, I think, is where that piece has always lied. So talk about the evolution then to what it means to be a digital practice leader, because for me, That's the strategy job. That's the, I am overhead supporting all of you as IT help versus being an integrated piece of project delivery.

C If we understand that IT, information technology, and PT, practice technology, like you and I both know those are two different fields. It's like, It would be the comparison of like nursing and like a dental hygienist. Kind of related, but wildly different, right? Like there are overlaps, but different, right? So practice technology is the, the biggest problem our organization was having was adoption and, and like practice sector teams kind of aligning with the practice technology mission because it was seemed kind of like adjacent or in a support role. And I, you know, it's funny, I saw this a lot in consulting where I could tell when I worked with teams that I was hired to come on as a consultant, they had never worked with a technology consultant. And so they were managing me like I was a design consultant. Because they've never worked with me, right? And so that friction is crazy because they don't realize that I'm the subject matter expert to help you. Like, you're not—

B that's a really important distinction I've never thought about.

C Yeah, yeah. A lot of kerfuffles were like popping off because I'm, I'm kind of like strong in my opinion, especially if I know it's, it's the way things need to go. The idea of that resistance is real, and it's not anyone's fault. It's just the slow growth and evolution exposure I think our industry has to tech adoption. So when you look at practice technology, that word technology, it brings unnecessary distraction to the mission. And the mission, yes, it's overhead, but the mission is to help the bottom line in ways that leadership of the organization sees is will create like an X kind of result, like 4x, 5x, 2x, whatever, if we as a firm and organization adopt these methodologies and protocols. And so what ends up happening is now you're at the project level and you're leading people, you're helping your, your, your like your junior staff, you know, fresh out of school, undergrad or master's or whatever. You're helping that mid-level leadership, you're helping the project leadership, right? But to get to the evolution you're talking about, you can't, you can't really affect change.

C There's a difference of opinion, I think, where change can be affected by the bottom, from like the front line, and it can't. It has to come from both, right? Because if your staff knows better They're not always empowered to tell you to do better because you, as a middle manager, know better, right? Because you've done this before and you've done it 10 times for 10 decades, right? So, it's like—

B So, why would you change?

C Right, exactly, right? And so, that's where— that little middle part is where I love to be because I'm trying to figure out how can I convince this 25, 30-plus year professional that we can improve what they're already doing if you buy into what I'm telling you. And what I'm telling you is not Melvin's opinion. It's like what we know is happening in the industry, what we know is happening in our firm and other pockets and other studios, right? So it's a really interesting, I don't want to say dichotomy, but like it's an interesting ecosystem, I think. And so when you look at my new position now as digital practice leader, we've left— so what we've done is we've left, we've changed the title, we've changed— with the mission's the same, but, but now for me in particular, it's structured— one, it's a brand new role, so I can't really— I can't give you too much insight of what's happening and like what is aspirational, but it's structured to be parallel with our global sector leader. Okay. And so that intent is direct alignment. So that means I can talk to him just like I'm talking to you or talk to her just like I'm talking to you about insights and things that I see. But it's not always about that.

C It's really about operate. It's not about operating independently. It's about this position support to help the operations of the sector leader's vision, priorities, and business strategy, right? So they know what they're doing as a global sector leader. They know what they want to see as in results. They may not know how to execute that at a technological level. That's where I step in. And so working closely with them, it's— it hopefully that's, that's, that's what will happen. And I think it will because, you know, I mean, yes, the structure, it's still being implemented and, you know, so it's kind of premature to like outline specifics and all that.

C And, you know, maybe it's more appropriate to like come back in like a year to give you some like measurable outcomes and actions that I, that I, that I've set out to sort of see. But I think what, what's exciting here is that the downline now knows they have a fixture in that sector to help them push their technology agenda, whatever it is. And like, we're here for it. It's just I think it's a lot of like relationship building at this point, just for people to get, it's almost like what I, it's like I started over again for the region and now I'm just in this sector.

B So, but it was interesting, not only on your LinkedIn announcement, but, but kind of the company's LinkedIn, the company-wide, very public, this is a new way of looking at these digital tools to set it up as digital practice and to be digital first. Like, what does it really mean nowadays for architects and architecture firms to be digital first and to move in that direction?

C Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's reshaping digital practice for sure. I think one could argue if you're an architect and you're working in an architecture firm and you're embracing technology, it all, it's always like architecture first. I don't think like, it's like that, that's like a fair comparison when technology comes in. To the conversation. What I really think is happening is that if, if you're going to lead with digital practice, it's not— the distinction is not technical, it's structural. So it's sort of like, yeah, you can talk about, you know, managing models, resolving clashes, mitigate problems before and after scope, whatever processes, that kind of thing. But it's really how are you taking design intent all the way through and leveraging that design intent into a product. But I don't think architects necessarily always want to think like that.

C So it's just shaping the digital practice in, in a way to influence with like more informed decision making. There's so— it's all data. It's all data. Like when you look at any kind of project, when you start to look at how it's being being developed, there are all of these data insights now that we can gather that help our designers, that help our design green team, that help our leadership team, that help our marketing team, that help us as a digital practice team, you know? So it's structural. I think when you really think, when you look at it, it's no longer about tool adoption. It's all about how everything is structured.

B So I want to talk about then what would be the implications for the profession if we were to more broadly think like this? Where do you think, like, is this for you the next evolution of where the practice should be heading?

C Yeah, I mean, so yeah, it's sort of like, like that example I was talking about when I was coordinating with 2D drawings, then I jumped into this Product has been shuttered, BIM 360 Glue. And it was like, you know that emoji where your head, the head has like that mushroom cloud on top of it? Like you're— that's what happened to me. It's like I felt like something in my brain click. Because I was always looking. I have this in elementary school. We were given these tests to— I forget what it's called, but it's like, what are you going to be? What are you going to be good at when you're when you become an adult or whatever. And I scored really high, like in the 4th or 5th grade of like geometry. And like, I was able to, like, I'm, so I've always been able to see things in 3D.

C That's just, that's just like my gift, I guess. But when I saw that in BIM 360 Glue at the time, it was an incredible revelation to me. And it like, I was like, oh my God, I cannot believe this. right? And so when I started talking to architects about it, especially as a consultant, they were like, what are you talking about? Like, and I, and I, and I, it was just really hard to relate back. Do you know what I mean? It's like once you turn that corner, it's like you're not looking back anymore. So if we're talking about the profession, so like my, one of my goals as chair of the AIA LA TAP committee is to bring a lot of what we're doing in these large firms back down to like smaller practices just to show the, at least give an opportunity to see where they can improve their bottom line with what they're doing. So if they're in AutoCAD, okay, if you want to stay in CAD, we can still get you into 3D. Let's figure what that, let's show you what that looks like, right? If you want to change, but I just think it's an uphill climb because I don't think a lot of architects feel the need to invest and innovate because they can still do their job.

C Like, I have a really— I'm a pretty good friend of mine out here. He, uh, been working 20-plus years, you know, on his own. He has his own— he's won a bunch of awards and stuff. And I was— I'm always talking to him about technology, and, you know, he barely uses it. He's really into, like, building physical models, and he still hand draws a little bit.

B He uses CAD, I think, Somebody just yesterday asked me like, what is a T-square and why do you guys— like, do you guys still use it?

C Yeah, he definitely uses it. I mean, I don't have one anymore, but, but yeah. And it's like, he's fine. He knows he could kind of like move into technology, but just the way his operations are, there's no need. And I think that's just the industry. It's like we have, you know, a 30-person firm, the way they operate and do business. Leadership has already figured it out. So they don't want to, they don't see the need to change it.

C The one thing I will say though, that I, that's so surprising, landscape architects have been aggressively adopting Revit in ways that I had never expected. And it's, yeah. And it's because that, that's the deliverable now. And so landscape architects are figuring out how to get into Revit, how to figure out Revit works for them. And right before I left MicroDesk, there was a, there was like this huge uptick in like landscape departments, landscape companies, or companies with landscape departments requesting Revit training. And I was like, why? But then when you start to listen to them, they're adapting to market forces and they start to realize that we can figure this out for ourselves, for our industry. And it's like, wow, well, if landscape architects are doing it, why aren't architects aggressively doing it in a ubiquitous way. And we're just not, they're just not.

C And I don't have an answer for like why, but it's just, I guess inertia, right? Or I mean, you're, we're competing against like a centuries-old practice, right? Plus centuries plus, like, it's like you can't beat plan section elevation. It's really hard to.

B I do think that as soon as there is that, that architecture firm that are like, that like is able to find a different value proposition and be able to charge that different value proposition and make money off of it in a new way and start telling that story, then I think, then I think we'll start seeing the momentum of a shift. And maybe there are firms out there that are doing it that aren't even on my radar. If there are, I don't think they're telling their, their story well enough.

C Yeah, I agree that, you know, but I do— innovations that are happening are probably siloed and quiet for sure.

B But if I am a younger firm owner or like an emerging professional and, or like an emerging leader, a next-gen leader in a medium-sized firm, and I really want to make this mindset shift to more of a digital practice, how does that change who I hire and who I bring on into the practice?

C You're kind of asking, like, if you're a leader now and you're bringing on people and you're trying to digitally transform, do you bring on, like, competent Revit users or something like that? And the answer is no. Well, the answer is yes, but that's not what you should be doing. You should be training your entire organization on how to use Revit. And And the reason you want to do that is because unfortunately, Revit is the ubiquitous delivery tool. And so if you have multiple generations of staff, you should be aggressively encouraging everyone to learn Revit at a level that allows them to do their job better. So if we're going to argue that you have PAs that don't even know how to open Revit, well, that's a problem. They should learn. If you have a junior staff that are heavily dependent on Rhino and barely can poke a stick at Revit, well, that's a problem because you don't deliver your projects in Rhino, right? And so, so there has to be like a level set of understanding of what business you're in first.

C And I, and I think, and it's not this idea that I can pass, I don't want to say pass the buck, but like, I'll just pass responsibility on to someone else. And they'll figure it out because the digital process of what we're doing now isn't a procedural thing like CAD management. So there was like a CAD manager back in the day. And so the BIM manager kind of like became the replacement to that. But, but really what's happening is that the data that's being created in the projects has to be managed and leveraged in a way that helps the delivery process because the techniques in the project, in the project, I mean, I'm sorry, in the software might sort of like conflate or make things confusing, right? So it's like, think about like if you were, if we were going to take away all the software, how does the older generation mentor the younger generation? Like, how does that work? They probably look at drawings and they tell about anecdotal stories and They start to tell them about process and they start to show them how things should look. You know, they'll go through this whole, like, litany of things to build up that young professional. The problem that I've seen countless times is software has created these silos and the lack of adoption has, like, bolstered those silos or, like, has fortified the silos. That like, I don't need to learn this.

C So now what you've done is you've created this, this like gap in your organization because the brain trust doesn't know how to communicate what they know how to do to deliver. And the, the generation that knows how to use the tools don't know how to deliver. And so you can't— so you guys constantly— it's like the organization constantly like breaks itself So that's what I mean. It's like, I feel like I'm talking in circles, but it's like everyone has to get on the same page ultimately. And once everyone's on the same page, then you can start to see where it makes sense for your tech adoption to sit and exist. Because it might be, I don't know, you might make a simple decision that it makes sense to adopt some rendering pathway for for your in-house renderings. That might make all the difference for how you guys operate. I don't know.

C I mean, it just really depends on like what the tolerance for tech adoption is first and like how far does leadership have to go? You know, cause when I, I guess, yeah, when I was consulting, there was this one, if this is like before the pandemic, I kept getting, I would do tickets, right? You respond to tickets when you're not on engagements. And this one company kept giving us these very sophisticated questions. And it was fun because I was like, oh, I have to actually go research this a little bit and really understand what they're doing so I can come back to them with a solution or whatever. And I don't know how long this was happening for, but I eventually, I kept seeing this one name that kept coming up from the same company. And I asked him, I said, why does everyone from your company know Revit so well. Like, I've never seen this before. It's like very uncanny. And he told me something crazy.

C And I wish I could remember the firm's name. It's like a 3-letter firm somewhere in the Midwest, but I— they're like a regional dominant, but I don't really— I can't remember their name. But he said that leaders of the firm, they had like an all-hands and they told everyone that we're leaving AutoCAD and we're going into Revit. And everyone, including themselves, are going to learn Revit. And there's going to be— there's zero excuses, there's zero nothing. It's like a line in the sand kind of scenario. And he said, if people that don't want to do this, you know, you have— you can like leave essentially. And like, I don't know how legal that is, right, to kind of put a line in the sand like that in corporate to make everybody learn something.

C But when you think about what happened, Now that brain trust that was existing in AutoCAD is now in Revit. And now this team, the entire company was working at such an efficiency level leveraging Revit that I had not seen that before ever, right? And so when you think about that attitude adjustment by leadership to fully embrace the, like, you know, they say like embrace the suck, you know, like just go through it.

B Yes.

C Look what happens. You know, you have, you have random users at all levels at a high competency level of tech adoption. Now, who knows where they are now? Like they might be in XR now, who knows, right?

B So obviously there's this new title and position at HKS, and I, I know you wanna kind of see how that ends up playing out for you over time, but what would be your hope in the future, especially as more technology comes online with no-code and AI. And I would argue that everything you've talked about from a Revit literacy standpoint needs to also be translated into an AI literacy standpoint and what its limits and opportunity are. So, what do you hope is the mindset that we adopt going forward to really be more nimble?

C My hope is that there's rigor in the adoption, if that makes sense. So it's like, I hope that we, we, we go after the adoption aggressively, but we do it in a disciplined way that makes sense for the organization. And so, so that means, you know, if adopting agentic workflows to help with our contract reviews or document reviews or creating agentic tools that allow us to get out of pursuit into SD faster, or like looking at like where friction points are and leveraging it to like provide solutions for our business is our— is my hope. I'm really not attracted to like low-hanging fruit AI solutions with like renderings and all that kind of stuff because it's sort of one, maybe I'm a little jaded cuz I, I was a renderer and, uh, uh, professionally. So it's like I know how to do all that stuff anyway. So it's like, okay, big deal. But there's a lot of growth there and it's a lot of innovation there, but I just feel like it's not helpful for the creative aspects of the industry.

B Yeah. But I would say even beyond AI, from a technology perspective, what is the mindset that we need to be adopting? Going forward, or that you would hope for?

C Aggressive adoption and, and fail. Like, remember, MW3 Consulting didn't fail fast enough. You need to fail like every day using this stuff and breaking it. And, and like, not AI specifically, but like technology, because you really want to see what you can do to innovate on top of what you can do. And it's hard it's really hard to get there when there's a different mission or if the mission isn't fully understood by everyone. You know, so my consulting years gave me a lot of exposure to firms that everyone has the mission on lock. They understand it. And so delivery turns into this organizational play, not a series of ups and falls and pitfalls and, and like, friction instances that don't allow to innovate.

C It's almost like we will push it and break it. Now let's fix it to be better the next time. We'll push and break that. I was consulting for a company and it was crazy to see it because it was so interesting that everyone was on the same code kind of messaging. So I just think it starts really baseline attitude adjustment on tech adoption and then failing. Duarte Consulting has this image about the life cycle of innovation or something like that. And it's like a sine curve and has these little people on it. And it's like a dragon.

C And they're talking about when you take this leap into pulling up and when you take a leap into innovation. And then it's like the up part of the curve is like that's struggle to get there. And when you get to the top of the curve, you've arrived at your innovation point to start the process all over again, right? And it's sort of like you want to see that. And to be fair, I am seeing it, of course, at HKS, but I'm also kind of seeing it from my colleagues too. I think I want to— I'm being hopeful in the fact that I think the industry— I think that there is adoption happening. But it's kind of hard to know really what is happening outside of like your organization, right? So I think HKS is unique for the fact that we lean into technology in ways that a lot of firms can't afford to. And so for that, I'm fortunate. But then it also gives you kind of like a skewed lens of like what the challenges really are for like small firms.

C But I think if a small firm can get to an aggressive tech adoption momentum, they're going to be okay. But it's like, if they're really resistant to it still, I mean, it's good luck, man, because things are happening so fast. It's shocking when you start to really just pay attention to the Unreal Engine. For the listeners, just go look at Unreal. Engine and see what's happening there. If that doesn't wake you up, then I don't know.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is @practiceofarch. That's practice of A-R-C-H. We'd love to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

A Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.

C Mm-hmm.