Bonus Episode: Inside the Data, NCARB by the Numbers, and the Future of Flexible Licensure

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology, and create more sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Once a year, NCARB publishes a report called NCARB by the Numbers, a look inside the data on how people actually become architects, how long it takes, who makes it through, and who falls off the path along the way. This is its 15th edition and NCARB gave us an advance read before it went to the public. This week, I sat down with two people who know it well.

A Jenny Koeki leads data analytics and research at NCARB and has worked on 10 of these reports. And Gabriela Bermea, or Gabby, a licensed architect and NCARB volunteer who chaired the Experience Committee the year they rewrote a policy that handed more than 20,000 candidates their experience credit back. The headline this year is that the median time to licensure has dropped to 12.3 years. When I went through it, that number was closer to 15 or 17. We get into what moved it, why the number of new architects dipped even as the profession grew and the report's brand new section on pathways to practice. NCARB's effort to make licensure more flexible, more modular, and less of a single narrow road. Let's get into it. Hello, Gabby and Jenny.

A Welcome to Practice Disruptive. So happy to have you here.

B Yeah, thanks for having us.

C Thanks for having us. Yes.

A And thank you to NCARB for giving us an advanced read of the NCARB by the Numbers report. Jenny, I want you to. You know, for somebody who hasn't ever opened this report, doesn't know what it's about, why don't you tell us a little bit about NCARB by the Numbers?

B Sure. NCARB by the Numbers is our annual data report that we do here at ncarb. And it's basically just a real inside look at everything in terms of trends on the path to licensure, representation in the profession, trends in our programs and services. So the axp, the ARE certification, all of that, and we pull the data from our customers, NCARB records. So whether that's kind of like experiential data, like how long it took you from the time you started the AXP to the time you finished your last experience report, or whether it's self reported data like your demographic information that you have the option to include in your record. And sometimes when it's appropriate, we also pull in data from our surveys or any like studies that we've been doing in the architecture community.

A Nice. Now it's in its 15th edition, so it's come a long way, including multiple test changes. I would say write Evolutions and IDP to AXP in that time if I'm not mistaken. I also don't want to date myself. What was the impetus for starting it and how does it continue to evolve over time?

B Yeah, sure. So of the 15 editions of NCARB by the Numbers, I think this is the 10th one that I've worked on. It's one of my favorite projects at ncarb. I love to work on it each year. It started before my time at ncarb, but it really was, I think driven by our CEO Mike Armstrong. It was around the time that he started at the organization and he really wanted to provide transparency and insight into the profession and how our organization operates. And I think that he's really been a driving force in terms of NCARB looking inward and studying our own personal programs and monitoring the impact that they're having on candidates and on the profession and seeing where we need to make improvements.

A Does NCARB then actually when you say make improvements, like what does NCARB do internally with the Numbers then?

B Yeah, NCARB by the Numbers is really important for us as an organization. So we study kind of the ebb and flow of people moving through our programs and we use that data to highlight where there might be issues or concerns and where we might be able to make adjustments that could better serve candidates or just better serve the population. And so some of the changes that NCAR by the Numbers has driven in part was In, I think 2018 was the first year we looked at like attrition data, studying where people were falling off the path to licensure. And so we were really looking at kind of what the pinch points were in the path to licensure. And that in turn launched our study with NOMA on baseline and belonging where we looked into kind of from NCAR by the Numbers we could see the what of like where people were falling off. And we really wanted to know the experiential components happening behind that, like what were the driving, like social or firm factors that were impacting people. And so we partnered with NOMAD to do Baseline on belonging to dig more deeply into that so that we could see kind of both sides of the story. And then from there, I think it really has inspired a lot of changes, from launching free practice exams to retiring the rolling clock to the changes to the AXP that launched this past year in terms of adjusting the reporting policy.

B And even I wouldn't say that it can have full credit for Pathways to Practice, But I do think the data in ncarb, by the numbers, plays a big factor in informing kind of the whole scale changes that NCARB is looking at making to the licensure process.

A Yeah, I think I want to get into a little bit of all of that later in the episode. The top headline looking at the report is that the number of licensed architects actually grew in 2025, but the pool of candidates fell slightly, albeit it was 1% tiny. What are some of the other highlights that you want people to see or make sure they hear about in this year's reflection?

B There's so many interesting things this year. One of the things we added was a section on Pathways to Practice. Obviously, Pathways to Practice hasn't been implemented. We haven't made all of the programmatic changes that we're thinking of making. But the data in that section this year is really kind of trying to drive at the why behind it, some of the factors that are pushing NCARB to pursue changes to the licensure process. Because we do get that question from a lot of people of kind of like, licensure seems to be working out okay. Why do you want to change it? That data is really supposed to explain some of the reasoning, some of the rationale behind it, and I think that's really exciting. Some of the other stuff that we dug into this year was around exam retakes and fails, which is not the most fun data to look at.

B But I do think it's really interesting because there's a lot of myths around how much and how frequently people fail the exam. And so really what we saw is that a decent proportion of candidates do pass all six exams on their first try, which I think many candidates would find surprising.

A I was going to say, I don't think Gabby and I had that experience.

B No, that's a good point too, though, right? Because I don't want people to be like, oh, well, there's so many people passing the first try. I'm so discouraged. That's not what we want either. But at the same time, we don't want candidates to think that, like, most people are failing 20 times. The average number of, like, failed attempts is 3.3. So three between three and four divisions is pretty typical. But like somewhere close to 30% of candidates pass all six divisions on their first try too. So kind of anywhere in that scale is pretty typical.

B And so I think it's important to us to highlight for candidates that there's a range of expected experiences on the path to licensure. And whatever direction your path takes you, it's like within that realm of normal and expectation. And so people shouldn't feel too discouraged for whatever the process is for them and how they have to navigate that licensure pathway.

A Gabby, I'd be interested in getting your perspective on kind of the reader or consumer as an NCARB member on your end, what stood out to you in this year's report?

C So, for me, as an NCARB certificate holder, I think one of the most beneficial things of the NCARB by the number is being able to share this with the candidates that I get to supervise. Right. So helping them see within the relation of everyone else who's in the same space as all these other licensure candidate holders to say, look, you are on the right path. Here's the encouragement. You are moving up. We have more architect population this year, which is fantastic, but we are keeping an eye on that 15% or so of baby boomers who are scheduled to retire or looking at retiring over the next year. So those numbers are going to fluctuate. Now is kind of the time to use it as convincing data to get more people into the pipeline of pursuing architecture, of becoming an architect, and then really influence our member boards to say, how can strategies like pathways to practice help us move forward in achieving this goal of a much more representative body of architects in the built environment?

A So here's another interesting number, right? New architects actually dropped by 6%, even though the number of licensed architects overall grew. And I think we have this enrollment cliff that's coming up where schools are anticipating lower enrollment because less babies were being made during the recession. And then we also have, on the flip side of that, a lot of baby boomers retiring. So what is NCARB doing around examining those numbers and its potential impact on licensed architects overall?

B It's one of those things. And earlier when we Talked about why NCarbit the numbers that is also a factor in what inspired UNCAR by the numbers is that we heard for years these rumors that the profession of architecture is dying. We're running out of architects. And so we really wanted to dig into if that was true in my time here. So far, we haven't necessarily seen that reflected like the number of architects has continued to kind of creep upwards with fluctuation from year to year, but a general upward trend and the number of candidates getting licensed, while there's some fluctuation in this year, it did drop, and we are keeping an eye on that in part. 6% sounds like a lot, but it's a small number. So it's really not that huge of a change compared to last year. It just seems.

B Seems like it like in terms of like the percentage, the total percentage. Right. But like, it's not actually like it's like a couple hundred people, I think. Right. And so not to minimize that because it is important, but we do see a lot of fluctuation. We see a lot of fluctuation around programmatic changes. So once we announce whatever pathways to practice is going to be like, whatever those, the, the real changes, so not the, like, smaller changes we've made into the AXP and are, but like the big changes we fully expect to see people kind of coming out in bulk to finish the programs, because that's what we've seen historically. That's what happened when we transferred or transitioned from are 4.0 to 5.0.

B And so those kinds of changes really push people to move through the licensure process before the changes get implemented or to take advantage of any kind of strategic opportunities to do it and, you know, less time or whatever might exist. So, like, that's a factor in terms of kind of the general flow of the ups and downs that we see in terms of people getting licensed. And in terms of enrollment, NAB keeps reporting, like, relatively high levels of enrollment, like it grew again this year, which was a bit of a surprise to me, actually. And so we keep expecting it to happen. We keep expecting the baby boomers to retire. We keep expecting this drop, and so far we haven't seen it. So it could be waiting around the corner, you know, next year or the year after. Could be the year.

B Or we might keep saying we expect it to happen and it might never happen. It's tricky to anticipate.

A Gabby, you've actually talked about a lot about the importance of licensure and getting through licensure and kind of, I don't want to say fear mongering, but, you know, there are definitely people out there that are saying, you know, there's not enough art architects in the world. What's your typical response to all of this?

C My response to it is usually the people who are saying there's not enough architects in the world have not historically worked with other architects and seen the true value that is available for us as a profession. I think what's really interesting and why I encourage so many people to pursue licensure itself is that true autonomy, whether or not you work in a large firm or you work in a small firm, you have that stamp of trust that comes from your community, from your state. And if you continue forward in using that, you've demonstrated this knowledge to a much broader population than just other architects themselves. To be able to hold that professional seal is incredibly valuable. And I think that's where we take notes from our counterparts, from our engineers, from our medical professionals. The value of having that, that stamp, that certificate, to say that you have this authority is just overwhelmingly positive. And really, when I talk to students, when I talk to those who are licensure candidates on the pathway, it's describing to them, this is the completion of your goal, right? Or this is your next starting line, right? You just finished your 800. Now we're going to do another mile after that, Right.

C So it's thinking about this as a milestone, the same way, Evelyn, that you talk about fellowship, right? Like it is not the apex of your career. It's just starting it off. But you should pass that goal line, pass that milestone marker, fall else for the personal satisfaction and gratification. But you do offer a much broader expertise to society at large.

B I was going to say, yeah, I think it's important to NCARB that people feel the value of going through the licensure process. One of the things that we've really been hearing from a lot of our volunteers who have been working on pathways to practice is that they think that I will make candidates more confident in their skills. And I certainly hope that's true. But one of the things that we think about with the number of architects, we hear from people who want more architects and who hope that the changes that we're making to the licensure process result in more architects. But I also hear from people who want less architects because they're worried about competition. And so for ncarb, it's really not about more or less architects. It can't be, because what we're focused on is, is making sure that anybody who completes the licensure process is competent. And so it can't be a numbers game.

B It can't be about more or less. It just has to be about are they competent. And so while we certainly hope the profession remains healthy and stable, whatever that means to whoever is interpreting it, like, for us, it's really about maintaining the public health and safety. And that's our primary focus before we

A go into pathways to practice, which I think we have to talk a little bit about, since you've all said so much about it and it's something that I'm really interested in. I wanted to talk about the median time that it takes to licensure. So when I was going through the process, it was closer to 15 to 17 years. It's now down to 12.3 years. What do you think is helping move the needle? Because that's always been kind of a long conversation both on the AIA side of things as well as. Nice.

B That is a great question and one I think is super interesting to think about. So we have seen the time to licensure kind of creeping down. We think in part that's due to some of the programmatically changes that we've made. So the changes to the rolling clock reinstated divisions for some people which got them closer to being are complete, for example, and also gave people some, you know, renewed momentum to get through the exam. And the changes to the AXP similarly that launched this year when we adjusted the reporting policy, we kind of reinstated additional experience credit for a lot of candidates. So a lot of candidates either became immediately AXP complete or got much closer to completing the axp. And so between those two things, that kind of like pushes a group of people kind of there's like a little swell, right? It pushes them closer to licensure. And so that can kind of lead to short term reduction in the time to licensure.

B But at the same time we might see that number go up in the near future because candidates who maybe stopped testing a while ago because several of their divisions expired, but now they got exam credits reinstated might come back and keep testing. And we hope they do and finish the exam. But then their time to finish the exam would be much longer than average, right? Because they took time off. Similar for the AXP candidates who may be had a lot of hours that they could have reported 10 years ago, but then they expired before they had the chance to report them. And now they realize they could get credit for them, could come back and document their experience, but their time to licensure would be above average too. And so also additionally with some of some of those changes, they remove the time bound incentive that pushes some candidates through the licensure process. Because if you're not worried about your experience hours expiring or not being worth as much credit, you might take a longer time to report them. And if you're not worried about your exam credits expiring.

B You might take more time between divisions and that's fine if that is the plan that works for you. But it does mean that we might see that time to licensure get more drawn out as candidates do it in their own time and not the time that NCARB tells them.

A When I was going through the licensure process and now I feel that it's been so long ago, I can be one of those people that said way back when, when I had to take nine tests, instead of everyone was saying that greater flexibility compounds and increases the time to licensure. So how does NCARB kind of wrap their heads around, do we offer candidates greater flexibility? Do we make it time bound? What are the right incentives and kind of play with those various different levers when it comes to licensure?

B It is like a really complex kind of discussion that I think happens behind the scenes and some of it happens above my level. But I think that right now NCARB's kind of direction and focus is on increasing flexibility and removing time bound constraints because they're not tied to competency. Right. They're not tied to your ability to protect the public's health, safety and welfare. And so from a like defensibility standpoint, where we don't see it like, we don't see it as defensible as maybe in the past NCARB saw it as more defensible. And so we've been removing a lot of those constraints. And I think that that will continue into the future with pathways of practice. I think that's kind of the direction that we're expecting to go and that could change in the future with, you know, as organizational leadership changes.

B That's a thing that happens. But I think that that's kind of the direction that we're hearing from our members, from our volunteers, from the architects who are involved in shaping our programs and services. So that's what I see at least in the near and slightly distant future. I can't say what will happen 20 years from now, but I'd say from

C the volunteer leadership side, I was really fortunate to have served as experienced committee chair during those years when we were looking at so FY 25 and 26, when we were talking specifically about the AXP reporting change given by the board. And it's thrilling to kind of see how one policy change can make such a large difference in a candidate's experience. A lot of the conversation also fell under. Architects love timelines. Right? That's how we are we love deadlines. We're all going to stick with it. And there really had to be a conversation around, well, what's behavioral and what's limitational? Why do we need to put added limits on and really challenge those assumptions that we had prior? I think it was a great finding, especially when we heard about the candidates who were able to get immediate experience and moved us back onto the line. The fact that 20,000 candidates were able to gain that credit back is phenomenal.

C Right. You can completely encourage someone to jump back on the path because of that one change. And I think that's the power of even having NCARB by the numbers as a way to track these things. You cannot measure impact unless you are actively pursuing it and taking the time to do so. So that is my that's why I continue to volunteer with NCARB because you have the chance to make that kind of change.

A I want to back out a little bit to talk about one what that change was because I feel like we've alluded it without specifically calling it out. So what was that change? But also Jenny, if you can help our listeners kind of understand the process that it was taken to create the board ruling that ultimately created the change and how these changes are kind of made.

C So as committee members, NCARB committee volunteers get charges from the board at the beginning of the fiscal year as what our major topic areas are going to be to focus on. One of those changes in FY26 was to review the NCARB AXP reporting requirements. And it took time just to look at the reporting requirement again, which just as a reminder prior to the adoption of our changes in November was you would count 100% of your credit up to eight months was like a six month and then a two month grace period and then everything past that you would get 50% up to five years for. Right? So for me, when I was in my first year as an intern, I counted my hours at month 9 so I only got 300 of my 600 hours that I should have gotten. Now when that was required for our committee to relook at, there were conversations, we looked at scenarios. But ultimately throughout the year you develop a solution that then gets presented to the board. The board then adopts or denies or makes modifications to it and then you see actual adoption the following year, which is why you saw it in November of 2025. Sorry, this was a FY25 requirement because it took a year to get it done in November of 2025.

C This is where I'm Going with it. The change itself actually asked for a hundred percent up to a year. So if you're a candidate now and you've got experience In June of 2020, June 23rd of 2025, you can calculate that experience all the way to today with the full 100% credit. Then following that you get 75% of credit indefinitely. So that five year clock got taken off of that as well, following with the same methodologies and thought behind the five year rolling clock that was with the are. So it's time to revamp the AXP itself. There were some other policy changes that happened as well, but the reporting requirement was one where we saw a major shift almost immediately. And again, kudos to the board for the leadership in saying that finding it, sending it to the committee, leads, sending it to the committee and then again replying back over the course of a year before the final adoption.

A Jenny, can you talk to us a little bit just so there's no confusion about who is on the board for NCARB and who's kind of making these requests and also decisions?

B Absolutely. So our board of directors is made up of currently 15 volunteers. Typically it's 14 and it will be 14 soon. But we are in the middle of a kind of governance transition where we've been merging some positions and creating new positions. They're mostly volunteer architects who serve on the one of the 55 US architectural licensing boards. So one of the state licensing boards. But we also have now two at large positions which can be from our volunteer community. So to serve in one of those positions you have to have either served on a member board for two years or as a volunteer on one of our board appointed committees for two years.

B And so those individuals are elected by the members of our state licensing board. So the 55 member boards each get one vote and they elect our board of directors at our annual business meeting each June and then they serve for a year and then kind of run more people or the same people run for other positions or whatever the next June. So that's kind of the gist.

A No, I just, I just wanted people to be able to hear kind of who's making the decisions in the room and if they were ever interested in kind of affecting those decisions going forward, how do they become a part of the process?

B Yeah. So if you are interested in kind of getting involved with ncarb, the there's kind of two ways you can go about it. One, you can reach out to us about serving on a volunteer committee. We typically open the call to people who have become newly certified in the past year as well as kind of like returning volunteers. But we do additionally send out some kind of specific calls occasionally. Volunteers, they typically go out in the spring, somewhere in the March to April time frame. So if you're interested in volunteering, you can check out more about our committees on our website and then reach out to us. We'll be happy to get you in touch with the team who appoints them.

B Additionally, you can reach out to your state licensing board and see if they have any vacancies or vacancies that they're expecting soon and just kind of connect with them about volunteering. The process for getting appointed to your state board does vary state by state. Sometimes your AIA chapter may submit recommendations, sometimes it's any professional organization, sometimes the governor knows who they want to appoint. So. But I do encourage you to like reach out to your state board and see if they have more information about how you can get involved on that front.

A Now I want to dig in a little bit more into Pathways to Practice. So why don't we start by talking about what overall what Pathways to Practice is.

B Pathways to Practice is, it's a really huge project for ncarb. It's a multi year effort where we're really looking at reimagining the licensure process. So the current licensure path typically for most candidates, involves getting a degree from a NAB accredited program, completing the axp, passing the are, and then you get licensed. Some states have additional requirements or they allow you to do a different degree, but most of them do require those three components. And so that's kind of the way the licensure path has been since the 80s and in some states even before then. And with Pathways to Practice, we are looking at evolving that traditional licensure path into something that involves more options for candidates. So instead of pushing everyone through kind of the same degree program, the same experience experience and exam components, the idea is that there would be a variety of educational options for candidates. And then you know, you could kind of pick the licensure components that best suit your professional experience, your personal preferences regarding like testing versus maybe submitting work examples versus completing a course, that kind of thing.

B So the idea is just to make the licensure process much more modular and focus on demonstrating competency in a way that is best suited to you and to the competency, the specific like area of practice that you are demonstrating. That's the really broad high level overview. So we're kind of in the middle of it. We started with looking at identifying those competencies that architects need to be able to demonstrate in order to protect the public's health, safety and welfare as an independent practitioner. And so we launched our competency standard in, I think, October 2024. And that was based on data from thousands of practicing architects who participated in our analysis of practice. We analyzed their results to kind of identify what the most necessary competencies were, and then we did some additional research to verify them once we had kind of developed the drafts. So we had some additional, like 5,000 architects participants participated in that study as well.

B So thanks to all the architects who participated. If you're listening, we really appreciate it. And so then from there we have been. Our volunteer committees, which Gabriela is a part of, have been really looking at how, like, what programs, what. How people could demonstrate their competency through various assessment methods. And so we've been identifying what's appropriate for each area of practice and also what's kind of feasible both for candidates and for us as an organization. And so we're looking at making some announcements probably in the next couple of years. So if you're a candidate, don't get freaked out.

B We encourage you to keep going through the licensure process that exists today, but stay tuned for more information.

A So I come from California, and California has had a long history of various different paths to licensure, including an experience path. And I think there's correct, is it 19 jurisdictions that allow different paths to licensure. So I feel like there's more than people actually realize.

B It was 19 as of the end of the 2025 calendar year that NCAR, by the numbers the 2026 edition is based off of. I think we have had two more jurisdictions adopt additional pathways since then.

A That's amazing. I didn't know that that was on the horizon. So obviously there's been some reactions from the educational community because it means that there's not necessarily the requirement to pursue a NAB accredited degree. What is NCARB's reaction to all of that?

B I think it's an understandable concern. We fully expect that most candidates will still pursue a degree in architecture, partially just because that's kind of like the social setup of the United States. Right. Like most people go through that pathway of graduating high school. And if you're moving into kind of a profession that requires some educational background or kind of encourages some educational background, like a lot of people just go to college. And also because just the momentum of the profession, we think that'll kind of just stick around. We still expect most candidates to go to school. And that's certainly true today.

B Even in the jurisdictions that allow you to substitute experience instead of a NAV accredited degree. Only the 21% on average of new architects in those jurisdictions go through that educational alternative pathway in those jurisdictions. So even in states that have those options, the majority of candidates still get a degree from accredited program. And we think there is a lot of value in education and what it brings to individuals. So we expect many people to still continue to pursue those options. And we certainly don't think that it is going to be as disruptive as maybe some educators might fear in terms of that space.

A I do want to look at this through the lens of adding greater diversity to the profession to not most, but there are a large percentage of individuals who I think would be interested in going into architecture but may not have the means either financially or time away from family to pursue the typical NAB degree. I'm looking at some of the numbers right. 18% of M ARC graduates owe more than $100,000 towards education and 55% say they would not pursue the degree if licensure did not require it. Which is a lot and interesting counter to what you just said, Jenny. But I'd love even Gabby to get your take on this, especially as a kind of a first generation American.

C Yeah. So I think a major part to note there is the conversation around the M Arch degree is going to be. We're seeing in the legislation right now where student loan caps are being affected greatly. So the conversation is not it's no NAV accredited degree and get your license. No, it's not the case at all. It's just understanding there are many again pathways to become a licensed architect. And we cannot allow for those who fall off the path to not have a way to get picked up and put back on the on ramp to jump on if that's what they choose to do. And I know the conversation around those who maybe have a Bachelor of Science or Art in Architecture and did not pursue a master's degree.

C I've worked with candidates in the past to actually go through those states that have the alternative pathways. Right. So look at where your state of initial, your state of initial licensure will be. Really take into consideration that. And then look at these reciprocal rules. Right. So if you are, I'm going to be anecdotal for a second. Let's say you have a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Design from Texas A and M University.

C Fantastic university, fantastic architecture program. But you could not afford to get after your M. Arch, one thing that I walked candidates through in the past is well, let's find a state of initial licensure that makes sense for you. Is it California, is it Colorado, is it Wisconsin? That have these alternative jurisdiction requirements. You do that pathway, you find that as your initial state of licensure and you apply for reciprocity in the state of Texas. Some refer to this as a loophole, but in all actuality it is an understanding of the systems that we are in. Right. So if you know you do not want to pursue a NAV accredited degree, you just need to have a little bit more homework on the back end of what your licensure process is going to look like.

C As you saw, it does cause a little bit longer of a average time to licensure. A lot of bit longer, actually 18.8, almost 19 years as opposed to the 12.3. There are, you know, these give and takes when it comes to a licensure process, but making sure that you can get to that finish line, that is, that is ultimately what our goal is. And again, shout out to A and M's Master of Architecture program and IPAL program. They are fabulous and fantastic. But it's just worth noting that not everyone can afford that path. Especially as legislation continues to change around student loans and affordability of higher education.

B I was going to say to your point around like the master's degree and the people who in our survey said that they wouldn't pursue one if they didn't have to, which I think is fascinating and just like really interesting statistic. I, I think there's a difference between going and getting a four year degree because you want to, because it's something you're passionate about, or getting even a five year degree if that's your bachelor program, and then maybe go having to go back and get an additional master's degree because you went to the wrong four year degree program. Right. And so I think that we anticipate that a lot of candidates will still go through that bachelor degree, whatever that looks like for them. But I do think it's possible we'll see less master master's degrees for our candidates.

A Right. But I do know like the University of Hawaii has like a five year Master's. Drury University, my undergrad has a five year Master's too. So there's other options around what, what that Master's degree looks like too.

C Yeah, absolutely. Same with Louisiana Tech's five year Master's program, a four plus one. There could be a great rise in Bachelor of Architecture. Programs. It's really interesting being an NCARB volunteer and a NAV volunteer, seeing just how hard our educators work to really make these professional programs somewhere where students want to be. And I think that speaking personally attributes to why there has been a growth to the architecture programs themselves. There's a great culture shift happening in the studios, and I love to see it.

B And even architecture related programs too. Right. Like, a lot of candidates indicated that they were interested in, you know, like urban planning or interior design. And currently those degrees might not count toward licensure, but hopefully in the future they would count some toward licensure. And so we might see more people pursuing an area of study that they're more passionate about that still brings them toward architecture as a career without having to spend a lot of time and money on a specific degree that maybe is like a bit of a chore for them. Not saying that it is, but it could be. Right. And so I think that's really exciting.

A I do want to talk about this notion of the pipeline. Noma's trying to get people through the pipeline. The AIA is trying to get three people through the pipeline. Like all of the ncarb, all of these organizations are working to get people through the pipeline. And what we know about the pipeline is that it's far more diverse. Right. Than the people who actually make it through. Where do you think that diversity is ultimately getting lost? And is there really one pinch point that we can point to?

B Great question. I think there are two. To me, there are two key pinch points. The one that NCARB has less control over is around firm culture and the axp. So one of the areas where we see people fall off the path to licensure the most is during the axp. And look, we dug into it a little bit deeper this year and we saw that for a lot of those people, they're over halfway through documenting their hours when they stop pursuing licensure, which to me is kind of like was a bit of a shock because that's significant progress toward licensure that they're just kind of letting go. And from baseline on belonging and the research we've done with noma, we know that for some of those candidates, it's because their firm's not supportive of them pursuing licensure. And for others, their firm is supportive, but they only have so many projects or they don't take on projects in a specific area and the candidate finds himself at the point of choosing between their job and their licensure progress.

B And I think that's really unfortunate. And it does. It is a pinch point for a lot of candidates. And we've seen that especially be a pinch point for candidates of color. We've seen from baseline on belonging that they are less likely to get the wide experience access that you need to complete the axp. So access to kind of experience across the board in terms of practice areas. And so I think that is a barrier for some candidates of color, especially into representation in the profession. NCARB doesn't have a ton of control over kind of for the firm culture and what firms do for their candidates, but what we do have control over is kind of the flexibility and the modularness of the life syndrome path.

B And that's part of what's driving Pathways to Practice. Another big pinch point that we can't not talk about right, is the exam. And if you just look at the data in NCARB by the numbers around representation in the pool of candidates taking the exam versus representation in the pool of candidates completing the exam, there's a really big gap. I think this year, I don't want to get the number wrong. We saw that people of color make up 50% of candidates taking the exam, but only 36% of candidates finishing the exam. And that is a huge gap, 14 percentage point. You would expect it to be much closer. But we also know from looking at pass rates by demographics that we have seen much lower pass rates for candidates of color.

B And NCARB has made changes to the exam in hopes that it would shift that pass rate differential. Right, by launching free practice exams. Because one of the things that we heard from baseline on belonging was that candidates of color were less likely to have access to firm support for study materials and to kind of like the financial support for the exam and free study materials, but also because they're not passing the exam. A lot of times what we hear from candidates is that they like circle through different study materials, right, Trying to find one that works for them that gets them through the exam. And so the cost of that plus the cost of retaking those divisions is just really compounding for candidates of color because they're paying for more exam divisions, they're paying for more study material, and that that can become extremely expensive for candidates. And NCARB is aware of that. And that's another part of what's driving Pathways to practice is for candidates who are facing that exam pinch point for whatever reason that they kind of could choose potentially a different pathway for themselves that maybe didn't rely so heavily on exams.

C I mean, plus one to both of those. Jenny, you didn't mention the architect licensing advisor community. This is what I'm thinking through. So those who are, who can make change, make effect in the firm cultures are really being influenced by NCARB in that sense, where there is a great community of what are called the NCARB licensing Advisors. I'd encourage your audience also to take a look at this if you're acting as a supervisor in any way. The licensing advisor community provides a lot of additional help for those who are in the firm workplace at looking on how to make firm culture that much better, that much more supportive of your licensure candidates to keep them on the pipeline along with the Licensing Advisor summits that are available every other year and the Licensing Advisor Community hour that happens on the third Thursday. I think it is Jennie. But there are great resources available for the professionals, the supervisors themselves and even students and candidates who act as licensing advisors.

C To have those resources available on hand can greatly help with the pinch points in the pipeline. But however, they are still there. I mean, I can't as all the positive things I want to share, they are there. I also want to give a shout out to the NOMA chapters, to the state boards as well. This is where, you know, although they are members of ncarb, the state boards act as their own regulatory bodies, essentially have a really great, you know, Texas has a really great TBAE scholarship program for those candidates who are going through licensure without firm support. That's the specific ask there. And then same with NOMA national with the elevate committee that provides scholarships for licensure candidates and local NOMA chapters like dfw, NOMA and NOMAS NTEX that have scholarships for students not only for study materials but also for the exams themselves. So for those candidates who find themselves like barely hanging on to the pipeline right now because they don't know if they want to continue on in becoming a licensed architect because they faced one of these adversities.

C Know that there's support out there for you through a multitude of channels.

A What's interesting to me throughout my career, especially when I was going through the licensure process, is NCARB has always kind of been seen as this barrier to licensure. And I feel like everything that we've been talking to is really bending the path to licensure towards the candidate rather than the other way around. Is my read on this correct? Jenny, what do you say?

B Yeah, I think that there's a large degree of. To which that's true. I think Obviously, it's important to NCARB that we maintain the rigor and the safety requirements of the licensure process. Right. The most important thing to us is that our, our licensing boards feel confident when they give you a license that you are competent and you have the skills you need to protect the public. So I can't not say that, but we are looking at, instead of pushing everyone through the same path. Right. How can that path meet the needs of the individual? How can it be kind of customizable almost to the candidate so that it aligns with your background, your career path, your educational path, your social path? Like, whatever the characteristics shaping you and who you are and how you move through the profession, we want there to be a licensure path that exists for you.

A We always kind of end each episode with what does the future of practice look like? What does the future of the profession look like? If pathways to practice? And we know it's very much in the works right now, but if it works, what changes do we hope to see in the licensure data in the future? And when do you think we can actually begin seeing those numbers move?

B I hope that we see a more diverse, representative profession. And I mean that in terms of, you know, the basic representation that we talk about a lot in terms of race, ethnicity, gender, but also in terms of kind of like career path and focus and educational background and all of the other things that make a person a person as well, that shape the insights and the perspective that you bring to the profession. And we may not be able to see what that looks like exactly in NCARB's data, but I think that the public and the profession would feel the impact of that in terms of having a wider variety of people kind of in the room, shaping the direction that the profession is going in. And that is really exciting to me. I think it would take some time before we would see the full impact of that. Right. Because the average time to license we talked about is 12.3 years now. So if you're thinking of NCARB launching an updated licensure path in the next couple of years, then you're thinking another, let's estimate, 10 years.

B On top of that, we're looking at maybe 12 to 15 years before we kind of can look at the first group of people who have, like, fully gone through this new license path, whatever it looks like in theory. In the meantime, I do think we'll see changes before then. Like, I, I think we'll be able to report on the success of this, hopefully. But before 15 years from now. But I certainly think that it will take, you know, probably seven to 10 years before we really start seeing the full impacts of that on the profession.

C A major focus area I want to look at is, you know, how does the pipeline to the actual licensed architect? What does that attrition rate look like? Can it be improved by significant amount of points? Right. That that's the thing I'll be looking for because Jenny, you brought up the great point. It's not about more or less architects, but it is about the representative body and enriched tapestry of professionals who the licensure model offers back to society. So that's really the statistics I'll be looking for, is how, you know, your initial pipeline follows through with those who become licensed and then where do they go from here? Do they continue in practice? Do they expand in alternative methods? What are you doing with that license after you have it is something that I'm very interested in. But again, this is where I want to give much applause to the board, to the foresight of the board, even, you know, five, six, seven years ago who were talking about this in those early conversations about what pathways to practice could be. And although it is going to take a 12 to 15 year shift, it's truly cutting edge this pathways to practice to develop a more enriched and strengthened pipeline of architects to come.

A Hi Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the content conversation by joining me, our speakers and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

A Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.

C It.