Retaining the Next Generation of Leaders

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hey, Evelyn. Hi, Janine. How Hello, listeners. Welcome back to

B Practice Disrepid. Today, we're talking about retaining the next generational leaders. And during our interview with Ilya. We started talking about observations that we had for younger staff and firms leaving their jobs sooner and more frequently than prior generations did in the workplace. So this prompted us to start thinking about that in the context of, shifting industry.

A Yeah. And it's not actually unusual in the tech world. Right? So here in Silicon Valley, on average, I think engineers job hop every 2 years.

B And it's something I've seen in architecture firms as well, and I know that Those transitions can be quite challenging for firm owners who are trying to, you know, manage teams and keep projects running, and, it can really disrupt that for them. So we wanted to look at the shifting trend and examine why it's happening and also begin to think critically about what it means for firm owners and firms in general. And so we've invited David Fano to join us today as our guest. And, Evelyn, I was curious, how did you find David, and why did you pick him to be our guest for this theme?

A Yeah. That's interesting. So for those of you who have who have never heard of David Fano, David Fano was the CEO of CASE, a company that was acquired by WeWork, and he has since left and started Teal HQ. Teal is helping individuals with career guidance, especially through COVID. He actually launched This year, kind of in the middle of everything and how I found him. I was actually getting approached because of everything that was going on in the world. And And with architecture firms struggling, I've gotten an increase in people coming to me and asking to me about how I've pivoted to the tech world And while I'm at a technology firm, I am not on the engineering side, and I'm not even doing UX design despite my senior experience designer title. So I reached out to a Slack group that I'm a part of called Architecty.

A We can drop the link in the show notes. But it's really a a group established by architects that have transitioned into the tech world. And I specifically reached out to how Just generally broadly to the group, to those who are recruiting in the tech world to ask them about what it means to hire an architect into that space And and to talk to them about how people pivot so I could have a better response for all the people coming to me with that question. And During those conversation, David came up multiple times, and I noticed we were connected on LinkedIn. He was actually one of those, You know, I think all of us have them. Right? One of those connections we've actually never talked to but somehow got connected to on LinkedIn because architecture is an extremely small world. But I I took a chance, and I reached out to him cold. And thankfully, he responded and how Yes.

A I would love to do this podcast. So, Janine, why don't you tell us a little bit more about David?

B So as Evelyn mentioned David is the CEO of Teal and he is a serial entrepreneur and architect by training. He has built his career by creating high growth teams and founded the successful building information and technology consultancy CASE that he ultimately sold to WeWork where he later served as chief growth officer and increased the unicorn start up revenue a 100% year every year for 4 years and grew the team 2000%. In 2020, Dave launched his passion, TEAL, which offers a collective of resources that puts career development back in the hands of individuals so they can pursue a fulfilling career.

A Yeah. And before we jump to the interview, I just wanted to mention that for those of you who don't know, a unicorn a company in the business world as a start up company that has been valued at over $1,000,000,000. That said, how Let's cut to the interview. So would you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you're working on right now?

C Yeah. So, I've had a a fun career, grew up wanting to be a comic book artist. I was the kid that, how Got to do the yearbook covers and high school T shirts and stuff. So I wanted to be an artist. My dad said that wasn't a real job. He was a contractor, how And so the closest thing that felt like a combination of art and science would be to go to architecture school because I also worked for him throughout how High school and was a construction estimator and had been on building job sites my entire life. You know, sweeping job sites when I was 6. So I've been around buildings forever.

C Yeah. And so I said, okay. Architecture. It's kind of some combination, and it was a way for me to trick my dad into letting me go do, like, movie sets or be an artist. And, I went to FIU and studied architecture. I did a bachelor's of architecture. I learned what a nonprofessional degree how Once I did that and then realized I needed to get a master's, so I've I looked for the least Physically oriented architecture program out there, and I fell in love with Joe Kaczynski's work who has since directed Tron and Oblivion. And I went to Columbia because I wanted to learn how to do digital stuff.

C I wanna do, like, special effects in three d. I didn't actually wanna make buildings. And, while I was there, I actually fell in love with the process of going from the digital to the physical. We had an early three d printer, then I helped set up our digital fabrication shop, and We got a water jet cutter and a CNC mill, and I got really excited about all those things. Then I learned about shop architects because Chris Sharpless was one of my teachers. I thought this is the place. I gotta go work at this place that's, that combines the digital and the physical, and they were doing really incredible things. I worked there for 2 years.

C How And what I didn't say is sort of throughout my career, I've done very entrepreneurial things. I sold comic books. I sold paintings. I started a web design shop when I was in college. And so after 2 years, I was just like, this industry does not move at a pace that aligns with the pace that I need to move at, And I'm just not gonna wait till, like, I'm 60 to have success. It wasn't even about success. It was really more about, like, agency, And I wasn't that concerned with being the napkin sketcher, and I really like technology. I really liked the potential of what technology could do for our industry.

C And so myself and then 2 guys that worked that job, Federico Negro and Steve Sanderson, actually got really excited about building a how form to exchange information because we were working on Google's 1st ground up building. We were learning about search, and this was in 2007. And how Let's build a platform for people to be able to find contractors from their network, like a combination of, like, Angie's List and the Blue Book, which is this, like, construction estimating book. And, we went to do that. We raised some money from friends and family, but we knew that that wouldn't be able to fund our salaries. So we quit to start this company called Case, which was a design technology consultancy that focused on helping people in the building to better use technology, sort of a little bit of, like, what we were doing at shop, helping other people do that. And so we focused on architecture firms, got amazing firms like Grimshaw and SOM to be our clients. Then little by little, We started working with, owners and operators because we knew that, there's probably more potential there for the business, And we stumbled onto this company called WeWork where we were we you know, they were saying, look.

C We're gonna go open hundreds of buildings a month. At the time, I think they were opening, like, 2 a month, and we're like, we don't see it, but okay. And we came in and really helped them develop their systems and processes and standards how automation and a whole bunch of, platforms to be able to grow at scale, and we did that as a consultant for about two and a half years. They ended up powering a lot of the growth of Case. Case was around 63 people at the time, and then WeWork acquired us. We never thought we'd be acquired. We had zero intentions of selling case. I remember I'd sit at all company meetings all the time, like, we're never gonna how sold.

C Like, people don't buy service businesses. We have no intentions of getting sold. And lo and behold, we got acquired by WeWork, and I joined the exec team of WeWork, how Was there for 4 years, grew a team from around 2, 300 people to 36 100 people, 34 100 people. Over the course of 4 years, I ended up being responsible for all things physical, real estate design construction, and then all things sales and marketing. So I would build the buildings, how Fill the buildings. And I say I, I mean, I was responsible for the team that did it. I was the seat of the exec team, but there was a bunch of very smart, way more talented people than me actually doing that work, on a day in and day out basis. And that, yeah, that sort of exposed me to building teams and watching people navigate what it was like to be in a big company, and I got really excited about, like, workplace experience and work.

C And I'm a big believer how that when you find your work, just a lot of things get sorted out. And we're really focused on, like, helping companies deliver a better workplace experience so that their employees could be excited and fulfilled. And what I kind of realized is if the person doesn't have an understanding of what matters to them and what their work is and how they can combine their talents and interests with, like, a marketable skill. That's how you then you can get work, and you can do things that are exciting and that everyone deserves to jump out of bed excited to go to work in the morning. And I was like, I wanna focus on that, and it's not b to b. Like, that's companies can't actually do that for people if a person can't do it for themselves. And so that led me to what I'm working on now, a company called Teal, which is my chance to start something again and and really pursue a a passion. But, you know, I've said from the beginning, I wanna I wanna create a company that does good and does well and sort of shows what a company can be like.

C And so I'm you know, Yeah. I've been focused at that. We're we're a venture backed startup. We're about 10 people now, and we've been at it for since since November of last year, and how And we're having a lot of fun doing that. And, you know, I I know a lot more about careers and job seeking now than I ever thought I would. And, and I understand how how much it stinks and how lonely it is for people, and it's really fun to build a community to help people

B do it. Yeah. And it seems like a really good time to be doing that kind of work to help people.

C Yeah. Like, you know, sort of like, unfortunately, yes. I can't it's one of those things, like, I wrestle with. And it all I feel like an immense sense of pressure because it's like, wait a second. Like, how There's all this sort of angst in the world right now, and people are losing their jobs, and and we should be like water to a desert. But it's also, like it's hard, at least for me, to, like, charge for that. But at the end of the day, we need to be a business. And so I keep saying, like, I wanna be how thing that when I see the bill on my credit card, I'm like, I'm so happy I pay that.

C And that's kinda like the borrowers trying to set for ourselves. So we're figuring that out. Right? Because, again, a lot a lot of these things how don't know to do today. Right? They sort of might complain to friends about it, maybe because they're anxious to talk about it. And particularly in architecture, right, there's a lot of how angst around career growth because, you know, unless you get on that big project or, you know, you get happen to get in a firm that's winning a lot of big work, The way people think about their career and their career identity in the building and in architecture in particular is a funny one because it's also, like, really tied to privilege. Like, I go work at one of these, like, how architect firms, but I take a massive pay hit, which is sort of enabled by privilege. And then it it does pay off because I can say I worked at x y z company I worked for, big name architect. And then you get to draft off that, and your identity grows on it.

C But it takes a long time, how people that need to jump around, projects get lost. And so there is no advocate, I think is the right word, like, how for the professional that goes with them from job to job. And the of the few outlets that there are is, like, career coaching and things like that, And they're not really data driven. They're for me, they lean a little bit more on, like, tactics of therapy, which I think are fine, and I think people should pursue those outlets. But I think it can actually be be far more measurable and action oriented how and and data driven. Right? Because millions of people are making the same decision every day. They just don't talk to each other because careers are so lonely and about, like, My identity, and, like, I can't tell people because, well, one, my company tells me we can't talk about our comp, because I'm also feel weird tell telling people how much money I make, Or, like, I feel awkward telling people I'm ambitious and I wanna be a partner one day because they think I have a big ego, but I really don't. I just kinda, like, wanna be able to, you You know, pitch to clients because that's exciting.

C And so, like, all those things, like, the there's just so many things around that and managing that that are difficult how and complicated, and I think people need a resource to help manage that that has their best interest and is not coming from the company. And it's not to say that companies how shouldn't provide career development. A 100% they should, but there should be also an understanding that, like, when I don't work there anymore, that gets cut off, and so I need a thing that stays with me.

B Mhmm. I think it's really cool. You there's so many things in what you're sharing with our listeners about your your your background that they're gonna relate to, not only your interesting career in architecture, but also, like, transitioning in to technology and this entrepreneurial journey that you've been on. So we're categorizing you as our architecture and person, which is a part of our series of people who have taken their education and gone on to do something different with their career, but still using some of the same skills. And I think, there's a lot of really great things that you understand about that transition. So I'm hoping that we'll pick up on that in this interview. But Given your background in architecture and your career at WeWork and Teal, are there things that you've learned, any words of advice that you could pass back to the architectural industry related to innovation, workplace culture, and employee retention. I know you've started to hit on a few of those things.

C Yeah. I think the hard work there how is to really think about your user's user or your client's user, to use more, like, industry specific language, is, how Like, education and everything about it. Right? Right? We submit to the patron. Right? Like, the the Rockefellers are gonna do this museum. The Guggenheims are gonna do this museum. How But, ultimately, it really is about the museum goer, right, the person who's gonna enjoy that museum, the person who's gonna pay the ticket to see the art, Or more ordinary is, like, the student that's gonna go to that university, the patient that's gonna use that hospital. And I think that that's, Yeah. It's a nontrivial thing to do because, ultimately, I need to serve the person that pays me.

C And so if the client wants it, the client wants it. How And where I think the call to action, I think, for architects and young architects is to be able to say to a client, look. Your success is our success. How You're a business at the end of the day. You're not building a building as like a yes. Some do it as an artifact in history. Like like, for those that are doing it for business, like the majority of the how get built. This has to serve a purpose, and it needs to drive the business.

C And, right, even in today's climate, like, that's all being entirely called into question. How But the reason people build buildings is because they gotta achieve something. They need people to work there. They need to serve patients. Do the work to understand your client's customer how and talk to them about value. Too much of the industry is built on labor. Right? Why have drawing sets, like, quadrupled in size? Because we get paid by labor, more sheets. You know? There was architects that used to get paid by the sheet.

C Like, that's crazy. Right? What does that drive? That drives quantity, not quality. How That doesn't push you toward being valued for your intellectual property and more so for your labor. And so I think we need to move away how From a discussion of labor to a discussion of value. And I think until that can happen, the industry will be stunted and continually marginalized, And contractors will do it. Vertically integrated builders will do it. And so my advice would be focus on the value of your client's customer how and help their business be better and then figure out a way to, like, engage deeply in that beyond just when the building's done. Because then you will just remain transactional, and you will be out of it, and you will just be seen as, like, the aesthetician on the front end of the process, and little by little, you'll be taken out.

B I love that. I so hope that people will start to think about ways that they can rethink the way that we're working with our clients and billing our clients in order to come up with some new model for how that becomes less about hours that you're sitting at your seat and billing your clients and more about the value you're creating in the world.

C Yeah. It's there's a tension there. Right? Because we're taught how that our value is our ability to create bespoke experiences. Right? Just think about your education in architecture. You've got studios every how quarter every semester where it's about, like, doing something from scratch every time. Imagine if the education was about your 1st year as developing how a pattern language. I mean, look, Christopher Alexander was, like, laughed out of the industry, but is heralded by software people how Because they understand that it's about repeatability and efficiency and that, like, the uniqueness of the artifact is way less interesting than the value that the customer gets. And so those things are about self indulgence and less about the customer really having an amazing experience.

C And that's the push. Could we be taught to think more like product designers instead of these bespoke one off universal designers that can design anything how from a business card to a chair to a skyscraper. And it's this user centricity that's really missing, and it's just not part of the education at all.

A So I wanna circle back, of course, to Teal. But since we're talking about value, I often hear architects say the client doesn't understand my value. How I mean, I would put it back on ourselves and say we don't know how to talk about our value. So where what advice would you give to architects how who push back on that and maybe need a bit of their own education in terms of a vocabulary that they need to build to talk to their clients about their value.

C Make it empirical. Right? They're having a, like, philosophical discussion, and they're having one of, like, a projected narrative rather than one of, like, measurable outcomes. Right? So what's my value? Oh, the building's gonna be beautiful, and the neighborhood's gonna be so much better. So what? Right? Like, yeah, those things sound great. What does it actually do to my bottom line? I am spending $800 a square foot to build this thing. That's a tremendous amount of money. What's it gonna do? Like, architects don't wanna engage in the discussion of money, how like revenue, budget, outcome. What is the measurable outcome? It's like, well, there's so many variables.

C I don't know if they're gonna use it the right way. What if this well, how No risk, no reward. Right? Like, engage in the discussion. Well, yeah, but what if they operate it in a different way and then we're not there? You know, we told them to put that how Skylight, but if then they cover it with shades and then people don't congregate in the lobby, well, then that's, you know, it's not our fault. We'll get engaged in the operations. Right. Like, don't just say that's not our fault, that that's not on us. We don't know.

C You know? There I don't understand why architects don't engage in operations. It's like, well, that's not as exciting. That's not as fun. It's like, well, that really, that's where the meat of it is. The risk you run is that hypothesis that you lobbied for so strongly was wrong. That's okay. Like, that's how you make great products. You should relish those opportunities to be wrong because that's an opportunity to come in and reconfigure the space and move towards that thing that's actually empirically valuable to the company because what did you want to have happen? Why do you want people in the lobby and engaged? Well, because we want employee how attention to go up.

C Okay. Well, let's measure that. Right? Because our thesis is that if people come together in the lobby and they congregate and the office is buzzing, how that employee retention will go up, which means your cost to get new employees will go down. Alright. Do it. Right? Like, measure that. Those are all quite measurable things, you know, but you gotta put your money where your mouth is. And that's where I think they're kinda like, well, but And so then you're like, okay.

C Well, then we're just gonna pay you for labor, and see you later. Now that said, that takes capital. How And most architecture firms are a service firm, and you're sort of hand to mouth. And so if you say, well, look. Yeah. We are gonna get an operations engagement that's gonna be 50¢ a square foot how After the building opens, so that's not the same amount of money as, like, 10% of construction cost to deliver deliver the project. If you're designing this thing to be run-in a particular way, how Aren't you the best suited to stay and make sure it's run-in that particular way? So I'm not sure why that's not been the case, but it seems so Obvious to me that the architect should want to stay engaged and see if their ideas actually worked or not.

A I totally agree. So, I mean, it was great to hear kind of another perspective on that. I wanna go back to how This thread of of data and measurement because you mentioned how Teal uses data to help guide people through their careers. Can you go a little bit deeper into what you're collecting and what your what your understanding and and how you're using that information?

C So it's super early for us, and there there's different categories of data that we're starting to engage in now, and we're trying to find the right ones. Like, what are the things that have, like, apparent value versus long term value? What do people want versus what do they need? You know, one of the most obvious is compensation, and what does that look like? I've been a little I know we have to engage in the topic of compensation, But I kinda have a hunch that people don't really want compensation. It's a proxy of a measurable thing for what they really want, Which is to, like, feel valued and to enjoy their work, and to feel like they're progressing and growing and not stagnating. And seeing that my salary is going up how is the thing that sort of shows that in a way, but it really doesn't because you could optimize for compensation and still get zero growth. You know, there's lots of ways to make money in how There, you know, there are people that make money hand over fist doing very little, and I don't think that's what most people want. I think most people wanna be engaged in their work. They wanna feel like they have a sense of purpose and meaning. Obviously, we gotta make a living.

C And it's one of my concerns with, like, the broader discussion around compensation and compensation equity how is that I think it's putting an emphasis on the wrong thing, and I I wanna fully acknowledge that I'm saying that from a place place of privilege because I've I've not had to how struggle for money. But I do have a deep belief that if you're passionate about your work and you're good at it, the money sorts itself out, and I've seen that play out over and over again. So the data we wanna start to collect is is things like, what are the attributes of someone who is making money how and is really happy in their work, but didn't do it to pursue money. What were the career decisions they made? What was the context in which they made them? So taking those early bets early in your career, Like, working at a company that's got a great potential and is gonna do amazing things, but you need to make a bit of an investment by making less in the moment. How does that pay off? What did that mean for a person? You know, what's the data to back up that decision? If you switch jobs how Every year for the 1st 10 years of your career, what does that mean later in your career? If you switch jobs every 5 years how Early in your career, what does that mean? And if you do do that, what are the things that you should be doing? Because you have You actually have the ability and the permission to do that in those early years, and that you should be pursuing growth and learning and exposure to new things. And how can we help you understand, hopefully, even in advance, when are you not growing? Because that first part of your career really is about growing. Because also just life hasn't caught up with you. Right? There are definitely there are things I could have done when I was 25 that I can't do now at almost 40 with 2 kids.

C Regardless of how much money I've made, just life caught up with me in a different way. And so giving people data and insights to make those how Cision in a slightly more informed way from a collective infrastructure is really our goal because there's really nothing that sort of wraps that up for for professionals more broadly. How Companies actually have that data, but it's for them to optimize their profits as it should be. That's a 100% okay. But what is that? Then how And I think unions kinda tried to do that, but then, you know, unions I actually don't think unionization is the answer because I think they end up needing to validate how and justify the purpose of the collective and start to water down individual ambitions and sort of like homogenizes the collective. And so I think a collective infrastructure and collective advocacy is important, but it's also super important to allow for individual pursuit. And I think that can really only be done through data and large infrastructural sort of systems and not so much just like a pure how Advocacy group. Because it's hard to advocate for the collective.

C Right? I think just different people need different things. I think giving people the resources and the tools so they can self advocate. That's way more powerful than clumping everyone together into 1 big collective. So that that's kind of the data we're starting to collect, how The kinda the and the things that we want to be able to do with the data, which I think is almost more important than the data because then that'll sort of direct how towards the right information to get.

B Yeah. There's a couple interesting points in there. 1, I'll mention and just see how you respond, but there is this kind of conflict, I think, in architecture specifically with people wanting to experiment early in their careers. And I And I certainly know a lot of my friends who have been trying to figure out, like, okay. They they lay out this very linear path for me to go down and I want to find my way forward. But there is maybe it's kind of frowned upon, like, people changing careers too soon in our industry. So that's one thing I'd I'd be interested to hear you talk about. The other is I really liked what you had to say about their not being an advocate for the professional because I think especially in our field, it can be it can be very isolating feeling like you're trying to figure this out alone, and there's, inherently a little bit of a conflict around what's in the best interest for the company and what's in the best interest for the individual.

B So 2 ideas. Feel free to respond however Yes. I mean feel is appropriate.

C Architecture is a good one. Right? Because there is advocacy for the profession via the AIA, which I think is a complete and total failure, and then and there is no advocacy for the professionals. Right. And what ends up happening is that there's these, like, archaic, antiquated understandings of justifying the profession how and a callback to what it was when it was conceived, and it doesn't adapt. And it doesn't understand, like, the the modern understanding of the of of the value that profession can have on the world. And so it becomes around preservation, which I think is a huge how Issue. And so that's why it's it's so important for us that we are focused on the individual, the professional rather than the profession, how Annette, those things are highly, highly dynamic, and the professions, again, need to justify their existence. So what do you do when you're an architect? Right? Because we're sort of talking about architecture here, but it applies to most professions, is where you gotta get licensure, and you gotta do this, and you gotta do that.

C I I believe strongly an architectural education is one of the best educations you can get. The architecture profession might be one of the worst professions you can have. And that's kind of, you know, a bit aggressive language, but I think it's kinda true because you get such an incredible education. You get you get taught to think how Outside the box, to be cliche. You know, you get presented with problems. And I tell everyone, if you ever get the opportunity to hire someone that went to architecture school, how hire them immediately because they are taught to think critically. They're incredibly capable with tools and technologies. They're super resourceful.

C They're incredibly hardworking, Like, amazing, amazing. And then you go into this professional environment that is about, like, paying your dues and doing your time And doing the grunt work, and you gotta do this, until you get your license, which is kind of irrelevant because you don't own the firm, you can't cross a certain comp threshold. How What does that even mean? That's irrelevant. That's stupid. So there's these, like it's filled with too many prerequisites into acceptance. How And just like you're supposed to get a license. It's like, why? What am I gonna do with that? Why do I need a license? Just because you said so. So I gotta go take this, like, archaic 1 week long test and sit there and and take it on, like, some computer that's, like, running DOS that's, like, actually not in any way reflective of what it means to work right now.

C I don't know. It's, yeah. I'm getting worked up about it because I have I have strong feelings about the topic. And so I love it. And so yeah. So I think that there's how a disconnect a huge disconnect and a misunderstanding between growth for the profession and growth for the professional. And so that's that's super important. And those 2 things, how I'm not sure they can be reconciled.

C I do think it's valuable for there to be advocacy for a profession to an extent. The importance is to focus on the growth of a profession rather than the preservation of a profession. And I think too many of these organizations how Anchor on the preservation of the profession. And I think that's a huge problem because the world is moving too fast at a place where you need to, like, preserve. I think most things how that play not to lose end up losing, and those that play to win excel. And I think I mean, in particular, the AIA, I think, is consistently playing not to lose. How And I think that's that that hurts the industry, and I hurt that hurts a lot of professionals.

B Yeah. I do see people and maybe this is a good transition into our question about if you see any generational trends in the work that you're doing. But I I often see people feeling like they're moving through these, especially millennials. Like, they're moving through these checkpoints, like, okay. I need to get promoted. I need to do this, and and I need to do that and then so they start looking at things in their career as maybe like a checklist versus looking for things to your point that are more in alignment with what's inspiring to them. So, anyway, those are my personal thoughts, but I would be very interested in your thoughts about, any generational conversations at play that you've observed.

C I think the more recent the generation, so be it Gen z, how The less tolerance there is with real time feedback on progress. I think older generations just weren't too concerned about progress. How It was and and the definition of progress was different. I also think context is really important. We are so Informed now. You can see, like, everything is measured in progress. How many likes did I get? How many views did I get? You know, it's just talked about consistently. How much money does a Kardashian make? How much money does a YouTuber make? You know? How much money like, My daughter used to watch these weird little YouTube videos of someone just, like, opening a toy.

C That person was a millionaire. You know? And so it's like how Seeing and being aware at the rate at which things can progress and the rate at which things can either succeed, become how Famous. Who knows whether it's identity, internal, external, who knows? But now that there's an exposure to that and that you can see that how The rate of progress is not dictated by a profession, and it there you do have agency in that. I think that there's a a growing unrest with things. Like, well, you just need to you need to pay your dues. It's gotta be 20 years before you do. It's like, no way. I'm not doing that.

C I have a yearning to create. I thought it was buildings, but it can be a podcast. It can be software. I wanna create things how that help people's lives. It doesn't have to be a massive monument that sits in the middle of the city. And I think that an exposure to how you can create, the ability to create, is expanding so quickly that I think it presents a bit of an existential threat to the to the industry and to the practice of architecture because how There are so many mediums to create now, and architecture students are so exposed to the various technologies and they're so capable, They're like, this just takes too long. Like, life's too short to wait 10 years for this thing to get built. I can get an app running and in the hands of people in 10 hours.

C I'm just not gonna wait.

A Yeah. I I think when I look back at one of my largest frustrations was, you know, I had to stay at a firm for 4 years to how see something from conception to completion. And and that's if I was lucky, and I got to be a part of that project all the way through. Right? One one of the interesting things that I found with Teal, though, is that you guys seem to do coaching in in groups or or cohorts how 2, which I feel is a lot different than a lot of other career development organizations. Tell us a little bit more about why you've kind of set that up.

C So I gotta be careful that I'm not, like, trying to pick a fight with career coaching. I think career coaching's awesome, and I think those that can afford good career coaching how should get it. I think that there is a almost like nonlinear relationship between the quality of coaching how to the cost of coaching. And what happens is really good coaching becomes completely inaccessible, You know, for people that make, I don't know, under $200,000 a year, which is a nontrivial amount of money, it's still really, really hard because a lot of these things are how infrastructurally geared towards companies being able to buy them. As a consumer, let's just do easy math of how 50% tax rate. That's crazy, but, you know, if you live in New York, maybe not. But, right, for me to pay a great coach $1,000 a month, how I have to make a salary of 2. Right? And I can't write that off like the way a company can.

C So what do all those things do? They end up starting to go towards companies, and they're the how company provides it. And if I'm really crafty, I can take my coach with me from company to company, and I can get them agreed to to a pay for it. But, generally, that's not the case. And so what do I get? Like, I want help. I'm struggling. I get 1 on 1 with someone who is trying their best, and if they're great, they'll probably break through the b to how coaching rates of 100, couple $100 an hour into the b two b, and then I'm inaccessible again. And how The other thing is, like, a coach isn't like a doctor. Right? I go to a podiatrist or I go to an internist because, like, they understand my domain really well.

C Careers are so complicated and require so much context. Think that I'm gonna go to some, like, career doctor also for me doesn't entirely work out because I think what really good coaches do is they figure out how to, like, how the issues from you and help you work through it on your own. But the really good ones I've seen a lot, and they've got a lot of exposure. So we thought how what's the fastest way to accelerate that and lower the delivery costs? Let's pair you with other people. Other people are having these same kinds of experiences Millions of times a day. There's just no outlet for you to talk about it. Sure. There's, like, online discussion forums and there's stuff like that, that's a whole another thing.

C Like, I wanna be able to talk about it. I wanna be able to hear with somebody. I wanna be able to explain the nuance. I wanna have the follow-up questions because maybe I'm not asking the right question. So when you put professionals together, it gives people a sense of relief and permission to talk about things that maybe they felt stupid for. Right. Like, I you know, my manager did this. Is that right? Because, like, am I, like, weird to think that that's not cool? Because it doesn't feel cool, but how Maybe that's normal because, you know, your career is a series of firsts.

C You've never done any of this stuff before. But, again, millions of people are doing the same exact thing on the same day. How So we said if we can put people together to have these conversations in a safe place with really there's no how There nothing bad comes of them talking to each other. Right? I think, like, everything about work has tried to get how the workforce, like, not to communicate. Right? There's no benefit to employers for all all of us knowing what each other makes. There is no benefit to all of us knowing, like, which managers are great and which ones aren't. Right? That complicates things. That make things hard.

C That gives us information and insights and gives how leverage to have kind of difficult conversations. And so if we can put people in groups in a safe space and work more like a moderator how and a guide for that conversation. We think that, 1, makes it more accessible to people, and 2, could actually probably yield better outcomes.

A That's a really innovative way to approach things. And I feel in today's day and age with how With everything that's going on, one thing that I have found happening more in smaller group conversations is just a lot of more open and transparency how To so to see how that then parallels a similar experience looking at career growth, I think that's it's just a really unique approach.

C That's a little bit of the bet we're making. Right? It's like that's a huge behavioral change, but there are signs of that starting to come. Right? Like, talking about compensation. How much do I make? I'm determined to figure out, like, why Talking about compensation is so taboo, and it it's clearly psychological, and it's some aspect about identity, feeling bad about it. I don't know. Right? Not all cultures are this way. Like, not all countries approach it in this way. I'm not gonna say it's, like, an only American thing, but it's definitely a thing here.

C And how We only benefit from knowing. Right? Like, that transparency is actually quite valuable. And I think more importantly and one of the things we wanna try to tackle how Teal is, like, understanding what are your values and what matter to you right now. Income doesn't just have to be cash, but making sure that you're maximizing your value. It is how Absolutely okay to say I'm gonna make less because I wanna learn. I'm deciding to make less now as an investment in myself because I will make more later. And I think also knowing how much you wanna make in the absence of intentions is also really, really a problem because then you don't have a sense of enough, and you just feel this kind of, like, weight that I need to make. And you've got society kinda saying, like, well, you need to make this much, and you need and so I don't know.

C Like, we've almost, like, how Over commercialize the notion of compensation to the point where we feel bad about it. Now there are, like, empirical pay disparities. Like, those things are clear, and we need to address them. But I feel like the pendulum has swung a little too far to, like, making compensation how too much on the surface. So if we make it transparent and just be like, look, it's just kind of like a thing, and this is how I approach it. This is why I made what I made. You know, I, yeah, I intentionally chose to go work at a start up. I got the title because that's gonna have value later because that's gonna be the next thing on my resume.

C But, yeah, my comp went down, And I've just seen it enough not enough times now where people are like, I love this job. I love this company. I love everything they're standing for. I wanna go work here, but the comp's just not there. I was like, how Well, how much do you need to make? And they're like, oh, well, no. No. This is, like, way more than I need to make, but that's just like a pay regression. I'd be making less than I made before, and I already got there, and I don't wanna go backwards.

C How Say, but what does backwards even mean? You're gonna learn a ton. Right? And, like, when you jump, you kinda squat first and then you jump. And so it's okay for you to do that with your career. But I don't think people are kinda given the permission to do that, and there's too many unknowns how To be able to make those decisions, so that's some of the stuff that we're hoping to

B kinda try to tackle for people. Just building on that idea of transparency, as a CEO, can how you give us the viewpoint as a business owner of why transparency is good and what value it brings to you.

C So I've thought a lot about this, and how Transparency in and of itself is not that helpful. It is a means. The end you want is trust. How What transparency brings is trust. It's you're saying we're trusting you with this information. So I think as a company, what you wanna do is pursue how A trusting relationship. You wanna assume best intent. And so what being transparent says how Implicitly or explicitly is that we're trusting you with this information and that you will do good with it or that you won't do bad with it.

C Like, right now, work from home, you know, is a big discussion, how And most people are saying this is great. Really, what they're feeling, in my opinion, is they're feeling trusted. They're feeling that how They can go get a coffee in the middle of the day. They can sleep to 9:15, 10 o'clock, 10 to and, like, no one's checking. There is a sense of lack of trust when it's like, how I know that if I'm not at my desk at 9 o'clock, someone's gonna raise an eyebrow. So whether explicitly or implicitly, people feel far more trusted because they have agency. How And some companies are gonna embrace that and double down on it, and some of them are gonna be made really uncomfortable by that and probably recoil pretty quickly.

B So the the title of this episode when it when we were coming up with the concept was really about retaining the next generation of leaders. So I was wondering if you have any recommendations for architecture firms, and leaders that how they might think about how to keep their people engaged and inspired to be in their offices.

C Let them fail with no consequence. That's what people are worried about. And in architecture firms, because they need to be, are very risk averse environment. How Am I gonna upset the client? Are people's lives gonna be at risk if someone makes this decision? But if people aren't allowed to fail and how Stretch and struggle beyond working all nighters just to get something out, like, you know, meaningful struggle, not just, like, struggle of labor. Let them go pitch a client. Let them pursue a competition. Let them deploy a new technology in the office. Like, let them have ideas and initiatives and let them fail.

C And I think architecture firms generally really struggle with letting people fail. And I think that's how people will feel a tremendous amount of pride in their work and when they see some of those things come to life, how Some will work. Like, many will work. And many won't work on try 1, but they might work on try 2. And so commit. Don't just pander. Like, commit to the idea and help people that work for you to really try to achieve those things. And I think that's those are the people that stay.

C Right? Because ownership, I think oftentimes, get con gets confused how like equity and shares. It's like, I don't think that's actually what drives a sense of ownership. I think ownership is driven from a sense of contribution and authorship. And so Let people author, like, the outcomes and feel the consequences of good and bad decisions. Right. And I think let people get excited and let them see through that excitement. And I think those are the people that will will remember, and they'll remember that this was an how an environment in which they grew, and they'll feel a sense of wanting to continue to help grow that thing.

B I love that. That's so great. I I think you're a 100% how to correct in that observation. There's a lot of control issues, and and the idea of failure is not, you know, widely accepted one in our industry. The the last idea that

C Real quick on that, and I get it. Right? I mean, I I've talked to enough architects in my life, and I understand the reasons. How Well, you know, we don't we don't make that much money. Our profit margins are tight, that we might lose the client. You know, what if the project goes off schedule? Get it. How Totally get it. But then let's also, like, be transparent about salaries in the company. Right? Show how much a partner makes and show how much a new intern architect And then I can I understand the the argument there? I was like, yeah.

C But I had all those years of not making anything, and that's why I'm making it now. Be the change you wanna see. And so if you're just gonna, like, continue to perpetuate it, yeah, it's gonna continue to be the same thing. You're gonna continue To lose that talent, you're gonna continue to go to the AIA convention and complain about companies like WeWork and Slack taking your employees because they're getting to work at places that are how citing. They're engaging their in their career. They're getting to see that this, like, tired industry doesn't actually encourage people's growth, and how You will slowly die from attrition, like, as an industry.

A So we're at the top of the hour, and and I do wanna be how Worry of your time, but I'd be interested. What is your top piece of advice for someone who right now is looking how grow their career. And and they are they love architecture, so they're they're not thinking about leaving. Secondly, for those who are interested in what a transition looks like. What is something that you would like to leave for them to to think about?

C The first one, for people that love architecture, wanna stay in it, how And and feel stuck is, I would say, first and foremost, try to shake yourself of the stigmas. You don't have to stay at Affirm. There are lots of places where architects can have jobs that are amazing. Going in house to a client is not selling out. If you're true to, like, why you pursued architecture, if you wanna make, like, monuments that get you on the cover of magazines, then don't go do that, then continue to slave away. But if it's really about helping people through, how like spatial experiences. There's lots of places to do that. But most of the people that you talk to that have done that, I think it's one of the best decisions ever made in their career.

C How They make more money, work life balance is better, they feel super connected to the work, and then you can always go back. Right? The other thing is that how These decisions aren't nearly as permanent as people feel. They say, like, oh, well, once I go, I can never go back. That's entirely untrue. It's actually the other way around. If you work in a practice And then you go and work in a brand, every practice wants you back because now you've got clients and you've got contacts and you've got people that can actually help move the firm forward. So how Look beyond just, like, traditional practice. There's lots of places that you can take your skills to get a job and still stay in the built environment.

C For those that wanna transition, understand those things that you're good at, those things that interest you, and those that have a market value. Right. If you can find the things that are at the intersection of those, you can find a job you love, that you can be super excited to do on a day in and day out basis. Now if you try to change all 3, that's really, really hard. So if you're an architect and you've got pretty good technical skill, what are these adjacent professions that you can present yourself in a very positive light and for why it makes sense. You know, one of the things we say a lot at Teal is companies wanna hire you for what you did and not what you wanna do. And so that's that's a headwind in job seeking that you just need to understand, but that doesn't mean that you can't present what you did how To get you to what you wanna do, but you still gotta, like, shape it and package it in the right way. Where I've seen transitioners really struggle how is where they stay in the I don't know phase.

C And so then you if you don't know, you won't know. You don't know what to go how You don't know where to work, and then they they really get wrapped up in the and lost in the I don't know. And so what I told people is, like, pick a profession a week. If you if you don't wanna commit and there's something about, like, the weight of that decision that's really overwhelming, then just pick it for a week. Just say for 1 week, I'm gonna be a UX designer, and I'm gonna look for UX jobs. How The next week, I'm gonna be a graphic designer, and I'm gonna look for graphics design. The next week, I'm right. And and and at least try those on.

C Right? It's like clothes. Just try it on. And if you like it, then you can buy it. If you don't like it, return it. And so I think that that's a way to how At least inch a little closer and getting out of that I don't know what I wanna do phase.

B Final question. We wanted to give you a chance to tell everyone if they're interested in working with Teal or wanna learn more about what you guys are doing, what can they do?

C Yeah. So right now, we're Very focused on helping people find jobs they really want, and job seeking is is way harder than I thought when I went into this. We went into it thinking we'd make, like, a little 1 hour workshop on how to look for a job. It's turned out to be 8 hours, and we probably have 8 more hours of content that we've cut out. And so if you're methodical and procedural about how you pursue a job and get clear on what you wanna do, you can find that awesome job. It's absolutely out there. And so we're really focused on that. We we run groups of content and community to help people stay accountable and pursue their jobs whether they're employed or unemployed.

C And, and then what we're starting to shape is more of a career membership. And it's early days on that, so we're really looking for kinda like beta testers to help us understand what that is because we don't really go to a gym for our career how now, but we kinda think we should and and then make that investment in career wellness. So those are the 2 things right now that we're actively working on. Again, it's really, really early, so We're we're focused on, like, how do we create a commercially success successful business. But right now, the thing you can buy on our website is this, how Job searching workshop called career assist.

B Awesome. We will definitely put that in the show notes, and, be sure to get that out to our listeners.

A I was really interested in talking to David and learning more about his story. I think one of the interesting things out there was the fact that he went into architecture with no expectation of necessarily having the same connection to the built environment that your traditional architecture thinks about. He actually sought out a university that was how really forward thinking in the tech space. And then he ended up building platforms that, you know, ultimately supported architects, owners, and operators. In his transition to shop, he never did architecture in the most traditional sense.

B Right. That's a really good point because that's usually less prominent situation for students going through school. But I know, Evelyn, we've talked a lot about the fact that people that we end up graduating with. There's quite a large number of those folks that end up leaving the profession entirely at some point either I mean, from my generation, it's the people that how got kicked out due to the recession, but in prior generations, there's a lot of reasons why. And we end up losing touch with those folks because how they go off and they do a lot of different things with their careers. They go into different types of fields and adapt their training into that field. And because we don't identify them as architects, we really don't know how many of them there are or what they're doing or where they're doing it and what that work looks like. And it's kinda like this missed opportunity to think about a whole group of people who actually our playing architecture in some really interesting ways in different fields.

A Yeah. And I think there's a parallel. I mean, I I feel like how It's because we've isolated them, and that isolation kind of bleeds into our inability and the angst David talked about around our own career growth in architecture how and how we aren't. We don't really talk about it. Right? The way people think about their career and their career identity is so tied to the firm that they're how In the projects that they're working on or even a particular vertical, like, you have to you have to choose hospitality, education, You know, and it's so hard to switch between verticals once you've committed. I've actually had several mid career professionals come out how me, and they said, you know, I'm interested in switching out of architecture, but I've committed all of this time. I think we put this inadvertent pressure on ourselves That doesn't really exist if we were to think about our careers a little bit more entrepreneurially. Even when I think about the conversations I had with my peers while I was in traditional how practice we never really talked about, you know, career trajectory or professional development in the same sense that I do on

B a regular basis how with my colleagues in tech. Well, I think the default's always to lean on, you know, studying for your Ares, getting licensed, that that's the catchall for career development. And in my opinion, it's not. I think it's a part of the puzzle, but it's it's not the whole picture for sure. Another thing that David mentioned that stood out to me was this opportunity to engage in the operations part of the design process. And that actually reminded me of you, Evelyn, because I've seen you do this with your career a few times. And I thought maybe you could share an example of how you've how you've integrated into the operational side of what you're doing through architecture.

A Yeah. I I mean, there's there's a huge value to be placed on how Especially, with everything that's going on in the world. I would say that actually a lot of people at Slack didn't fully understand my capabilities until we started for planning for reentry, into the offices. And how I started mapping out, you know, from an operational perspective and health safety and welfare, here's how many people we can fit safely. Right? And then from there, you know, now I'm being asked to do things that were no different from when I was in workplace consulting 4, but they they just understand the value of what I bring, where they're having me look at strategically, You know, with more people working from home, with a more distributed workforce, with the move that the company has made to being a remote first company, meaning that any of our employees are able to go remote full time, have the option to do so. How What does that mean to the over the company's overall real estate holdings? What does that mean to what the offices how of the future at Slack look like. You know, why do people come to the office anymore? And then as we grow

C how In a very distributed way,

A how do we decide where to open a new physical presence, and how much of that is driven by where our workforce is now or where our clients are. And I feel like I'm at the very forefront of all of those questions being asked how by the executive team, and they're relying on data from my team to help them make decisions. That has a really big impact on where Slack is headed in the future. So another interesting thing that I thought David brought up was also the disconnect between growth how for the profession and the industry versus growth for the professional, and how and how that happens how Or rather doesn't really happen within our industry.

B Yeah. This is one that I really how have thought a lot about and particularly related to the business model of architecture, because the business model is entirely dependent on people being hired to execute the work on an hourly model. So it's people being in a seat and producing, and that equates to profit. And it creates this scenario that David's mentioning, which is this transactional relationship between the employer and the employee. And as you've seen in worst case scenarios, when the employer doesn't have the employee's best interest at heart, this model creates some really bad scenarios. And some of my friends have had to live through those experiences, unfortunately, and then find their way out of it. But most obviously, you know, one example is how the more that I, as an employee, get you to work and the less I pay you, the better for me because the more profit that I earn or the money more money that I can keep in the company. Now, of course, that's not all architects, and I think I wanna give credit to those who are trying to find a way forward for their employees to take care of them, but it does create this dynamic where it's like there's a little bit of some controversy between the relationship.

B Essentially, I think the question is, can an employee's best interests ever be above the firm's profit in that model or above the project or above the essentially, the bottom line. And largely, I think the answer is no. Now, of course, we all like to think that we, you know, we care for our people and we are how gonna try and look out for them, and and I think the most generous people in our field are trying to do that. But at the end of the day, you know, the the firm profit, the project deadline, the clients' needs, they're always gonna win because that's how the firm is earning money. That's how they're paying their staff. That's how they're keeping the doors open. And so inherently, that comes back to that idea of there being a little bit of tension there as David mentioned. And as someone who has been in that hourly seat, and I'm looking to the leaders ahead of me in my firm who are running the organization, I I wanna know, like, can you create an environment that looks out for me as much as it looks out for the firm earning a profit.

B You know, can this environment allow me to win also where at the end of the day, I'm able to take home enough money to support what I need to do to survive, or that I'm leaving and I'm not totally exhausted week to week because I'm being drained as a resource, because production is dependent on me creating revenue or even as a marketing person sitting between the person who wants this project and the desired project that we're trying to win. Am I being treated respectfully in pursuit of that effort? And so those things are all, to me, a little bit of on the lines of ethics and things that I don't know that there's a clear answer, but I wanted to raise the point that how It is something that even in our best intentions, at the end of the day, I really think that the way the business model's structured, how you really can't look out for the employee's best interest if you really think about it. And I would really ask our next generation of leaders in our field to really strive to think outside of this business model and think about ways, how could we reinvent this so that we don't become dependent on using people to generate profit in our industry.

A How For me, it's really all about being able to be fully paid against our value because there's other graphic designers, how But, like, we're not the only industry that builds hourly. The the problem is our hourly rate is so low. I mean, the kind of the next iteration that I've been saying of that is, you know, it is really, really hard for us to all of a sudden just, like, see our rates how Jump if we have been willing to do what we've been doing for so long. Unless you can truly differentiate yourself how in a way that, like, you can say, I'm gonna do it for this rate, and this is why you're gonna pay me, then there's always gonna be the companies that could say, but this guy can do it for half as much. How So us trying to get paid better value on our services is, like, trying to get somebody to switch toothpaste in a toothpaste aisle. Like, how You're staring down a number of different solutions, and that 1 guy is all like, there's there's too many other people that are not gonna that are holding the price where it is, for us to move the needle there. So we really actually need to be looking at different services and quantifying that in a way in a different way. Because otherwise, it's just how Always.

A More sheets, more details. We've commoditized our product so much. We've truly dug our own hole, and it's just, like, hard to get out of it at this point. So I, you know, I don't wanna be putting words into Dave David's mouth either, But taking what you said and taking what he said about too many associations are playing not to lose rather than to win, I would say that how Firms have also been playing not to lose. Right? So architecture has become like a first in, first out Profession. If you think about, especially, all the the layoffs that have have just happened and, you know, how many architecture firms how to close their doors during the great recession, and this is going to hold true of the dynamics going on today during the pandemic. I think how We've become all too comfortable upon relying on repeat clients. It's good when architects say that, you know, 84%, how 90% of my work comes from repeat clients.

A And I kind of cringe a little bit because that also means that they aren't looking for new ways to diversify their revenue stream, And they've really kind of settled into the ways that they've always marketed their services, and they rely purely on This relationship that, especially during times of crisis, if that pipeline dries up, then they have nothing else to pull back on. I've also how Continuously struggle with how often architects complain about everything we've given away, what the contractors have taken from us, what project managers how have taken from us, how associations like the AIA are not spending enough money on marketing to really talk about our value, how And how industry is like real estate have found a way to get paid on a commission based model. How No. Rarely ever do I hear architects who are really playing to win and not so much complaining about everything we've given away And how we haven't structured our fees correctly, but just really kind of shouting from the rooftops. These are ways that we've how pivoted and expanded our business model and diversified our revenue streams. These are ways that we are really reaching out to clients and talking about our value And not waiting for the RFP to come in so that we can respond to it. You know? And these are the ways that we're creating new partnership models outside of architecture Built on new sources of compensation. You know, maybe maybe it's even equity based.

A It strikes me that we are a very risk adverse Industry. But until we are willing to take a risk on ourselves, I do not think we will actually be able to grow our business and value proposition. And the interesting thing That comes out of this circling back to Dave is that he started by raising some money from friends and family. And then when he realized that that wasn't gonna work, they he quit his job to focus on a company that eventually became Case And, you know, got acquired by WeWork, and now he is asking more people to take A risk on him with Thiel. It's a venture backed company. Right? Now he's finding a way to for venture capitalists how to to ask them to take a risk on him, and and we do not do that enough in architecture.

B Before we go, we wanted to mention that this is episode 6, and we are halfway through our 1st season of practice disrupted. So thank you so much. If you've been listening, we really appreciate you coming along on this journey with us to explore these conversations. And if you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love to hear your feedback. You know, at the end of the show, we always ask for you to rate and review the show. But beyond that, we'd really love to hear from you. We're starting to think about season 2, and we wanna know what you like about the show and what additional topics you'd like to hear how

A about Yes. We're crowdsourcing season 2, so feel please feel free to reach out. We also wanna mention

B that we're part of Gable Media, which is a growing multimedia network, the first of its kind of global leaders in architecture, engineering, and construction who are creating content and new ideas for our industry. We wanted to say a special thank you to Mark and Demetrius for their work on helping us put together practice disrupted for this launch on season 1 and point you to their podcasts, which are also part of Gable Media. How So Andre Architect and Spaces podcast are 2 excellent shows you should tune into and check out how to hear more from our amazing collaborators who have supported us on this show.

A Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week. We are proud to announce that Teal is partnering with the practice of architecture to provide career assistance for architects designers who want to focus on building a career they love. As part of this newly formed partnership, David has been gracious enough for a limited time only to offer his time to how to lead a cohort of architects and designers who sign up for his career assist program on a first come, first serve basis. Visit practice of architecture.com starting Friday, how July 24th for details and to sign up for a chance to get insight directly from Teal on your career journey.