Coaching is the New Mentoring

A I'm Evelyn Lee, and I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore the industry is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions

C to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

D Welcome to practice disrupted.

C Yeah. So I don't know if you heard that, but I'm hearing these didn't didn't didn't running through the house, followed by Like, half as heavy.

A £20.

C It's it's my kids running back and forth.

D Yeah. We're doing a new recording time tonight, which is pre bedtime.

C Pre bedtime being not midnight. for Eugenine since we are an opposite hosts. It just means that there's a lot more commotion going on in the house right now.

D Yeah. We're bridging, a few time zones to bring you this recording. And, as long as Max doesn't come bounding in, I think we'll be okay.

C Yeah. And Max for those of you who don't know me is the dog, but he only tends to bark at deliveries.

D Well, I think, As you being a working mom, working through COVID with 2 kids at home and trying to manage, your responsibilities, Professionally and with the podcast and being a mom, this is a pretty on point topic for today's soed as we're starting to talk about people and how we think that people is a really important part of the conversation how practice is changing. And on this episode, we're inviting the first professional from outside the industry onto the show.

C Yes. So I'm really excited about this. And from the beginning, we have always promised our listeners that we would be delivering not only experts in the field of architecture that are really pushing beyond traditional models, but bring in experts from outside that can really evolve and change what we're doing both as individuals and as practice leaders when it comes to our own firms.

D And Evelyn, we've experienced knowing that this people part of the conversation was really important in many ways, including our volunteer work when we were in the equity by design initiative in AIE San Francisco and then also in our own careers I think the people part often gets overlooked probably because of capacity, but it's a shifting conversation in a professional setting, and I think there's more demands on it than ever. There ever has been pretty much.

C Right. So we are going to be interviewing my friend, Doctor Shannon RV Zoo. And what has really actually drawn me to Shannon over the years is just her magnetic energy and kind of the care and empathy that she approaches relationships with. We actually met shortly after I graduated from my masters at Cy Art, Michael Speaks, introduced us. He was currently heading up the MR plus d post per program at Cyrock that will date me if you wanna go look that up. It's also on LinkedIn, though, so it's not really hiding anything. But, anyways, so Michael speaks introduced us, and he met Shannon through the clean tech industry and that we would be kindred spirits And we had a we both had a deep interest in the time and sustainability. So it's that's a whole another show.

C I mean, obviously, I think we've both ended up in very different places, but it's because of her energy and her approach that I think This new business that she's been spinning up called Epic teams has been so successful.

D So Evelyn, tell me a little bit more about Doctor. Yes.

C So I think we're gonna go get into the formal bio, and then maybe we'll cut to the interview. Doctor Shannon Arvizu is the performance expert that leaders reach out to for help when they need to align focus and improve the execution capabilities of their organization. She has consulted with several tech companies throughout the SF Bay Area to develop high performing teams and improve outcomes, including those at Google, Gillian, SurveyMonkey, electronic arts, jump shot, Axon, Gainsight, and more. Doctor Arvizu has spoken on topics such as how to transform your millennial managers into epic team leaders, hacking your team brain and leading data driven teams at Google Juniper Networks and Culture Amp's culture's 1st conference. As a team performance researcher, doctor Avizu is also the author of a recent study empowering the next generation of team leaders and fast moving startups featured in the new book, leadership team coaching and practice, case studies, on developing high performance teams. She has also adopted her practice to focus on leadership teams during COVID. so In particularly, how do you move forward through crisis and adapt?

D There's a couple of things worth flagging within that bio. The idea of high performing teams being 1, and I think we're gonna get into starting to talk about millennial managers, which is interesting to me. And, of course, agile leadership and what are high performing teams, what are agile teams. I'm so interested to dive into this and start to think about, how does that apply to architecture?

C Yeah. Absolutely. So I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation. Yeah. Shannon, if you could tell a little bit about yourself and a little bit about, EPIC teams, that would be wonderful.

E Yeah. So my name is Doctor Shen, RBCU, and am a sociologist that works with organizations to help build strong lean agile leaders and teams. and I'm based in the Bay Area, but I also travel a lot. I work with a wide variety of plants based in the Bay Area. As you can imagine, some of my clients are tech companies, mostly B2B SaaS Companies. And and I also have been working in the consumer package good space, with a few beauty brands and, also worked in the biotech space. And I do also have a soft spot for service based businesses, local, small, medium sized businesses that are delivering services, you know, such advertising marketing, even dentistry.

D Can you tell us a little bit more about some of the deliverables that you do with your clients? Like, what what are they often hiring you for?

E Yeah. So organizations hire me to become more effective. and that takes various forms. So we can think about an organization no matter what industry you're in, your organization is composed of 2 systems, your social system, which is all about the relationships and the norms and the experiences and even the emotions that your people bring to everyday work environment. And then there's the the works or the technical system. Those are all the tools and the frameworks and the ways that your people turn their expertise, knowledge into value for customers. and so some organizations come to me saying, hey, we really need help with social system. Let's focus on helping your people learn coaching skills and facilitation skills and learn, development skills for, for their teams.

E And then some organizations come in and say, Hey, we actually are falling behind under livables and, we are experiencing a lot of blocks and delays internally and we need to improve the way we work together. And so we'll work on improving their the the way in which they are delivering value for their customers. and and whatever form that takes.

D Right. And I'm sure it's pretty unique based on the company, and what's going on in the in the situation.

E Yeah. you know, we customize everything to the specific situation. And the one thing though that is the constant is that even if a company comes in saying we need help with the social system that there's usually some element of the work system that also needs to be improved and vice versa. And this comes to us from decades of work in socio technical systems theory, which is based on the idea that to just optimize one of those systems is actually do harm to the organization and it's really about optimizing both concurrently.

D And how did you make that leap into this doing this type of work? Where did paths come from that led you here?

E Yeah. So I got my PhD about 10 years ago, and, my focus was in organizations and social change and technology. And I had been working for a few other consultancies along the way. focusing on the nonprofit sector for a few years and moved to San Francisco, got involved with tech companies, and a certain point realized that I could probably provide more value opening up my own shop and bringing in my expertise from the research world, but also from the business and world. So that's what led me here today.

C I would say that a lot of architecture firms feel that they're probably not broken. and they wouldn't actually know to call on a person like you. Are there any common kind of signs that leadership can look out for where they they actually need to kind of think twice about whether or not they need to address this internally.

E Yeah. That's a great question. So here are some of the things that I hear when companies come to us. One is we're not meeting our goals. And we thought that we would be at a certain point, but as it turns out, we're not and we think it has something to do with how we're working internally. And then from there, it starts the litany of things around.

C Right. So we

E have a bunch of new leaders coming in, and they're pretty inexperienced. And we gave them the rings, but they've flubbed a little bit, and then we tried to help, but we didn't help them in the right way. Or, you know, sometimes it looks like our leadership team isn't aligned and we tend to have moments where we're not talking about the things that need to be talked about and we are having trouble with getting alignment or it's something along the lines of we're we're just stuck all the time and we don't have very clear roles and responsibilities and it just feels harder than it should. seems to be the overarching sentiment.

D Wow. Yeah. I I think that there's definitely some firms that feel that way, but they may know that there's an option to not feel that way.

E Yeah. It's true. I mean, because most of the time when we experience that, we tend to troubleshoot ourselves based on whatever tools and experiences that we have, which can be very helpful. we might, you know, ask for advice from our friends that work in other companies, and they'll tell us what worked, and then We'll try it and maybe we can get a little bit further or maybe not. There's also the well, I guess this is just the way it is, and we'll just have to deal with it. or, well, you know, that's with this group of people and eventually they're gonna leave anyways. So there might be some changes there. Yeah.

D We know that one well.

E And the good news is that we actually don't have to guess and stumble our way through building an effective organization that there are some tried and true frameworks and processes that that work well and, you know, it does mean that we stop and pause and reflect together to build a shared reality, you know, and that's one of one of the benefits of bringing in someone from the outside is that you have this third party who is coming in and whose whose sole job is to help the people who are doing the work get a fresh perspective on what's working, what's not, and what could be different. and then, you know, help them come up with their solution to what needs to be done. And of course, you can we bring in what we know works, but it needs to be customized and tailored to the specific situation. And then we provide a level of accountability to the changes. So, that's how behavior change happens and The benefit of having someone from the outside come in is you have someone who can provide a path, a journey, and then also can make sure that you're actually delivering on the journey.

D Do you have a specific case study that you're able to share from your work that is okay to share with our listeners?

E Yeah. Well, I mean, I could share with you the most recent case study actually that was just presented within a company yesterday It's with the 800 person B2B SaaS company. And a year ago, they came with the problem of a lot of their leaders and teams in their India office were not feeling engaged and motivated to do the work. It just kind of started to get into just like a slog and they weren't producing the high value, high quality is what they used to. and, you know, we had this idea that if we were able to support their leaders and teams in a structured way where they were able to learn some skills apply it to their teams, empower their teams to implement these things over, you know, series of a few months that that would make a big difference to the level of commitment connection to the work. and we devised the program. We rolled it out. Did the evaluation and their scores went up.

E So say that was like a win. I mean, these are the sorts of things that have implications for numbers like retention and also for you know, recruiting. So that's just one example of some of the case studies that we work on.

D Yeah. No. That's a really good example. And I think relatable to the architecture industry, I know there's a lot of firm owners that are concerned about turnover and the investment of bringing on employees to work, and then they leave pretty quickly from the perspective of the forerunner who feels like they invested in someone, but what often isn't talked about is what you've just brought up, which is like the individual person who's -- feeling disengaged, like, their experience. And I think that's what's really cool about what you do because you're looking at trying to understand that better and trying to understand how to help people work better together so that they're getting more -- enjoyment, maybe, out of their work and feeling more connected to the work that they're actually producing.

E Yeah. And the one thing that I found to be the critical element is that it feels a part of the actual organizational culture. So when people know that these are the new set of behaviors that make us effective in our work. And everyone in the organization from top level leadership down to frontline leadership is going to be going through the experience of learning together and growing together and that we're gonna have some clear metrics on how we're gonna evaluate one another and we're gonna create a strong level of psychological safety so that way we know this isn't about firing people. This is about creating a safe space for us to take risks together. I mean, that's where the real magic happens. And that's when you start to see, some pretty significant impacts in how the people deliver value for your customer's as a result.

D Can you talk on psychological safety? I know that's something that you're really passionate about.

E Yeah. as I had mentioned, psychological safety is the shared belief that we feel safe enough to take risk and grow together, and this is, you know, there's a conventional notion of what psychological safety is and that conventional notion is, well, it just means that we don't say things that ruffle each other's feathers, but it's the opposite. It's we feel safe enough to ruffle each other's feathers. and we know that we can talk about our mistakes and it's not gonna turn into a blame game. and this is foundational for getting better as as a team and as an organization and there are a discrete set of behaviors that you can measure and track over time that lead to increased psychological safety. So it makes a huge difference when organizations commit to that.

D That's really cool. I I love hearing that, and I know a lot of our listeners will appreciate that because part of our community is this idea of critique culture, which is really prevalent in all of the work we do. So we're constantly coming up against this, these difficult conversations basically about and sometimes it can feel very personal because you're creating and you're you're trying to do something with other people, which can also be challenging when you're creating there. So it prompts a lot of really intense conversations sometimes.

E Yeah. I can imagine. And having a good structure for those critique sessions, I mean, I work with design teams and that's also a part of their culture. And without having some good norms around what that looks like, then as I'm sure maybe your listeners can imagine those can seem like running through the gauntlet. You know, like, alright. I'm going in.

D Yeah.

E It's I

D think it's a pretty disruptive experience for someone new in our industry because they come in and it's always unless you've been in a firm long enough, you might not know what the norm is.

E Yeah. Exactly. It's really important for leaders to establish some good norms around that. so that way people feel like they can contribute to the evolution of the ideas and feel like the end product is better because of the conversation that we had.

D Mhmm. Absolutely.

C So I think a lot of our listeners also might be on the younger side. You have suggestions in terms of managing up or, you know, how how has somebody that's younger or newer in an organization begin to create that space? to have those conversations.

E Yeah. If we, you know, zoom out and just look at at any organization where there is more of a hierarchical culture. It's part of its legacy there there's gotta be some desire, some motivating event to switch the leadership style. and that can come as a result of, hey, we're not making as much money as we used to or our clients are consistently unsatisfied, like, usually if there's a business case for the change to look inward, and and to see what the real sources that can become a pretty significant motivator. If you're talking about

A --

C And if the answer is, which is, I think you're headed that direction. But if the answer is, like, they that you can't Like, unless you can come up with that, like, unless unless that's present, it's not gonna change. I think that's I think that's a good reality for people to kind of settle into too.

E Well, I mean, the interesting thing is that there are also subcultures within organizations. So Another thing that you might run into is there might be an older, more established leadership team that embodies more of this top down hierarchical approach, but then there, you know, maybe smaller subteams or project teams where you have more of a collaborative facilitated leadership style. and that is something that you could, you know, explore. Like, if if you're not if we're talking to just say the individual let's just say 30 something architecture practitioner inside of a larger organization then finding those pockets where there is that leadership style and the other thing to keep in mind is that we know creativity really thrives under more collaborative leadership style because again, you have that psychological safety to like take risks and to think out of the box and if architecture as a industry wants to continue to stay relevant and finding ways to nurture that creativity and how we interact with one another, how we lead one another is likely gonna be even more critical moving forward.

D Yeah. That's a really good observation. And I guess one of the reasons we brought you on the show is to talk more about these ideas around new models of mentor which I think you had a couple that you wanted to share with us.

E Yeah. So it's interesting to learn from you both about where the industry is and you're moving from more of this apprenticeship model, which maybe is more of a model of Hey, do as I say sort of way of developing people, and please correct me if I'm wrong

C Yeah. You're right on. You're right.

D In some cases, of course, there's always the exception.

E To more of a a coaching relationship, and really to to see as a leader to see yourself as a coach to see yourself as someone who can spot the strengths in your young leadership and someone who can nurture those strengths and to help your people you know, at with with every project having retro, if you will, you know, say, okay, what what what well, what could have been better, you know, what's that one skill that if approved would make a big difference on that next project? Okay. Great. What's our project plan for developing that skill? Let's check-in on that next month, see how it's going. You know, coaching itself is actually a very teachable skill and it's actually quite easy to learn and I've seen organizations of all sizes benefit from starting to integrate peer coaching practices and peer coaching circles. And, I mean, I could share with your listeners just right now, like the the four questions that you ask in your peer coaches or glove, like, you you could do this today. you could literally say, hey, we want to start appear coaching practice and would love to invite anyone who would like to come for an hour and you could do this virtually. and we will pair up, go into your breakout rooms, and we'll ask each other these four questions and it's based on the grow model of coaching. So it's an acronym and the G stands for goal.

E So what's your goal this week? What's the most important priority that you have? the r stands for reality where you now the o stands for obstacles and options. So you say what are what obstacles are in your way? and then what options could you try? And I encourage leaders to ask that question three times. You know, what else could you try? What else? What else? That way you really get that divergent mode and thinking out of the box. And then the w stands for willing to commit. So then what are you willing to commit to and would you like for me as your peer coach to hold you accountable? And they might say, hey, well could you send me this email by this date and just check-in if I did that thing or if you see me in this meeting defaulting to this pleaser mode, you know, then like, pull me aside and let me know. Right? We can start to establish that sense of mutual accountability that is so key for building psychological safety and also providing this growth and development in a very lightweight and and fun way. I will also say it's it's usually something that Most people enjoy a lot.

D Now in that team environment, the peer coaching, you would have maybe multiple people in that group. So your peer could be it could change, like, who's giving you feedback week to week, or are you sticking with the same person?

E that there's lots of flexibility. So even if it's just two people to say, hey, do you wanna start this pure coaching thing just for fun? That's all you need are two people. If you're in starting a peer coaching circle within your firm, then you could say, hey, we're gonna have the same peer coach for a month and then we'll switch it up month to month or you could do it for 3 months something like that

D Yeah. That sounds really great. I mean, I like that because I think what fails in traditional mentorship programs in our industry is when someone gets matched with the wrong person, and then that dependency on the

A 1

D to 1 relationship can sometimes result in No mentorship happening. Whereas I can see in a collaborative peer model, there's opportunity to change it up and learn from a lot of different people you're working with.

E Yeah. Exactly. And the the main difference between being a mentor and a coach is that, you know, the mentor is really there to give advice. It tends to be one directional whereas the the coach is there to unearth your own wisdom about the situation, and really to hold you accountable to behavior change. and of course in the context of being a coach, you might have some advice to share and if that's the case, you just ask Hey, I have an idea that could help. Would you like to hear it? You know, if there's this permission asking and then usually the person's like, yeah, that'd be great. You know? And so there is an opportunity to mentor while coaching, but it's not intended to be this I know more than you. do what I say.

E You know, it's more like, hey, let's help you figure it out because you're also building those neural connections that are gonna help you solve this problem yourself when I'm not around. So that's the big difference.

C What about team coaching or, like, the next level of of that?

E So as a team coach, you're asking similar questions but to the whole team and of course it whatever problems emerge there are specific frameworks and approaches that you can use for the context, you know, but you can think about if we just take that same grow model and expand it to the team, I have seen lots of leaders use this in their team meetings. Like, alright, team. What's our most important goal this week? And a lot even just that question alone is a very powerful

A --

C Yes. Yes. I was gonna say. I don't I don't think I don't think that question gets asked and that's actually But, yes.

E The beauty and simplicity and power of that question.

D Right. It reveals a lot.

E so what's our what's our most important goal this week? Where are we now? Like what did we accomplish last week? What obstacles are in your way? what options could we try? What else? What else? You know, and then helping them converge. Okay. What are we willing to commit to? moving forward. And how would you like for me as your team coach to hold you accountable?

C Mhmm.

D One thing I wanted you to share with us is this concept of microstructures because I think that is such a brilliant idea about looking at an organization and and thinking about some of these things that are not said in an organization. Can you share more about what that's about?

E You can think about microstructures as those everyday interactions that guide our behavior. For example, when you're in a meeting and you're the leader and you pose a question to the group. And what usually happens when you pose a question to a group without providing any structure is that the loudest person in the room, the one who has the most authority. These are the people who will to dominate the conversation and dominate what gets done. There's a term for this called Hippo, highest paid person's opinion.

D I love that. I know a few of those. Exactly.

E And so, having a microstructure here of intentionally distributing airtime. So like, hey team we have this problem to solve. I'd like to go around the room and just hear everyone's observations around this problem just so that way we create a shared reality around what it is that's actually happening.

D Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Creating more space for people who may not feel comfortable speaking up in traditional settings where there's a lot of people

E Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, there are microstructures for, ideation, making decisions, No, so that way the decisions that we come up with feel like they have taken into consideration all of our best ideas and that All of us are committed to move forward on this decision. And, again, the beautiful thing is that these structures aren't complicated to learn or to implement. It's just that most of us haven't been exposed to them because we learn leadership from the people that we were managed by, and they did not use these things, these structures to guide behavior. So You know, just having a little bit of exposure and some intention around it makes a big difference.

D Evelyn, I know this one you're really excited about, but I wanna make sure we get to it. The agile leadership, can you talk a little bit more about what makes an agile leader?

C Well, that and your program. so in addition to Epic teams, you also have like, this new community forming around agile leaders and the agile leader program.

E Yeah. So when you think about an agile organization, that is an organization that is building the right things in the right way and at the right speed. And there are a set of capabilities that enable you to do that. And if we go back to the notion that your organization is a social system and a work system and it's about improving both. Those capabilities are about improving both the social system and the work system. So the first capability is around having an agile business strategy that's focused on what are the things that your customers care most about and how are you doing on them? So once you are clear on those things as you're north star, then there are things that you can do on social system side. So there's a set of capabilities around performance coaching, and another set of capabilities around team facilitation, team coaching, providing psychological safety. And then on the work system side, there are capabilities around designing your work systems so that way you have a flow of value to your customers that is the most efficient flow.

E and then it's also about looking at your specific client processes and having good standards for the things that you do most often for your customers and that you're consistently looking to see where the improvement is and your design experiments to improve them. So in the agile leaders community, we are focused on building those 5 capabilities.

D Oh, that's great. So how do people participate in that if they want to?

E Yeah. So you can join as an individual leader or as an organization. So, people like to join as an individual leader. You can just go to agile leaders dotco and sign up. And if you'd like to join as an organization, meaning that you'd like to sign up a cohort of your leaders to learn any number of these capabilities in what's called a transformation sprint, if you will, so we could focus on one of these capabilities for, you know, anywhere from like 2 to 3 months at a time and then make some good headway and then we can start working on the next capability then they can just email me at shout in at epicteens.co.

D That sounds really cool. I think it's a great opportunity for people who are looking for that leadership at peace.

C Yeah. So you've you've I think you've offered a tremendous amount of, like, tiny tidbits set for homeowners could go and implement even tomorrow, like, to consider. And you and you had a great quote in there about, like, creatives and and how we need to create that safe space in order to to move forward and to remain relevant. Is there are there any other is there any other kind closing thought you would like to leave our listeners with

A --

E As a user of architectural design, as as someone who really appreciates being inside spaces that are well designed and are thoughtfully approach, it makes a profound difference on what happens in that space. And anything that we can do to proliferate the art and science of architecture in today's world I think is time and energy spent.

D Alright, Evelyn. So after listening to the interview and recapping on lessons that we want our listeners to apply or take away from this episode. what do you think? We're we're where did this interview go for you?

C So I think first of all, the biggest takeaway is that I would hope that our listeners -- latched on too is that there are incredible people out there with deep research and knowledge in organizational transformation So if you are struggling from a culture aspect, from the people side, we talk about how architects problem solve and fix processes and efficiencies all the time. Sometimes it's worth bringing in the 3rd party to take a look at your own inner workings to really jumpstart things again and kind of, get out of a rut, or or make a change. I mean, the interesting thing to me is I I don't think most architects would actually know to call on Shannon. So, hopefully, we've introduced you to someone in a in a different line of work that you, you may not have considered bringing into your practice before.

D And that's a good point. And so while she might help, startups and and fast paced teams and tech, I think she certainly could help with an architecture firm that's dealing with some pretty complex conversations around either project management for big projects or firm conversations where teams are trying to work together to shape the culture of the firm.

C One of the things that she mentioned, and we've talked about this before. I don't think we've just talked about it as clearly is that there are both social systems and work systems in an architecture firm. And while they also need to, like, independently stand strong, there there's definitely some overlaps And it can purely be your social system, not your work system that is a breakdown in your firm. Or opposite, you could have this great culture with great people that mesh, but then your work system might be broken.

D Mhmm. So those are two things to look at internally in terms of considering how you're There might be roadblocks that you didn't even know were happening in either of those systems.

C Right. And then she also talked about creating a shared reality. So I think that really speaks to getting a 360 degree view of your firm from both the leadership and the individual contributors, even your latest hire or the summer intern. And understanding, you know, is their perception of How transparent leadership is around communications the same as the perception that leadership believes they're putting out. to the firm.

D Oh, that's a definite one that I've seen gaps on. You know, oftentimes, I do think it's common for firm leaders to feel like they are being transparent or that they are communicating effectively. And sometimes that's not always the case, especially with staff that are more removed. I think the more removed someone is from the project, even being entry level and new to a firm, there's a lot of opportunity for there to be a big gap there. So it's always about trying to reach out and bring them in to the conversation as much as possible.

C Right. And Don't necessarily troubleshoot what is going on in your firm by making comparisons to other firms because what is happening in your firm is probably really uniquely your own. So master classes are great, I think, from a case study standpoint. But doing what one firm did to fix a similar problem will not necessarily fix that same problem in your firm.

D That's true. I think each firm is unique. And I think about it in terms of a business being kinda like a living organism. It's constantly evolving and growing and shifting, and it's gonna have its own unique variables that are impacting the way it's working or not working. And so has to be looked at on an individual basis either as a company or within your project team dynamic or whatever.

C Right. And she referred to the product team dynamic too as all the different type of subcultures that you have in the in the firm. So I think it's It's important to track those subcultures and what's affecting them as well. One thing that was really addressing to me that I think a lot of people struggle with is this notion that, oh, I can change the idea of leadership in the firm. And I certainly think there is opportunities for people to grow into leadership and to change the direction of the firm, but I also think and I had to do this for myself, there's a certain point where you have to accept that things just aren't going to change. And you can either stay there and be okay with the fact that they're not gonna change, or you can do something about it. But you know, when I asked her about change, there there had to be something some business driver, right, to make that happen. So So unless there's that outside motivational pressure, unless you're able to create that or just create an amazing case as to why change should happen internally.

C It's something that's actually really hard to implement well.

D Evelyn, let's go back to the peer coaching idea. What are specific things that people can implement on their teams right now to start doing some peer coaching?

C Right. I definitely think that there's things that can change at the team level or the subculture level, or even on a pro like, your own personal professional development level I was really interested in this whole idea of the pure coaching practice and the grow methodology, right, where you find a partner and you state a goal You understand the reality of where you are now, and then you really under like, get into what are the obstacles and options And then asking people to commit to that. I think it's easy enough, even over Zoom, as Shannon said, to start, pure coaching circle tomorrow even and check-in on a regular basis to support professional development at all at all

D I think this is an excellent option, especially for people who are in a specific point in their career, perhaps you're a seasoned project manager and you wanna work with other project managers in your office get ideas about how to grow into the skill set that you're working on, or you might be earlier on in your career and you're just trying to figure how to maybe be a job captain for the first time. I think linking up with like minded individuals who are looking for similar outcome in their professional development and thinking about this pure coaching model is a great way to start having those conversations more seriously. And I think oftentimes it's easy to want to wait for the person that's -- you or the firm owner to to want those individuals to give you that professional development But oftentimes, they're tied up in some really complex project and firm management challenges that it's not that they don't wanna help. It's just that their time is so limited that they may not be able to have those deep dive conversations with you. However, if you shift your mindset of thinking about how can I ask those kinds of questions to more people or create my own mentorship team that's gonna help me. I think you're gonna get an immediate strategy under you around growth and and how to answer your questions more immediately.

C Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the additional point there is that if your firm isn't willing to start a pure coaching practice, then I think this is something that you can even take on with those that you used to go get drinks at the bar with after hours too. This doesn't have to be within the contact of your own firm.

D Exactly. I think any of the ARE coaching groups are a great example of how that's already happening in our industry. And I think just applying that concept and it doesn't stop when you finish your Ares, there is professional growth that happens throughout the longevity of your career. So at any point, any phase, any issue that you're trying to navigate, you can create a peer coaching circle you know, to talk about those specific issues.

C Right. And for firm leaders, I think I have, like, the 2 biggest takeaways from Shannon's conversation was really creativity thrives under a more collaborative leadership style. creativity also thrives when you allow people to fail and feel comfortable in failing. as long as, you know, they're supported and able to learn from those mistakes too. And then finally, I really like this idea to view leadership from a mind of a coach. So I think that for me, it breaks down the whole apprenticeship model you've referred to as dated or old or very hierarchical, but a coach, you know, you're always going to be cheering your people on to win, and I think this is just a different mindset.

D Yeah. That, for me, that's the key takeaway on this episode is just you know, starting to talk about mentorship and think about how could we be doing it differently when were prepping for this conversation, we had a pretty great conversation about how the mentorship model -- specifically the apprenticeship model is a little bit dated and hasn't evolved to meet modern practice. And so I think the one to one idea about working with someone and helping them grow works in some scenarios, but not all. And so if we become reliant on that, then we're missing an opportunity to introduce mentorship in other ways. And more specifically, I think starting to introduce a new mindset about how we're helping people with their careers. trying to help someone from a coaching perspective is the way that a lot of teams in particularly your field Evelyn are starting to have these conversations that are a -- addressing different skill sets that I don't think have historically been addressed in what we would talk about from a mentorship perspective in architecture.

C Right. And I And I think that's mostly just because I find in tech and the work that I do every day, that is it is very cross disciplinary, right, that I'm not sitting down with all the other and the studio, and that the majority of the meetings that I'm coming to have various different experts from a variety of different areas.

D Can you give us an example of, like, maybe a coaching scenario that you've seen happen either good or bad, but something that we could talk about?

C Yeah. So I think A really interesting thing there that Slack has adopted is they they're very much, a leadership by doing We have a very open communication network where leaders can go in and post general announcements. They can post, respond to ask me any things. There was one instance in particular, and this actually made orientation where a manager was called out because he he referred to some of his team members as I don't know the exact term, but it was it was the equivalent of, like, gals, right? And his team member just called him out on it, and he posted to the entire organization. One of my fellow reports called me out on this, and I would like the rest of you to call me out on it too, because this is definitely something that I need to work on fixing. for me, that was a little bit of coaching model. It's it's it's more leading by example, right, and pulling people along. But it is also, I think, what is specifically different about the apprenticeship model versus the coaching model is that you're really actually celebrating when those individuals do something truly great, even if it's putting you on the spot.

D Yeah. I think, a lot of times, mentorship when it happens in a professional studio setting, it tends to be in the delivery of criticism, which is fine. And I think everybody can learn from that, but that's where I see coaching as a really great strategy because it's looking more broadly at having a long term conversation with someone. Mentorship, I think, tends to do that too, but in a in a professional peer coaching scenario, I think it's about creating a group of people around an individual that that person feels supported, but in practicing in a studio environment, man, I could, like, The times that people have said good job have been so far and few between. It's been just I think that's why I just left the field pretty much because I got so tired of it, but I don't want a trophy every time I do something great, and that's not what I'm looking for. It's just I wanna I'm I'm look what I'm really looking for is human connection. I wanna know that if I'm working with a team and I did something and it was hard was hard. We did it together.

D We succeeded. And that there's just a human acknowledgement that we're working through something collaboratively and creatively, and we're finding our way, and there's ups and downs. And when we hit those ups, man, those are moments to be recognized, and it's worth taking the time to tell someone that you saw that. moment where it went well, because oftentimes it doesn't go well. And it's problem solving those moments that make architecture are so hard.

C As more teams shift to a remote work situation, that having those many celebrations and calling out that, you know, the team kinda went through the grindstone to get, like, the grinder together, and we came out the other side. And we were through it and taking a pause to really celebrate collectively is gonna become even more important going forward. Mhmm. I think that's a good place then. Okay. Thanks, everyone, for listening, and we will see you next week.

B Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at Practice Disruptive dotcom to find out more about future episodes and the in nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting GABL. media.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, you can help us by leaving a rating with you and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.