Voices from the Future of the Profession

A The practice of architecture, and in particular, practice disrupted, have been a catalyst for talking about the modern shifts in business and design management necessary to push our industry forward. We know these conversations are much larger than 2 women on a podcast. We're dedicating a reoccurring portion of Practice Disrupted to an ongoing series we're calling Voices from the Future of the Profession. Today's guests include leaders in architecture from NOMAS, AIAS, NOMA, AIA, including the YAF and ACSA. We've asked our friends to share their perspectives on justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion,

B and to lead us through a very important conversation. Each person you'll hear from has responded to this question honestly and thoughtfully.

C As we center around this conversation of race, equity, and architecture. I would like to share a little bit of a personal story just to help paint the picture Of how I see the future of architecture. Being born and raised in the towns of Gaithersburg and Germantown, Maryland, Which happened to be in the top 5 most diverse towns in the entire nation. I never really saw race to be a challenge, But more something to be celebrated. My friends and I were all, for the most part, first generation Americans. Remember on hot summer days, we would cruise around on our bikes and then return home to one of our friends' house just to get a cool refreshing glass of water. It wasn't uncommon for us to also be introduced to a very tasty cultural treat, like some Puerto Rican tostones from my friend Jose Or some Jamaican oxtail from my friend, Mark, or maybe it's just a simple American burger from my Irish American friend, Brandon. This is what I thought America looked like everywhere.

C However, I soon realized that this was not the true experience for every single American across the nation. When my family and I moved to Minnesota at the age of 13, I learned and experienced very quickly what it was like to operate and live in a much more homogeneous society. There are many moments of uncomfortableness, feeling unheard, and even racism, subtle and overt. To date this has been one of my biggest challenges with the architectural industry. Black architects Only represent about 2% of the entire licensed architecture population within the nation, while they actually represent 13 to 14% of the entire nation population. When first lady Michelle Obama was speaking at the 2017 AIA conference. She articulated it the best. She simply said, so many kids don't even know what an architect is.

C How can you be something when you don't even know it exists?

D From 16/19 to 18/65, black people were enslaved, and they were not allowed the opportunities to learn to read or write. That being said, college admissions right now on the whole is about performance. In 2019, the National Accrediting board reported that 5% of students enrolled in accredited architecture programs Identified as black or African American. And that 5% has been the case since 2009. So over the past 10 years, The percent of black or African American students has been 5%. Well, let's consider the 250 years I just mentioned And college admission. If getting into college period and then even more so architecture school is really about how well you performed on a series of assessments That are probably biased against you because in that 250 years, colonizers were able to determine standard American English was gonna be and prioritize what types of intelligence was important. So if performance on those types of assessments Are the gatekeeper for entry into college, then we should not be surprised that that statistic has not changed.

D Just imagine for a moment what it might look like if instead of we asked about this performance based idea, We asked aspiring architecture students, what impact would you make as an architect? That shifts the conversation from performance to potential. I also wanna acknowledge that during that 250 year time frame, slaves were not allowed to accumulate wealth. And in 2018, black men and women with master's degrees in architecture reported 2 to 3 times more debt than the collective average. And that collective average was around $40,000 of student loan debt. So we're talking 80 to a120 $1,000 of student loan debt. And again, we shouldn't be surprised because we have a group of people that were not allowed to generate wealth Of any kind for 250 years and then probably an additional 100 years of struggle if we consider redlining and Malpractice in in financial lending.

E I recently listened to a podcast that argued that college was no longer seen as the great equalizer. And it really resonated with me that before 2020, college did really seem like a ground zero for everyone to begin on equal footing. At least that's how it felt when I started my freshman year in 2010. We had a midsized class of about 40 students. And as the only black student, I always felt like I was disrupting the status quo or doing my part for the culture to change the narrative. Despite where we all came from, In my mind, we were all taking the same classes, learning the same concepts, studying abroad in the same countries, and what would define each of us was what we would do with that knowledge. 10 years later, as I continue into my career as an architect in Baltimore, It's become more evident that what we do with that knowledge is a lot more dependent on our perspectives outside of that equalizing classroom than I first realized. I I don't think I had fully grasped the severity of the lack of diversity in the architecture profession until after I had graduated.

E Going to a PWI in the middle of Pennsylvania, I was fully expecting there not to be any students of color in the architecture program, if there were any at all. I was going for architecture, and that's what I focused on. Being a black architect now, it's not that simple. Everything in the built environment has a consequential relationship with how America has constructed the system of race. How everyone is discovering the derogatory imagery in major brands like maple syrup and rice. I'm going through the same process right now with race and architecture, Reframing everything I learned in school about architectural history and practice and need to know buildings and architects in the context of 2020. Once we all understand that race plays a role in architecture, we can strategize to find ways to dismantle racism and discrimination in the built environment. In this united front to demand racial justice, I just hope it doesn't become another era in the historic time line that we pass over, But instead, a dynamic change in the push for equity in architecture.

F The one word that I would use to describe my relationship to the architecture field would be access. I only discovered architecture as I was entering high school because I had access to an architecture program. When I learned of the program and researched what architecture was, it piqued my interest And I decided to go for it. But as soon as I entered the program, I knew it was going to be a struggle. I was surrounded by white males entirely. My teachers were white males. My classmates were white males, and I was always the only black female. When we learned about architects, we learned about Thomas Jefferson, Frank Gehry, Frank Lloyd Wright, and I thought, are there any black architects? Was this really for me? But despite those thoughts, I was determined and, to be honest, a bit stubborn, So I decided to continue pursuing architecture in college.

F As I look for colleges, diversity became a huge factor in my decision. I wanted to be surrounded by diverse people and diverse thoughts, What I imagined architecture to be. I had already been in a program that was so homogeneous that all of the designs looked the same, and that's not why I was interested in architecture. So I decided to go to City College for its diverse program. And when I arrived, I was so excited to see all the diverse faces, and I thought, finally, Architecture is for me. But as I tried to enter the profession through internships and firm tours, those initial thoughts came bracing back because I never saw any black architects. Schist. None.

F And from those moments, I realized that although I was determined to be an architect, I was afraid that most of my peers, who like me, were apprehensive about the field, But had so much potential, would opt out of architecture because there didn't seem to be a place for us. Frustrated with the reality of the lack of diversity in architecture, I discovered NOMA. Shift. Gaining access to the successful and black and minority architects in NOMA reignited my passion for the profession as I became more involved in NOMA And the discussions on the issue of race and diversity in architecture. I heard a lot of the same explanations as to why there was a lack of diversity in the field. I heard that there weren't enough qualified students of color to be in these firms, and I questioned those reasons because I was surrounded by amazing students with incredible potential and ideas, But we didn't have the access to the opportunities that would allow us to get our foot in the door. A lot of the boundaries that were clear to us Weren't clear to the people who put them there. These opportunities for qualified students were usually only accessed through connections, and for many of my peers that knew no architects, that seemed unattainable.

F Other opportunities asked for criteria that had no bearing on our ability to design, but were things many of us couldn't meet. In our field, criteria that determines a great architect needs to be questioned. Practices ask students to work for free or for very little and don't provide the space for us to discuss issues that we shift or our community space as it relates to architecture, or the space for us to make connections that would encourage us to stay in this profession. The field as it is now Isn't welcoming or enticing to people of color.

G I'm not going to tell a story about my hardships But for the people who are already in it, we seem to not know what to do with them other than ask them how they're doing. However, our pain is not the price we pay to get jobs, to run for office or to earn licensure. My hardships are not what make me a good designer, but because I care about all human beings and planet Earth, Because I take the power of the built environment very seriously. Because I love the science of design and research based innovation. Because I actually enjoy group work and because I am allergic to toxic work environments. Those are the reasons why I am a good designer. And that's hard for me to say. I have no issue proudly declaring other truths, like the fact that black lives matter Or that this country is still being choked by white supremacy or that architects have had a deplorable hand in the oppression of indigenous people, immigrants, and people of color.

G But it's difficult for me to say that I am a good designer. Not a great one or even the best in my class, just a good one. And I think that's for many reasons. One of which being that I am a little wary of aspiring to be an architect with a capital a. Historically, in order to be a great architect or designer, you have to hurt people. You have to tear down before you build up. You end up taking credit for the work of others around you, and you're not allowed to design well for people who deserve it but can't afford it. And apparently, you can't be black.

G Or at least that's what I learned at school. I didn't learn about people like J. Max Bond or Paul Revere Williams or Norma Sklarik, Harvey Gant, Maurice Cox or even Stephen Lewis until I started attending NOMA conferences. And thank goodness I did. Because when people talk about the other most popular black architect, Doctor Whitney m Young, no one has ever mentioned a single building he designed. This profession and the people in it have remained the same for decades, if not centuries. They've been able to be known for what they designed more than for what they look like for centuries, and yet People in this planet are still dying from our addiction to harmful materials, and yet, histories that the built environment should record for posterity are still being torn down, spackled, covered with drywall, and painted over in beige. And yet, architects are still complicit, shift.

G Neither designing or abandoning overpoliced and over incarcerated neighborhoods. And yet, endless case studies and speculation about homelessness continue to be applauded and not seriously addressed, and yet the list goes on. And if the people of privilege that have had the corner market on this profession for centuries Still don't want to help fix those issues? Then the least architects can do is make room for the people of any background who do wanna do the work. They deserve to be there, Not because the numbers tell us they're missing, but because the buildings show us they are and because society feels like they are. Architecture wants more black architects. But take it from the token of every class I ever took in high school, every firm I've ever worked at, in every minority related committee I've ever served on. Bringing in more people of color to a homogeneous environment simply gives those in the majority the entitlement to stop caring. Architecture might need more black people, but it first needs more architects who care about black people.

G We need more designers who care about the disadvantaged not because they are brothers and sisters or because they look like us or because their hardships are just one misstep away from being ours, but because they're human beings. To quote popular culture, I don't know how to convince those who disagree that you should make it your life's work to care about other people. Architecture is nothing without people. Being black in this world today and for a while now means that you are, 1, burdened by unjust oppression, and 2, privileged or assigned with this righteous obligation to fix what is broken around you. I accept that purpose. But some days, I don't know if architecture is the career that will allow me to fix what is broken. The college advisers that sold me on architecture as an interdisciplinary and collaborative field of people who live to solve problems. They may have lied, but I'm in too deep now, and I don't regret a single thing.

G I get to, I want to, And I have to address inequity any way I can. And the greatest blessing of my life is that I can do it through affecting my favorite medium, the built environment. Even though that's not what a great architect would do, hopefully, that's what a good one would.

B We're gonna start by reading their bios to introduce you to them and then we will go on to their interviews. Leslie Epps, NOMAS student representative, AIAS and NOMAS leader at The City College of New York. Leslie Epps is an accomplished rising 5th year architecture student at the Bernard and Anne Spitzer School of Architecture. She's been passionate about architecture for half of her life and is eager to learn more and enact change moving forward in her career. Awarded NOMA student member of the year in 2019, Leslie founded the CCNY NOMAS chapter in 2018 And served as president until early 2020. Epps also received the title of NOMA student representative and serves on the NOMA board of directors for that role. In the future, she aspires to combine architecture with urban planning in an effort to address social issues and ultimately better society.

A Sarah Curry, AIAS associate AIA, NOMA. Sarah Curry just finished and exhilarating year of living and working in Washington DC as the 2019 2020 president of the American Institute of Architecture Students. None of that work would feel fulfilling though if she is unable to continue advocating for the underserved and supporting design students and others who are interested in designing responsibility for those who need it most. Originally from outside of Atlanta, Sara earned her BArch degree in 2018 from Auburn University and completed her thesis design build project at Rural Studio the following year. Her very flexible life plans include going to graduate school, teaching, and eventually enjoying nontraditional practice in the vast field of architecture.

B Beresford Pratt, AIA NOMA. Beresford Pratt is a licensed architect and associate at Air Saint Gros in Baltimore, Maryland Where he's worked on a multitude of educational institutional projects. He's passionate about active learning environments and pipeline initiatives, And he enjoys this cross pollination with his professional work. He's currently serving his 2nd year in the AIA as the Mid Atlantic Young Architect Regional director in the Young Architects Forum. And he is currently an editor for the YAF's publication Connection. Beresford is also a cofounder of Baltimore's local chapter of the National Organization of Minority Architects or B More NOMA. Beresford sits on the board and is the communications chair slash director. Outside of the industry, if he is not playing soccer.

B He is enjoying his time volunteering with the United Way Central Maryland, and he currently sits on the Emerging Leaders United Council.

A Melanie Ray, AIA NOMA, Lead Green Associate NCARB, Fitwell Ambassador. Melanie Arrae is a licensed architect and associate in the housing mixed use studio at Hoard Kufland Macht in Baltimore, Maryland. Since graduating from Penn State's architecture program in 2015, she has worked on various mixed use and affordable housing projects as well as community development projects in Baltimore City and beyond. She is the 424th living Black woman licensed in the US of practice architecture and seeks to be an active mentor to promote the goal of doubling the number of licensed Black architects by 2030. She currently serves as the vice president of the Baltimore chapter of NOMA, Be More NOMA, and the Northeast University liaison for NOMA National. In addition to her work at HCM, Melanie is a regular volunteer for pro bono design projects through such organizations as the Neighborhood Design Center and Habitat For Humanity.

B Kendall a Nicholson, EdD, Associate AI, Noma, lead GA. Kendall Nicholson is a licensed educator, trained architectural designer, and an avid researcher. He works as the director of research and information at the Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture or ACSA. With degrees in architecture, real estate, and education, his research explores the discipline of architecture through the lens of a social scientist. He has presented research internationally and his research interests around equity, education, and curriculum within the discipline of architecture. Nationally, his passion for equity and race relations manifest in his role as the lead researcher for the 2016 and 2018 equity and architecture survey sponsored by AI San Francisco and Equity by Design. He also volunteers as a member of The AIA's Equity and the Future of Architecture Board Committee and as an at large director for the AIA National Associates Committee leading a working group on mentorship and equity.

A We've asked Sarah Curry, who serves with me on the AIA National Board as a student representative, to lead us through a group discussion to help our audience understand how our industry can be better listeners, apply key lessons into our studios, and take meaningful action that supports individuals from diverse backgrounds.

H To get us started, please go ahead and introduce yourselves. Shows. We'll start with Kendall.

D Hello. My name is Kendall Nicholson. I am, not an architect, but I have an architecture background and I I work as a researcher. I'm from Virginia and I am still here in Virginia, actually born in Honolulu, Hawaii, but I call Virginia home And, yeah, I'm excited to be here.

I Hello, everyone. My name is Leslie Epps. I am a going into my 5th year as a student at City College in New York. I'm from Long Island, New York, and I live in currently in Harlem, New York City. And I am a student representative for NOMA.

E Everyone. My name is Melanie Ray. I'm an architect, working in Baltimore, Maryland right now. Shift. Born in Jersey, Upstate New Jersey, but raised down here in Prince George's County, Maryland. I've been here for about 5 years now, I'm also representing, NOMA as the Northeast University liaison, and sitting on the national board, along with Leslie.

J Everyone. My name is Beresford Pratt. I am an architect also here in Baltimore. And, I was born and raised in Gaithersburg in Germantown, Maryland. Currently representing the Young Architects Forum, as a young architects regional director for the Mid Atlantic for the AIA.

H Excellent. And, my name is Sarah Curry, and I am originally from Atlanta, Georgia, just outside of Atlanta. But for the past year, I've been living and working in, Washington DC as the president of the American Institute of Architecture Students. And, my turn is almost up, but this will be one of the last really fun things I get to do. So thanks, everyone, for Joining us, and for thanks in advance for your honesty and, for your comments. My first initial question, to everyone, but I will call in a couple people is, you know, what observations did you have from listening to each other's audio. I know Melanie and Leslie, both of you talked a lot about the school experience and the pedagogy. And so if either of you wanna comment on that first, that would be great.

E Sure. The funny thing about Our experiences is that, geographically, no matter where you are, everyone kind of had this same, like, Same struggle, in a way to come to the realization, and the acceptance that architecture was indeed A career option for them. We all kind of went through a period where we we had an moment. It was Wow. There's there's a lot of people that do not look like me in this profession, and kinda wondering, is this the right fit? Is is this, like, an acceptable field, to go into. I think some people have that moment of clarity sooner than others, But a lot of times, it does happen in in school, particularly for those of us that went to predominantly white institutions. That's kind of like the First thing that we understand, a lot of us being the only or one of less than 5 black students, in our respective classrooms. And so I think we all had that moment, pretty early on in our careers, and it's just interesting that it it just keeps happening, over and over again.

I Yeah. I would agree. I think listening to other people's stories really helped me put in perspective, like, what I had gone through. And I think I not that I thought what I went through was different, but it also felt I felt very alone going through that. Especially in high school, I was always the only black person. But when I went to college, I think, similar to what Melanie was saying as far as in her narrative that, You know, everyone starts on an equal footing. I think I I thought that as well, especially going to a very diverse school. I thought that even though we would all have struggles, we would all still be really strong in our effort to stay on the pathogenomics because I was very, you know, determined to become one, but I think Also seeing a lot of the obstacles that I faced, but I was able to, you know, keep my eye on the ball or keep my eye on the goal.

I A lot of my peers were just like, I'm not gonna do this anymore. I know so many people that are in architecture school that are incredibly talented, but There just doesn't seem to be a good path for them to go on, so they kinda wanna go into something adjacent or take their talents elsewhere. So I think that was really interesting to to learn for the differences, I guess, in our education.

H Yeah. It is. It's interesting, but not surprising, yes, how how connected, I felt to you all even just from hearing similar experiences, and that's another reason why I'm so glad for this podcast, but also for this time that we're moving into where more people are Talking about this sort of thing, just because I think there's power in realizing that other people are going through what you're going through. And I think, Isolation has been a tool that's been used against us for a really long time, and so glad that we're breaking those barriers down, and those those are maybe some of the easiest ones breakdown. Kendall and Beresford, I appreciated how, of course, Kendall, you were factual, in representing, the issue, Which has always appreciated and has really helped with the education piece of of what we're going through right now. But to the both of you, were there other similarities that you noticed or into listening to maybe hearing your own back in terms of realizing like, oh, I didn't realize that that was how I felt about it until I had to shift. Fill, fill out this message for the podcast.

J Yeah. It's kind of interesting. I'm gonna kinda build off of what Mel and Leslie were kinda sharing. I found it extremely interesting, 2 critical things while in academia. The first one was obviously the sheer numbers. Our graduating class was around half of the amount of students that we started off with, and when we first started, there were about maybe 6 of us that were black for African American and by the end of our graduating class, there were only 3 of us, which was Kind of amazing because we had more than any other class size in the entire program, and Mel can attest to that because she was the year below us. But Only 2 of us started pursuing architecture after we graduated. 1 of them instantly left.

J He just wanted to get the degree because he knew After his 4th year that he just wasn't gonna be able to do it. And what was very shocking to me outside the numbers was that in the curriculum, We were rarely taught about African American architects or black architects in general, so it's almost reinforced shift. This kind of stereotype in a way that African Americans or black architects didn't really have any major contributions to the design or the built environment, which is a complete fallacy, but it's if you don't see the work or you don't hear about the contributions, There's an assumption there that they just haven't really made a real impact.

D Yeah. Thanks for those comments. I think, in addition to that, I can I can say, that that disconnect for the black experience and really, I attended the University of Virginia? Really, Any nonwhite experience, there's a there's a large disconnect between, what might feel important to you and what is Taught and thought of and highly regarded as important. Additionally, I'll add this this little, anecdote that, it didn't I I remember there being a, an essential moment when it sunk in when I was in a studio class, as the only black person in that studio class, and And I took a call from my grandmother. And the way I speak to my grandmother is much different than the way I'm speaking to you all now, And the whole studio stopped. And they were like, woah, I I didn't realize you talked like that. You know? And so there's a lack of awareness of the lived experience and how something that small it it wasn't something that That shook me, but it's obviously something I remembered as being a, an experience, in studio that my white peers didn't necessarily Have. And so that feeling that I heard Melanie and Leslie, and Beresford talk about of being just different, I think is essential.

D And I would reference people to, doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum has a a book called why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria? Excellent book, and really kind of helps people uncover what that difference is and what it means.

H Excellent Point, and also an excellent book. And that, really brings me into my next question, which is, seems like a few of us, or most of us have Grown up in, or gone to school, I should say, in less diverse areas and obviously that is a separate education, a minor if you will, in, sort of how to how to succeed or excel in areas where you don't feel comfortable. And what I what I hope we're all in society moving towards is the sort of, place and space where diversity is more common. And I guess My question for you all, and and anyone can take this away, is how do people who are comfortable in homogeneous environments start to accept, and then, and then also learn how to excel in areas that are more diverse.

I I kind of had this experience because I was in a very homogeneous state in high school, and then going to college was very diverse. And while there was a culture shock, I think is really being open to learning from other people. I think a lot of professions, especially architecture, you have to learn from other people. That's how you become a better architect. So I think if you're slightly uncomfortable going into a more diverse space, think of it as an opportunity to learn from other people and how people live. I think that was the most incredible thing about going into diverse school is just I just lived fundamentally differently from another person. That didn't mean how I lived was better or worse, But it kind of opens your eyes to the needs of other people and what other people, you know, value in their life. And I it It makes you reevaluate a lot.

I I talk about this a lot as far as school. The 1st year is just like a you relearn everything. And whether that's drawing or just how to design, I think I relearned what it meant for other people to live and, like, how other people lived. And I think that was A beautiful thing when going into a very diverse space.

D In addition to that, the need, for right and wrong, That dichotomy should be eradicated. My wife is white, and when we first got married, there's this large need to figure out what was Who was right and who was wrong or what was right and what was wrong, and we have come to learn that it it's just different. Sometimes it's different, and There is not a a right or wrong approach. When you're when you live and commune in, homogeneous spaces, it's very easy to think that The the the homogeneous thought is right, and so valuing people's experiences becomes much more difficult Because you don't understand the difference.

E It's funny because when you're asking the question, I was thinking about it from 2 perspectives, 2 communities. Like, Are you asking the question from the perspective of a white student from a predominantly white area, grew up around all white people, And is now coming to terms or trying to see a future of architecture that is more diverse, or are you asking the question from the perspective of a black student From a predominantly black area who now has to, like, thrust themselves into and find a space for themselves in this very white industry. From both sides, You know, I feel like we all just need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and start to push those boundaries a lot more. The way that we start to, create more diverse societies, is to understand that we all have differences, but how can we be accommodating? How can we be understanding? How can we learn, from other people's perspectives and experiences without there being this feeling of, like, the other. You know, which Which one of these does not belong is not the question that we should be asking, but more so it's like, how can we take all these different assets and, you know, create a new industry moving forward.

J Yeah. I actually found that very interesting because the the question actually put me in a very unique spot because I realized that, as I kind of mentioned in my intro, growing up, I grew up in a very diverse, environment up until I was about 13. So I I learned very quickly how to operate in, a white space, and I think I found that the biggest strength for Pushing the needle forward in terms of a dialogue was much more of a intimate conversation 1 on 1 with friends Rather than having kind of this mass wave of here's how we have to do it. You're right. I'm wrong. It's a group herd mentality. It's more of a, hey, Joe, let's talk about this issue that came up and why I felt uncomfortable in that space.

H Those are great answers to, a question system that you're right was a little vague. But, yeah, I think I think you all gave really great, responses and I And I especially appreciate, Melanie, you breaking it down, because hopefully that is what will happen, right? People will have to be dealing with things they've never dealt with before, that, of course, some of us have been dealing with for a really long time. In that same vein, shift. Birstford and Melanie, both of you sort of touched on, how difficult it is to be what you can't see, and that concept which, I'm sure everyone is familiar with. One thing I've noticed and I wanna know if you all have noticed this also and maybe how you've Seeing people get around it in the in the profession is that, architects of color have a lot going on, you know? They've got, They're trying to excel in their practices. There's a lot of committees they've gotta be on, a lot of podcasts that they have to hop on. I've gotta I've gotta get into NOMA and then, I guess, sometimes also be involved with the AIA. It's a lot, I feel like personally, it's a lot to burden them, with in addition to mentoring, you know, being the sole mentors of The pipeline.

H And so, I guess, based on the work that you all have both done in those spaces and with the pipeline, How is the profession going to have to accept and mold some of these incoming, aspiring architects of color, even if they don't necessarily look like them.

E I'm glad you asked the question because, Bea and I had Sorry. We go way back. We, Beresford. We had a conversation a couple weeks ago where we were both talking about just like how exhausted we both were, trying to build the pipeline because with everything that's been happening, everyone's first reaction was to, like, turn to your black Friends and coworkers. Like, what do we do? What do we do? And it's like, first of all, this is a group effort. And on the one hand, like, I I appreciate The sudden need to now address what has been a glaring issue for so many years, but understanding that, like, they everyone has a role, to play in this. And so, you know, one one of the things that I appreciate, You know, within my firm and the what we're trying to do, you know, what our part can be in the the push for more equity in the practice of architecture Is the recognition from, most people who are higher up a lot a lot of people who are who are higher up in the firm that, you know, this this isn't a black Person issue. This is a white person issue that they need to be a part of the conversation and be, a part of that narrative, in terms of educating themselves and then turning around in what can they actively do, whether it's developing More meaningful relationships with students of color in architecture, who are majoring in architecture, developing a firm wide relationship with an HBCU, or an HSI trying to make sure that, we have meaningful Strategies and initiatives that it's not just, well, go tell us where the black architects are.

E Like, go find them and bring them to us. Like, no. Like, We are out here, and we can provide the the resources to kinda get there. But at some point, It needs to not be such a task. It just needs to be what we do.

H I cannot agree more, with that. But definitely, I love what you said. This is not it's not a black person issue, and it's not the sole responsibility, right, of of black people to solve this problem and then and then we clap and make it better. Baris, I don't know if you had anything else to add.

J So just a very quick background, my firm, Ayers and Croes, located in Baltimore, we have this long standing relationship with an elementary school in West Baltimore called Beachwood Elementary. So we do a lot of, design sessions educating them on, multidisciplinary design because we do picture landscape, interior design planning, the whole gambit. And so the exposure to, the students on on these design industries is very impactful. But I think there's also a level, of representation that also needs to play a role in, who's educating in those seminars. Thought it was a good idea to also bring Morgan State students, which is an HBCU located in Baltimore, which has an architecture program, to speak at that session Because I wanted the students to be able to see a natural stepping stone into academia from another student who actually also lived within that environment shift in in Baltimore and in the city, that is. And so I think that's one, actionable step is bringing somebody who maybe is within that same sphere That can make it a little bit more approachable and digestible and more realistic for them.

H Definitely. I'm so glad you touched on on the real realism aspect because I feel like, you know, at these career days and such, like, at school and everything, that's where we get to see all of these things that you can be. And I mean, I feel like I heard about astronauts more than I heard about architects curling up, which doesn't make any sense because, You know, you're not really gonna come into contact with an astronaut, outside of a career fair, or or an IMAX theater near you. So, Kendall and Leslie, I'll ask you all to actually step outside of the educational, realms that you all might be really familiar with and schistick to the public, and particularly young people.

D Let me just say, Sarah, I, I had the biggest smile on my face as you were saying this because, I spent some time working, and teaching architecture to grade 6 through 12. And one of my biggest gripes were that, students, young children, even elementary students didn't know what an architect did. And so, that career day comment is exactly, my thought has always been that you can feed 2 birds with 1 scone by Educating students about architecture and they then go home and tell their parents about architecture and then the the ball moves a lot, faster that way. But, outside of an education, an an educational setting, I think it's important. I think, community engagement tends to be the the fastest way to to reach people. In the ideal world, I would love to see, architects more in media to be able to turn I mean, when engineers decided to make a campaign for diversity, We saw it on TV. We'd see commercials. I mean, the BP's bill, they took something so negative and then, diversified who they who they, Showed us re as a path forward.

D And I think architecture could take that same lesson and hopefully manifest itself, in that way. Oftentimes, the public appreciates, black designers as laborers. Right? So Slaves as masons or carpenters. And so I think just reimaging, who That black designer, who that designer of color, native designer could be is is probably, Would be my approach.

E And I think just in general, architecture could do a better job of like, The entire field could just do a better job of outreach. I mean, the fact that all of us knew what a lawyer, doctor, astronaut, You know, we knew what these professions were because they were brought up in our regular education. And so perhaps partnering with shift. K through 12 educators so that architects do come up more in the sphere of conversation. And further, you know, Black architects become a part of that dialogue. I mean, we we all knew who George Washington Carver was, but, like, none of us did biology. Why is that? We can do so much more to to educate just so it's, like, brought up in the regular curriculum.

H I know it just feels like it's taking up so much space in my head now, like all of these other professions and careers, which ultimately do help us be better architects And designers, right? Because we're, I guess, we're more empathetic and we're thinking about other people a little bit more, but, but maybe that's, also part of the situation is that there's a switch, that has to be flipped in which we get people to think about us in our in our jobs and what we can do for the community a bit more, which is, yeah, definitely a bit of a paradox. Oh, yeah. Go ahead, Kendall.

D Let me also say, I think it's really important for the profession as a whole to define what architects do. I think, architects sit in this space between art and science. And we love sitting in that space, but it makes it really hard for the public to understand where we can be useful because we'll say to them, oh, we can be useful on this really small interior project. We can be useful on, you know, a skyscraper. We can be useful If you just wanna, look at the site, and we can be useful if you I mean, there are all these different we can be useful just to organize the The community engagement meeting because we are great citizens. And while all those things can be true, I think, one of the one of the key differences between our understanding of a doctor, an, an attorney, an astronaut is that the definition is pretty specific. And so, architecture for an architect to say architects design building would feel way too limiting, But that's kinda what the public needs to be able to understand what an architect when you call an architect or, You know, how an how an architect, impacts your daily life.

H For sure. And I'm so glad, that you mentioned that because, There are unfortunately many people who don't necessarily agree with us about sort of the scope of what architecture is and can be, and Lately, I felt like sometimes those are the loudest people. Right? The people who are like, architecture doesn't have anything to do with, social issues, so I don't know why you're even bringing this up right now. Or at least I feel like that's what I've heard, through through my roles and obviously scrolling through the trolls on, The Internet and such, lately. And so I guess my my question for for everyone is sort of, Some people might call it a hot take. I don't feel like it's a hot take. I would say that a this profession, shift. Doesn't have room for people who feels who feel that there's any group of people who are less than, or who don't deserve good design.

H And all of you are lightly nodding, but, yeah, I invite anyone to sort of speak on that a little bit more or maybe deadweight does the profession have to drop in order to get to, this higher plane, of potential that I think we're all sort of discussing today?

I I would have to agree that, you know, there isn't room for people who don't think social issues pertain to architecture because I think what's funny about architecture is, although I love it, I feel like we have a really bad rap. We just do. Like, when you think of, you know, Maine architects, They're not, you know, they're not great people in the sense that I wouldn't aspire to be them, like, as a person. And I think a lot of times, People view architecture as very, I think, violent and aggressive, especially in minority neighborhoods, where, you know, you're tearing down buildings, you're building things up higher and kind of daunting At a certain scale, and I feel like a lot of professions, aside from architecture, when you're talking about medicine and law, we're moving more towards a place where we're working to serve society rather rather than ourselves. And I think the architecture is behind the ball on that, in the sense that, You know, the idea of the star architect has become so popular now, whereas in my view, it shouldn't be about us. It shouldn't be about the architect. It should be about who you're designing for, Because those are the people who are going to decide whether your design is good or not. I personally the criteria that I think of when I think is this building a good building or not It's how do people live in there? Do people enjoy being in that space? And I think without taking into account social issues as far as how people live, You know, the needs of people and what they value.

I You're not gonna create good architecture that's gonna last a while And and be valuable. I think a lot of us would agree that architecture that is useful and that, you know, has a staying power, I think that heavily correlates with having to deal with social issues that that community is dealing with. And I'd rather have, you know, a smaller building that actually works for its community than a big, you know, chess Tall building of glass that no one really enjoys.

J Yeah. Something that kind of came to mind was Along the lines of, what kind of drives us as architects to do the work. And For being very honest, the profession is driven by capital. And so that's the biggest resource, That can help kind of shift the needle on the conversation. I was listening to a great webinar, which was Kind of led by Brian Lee, founder of Collate, and he made this very poignant and stinging point that We have this conversation of EDI or JEDI, justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. But the only way we can get diversity and inclusion shift. Is shifting the resources to the population that has been the most disenfranchised. I think that will help change the conversation and the narrative around, what architecture can look like for communities that maybe have been disenfranchised or challenged, but more so, I think it would put the power In the hands of the people who are speaking the less the least, I should say, or has the least vocal power.

E So part of his platform is to, divest from the carcel state. So architects should not be contributing to the creation of mass incarceration, facilities. And one of the question was asked, like, well, are you telling us to turn away clients? I was like, yes. That that is going to be, the demand, the ask, for the future of architects. And I think what we have to realize is shift. The the generation of architects coming up, like, this is the focus. We we care about social issues. We care about environmental justice.

E This is what we choose to focus our education on in school. And so I I think as we progress, we'll definitely see more of a shift towards the the same way that sustainability 25 years ago was, taboo and now is, like, the norm, the standard. We'll slowly start to see that see the industry arcing in that direction. But I think what it it's gonna take is organizations like the AIA to set that stage. You know, it it can't be a it's been a grassroots effort for so long that if If we wanna see true change, we need to, you know, incorporate those stances into, for example, the code of ethics that we do not contribute to the built environment that, you know, isolates and punishes people for, minor offenses, and when we try to work more on, rehabilitation, of them back into society. You know, the the biggest challenge I think that we're all gonna face is how do we reconcile Client demands with the social need. I I know coming from experience working, In the housing and mixed use studio, in my firm, you know, we do luxury and market rate housing. And I love doing that work, but then at the same time, I'm also grappling with the fact that, like, well, how much am I how much is this project, like, changing the the dynamic of that particular community.

E But at the end of the day, it's the client's property and the client's, like, do this, this, this, and this. And so I I constantly find myself grappling with that particular challenge that we are architects who are hired to do a service, and we're not always in the decision making seat with a lot of these projects. That's something that I I don't know the answer to that.

D In response to your question about what dead weight we we need to get rid of, the first thing that came to mind was The policies, the programs, and procedures that don't recognize systems in history. So when I think about, Beresford, to your point that, that your reference to Brian, Lee junior, his point about equity, I think That if I think we have to go in the inside, take a look at the policies, programs, and procedures that do build that, luxury Mixed use housing in places that may not be ideal and then address that because I don't think, As Melanie stated, it it's kind of, or it's been grassroots for a long time. And despite the fact that black is trendy right now, I think the best use of our our resources would be to help people with power who are starting to recognize what those systems and histories r transform the policies, programs, and procedures because I think there's a natural desire for people to have rules and regulations. And so they tell you They they, sometimes care less about your story and more that this policy sorry. We have this policy. This policy doesn't. We can't actually go against the policy or, you know, whatever the procedure is. And so giving some standardization, I talked A little bit about how they were 250 years, where colonizers were able to set up those policies, programs, and procedures for how to speak, How to dress, how to, establish wealth.

D I think that, working from the inside train is probably What I would do.

E It it's funny. It's almost like we have to go above the the heads of Those who are directly, impacting the projects or making the decision on the projects so that we never get to the point where, you know, you can completely demolish, a neighborhood of affordable housing for market rate. You know? We we start to get into those policies. But, Yeah. I I definitely see a lot of the movements that are taking place right now are focusing more on how to shift policy so that architects are not put in that position where we have to for the you know, for those who do care, are forced to Decide between good and bad, with our projects.

J Yeah. Something that, that I found very interesting now when you're talking about market But But what if, like, architects could look at compensating, leaders within the community, Bringing them in as consultants to discuss kind of design practice, intents, and, what the community kinda needs. This this goes back to my comment about maybe shifting some of the resources to those who probably have a more marginalized voice. I think probably one of the biggest challenges, for architecture is that it's the 80 20 rule. About 80% of all architects work in, what, like, 20% of the firms or, something along those lines where These large firms usually work for 1% clients. That's major institutions, big developers, big business. Nothing inherently wrong with these institutions. Rather, it just means that we have to work a lot harder To make sure they're advocating for the the more marginalized voices because, a lot of these larger institutions are driven by, there's a bottom line to to some of the work outside of the functionality.

J They need to make sure that their financial metrics do work, And so I think that's one of the biggest challenges that we as architects do face.

H Kind of what you were saying, Melanie and Kendall, it's It's an interdisciplinary problem. It's something that architects, have the ability to contribute to and help fix. But ultimately ultimately, I think we do need the help of other, Other professions and other careers and and things of that nature to sort of help us, quote unquote, save the world, and really to solve this issue of of Racial based racially based injustice, but also sustainability based, equity for all and that sort of thing. And it's really something that's intrigued me for a while now is sort of the fact that, America's issues, and essentially global issues All sort of have these microcosms that also exist in the sphere of architecture, which makes me wonder if all of these issues actually also exist in other professions. Something that I've been struggling with is I don't know if I shift. Care so much or feel like I have this responsibility to care so much because I am a designer or because I'm black. And coming to terms with that has been something that I've been working on, for a while and especially lately. But The question that I'm trying to get around to is, is architecture the best way to address these issues? Is that the best field to go in? Do you think that if the 4 of us 5 of us were, lawyers or shifters or, you know, or social workers? Would we have an easier time, or or would it be better for us if we all went and got our MBAs, real quick and then came back.

H Would we solve more issues then?

I I I'm gonna stay. I I think architecture is definitely a way to go Because, a, I think baseline, we could go into these other professions, and I've thought about this as far as, like I've seen so much injustice that I've thought to myself, should I just be a lawyer? Like, Can I really do that? But my passion is here, and I think that's really go what's gonna drive me forward in in solving these issues. Because With my passion here, like, I don't feel like I'm gonna get in the weeds as much as if I went into another profession just because I thought that was the way to go. Also, I think architecture I think, Kendall, you're right in the sense that we definitely need to define it at a much simpler scale for the rest of, You know, the citizens in the world. But I think for me, what I love about architecture is there's so many things you can do with it. I think fundamentally, Architects are problem solvers. That's what we do. So whether or not you're going to be working in a firm and you're problem solving there, or you're working for the community and you're problem solving there, I think Architects have a lot of, you know, power in our knowledge.

I We learned so much. Like, architecture to me is just amalgamation of so many different topics from history to physics to, you know, psychology. I think you can take What you learn and apply it somewhere. I don't think we can expect every architect to do everything, but I think whether you're going to a firm, like I said, or you might go and work for the community and work to help community understand the terms and conditions and the policies that do exist. I think we need to be better at Using our skills in different ways. And I think the younger generation is is really looking to this in the sense that there's so many different paths you can do, with the tools that you have, and you can still stay in this, in this profession. So I think, yeah, I'm I'm a stay an architect, And whether or not I go into a firm and I I work there, if I decide, you know what, I wanna do it in another sector, working with the community or working with businesses, I think there's so much that we can do as architects because of the tools that we've learned and our experiences that'll help us really tackle these issues shift. With other professions as well.

I Like, you can have architects working with lawyers to talk about social justice and, you know, the spaces that create these, shift, conditions for crime to exist. I think that's a discussion that can be had, but we have that wherewithal, that knowledge to really have these conversations.

D I think that's a great point. And, I too have been thinking about this, you know, I sit right outside of the discipline in that I'm situated inside, but I my my main role as a researcher. One of the things that I really had to come to terms with And I don't know exactly when that happened. It might have been this year. It might have been 5 years ago, but I had to come to terms with the idea that it didn't matter How smart I was or how well spoken I was or how, what skills that I really had Is that the issue was gonna stay the same. So I think more recently to Central Park Karen, and her Idea that she was threatened by a Harvard educated, African American bird watcher And just the irony the irony in that. And so, I love the question about where the, What what profession kinda has the ability to be the most impactful, but I think I've found that It wouldn't matter whether I was an an attorney, whether I was an architect, whether I, I've, you know, worked as an educator, That the issue still remains the same in that in each of those roles, you you have to and kinda back to your point the point you made earlier about Being 1 person to represent 100. Right? You still have this burden that you take up with pride, but a burden nonetheless To educate and fight the good fight and help explain and help under help people understand why this fight is important So not only you, because you might be well educated and well spoken and all of these things, but why Why it's beneficial for for really everyone.

E I won't say that I, disagree, but I'll say it's My perspective is more of it it's a yes, and. So, like, yes, architects can be a part of the strategies to Address these issues, but I do think that, we need that the partnerships that we develop, whether it's Finding, partnering with a social justice, like, organization or partnering with a sustainability consultant or, You know, we we we are delegates of we delegate task. We hire consultants to do kind of like the specialty work. And so we have a a unique set of skills to manage, organize, and come up and kind of put the the solution to the problem together, But we can't architects are not trained to solve those issues alone. You know, I I think that is why you do see so many people either leaving their profession or going back and getting, like, a master's shift degree in kind of like a supplemental study area because they they learned what a planned section is. They learned how to do renderings. They learned Revit. They learned AutoCAD.

E But then they realized I need to heighten my understanding of specific issues. And because of that, I need to go out and She got her undergraduate degree in graphic design, but then she realized that her passion was, like, helping students within shift. Higher education, specifically, marginalized and underrepresented students and making sure that they graduate and and get through their their, studies. And so she took her graphic design skills to create illustrations, to, find ways to be more graphically involved, but her focus area is now diversity within higher education. So it's like a,

J are master collaborators. So our job intent is really to tie together very unique voices, perspectives, industries altogether and try to get them, on the same page in terms of, what the stakeholders wanna achieve. And, So to to your question, I wanted to answer the question as, yes, I think there are a 1000000 industries They can achieve a certain result a lot faster, but it's very nuanced and can be very specific. And I I heard in academia that architects are very good at knowing a lot or little About a lot of things. And many other industries, and they usually pointed at engineers, know a lot about a little. And I think that's where architects' biggest strength is, is that we can we can synthesize and pull together a lot of unique voices.

H That was perfect. You really tied that together really poetically. Harrisburg, thanks so much. And thanks to all of you for contributing. I mean, It's definitely something that I've been, struggling with and and thinking through personally. So I also appreciate this convo because that was really reaffirming and validating. But I think it's a question that a lot of young people are facing right now as they are graduating. They're looking at a field that actually doesn't have a lot of jobs for them.

H Inside, they have a passion for this kind of work or for working somewhere that they don't have to feel guilty about. And I think that the logical next question is, you know, is it is it architecture or can I actually complete my life's work in a different field? And so, I I agree with all of you that I think architecture is it for me, Because I'm too hooked, but, but hopefully by collaborating, and, and working around The problem from many different angles and perspectives, which I think has sort of been the theme for today. Hopefully, we can do our part to contributing towards a society that is more equitable. Which brings us into our last discussion topic For everyone here, wow, time flies, and you're having a great chat. I wonder what an equitable profession looks like. I wonder what, what will the podcast be about when this is not a topic anymore or what will, you know, what will we focus on when, when this I don't wanna say that the issue is solved, because I Personally, not sure when it will ever be solved or I feel like there will always be someone who is underserved that someone else should be focused on serving. Shift. But what is the long standing definition of an architect that can address not only this issue, but the issues that are headed our way in the future.

E I think it's hard to Answer that question because it we haven't had an equitable profession. And so part of I I'm glad that, in your question, you shifted from, like it it's not that we're working towards an official solution. Like, there's no deadline, which has been one of the one of the things that I'm trying to explain to folks is, like, well, what books can I read and what what can we do so that racism goes away? Like, racism is not going away. But there's a journey that we all need to take to get to that equitable practice. And who knows if we're gonna know what it feels like when we get there, because at the end of the day, there There's always gonna be something that can be worked on, that can be improved, that can be fixed. And so I I just hope that we can Figure out, you know, what that eventually looks like. I think there are there are bits and pieces that we're starting to figure out that can be specifically addressed, shift, to help create that more just industry. But I I don't know what what it looks like at the end of the day.

E I think that's part of the conversations that we have to have is, like, figuring out what what that is and and what that looks like.

J Yeah. I I think my biggest challenge with, also answering that question is because the industry and the demographics of our nation are so dynamic And are constantly changing. So it's gonna be very hard to be able to pinpoint the issues and answer them at a rapid pace When they're gonna shift very quickly. So I think my biggest vision of of equity For the industry would be one representation that looks like our United States of America. That's one of the biggest, and I don't want to say easiest, but one of the biggest things that we could work towards developing and that's through the pipeline, of course. But then the 2nd part of that is really, I'm going to sound like a, I don't know, a broken record, but the reallocation of resources shift so that we could kind of shift who has the loudest voice. This does not mean you just Remove power from 1 to give it to another, but it's a a slow shifting and melding of, lifting up That's probably gonna be one of the biggest game changers, in terms of achieving equity.

I I envision equity as more of A process or a condition rather than a solution or an end goal. I think what we're asking for is just, honestly, a space for these issues to be discussed. And again, we mentioned this before as far as, like, getting rid of the idea that there's a right and a wrong way to do things. I think architecture, A lot of times that is, like, the main idea is, like, there's a right way to do things in a wrong way, and this is the right type of people, and this is the wrong type of people. I think when we get to an equitable place where we're in an equitable process of learning about architecture and practicing architecture, you're really gonna see a lot of An understanding of things that have happened to many people. I think that's baseline. We need to have better education when it comes to The obstacles many people have faced, but also just creating a space for these discussions to be had and for them to be a part of practice fundamentally. I think equity is we don't have to have these conversations when something bad happens.

I I think equity is we're constantly having these conversations, And we're constantly thinking of ways to make our profession better and to make it, work for more people. I think that's what I would envision equity for architecture to be.

D I agree. I think to everyone's points, I kind of when, Sarah read that question, I I started to really Imagine much like my 4 year old would imagine, what that could look like, and I think you're spot on, Sarah, by saying that it's not, a one and done solution. But I can imagine, a a place where, students who are interested in architecture, specifically, black indigenous and people of color, students of color would Be able to readily find a role model that looks like them. Like, it it would not be, very difficult to do and I can imagine, a place where one of the things that one of the things that's really gets me about, people talking about diversity, particularly in academia, Is that it's spoken of still as part of the collective. Like, I want diversity within my collective. So I don't necessarily want, I'll use my cousin as an example. I don't want my cousin to to walk into the architecture firm and his long white tee and and air force one. Like, That is different, and that's not a part of the diversity and the equity that that I I want in my space.

D I want, shift. Kendall to come in and say, hello. How are you doing? You know, and have this conversation, and that's a really different thing. So I would imagine that Both me and my cousin and my barber and all of these people that, that identify as black would also be able to enter an architecture shift. And, be able to navigate that space. And then I also lastly, I I I'm always pushing for social relevancy. So I I can imagine a space where an architect is, a household career as you suggested earlier, and people know what architects do.

E Yeah. And I also I look forward to the day, kinda like how you're, Kendall just saying that when everyone can see themselves and just comfortably walk into to the architecture profession when when diversity becomes the norm and not the exception, if if that's a weird way to put it. I guess, I don't know if diversity then if that negates that it's normal, but don't check me on grammar. But I, I remember being asked one day, like, well, how did, by an older, white women in the field. Like, well, how did you get into architecture? And it wasn't until after I walked away from the conversation that I realized he was like, wait. You're you're not usually here. How did you get into it? And it shouldn't be like you you made it. You were an exception to the rule.

E It should just be a a casual conversation of, like, well, tell me about your experience in architecture. But the the fact that it's so, strange that it's it's you know, you're a unicorn at this point. I look forward to when it we can just have conversations, you know, equally about our experiences, in the field.

D Well and I I I wanna also circle back to, Barrett's first point about capital, and resource allocation because, I could also imagine a space, You know, the the land of America does not actually belong to white or black people, but to the native people that were here, and so, I can imagine a a profession that not only acknowledges the the tribal nations that, ship Occupied the land in which we are designing buildings on, but also reallocates resources to those tribal nations. So it's one thing I'm sure, you know, many people have seen, a land acknowledgement happen. And so it's one thing to Acknowledge that that land, the land that you're meeting on, the land that you're building on, once belonged to a tribal nation, But it's another thing to make that acknowledgement and then make a financial contribution to that tribal nation because otherwise, you'd just be saying, We took this land and we recognize that we took it from you. Great. Like, you know, the I think that's the difference between diversity. Diversity being the acknowledgement And appreciation and awareness and equity actually switching it and saying, okay. So we took something from you. So we have something to give back to you, and And we recognize that it it doesn't actually amount to to what we took.

I Also to jump on that point, I think what I would love to see It's just an appreciation of the values that different cultures have and how that can play a role in architecture. I commented on this in my narrative where I feel like now, The way that even we talk about architecture sometimes, it just feels like a very Eurocentric way of going about it. Like, that's the way it's been talked about for centuries is how we're gonna continue. Whereas I think I would really love to see, an appreciation and an openness to the different ways the different culture's design, and how we can use that now and and apply that to the things the issues that we have now. I would love that, just like the way that African nations design, or even indigenous nations, How they previously practiced architecture, and what can we learn from that, and how do we make sure that that's still a part of the future of architecture and that's not just, know, the past ancestral sort of way of designing. I think they have a place here in the way that we design now.

J Yeah. Something I definitely look forward to Within the industry is on an individual level, each individual architect, designer, Their personal relationships are much more diverse because I think that is where A genuine change of heart begins to take place when you have a very intimate relationship with somebody who does not believe, shift. Look or think like you. And I think architects are notorious for moving within very similar circles. We have a lot of architecture friends and sometimes a lot of our architecture friends may look like us. So if we can challenge the notion that Our close and most intimate relationships need to be like us. I think it can start to change the dialogue a little bit on a much more personal level.

H First of all, I love this list that we've come up with. It feels like a manifesto. This has been terrific. I'm I'm really reminded of how well and how empowering these conversations can go when we're brave enough to to ask the questions. And at the same time, everything that you all just mentioned is like Another podcast episode. I mean, the definition of diversity and how that varies every time, Resource allocation, the sociology and psychology of, of equity from that lens, Kendall, the perceived dichotomy of being black. All of these things. Really could spend a whole other hour talking about them, each.

H But I really appreciate, you all contributing to the definition and I hope that, I mean, we can even achieve Even half of those things in my lifetime, that would be fantastic to see. Because last question, I guess I'll I'll also throw in a definition to the list, and and that's that I think an equitable profession would feel like one that puts people first, Both the people inside of it and outside of it before anything else.

B It's so powerful Hearing someone's story and when you have someone's trust to to allow them space to open up and tell their truth, That's really powerful because you actually get to understand what their experience is. But oftentimes, I think in a professional setting, it's really hard Get to those conversations because there's a formality to working and feeling like you have to Compartmentalize a little bit of your personal life or your personal experiences to fit within an architecture studio that has a very specific culture. So Sometimes those conversations just can't happen without space and trust and A willingness to listen to those conversations. And so I feel very lucky that we were able to hear these stories because they are They're a bit sacred in some ways to these individuals who've lived these experiences and and were were brave enough to share them with us today.

A Yeah. I think the biggest thing that I've struggled with throughout everything that's going on with Black lives matter is my ability to contribute to that conversation and and to be a person that helps move that message along. But if anything because it because it is big, and it is daunting, and it's It's something that's systemic, and it's something that's gone on forever in the background. But because of all of that, We each need to find our own meaningful way to be a part of that conversation to help move things forward. Whether that is understanding their perspective better, whether it's taking the positions we have to ensure to help raise up the voices of those individuals, whether it's making sure we show up at our kids' career. Now I'm, like, guaranteeing I was like, I better go to my kids' career days, just to tell to tell them the story of why an architect is, You know, there's so much more that we can do every day to to move this forward, and we can only and it'll only move forward collectively.

B Yeah. It's it's it's hard to know that anyone has an experience in this profession where they feel held back in any way or unseen, but it does happen. And I think, we All have the responsibility to listen right now and to learn from each other and to stop jumping ahead with our own conclusions about Things without listening first, because I think that's the biggest mistake people are making. We have to welcome different voices in and hear them, really truly hear them. And the and the responsibility is on everyone as an individual to take ownership to Learning and to understanding where you're at in these conversations and to seeking out information session where you're uncomfortable or you don't know, or maybe you haven't heard another perspective. And just being open To listen and to understand where there might be a gap between what you understand and what someone else understands.

A And the beautiful thing about doing that is that it can only make the profession better. We are a profession that serves the people. It was interesting to talk about human, you know, or to to always be talking about human centered design, but now more than ever is the necessity to put people first in every possible way and to hold that up. And in the end, I I feel like In doing so, we can only make this profession a better place. Not from an equity and inclusive nature, but, also, It will raise the profile of architects, and it will give us a greater voice in our communities going forward. Shift. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice disrupted.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

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