Training the Next Generation of Leaders

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. So this next conversation that we're hoping to dive into really talks about leadership and supporting how That next generation of leadership, Janine, since you were really quintessential to pulling this particular group together around leadership development and especially since this whole idea of next generation of leaders has been an important part of your ongoing contributions how to the AIA, but also a catalyst for some of the work that you are wanting to do with Apostrophe Consulting. Why don't you talk how us about your view on why this is so important and prevalent right now.

B I think a lot of my interest in leadership development how stems from my involvement with the American Institute of Architecture Students and the AIA. So early on, for those who don't know, I was really active with the AIAS. And when I got out of school, I immediately got involved with AIA. My time with both organizations taught me a lot about the value that young designers can have in sharing their leadership at an early age. And yet, when I started working for architecture firms, I was really shocked to see that young designers had a tendency to be quiet, dutiful, and they either maybe felt like they how couldn't speak up or they weren't sure how to. I'm not sure. I I think I've seen a variation of both. But, ultimately, it seemed like how There was a lack of participation where people were maybe not even being shown how to speak up in their firms, and that has really bothered me because I think that it's a missed opportunity and that we're missing a lot of really great ideas from young designers coming into firms.

B And, of course, not only in firms, but out in their projects and into society. So I've been interested in creating programs through the AIA that showed next generation leaders how to do how how to use their voice and implement change, basically. And that started with a lot of the programs that I worked on with the AIA and through my volunteer work, how And then ultimately, I ended up helping to design a national leadership program for the AIA called the AIA Leadership Institute. But now in my consulting work, I'm trying to figure out how to teach firms how to bring that leadership development piece how into practice so that they can provide continuing education internally to their staff to talk about leadership development how and how young designers can show up and what that looks like and when it's appropriate. And just helping the next generation find their voice how it is really important to me.

A And I think that's not only true, frankly, of young designers, but I would say there are how The majority of mid career professionals even struggle with that as well. I think we might have two how Different definitions of what the next generation of leadership is, but I I think it's for me, the collective next generation leadership is just the future of the profession. Passion.

B I agree. I think the more that I started doing leadership development work, I realized that how Everyone struggles with it, and it's not just the young designers in firms. It's everyone. I mean, all the way up to firm management. Architects in general, I think, how our they're really strong leaders in many capacities, and we've talked about this before on the show. But how in some areas they struggle, and there are some really common ways that they struggle. Agreed. So what how Are you hoping we get out of the conversation with our guests, and what themes would you like our listeners to be paying attention to? The primary focus of this episode is how to underscore the importance of leadership development in architectural practice.

B It's something that we shouldn't be ignoring. How we should spend time on talking about leadership development with our staff, and the team that we're invited have been very instrumental in developing various leadership development programs that are specifically designed for architects and designers. And they're gonna be explaining what leadership development is, what skills are most commonly missing for architecture studios and how firms can support leadership development in their studios.

A So we're gonna start by diving into the 3 different leadership programs we are hearing from today how as well as the individuals who founded them or continue to build upon the foundation that they have previously developed. How The Christopher Kelly Leadership Development Program. Beginning in 2013, the AIADC chapter undertook an initiative to develop a program which would help train and nurture the next generation of leaders. With the success of the previous program years, the Christopher Kelly Leadership Development Program how looks to secure a promising new faction of scholars in 2020 and 2021.

C How The year long

A program consists of 9 individual half day sessions attended by a competitively selected group of 16 emerging professionals. How And just for listener's sake, a definition of an emerging professional within the AIA is defined as someone who has graduated how from college with an architectural degree and is within 10 years of their 1st licensure. Prospective participants how must go through an application process for selection where proven career success, community involvement, and an individual's firm support will be considered. How Ryan McEnroe is an associate at Quinn Evans in Washington, DC. As both a licensed architect and landscape architect how grew up on an organic farm. Ryan has a unique understanding of sustainability practices. With his 13 plus years of professional experience, Ryan allows his firm to embrace a wide range of project types and has spoken and written extensively on how agriculture can serve as an amenity. He is a cofounder and past chair of the AIADC Christopher Kelly leadership development program and currently serves as a 2020 chair for the National AIA how Young Architects Forum.

A He has been recognized with the AIADC Emerging Architect Award in 2014, an AIA Young Architects Award, how ENR Mid Atlantic Top Professionals Award, BD plus c 40 and 40, and the AIAS Emerging Professional Honor Award, all in 2018.

B The 2nd leadership program that we're gonna be discussing is called AIA Forefront. The vision of AIA Forefront is to inspire, empower, and engage architects and emerging professionals so that they become effective leaders serving at the forefront of society's most pressing challenges. How this virtual event brings together visionary speakers on individual, civic, and professional leadership for the architectural profession. How So for those who know, I was very involved in the original launch of this program back in 2015. And since then, over 1700 architects and designers have how participated, and over 15 AIE components have been involved. The program has always had a digital element, and this year will be the 1st year how it goes entirely virtual. So by participating in this program, you can expect to get inspiration from industry leaders, how learn from their talents and their influence, and how they positively impact their communities, revolutionize the industry, and advocate for positive change in their companies. You can also learn how design professionals leverage their unique positions to lead towards a sustainable future in the built environment.

B How and last but not least, you can build strategic leadership skills in interactive workshops on leadership planning and execution, conflict resolution and negotiation and organizational leadership. And the guest that we've invited to speak on behalf of the Forefront team is Corey White. How Cori White brings an open mindedness and creativity to her role as an architect and urban planner. She applies her dual master's degrees architecture in urban and regional planning to an interdisciplinary approach that creates impactful outcomes for her clients and the community. How Corey currently works for DLR Group in Chicago, and she's focused primarily on educational facilities master planning for k 12 school districts. In 2018, Corey stepped into the cochair role for the AIU Leadership Institute, guiding the vision and programming for the one day national leadership conference. How with her cochair, Sarah Walgren Wingo, they revamped what is now known as Forefront, a one day virtual event that will provide leadership training for architects at all career levels regardless of their area of practice. Corrie is recognized for her leadership within the architectural community.

B Recently, she was elected to the AIA Strategic Council as an at large representative for 2021 and 2022, and has been awarded the AIE Young Architects Award, the BD Plus C 40 Under 40, and the AIE Colorado Leadership Award. And as a side note, I'm really proud of Corie because she recently started her MBA program and has been awarded a scholarship through the Forte Foundation, for her academic achievement, and so I'm wishing her great success this fall semester.

A How The 3rd program that we're gonna look at is the AIA New York Civic Leadership Program or CLP. The AIA New York Civic

C how Leadership program, CLP, develops a class of

A emerging architectural professionals into civic leaders by refining the critical skills that design professionals need to better represent the people that they serve. They do this by increasing architects' connections to their communities, how Developing their advocacy capacities and supporting their pursuit of public service in elected or appointed office. How Each year, the CLP selects 10 emerging AIA members to participate in a 6 month journey to improve their community outreach and public relations skills, how Strengthening the AIA New York's culture of advocacy by providing opportunities to interface with municipal agencies, community development organizations and local stakeholders. The founder of Equity Collab, Kavitha partners with organizations how To research, identify, and implement strategies that foster a more equitable and diverse workplace. She has a wide range of experience both as an architect and advocate for equity in the profession. Tabitha currently works at the AIA New York chapter. Her varied background allows her to view the how practice from different perspectives, including practicing architect, consultant, client, and an advocate working directly with professionals to address the change how they would like to see in the workplace and the profession. As director of leadership and engagement initiatives at AIA New York, how Kavitha oversees programs intended to provide opportunities for members to move beyond their daily work lives to interface with diverse communities, how Engage in the civic realm and connect with students who may not be familiar with architecture as a career.

A In addition, how She liaises with chapter leadership and local officials on advocacy efforts involving issues related to design professionals and the built environment. How This position was created for her after she approached the organization and expressed concern for the lack of equity and representation in the profession.

C How She sought to implement

A programs that went beyond the traditional focus of professional organizations to elevate the social conscious and expand the mission of architects. How She holds a bachelor of science in architecture from the University of Virginia as well as a master of architecture degree from Columbia University. Let's cut to our conversation.

B The 3 of you have all been involved in some of the most interesting leadership development programs for architects and in the country. And that's really why I wanted to have this discussion today because I think that the 3 of you offer so much knowledge about not only how to teach architects' leadership skills, but what those skills are that they need to know, and you've designed interesting approaches on how to deliver that content. So I think the next question to go into is if each of you could explain the model of your program because they're all very diverse and, how you build leaders through those programs.

D The civic leadership program at AIA New York how began, actually was started through our emerging architects committee, which is called ENYA, Emerging New York Architects. It was an idea that I think was in really inspired and started right after the 2016 election and, Things that happened as a result of that and wanting to some of the members of the committee and leadership of that committee really wanting to have a program that, allowed architects to pursue advocacy and political action, elected office potentially or community engagement in a much deeper way than they thought was available. So actually, the model we looked at Christopher Kelly program, Back then, I believe they they used it as one of the models that they started it from. But it turned out to be this incredible journey where how They accepted 10, applicants from a pretty intense application process to become, the Twenty, the 1st class, and they have a 6 month, sort of fellowship program where we take them through, how Pair them up for development sessions. So there's 5 different development sessions monthly that each pair puts on, and then in the end, there's 2 public programs That they do in groups of 5. So, they explore all sorts of issues pertinent to architecture, the built environment, but also to society at large. You know? Anywhere from sustain sustainability, affordable housing, how things. Recently, we had a program, focused on justice, and it was Very broadly spoken about with different perspectives.

D And I I think that the members each how year. Get to get get to really explore that. It's very self led. So after that 1st year, no one was quite sure how to run it, and that's when I came in. And, we decided that the leaders from the 1st year should lead the next year. So 5 of them became the advisers who actually really shaped how The next program, gave feedback, told them what told us what they thought could be better, and we went with it. So, really, with a little bit of a guiding hand, It's a very, very much self led program. It is free for members, which we think is really important.

D So it's it's open to how To everyone who's an AI member and, you know, we try to get a diverse group of of applicants and of thoughts end of ideas.

E So I am speaking to the Leadership Institute, which is now known as Forefront today. And, it's a bit of a different model than I think the other programs we'll hear about, and it is run through AIA National. It was started, in 2015, and I have to say that Janine was, instrumental in kicking that off and creating the program. And so I am honored to have taken it over from her leadership And, watched it grow into the program that it it is and that we're hoping it will be again today, or this year. But, it's a little bit different in that it's a one day learning experience. And so it's actually a conference, that the AIA puts on how for its members, and it's open to nonmembers as well. The model that was originally created was that it was how broadcast from 1, location, and that was washing that has traditionally been Washington DC how to our partner locations, which are run out of local AIA components across the United States. And the idea is is that it is a one day leadership conference that is affordable and accessible to membership across the United States without having to ask them to travel to one location, for leadership training and development.

E And so it's been in a variety of how Cities. I'm sure some of you listening out there have heard of it or seen it or even participated in it at your local component because it's hit quite a few cities over the years. So the Leadership Institute as it was nationally or formally known is how Really focused on bringing fundamental skills to leaders or to emerging professionals and architects regardless of their career level. And over the past year, we have surveyed, the AIA membership to understand what are they really seeking out in how Leadership training. What are some of the gaps that don't exist in other programs, and how can we best serve the membership And give them the skills that they're needing to run the best practices possible, to advocate in their communities as citizen architects in the best way possible, how And really to to promote and advance the profession as a place for leaders in the best way possible. And so We have revamped it a little bit this year and not only on our own accord, but also the world sort of did that for us when it hit us with, a global pandemic. And I'd say the advantage we have is that it was created as a digital our conference back in 2015 and intentionally. And so we've been testing and using interactive technological tools to increase interaction and promote engagement through virtual platforms since its inception.

E Action. And so we really leaned on that back in February when we made the decision to go to an all virtual conference event, Recognizing we've already become really adept at using the tools. And so it is no longer centered in one location. We actually increased our virtual participation in 2018 immensely, and so we saw the opportunity to how broadcast this program even further beyond 5 locations. And so it will be all virtual this year. The date is October 30th. And we are really aiming to engage, empower, and inspire architects at all levels of their career to become leaders that we so need right now.

C That's great to hear. The Leadership Institute has continued virtually, how That's great to hear about Forefront, Corey. So the Christopher Kelly leadership development program started in how Washington DC is part of the the AIA chapter here, in 2013. And it it actually started later than a number of other how Leadership development programs that started really as part of the last recession. AIA had made a big push in 2008, how 2009 to ask their local components, their local chapters to, provide leadership opportunities for emerging architects and and and how Young professionals. And a number of programs got off the ground and had done a nice start at that, specifically, the ELA program out of AI Virginia, Cincinnati, Visions, Kansas City Pillars has been recognized quite a bit, the Dallas Leadership Program. And so how What what we did in DC, Sean Stadler and I founded this program together. And, Kavitha, similar to your transition planning, how Sean and I founded the program.

C We are not very heavily involved anymore from a day to day standpoint, which honestly was one of the first things that we how Sat is like, great. We're gonna start this, but how do we how do we roll off? And it is that next it is that same, you know, that the graduates, the alumni how that follow through the year after, and they have the the energy and the ambition to kinda keep things relevant from year to year. But what we What we did is we kinda took the cream of the crop from each of those 4 programs that I've mentioned and made it specific to DC. What's gonna work for DC? And ultimately, we developed the a curriculum and, it you know, so it's a year long program and it consists of 9 individual half day sessions for how emerging professionals. And it it is selective. We, you know, we do want strong applicants to take part in it because it is really self led. How It's very much what you put in the program is what you're gonna get out of it. And we have the we have the scholars pair up, and They actually develop and present a a half day session.

C So they meet every they meet they tend to meet the 1st Friday of every month how And the 2 scholars will kinda lead that that session. So they find sponsorship for it. They find the speakers. They find the venue. They take care of the catering. And we're there as a big safety net, as a advisory committee to help them through all of that, make sure the learning objectives are correct and make sure that the content's right. How And that, and ultimately, it comes a little competitive where they can try and kind of outdo one another from 1 1 month to the next. And the curriculum itself is focused on things that, like firm management and entrepreneurship, business development, the art of negotiation, the future of the practice, how Things that we as leaders need to be we need more conversation about.

C And especially as young architects, we just don't get that in the day to day how in the in the practice. So this is an opportunity to it's not a deep dive. It's just it it's just a kind of even coverage and firm how Institute and community leadership. So it's kind of a I'd say it's like a two zero one. It's not a one zero one class. It's like a two zero one class, but certainly not a five zero one.

B I wanna acknowledge that each of your programs have gone through multiple years and growth, and that's what makes it so compelling to me. I mean, you've each had success in different ways. And, of course, Corey, we go a long way back, and I have to say that Ryan knows this. From the 1st Leadership Institute to where the program is now, it's a lot different and it's grown quite a bit. So, I wanted to give you guys a chance to maybe highlight some of the growth that you've seen, just very briefly.

E Yeah. I think I'm happy to jump in there because, as you just touched on the Leadership Institute and now Forefront has how gone recently through a major change, but I think over its life, I was first involved in helping with some of the marketing and creating, helping Phoenix with their Leadership Institute in the 1st year in 2015. And The fascinating part about the Leadership Institute, but also these other programs that Ryan and Kavitha have talked about today, how Is you can see the evolution of leadership training within the leadership development program. Right? We are inherently creating more how and better leaders by giving our professionals an opportunity and a place to test, practice, how engage in collaboration whether it's in their local community or across the nation. And I think it's evident in the maturity of these programs and the longevity that they've shown over time. And I think that, like, In and of itself, that's remarkable because not only are we able to serve, in a variety of capacity, you know, obviously, we reach We've reached up to 600 people in attendance in 1 year. So even just the growth of numbers of attendees, But even the number of people from Ryan and Janine who have had a hand in the Leadership Institute and now forefront, I think, is evidence Enough that this is producing great outcomes for our profession and equipping AIA member how Attendees from the early career to fellowship with the right skill set that they need to be better leaders in their practice and in their communities. And so, you know, you can look at the numbers.

E You can look at the the profitability. But I think pure growth in leadership programs across the country because of how These 3 as examples and, you know, inspiring people to go out and build their own leadership program is proof enough of how how much impact how these programs have.

B And I wanna go to Ryan next because I think his example is really compelling because It started in an AI component and then jumped to another one. There I think Ryan, you'll have to tell the story, but I think how is it true they came to you and they were asking you about how to adapt it to their chapter?

C Yeah. So our how The the growth of the Christopher Kelly leadership development program is is it's fun. I I I don't need I don't know if it's unique even, but it's it's fun. So Part of it is because DC is such a transient city. Like, nobody wants to live in DC for very long. So, unfortunately, I'm here. I'm a lifer now. How You make it over 5 years and and you become like a lifer as that you know, so, like, anybody that's, like, been here for that long, They feel that much more connected to the place.

C So many people leave. They go back to home. They go they follow where their spouses yeah. Corey. Right? I mean, Vaneen. How 3 3 of the people here, you know, lived in lived in DC for a period of time. But so one of our alumni from the 2nd class moved to Denver, And she said, the AIA program the AIA chapter here doesn't have a leadership development program. And I think the Christopher Kelly leadership development program would be great in Denver.

C And we said, okay, great. Let's, you know, open our folder and kind of share what we have with you. But it's, like, literally, like, off my hard drive. And, you know, we're just we're helping her have those conversations with the the folks in AIA locally. So the first step was an alumni. Then Detroit reached out. Well, it happens to be that, you know, I took a new job with Quinn Evans. We have an office at in Detroit.

C How They hear about the program. They say, we want that as well. So it's not an alumni, but it's a connection. And then Indiana was just like, We heard about the program. We wanted. Albuquerque was we heard about the program. We wanted. Miami was we heard about the program.

C We wanted. Houston's an alumni. Atlanta's an alumni. So we now have 8 programs throughout the country. And it's it's literally like 1, 2 in in one case, it was 3 started in the same year. That was kind of a lot to handle. But it's like 1 or 2 every year just continue to kind of organically, develop. And we you know, so long as you keep the name and the branding, it helps.

C I mean, it helps everybody. And the curriculum being that it it is this kind of two zero one level. It's firm leadership. It's institute leadership, and it's civic leadership. How Then you can make that work for how it needs to in your regional chapter. You know, so if there's more social issues, there's more environmental how shoes that you wanna get into from a leadership standpoint. There's flexibility in the curriculum to make that happen.

B Kavitha, what's really cool about what you're doing is it's a locally, and it's, like, very grassroots to the city, which is not a tiny city at that. It's, you know, one of the world's leading cities. So you guys have taken a really, how you approach to make it very customized to your local community. And there's a huge emphasis on civic engagement, which I love about your program. So tell us more about that growth.

D So I think, we haven't had the kind of regional growth or, you know, monumental growth in numbers as the other programs how that Ryan and Corey are working on. I think, you know, when a lot of people don't leave New York, they come here and they just stay forever. Maybe that's our how I have to get them, you know, just chase them away or something to different cities. But part of it is because these issues just how feel so relevant every single minute here. Well, as I think they would in most in many places. So, ideally, we would love to have how This program replicated elsewhere, and we'd be happy to help other chapters start it. Really do think it's a model that could work anywhere. It's It's really about, and I know we'll get into this more later, but it's about having the firms where these or or some people work for city agencies, like, wherever they work, having that support to lend to the folks doing the program because ours is a huge time commitment.

D It's it's kind of like going to night school or something like that. It's really a lot of time. We usually tell them it's a certain amount of time, and then we add things on just to shake it up a bit. Team building sessions and work shops and things that we just find interesting. So we're like, alright, everybody. You know, next Saturday, we're gonna try to do this. And and we just do it because everyone is how Usually quite interested in it. It's a pandemic that helps.

D So they're not going anywhere anytime soon, so we've got their attention. But we would love to we would love to grow it in ways that we can replicate it, in other chapters.

A It's been really great to hear about all of your growth stories, but it's also equally interesting to hear how they all came into conception. Right? They were all started how by who we identify as emerging professionals. So those that are on the younger side of the spectrum relative to the industry right now. My question for all of you is a bit twofold. I know you talked a little bit about why you think it is the emerging professionals how starting up these programs. But why is leadership development so important for the next generation? And the follow-up would be, how Why are they not getting that in their firms right now?

D I mean, I can jump in on that one. I I think, as I mentioned, it was started by the emerging New York architects committee, but it soon became taken on as a chapter program. And we have expanded our Language a little bit to allow for people that are sort of mid career to be part of it as well. We don't think just the emerging professionals. But if you think about the career of an architect in many cases. You are doing these incredible things when you're in school. I think these projects that are just how Saving the world or coming up with a plan for something that is a project you probably likely never gonna work on, a cultural project of some kind that maybe you'll never get. So you go into the office, and you have all these big ideas, and suddenly you're relegated to drawing details of of, you know, elevations of bathrooms or something like that.

D I'm not saying that the folks in our program are necessarily doing that, but you do see that In many firms, the structure is such that they don't get the opportunities to explore these ideas that they're just bursting to explore. So I think that's part of it. I think there's definitely a new thought process in terms of what is leadership and what is the definition of an architect, Which is really different from when I went to architecture school many years ago when everyone scoffed at anyone who is not a traditional architect and didn't focus how Solely on design. And I always kind of fought that model and thought, you know, we can be anything we want. This education is incredible. Right? You know, this background how lends itself to so many things. So I think, I think that's part of it, and I think that's why I think there's an appetite in the the younger emerging professionals for something like this, and I would I think that's the same with with Ryan and Corey's programs as well.

E I thought you mentioned so many things that I was going to touch on. So, very important, but I there's a few others that I would love to hit on and add to that is primarily having my experience and having worked with, emerging professionals throughout my volunteer leadership within the AIA, specifically as the chair of the National Associates Committee. When we would ask or talk with different, component leaders about trying to get emerging professionals involved, what are they looking for? What are they seeking? And it's not necessarily a title or a position or a seat on a board. It's action. They want to Get their hands dirty. Create something. Take those big ideas from school that they feel like is missing from the profession and put it into action and really how Serve, either their peers or learn from one another or their communities. And so I think that's why you see so many of these programs how pop up by emerging professionals.

E They're yearning to create something, and learn too. I think take on the ownership of educating themselves to really become the professional that they feel is the architect they want to be. I can't agree more with the evolution of what the role of the architect is. I think we're we're seeing that rapidly how Change at least in the in my mind and in, you know, the role we can contribute to society. It's becoming, I think, much more of a A conversation about, like, where really should we be? Who should we be listening to? Who should we be collaborating with? And so I think that's a big part of it. And then I think the other piece for me that's really important and why it's so important for next generation leaders is Leadership is not something that is just born with you. Leadership is a learned skill. And I think for too long, we've put it on the back burner of our businesses, of our firms, of, how Anything that we set out to do as architects, and it is something that can be learned.

E There's research. There are classes. There is how Meaning, you can always be a better leader. And if I've learned anything, it's that you have to want to be a better leader as well. And our you know, as our how Our practice becomes more complex, as our projects become more complex, as our societal issues become more complex. We need those skills, and we need the training to be the fast leaders that how can be because it's not just gonna happen or come to us.

C Yeah. All all very good points, Corey. Right on. And so I I would certainly echo those. But The the only thing I might add is I feel that our generation and certainly the next generation, there's this eagerness to want to have action now. And The profession for way too long has been you're a leader if you're an old white male. And if you are the strongest and loudest voice in the room, then you are the leader. And that's just not the way it is anymore.

C It has changed. It's gonna continue to change. And as we understand our own personalities and how we're supposed to be working with one another in our own demographic as well as up and down that generational ladder and across different how genders and races and different biases that we may have. Like, that is changing literally as we speak. Right? And how It started a decade ago when we had our last recession when the AIA realized like, oh, wow. We have this generation that we're gonna lose because of this recession, And we need to we need to implement these leadership development training efforts, and it can be learned. And we have the resources to provide them. And it's only it's only become more of a snowball effect at the moment because it's not so much like, oh, let me sit back and, you know, follow my steps up the ladder, whether it's the how Corporate ladder or the AIA ladder.

C It's like, no. I'm just gonna start the program

B myself. I love this conversation so much, like, underscore so much. I I just I you guys are touching on so many great points that are important. I wanted to open up the conversation to allow you guys to talk about and frame for our listeners, what are the leadership skills that architects how are most typically missing or what you see missing in an architectural studio environment. Can you Set those up for us so that we understand what we're talking about.

C I'll jump in 1st here. Just I mean, with with with my my background in now, I I I can't remember how many schools I've been to now, but it's been 13 or 14 years that I've been involved with the NAB. So from an accrediting standpoint, for for the accrediting, how board. It's a challenge because everybody wants to add to the curriculum. We need to be taught this more and more and more. We need this and we need that. We need business. We need computer skills.

C We need community workshops. We need leadership. We need all of it. But then we don't wanna have how spend too any more time in school. We don't have to pay for school. Right? So there's, like, there's this constant, like, ebb and flow back and forth. How So I don't know how we solve it, but I will say that the the the lack from a leadership standpoint in architectural education, I think as an immediate graduate, I'm feeling one thing. And then as someone who's 10, 15 years out now, I feel differently about it.

C And I think At this point, it's a better reflection that the lack of leadership is as much about listening and facilitating conversations because so many of my colleagues how are able to do that. And honestly, I think a lot of the the efforts that I've had with AIA has helped supplement that education. But, You know, having the like, you know, doing public speaking. And not just like a public like a theater class, like, legit, like, public speaking in in school. How Like, it it it goes beyond, like, standing in front of your work in a critique. It is, like, theatrical so that you can actually win an interview. Because if you're just standing in front of your work for an interview, you sound dull. And it's only been reinforced even more so now that we're all virtual.

C Right. And it's that much harder to connect with somebody across the table, when you're when it's that you're you're not reading the body language and things of that nature. So, if there was just one thing, I would I would kind of really harp on it. It gets to the communications, public speaking, how to speak with your colleagues, with your consultants, how not to make them feel uncomfortable about certain things even if you're kind of heated about them in a in a particular manner. How and a lot of it comes with time, but I think that a lot of that can also be learned at an earlier stage.

D I think our, I mean, a couple of things I've noticed about, the program is that the people that come into our program are already leaders. Right? They don't may not really recognize it, But just the fact that they take these initiatives to do this in incredibly intense application and to go into depth and how Tell us so much about themselves, and then they come in and they're like, okay. Let me learn how to be a leader. And I was like, okay. You know, I just play along with them because I'm like, you guys are totally leaders. They just don't Sometimes feel like they have the agency to express that or to follow through with the things they're already doing. And I think it was something that, Corey said early on about just continually learning. And I think that's the Height of leadership is always kind of taking in those ideas and trying to figure out respectfully, you know, how do we how Take that and make a a a better collaboration or a, you know, a better project down the road.

D And I think that's that's one of the things that I've seen. So we had that 1st class how through and they were like, well, you know, you made us do all this stuff, and we put on all these programs. We did all this research, and we reached out to all these people, but We didn't really learn how to do any of that, not and we were all like, well, you just did all of it. But then we realized they wanted some more kind of how Hard skill, soft skill training. You know? So we added a little bit more of that that formal training aspect to it Just for the sake of comfort and because we saw, like, sometimes there was issues with with people expressing their ideas or trying to, You know, be more dynamic in the the pair or the group that they were working with. So things like that, I think you're right. You can completely learn those And you continue to learn them. And, I think a lot of the people in our program too, I talk a lot about introverts and extroverts, and, you know, I'm such an introvert.

D And but when I'm passionate how about something, I can't stop talking about it. Right? So I think all of them are kind of, in that way, the same, that when you have Knowledge or interest or passion about something, you can go to that umpteenth degree and do all the research and find the time to do it even when you have no time.

E Yeah. As I mentioned, I think it was 2 summers ago, the AIA issued a survey to its membership how and asked what skills they felt that they were lacking in leadership. And, conflict resolution, negotiation, how Succession planning, all rose to the top in in large percentages. And I don't have the the data in front of me, But it was eye opening to say, like, why isn't this why isn't this happening? Or where architects supposed to go? And, you know, we really questioned as the center for leadership within the AIA, like, shouldn't we be trying to offer that? And so how We looked at what those topics were and started to think about how we might be able to fill some of those gaps in Forefront. And, you know, I think there's a multitude of resources out there for getting those tangible skills in some of these, more business centered topics such as conflict resolution and negotiation. But I think that, overall, we're seeing that, You know, leadership is all of these things, and it's really important that an architect, has the skill set to do that. The only negotiation you're gonna do is not just your job. Right? You have to negotiate contracts.

E You have to negotiate for your value. And if we can't do that well, then, You know, we lose relevance, I think, as a profession. So it's important that we all are equipped with that skill. And as Ryan mentioned, which I think is such a great great point. Our perception of what a leader is is changing. And so, You know, I think there's I'm seeing a need and a desire for learning more about empathy and emotional intelligence how And how, you know, there is no singular vision and of what a leader is. You can be introverted and be a great leader. You can be extroverted and be a great leader.

E There is no definition or boundaries to what that is. You just have to have the passion and the desire. And so I think that, how What we're trying to do at Forefront is really tell these stories of leadership, of personal leadership, and say, hey. You can go do this how to you don't have to be a certain type of person or have all of these experiences or, you know, Whatever it may be, our goal is really to break down the barriers and have people walk away from that day and be like, oh my gosh. I can go do this thing that really has an impact regardless of how big or small you might feel it is. It's truly making a difference. And so I think, you know, opening up the definition. And I I love what your program is doing for the civic leadership in New York, Have a thought.

E And it's just like I I think we need more of that. I would love to see that ex I'm like, how can I expand that in Chicago? Because we how Definitely, like, it's such an important skill set, I think, for architects to be equipped with if our communities are our clients.

A This conversation is getting me really excited, and I do see a trend of knowing and learning soft skills becoming increasingly important, not only in architecture firms, But in the way all industries are are are growing and and evolving, especially in light of COVID, I wanted to riff a little bit how Kathy thought off of what you said about agency, and Ryan also allude to a conversation we had a long time ago. First of all, how If anyone is really interested in getting involved in these type of programs, getting involved in any community or organization Is really a great way to begin to build those soft skills. And I say that because, Ryan, you and I had a previous conversation about How your firm saw the value of being engaged in the AIA, and the out how come of leading those committees have ultimately really helped you develop some of those skills that have also played out in the development of the Christopher how leadership program. It's also been interesting to hear about the evolution of these programs. And, Ryan, you mentioned this a little bit as the caveat inquiry. But in light of COVID and our ability to get out into our cities right now, what are the tweaks You are making now to add to the programs and make it more robust, or what are you seeing going away because of it?

D For us, one of the unfortunate things is we haven't all been able to meet in person. We haven't met some of the new leaders yet physically. So That's it's really odd, but we feel like we know each other so well even on the digital platform. We pivoted. We were in the process of having info sessions when COVID hit. Right? So and we are about to select the class. We were just how Doing a call for applications, and we have to decide really quickly. Are we gonna do this program or not? And our, advisers who had signed on are like, absolutely.

D You know, we can do this. And I think what's nice is we've been able you know, we've definitely had, the downside of it, but on the up on the upside, we've been able to open it up to more people and speakers from across the country, potentially, you know, around the world if the time if the time zones work out. So we've been able to do that. We've been looking at ways to expand the program in that way with people who can be part of the public, you know, attend the public events and things. We don't have those physical limitations of we typically would meet in one of the rooms at the Center For Architecture in New York City, And we were physically limited to x number of people in the room for the development sessions. And now we can actually open up our development sessions to not just this year's class, but all of the alumni, as well, which is really nice. So they can kind of see what we're doing and and hear the the latest Ideas and trends and topics that this class wants to talk about, and they were so greatly influenced by COVID hitting just as they were writing their applications And all the inequities that came to the surface as as a result of that. So I think, you know, in that way, it's it's expanded kind of our our thinking about it.

D And I do think Even if everything goes back to what was normal before this, we may, keep this not fully virtual format, but add an element of that how Intuit so that we can we can have that broader audience.

C Yeah. And so on on the Christopher Kelly leadership development front, So this season, it's 8th year now, I think, and COVID really kinda threw everything for a bit of a spin. How the 8 programs that we have throughout the country, we try and meet quarterly as just to kinda share ideas and make sure that, you know, best practices are happening and, but this year in particular, it's it's been almost more of a strategy effort to say, like and everything's been on the school year calendar. So, like, start how September end in May, take the summers off, essentially. And so the same issues that all the schools had in the spring we had. It was like, alright. Well, I guess we're all virtual now how And maybe we're not having a closing reception. We'll just postpone it.

C And then it became, well, how are we preparing for 2021 for the next class? And it literally varied by city and by region based on any given week on what their COVID, you know, rates were and if there was a hot city or a cold city. And then, you know, a month later, it changed. And so right now, I know that 1 of the programs has started. But when we last spoke, like, 4 of them were supposed to start how in September or October. And I think most of it are gonna start a few months late, you know, kind of beginning of 2021. It's definitely a hybrid, how system, for for this next year, which I think is good because I think, you know, as technology is is here and it's no longer this it's not like a dial up how connection we're dealing. We still have technical issues that we deal with. Right? But, like, from a speaker standpoint, like, being virtual allows you to tap into so many more resources how at a much lower cost.

C I mean, you might have to pay someone for an honorarium, but you don't have to pay for flight and hotel. And so it's it's that much easier how to have really good really good, engaging speakers. We've always been questioned with the number of 16. You know, why only how And the 16 works out well for the 8 sessions and the pairing. It also works really well from a group dynamic standpoint. You can share a lot with those 16 individuals how that you feel comfortable. And, I mean, at the at the end of the year, everybody's like, this is like, you guys are my family. And they they continue on.

C They meet up how After, you know you know, they have, like, anniversaries, essentially, and the kids start coming and so on and so forth. And once you broaden that out and you start to make it 25 or you start to make it 32 or 60 or a100, the group dynamics become much more different. And one of the things that every alumni how We'll mention about the Christopher Kelly leadership development program is that when you're in it, it's so engaging that, like, the leadership skills that you learn are hands on how And you it's really hard to mimic. And that's why I think a number of the programs have been struggling. I'm like, well, how can we mimic this in person environment virtually. You know, the breakout rooms help, but they're not quite the same. So ultimately, I think we will probably have a hybrid system, moving forward, this year is is gonna be, you know, a a a bit more, probably virtual than than in person, how to continue sharing those leadership skills and and knowledge, but it's all good for the long run.

E So our program is a one day event, and it has not happened yet. So I actually have no idea how this is going to impact it. I'm hoping that it is positive because we were already set up to run-in a virtual environment, and I'm hoping that We'll see an increase in attendees because of that. So it's hard to say right now. But if I had to how Guess and hope what it looks like down the road. I would hope that we would be able to, produce more leadership training from the AIA throughout the year possibly using these techniques and these models knowing that the world is just more comfortable how on, a virtual environment now than ever before. So I hope that maybe there can be some more continuous training that occurs, in the future.

B So I guess one one closing idea I really want us to be able to convey to how Firm owners and firm leaders, the importance of, it's not just about, leadership skills for themselves as as management of the company, but it's also about overall leadership for the entire organization and and all of the people that are trying to how to support the firm. So I'm wondering, what role do you think that architecture firms have in training leadership skills and practice, and, also, how can firms help to advance those conversations.

D I guess, I I can take this one, and I'm gonna go into it in a very personal way because I think just as I was recognizing leadership skills in myself in, in the profession. At the same time that I, you know, had my daughter, and I was trying to how Work and take care of her and take her to day care and run around. And my boss at the time was like, you know, go to the AIA. Make sure you join these chapters. Take leadership positions. Like, how in the world am I gonna have time for that and do my job? Because I think the expectation then was just how You do this on your time. We know that the there's value to the firm, but somehow you have to make it work. And that's something I wanna put out there as, how You know, someone who's a woman, a person of color, somebody who's raised a child in this profession, it is very difficult to pull off all of those things.

D And so, I will say that at some point, I actually, was not a member. When I went off to work on my own. I actually decided that AI membership, you know, wasn't doing anything for me. I'm gonna leave. And, that's the honest truth. And when I went back, it was because I realized There were opportunities there that I didn't see in the past, and there were, you know, ways that I could get engaged and change the whole process. So on the firm side, I just think that For leadership to recognize that not everyone's in the same position and doesn't have the same amount of time and to value the time they spend, We actually have a letter that we have from leadership sign on behalf of all our applicants that they okay Hey. The time they're gonna be that they recognize that this is gonna be a big time commitment.

D It's gonna eat into a bunch of Friday afternoons And evenings, times that they won't be able to spend, you know, on on potential deadlines and things, and that there's a commitment there. So we recognize that after the 1st year that, you know, we had to do that because we want them to also recognize that how At the end of this program, you know, these people have just created this amazing network, for themselves of not just their classmates housemates and their advisers, but all of the speakers they reached out to, all of the chapter leadership, all of these other people that they wouldn't have had otherwise, so that value is, you know, It's huge to the firm, so I think that recognition is really important.

E I couldn't agree more with that. And I have a a personal perspective and I think a professional perspective for the role of architecture firms in how Training and recognizing leadership skills. For me, personally, the trajectory of my career changed when I got involved in AIA leadership as a volunteer. And I say that because the hole that I felt in practice was filled how by an organization that allowed me to stretch and hone the skills that Truly made me the best architect that I could be. And it wasn't drawing. It wasn't how Traditional design, it was facilitation and collaboration and bringing groups of people with very diverse thoughts and backgrounds together and creating consensus. And that's a really important skill set for how Organizations and firms to employ because it helps create consensus on projects when you have a lot of diverse client perspectives in a room. And so without my leadership involvement and committee work and the support of my firms, I may not have realized the path that I'm currently on as an architect.

E And that's about fulfillment. Right? It's about how Making sure that we are bringing the best of our employees to our office every single day and allowing them to come to work as a whole person. How And so I think from a personal perspective, it's obviously very important that architecture firms facilitate that and allow their employees to grow in ways that are how both personally but also professionally and for the business. With that said, firms don't have to take that on themselves. How They can look to their AIA chapters at a local level, at a national level. They can look to how Chambers of commerce. They can look to leadership development programs within their own cities. I know Denver has a really fabulous downtown Denver partnership leadership program that is really great in training leaders from all sectors, not just architecture, that I think is really beneficial for architecture how Professionals to be interacting with and building relationships with.

E So while we often see really formal training programs from larger firms because they have the resources how To do that, I think it's imperative that sizes focus on equipping their team members to get the leadership training that is going to make them the best employees possible. And the reason that's important is because We are seeing automation in our profession at a rapid pace. We don't need people doing some of the drafting tasks how that used to be the majority of their day. What we are best at is our problem solving, our critical thinking. That's what our architectural schools teach us. That's what we are needed to do in our day to day jobs. And we need to, I think, in a way, free people up how to have the skill set to allow them to use that critical thinking and the design thinking that is involved in how Creating the best solutions possible because no firm is going to work win work on how many people have drafted the a certain amount of hours. Right? We're now winning work because you can think outside the box.

E You can come up with solutions that other people haven't come up with, And you need leadership in order to do that. And you need it at every level because the more work you win, the more people that are gonna have their hands on it. And so I think that how Making sure everybody has access to that training really sets you up for success both on your individual project teams, but in the long term, as you start to move people through your pipeline.

C So I think the key role that architecture firms have is that those in leadership positions need to be able to let go of the brains. They need to be able to hand them down to the next generation and and pull you know, pull them up, like, help support them. Don't just feel like, alright. It's all yours, how But give them pointers. Give them lessons learned. Give them best practices to help them through that process. And not everybody in a leadership position has the personality for that. At least the folks that I've come across, they don't have the personality for that.

C They don't have the the force the the the foresight to to share that information. How They hold it back a little bit more. So I think as a profession, we've failed pretty well over the years because it's been this kind of top down approach. And I think as generations are are coming about here, you're seeing more of a hand down approach to help support that. And and similarly, you know, how How how does it help advance these conversations? Back to what Evelyn was mentioning a little bit previously, my involvement with the AIA, I've always been questioned, what do you get out of how Like, how why do you put so much time into it? And what's the value of it? Especially from, like, small firm owners that are like, that's 40 hours, how You know, that's 20 hours this week. It's 8 hours, you know, for the day. And I need I need to be billing that time to the clients. Like, it it's a big hit on our, you know, end end of the month Invoicing, and you're off at another committee meeting or something of that nature.

C And I always had a challenge answering that until this year. How And this year, I I came into a a more appropriate role in my office. I'm not on Revit. I don't do the drawings. I QC them. How I can put a set together like nobody else, but my main position in my office now is working with the client relations and Facilitating conversations within multiple stakeholders. And when you look just conceptually at this, it's like, can you how can you bring consensus how to a group of individuals of 25 of 32 different individuals, 50 different individuals, all in the same room, that are coming from totally different perspectives, and I'm like, how this all the time with AIA. Right? Like, we all have.

C We've had to. And they're different personalities or different backgrounds or different expertise that they're coming to the table with. And now you put it into a okay. Now we're building a client perspective. It's the maintenance how person, operations, the designer, the engineer, the the design review board, all of these different stakeholders how that are all involved the contractor, that are all involved in the project. They're all in the room, and they're all there for their one thing. I gotta make sure I I make my point. How I'm able to help facilitate that conversation where everybody everybody leads.

C It's it's negotiation as well, Corey. Right? Like, it's negotiating that those conversations. How And, we're able to lead. Everybody feels like they won. So of course, my office is like, you're not doing Revit anymore. Like, you're this is your role. And so much of that has come through my involvement with my volunteer effort through AIA, which I'm incredibly thankful for. So If there's anything that firms can do, it would be actually to, like, support that effort.

C Right? Send your, staff to these leadership development programs. How Give them the opportunity to learn more, to spread their wings, to get in front of your 16 friends now, your your 16 family members, And, like, totally blow the presentation. That's it's better to blow it there than it is in front of the in in front of your future client when you're interviewing. So those are the opportunities, I think, that how Exists that firm owners and firm leaders have the opportunity to to further support.

B You mentioned at the top of the episode that you how to different perspective about leadership from when you were first entering the profession to where you are now. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what that means?

C How Sure. So when I first entered the profession, I think like most, you know, bright eyed folks, I looked at what leadership was. I I looked at it as, how You know, the old white guy at the at the top of the the corporate ladder. Like, that was what I thought leadership was until I started to understand that it was so much more than that. And I think until I had numerous work experiences where essentially the boss and I've been in the line, how It's not that we disagree, but it's just like there's other ways to do that. And I learned about the importance of understanding your own personality so that you can understand other people's personalities, You know, your own strengths so that you can you can work with your colleagues to have empathy for other people. Like, there's a lot of things going especially now, like, just this week. Right? But, like, There's so many things going on in the world that it's not always about the project.

C It's not always about the work at hand or the conversation at hand. And One of my colleagues had said when I was leaving, one of my previous officers said, you know, one of the things I I'm gonna miss most about you is that you honestly always ask me how my day was in the morning. Like, we had, like, a 32nd conversation, and that meant so much to her. And it wasn't like I tried to do it. It was just something that, like, I wanted to be able to have that connection with that colleague. We weren't working directly on projects with each other, and it was something that she she knew she was gonna miss, how not having that moving forward. So out of school, I didn't realize that. But as I moved on in the profession, I realized that this is really what leadership is how is more about.

B After listening to this conversation and from the, you know, your knowledge to now, what are your closing thoughts that you could leave with our audience on this topic.

E If I could sum this up, when I left school and came into the profession, I saw the definition of a leader being a singular designer who held all of the ideas. And I have now learned that the power is in the collective. And to give each person the agency to collaborate And come up with a solution so that we all contribute, is now my new definition of leadership. It's not about what I come up with individually. How It's about how we collectively, as a firm, as a community, as a profession, can come up with creative solutions that truly Try to try and accomplish, solving some of our biggest issues.

D Yeah. I think, for me, it was Seeing that kind of traditional model of leadership, but never really quite jiving with it in school or in the workplace. I think I had experiences at school where I'd see in studio people just kind of hoarding over their designs and being super competitive and all this stuff. And I was always that person that was labeled as, like, really nice. Like, I don't know why, like, that was bad. But I was just like, why don't we just, like, kind of share some ideas and, you know, collaborate on something, and maybe we can do something better. And, you know, these things were so strange, I think, to say in some of these environments that they were they were taken as, like, recognized as weakness, I think, in some ways. And now I'm so thrilled that they're seen as a different type of leadership, how A leadership that actually allows people to grow, that actually encourages them to grow.

D And I think that's that's all leadership is. It's just like recognizing That everyone has that power, that agency, and that, you know, knowledge of their own and, you know, letting them how with it and fail. And that was an important thing that I think Brian mentioned before, and that we don't really I think the first time I was allowed how to do a lot of things in architecture in my, workplace and take chances. I was terrified. I was like, what do you mean? You want me to run this project? Like, what? You know? And, so I did it, and I made mistakes, and I was terrified. And I just, like, owned up to my mistakes. And then I had somebody in charge who was just like, okay. Let's deal with it.

D And I was like, wow. It's mind blowing. You know? How The capability of being allowed to fail and learn, to me, was incredible, and I think it's not valued enough. Because how When you fail at something, you never forget it. Right? That's something that's, like, ingrained in you. I'm never gonna make that mistake again. I'm gonna really, like, how Triple check that next time. Whereas when someone's just telling you, oh, yeah, do it like this, you don't really get it, you know.

D So That was something that I I I think I've learned over the years and I really valued was given, being given the chance to fail and also being given the opportunity to own up to it and and not be, like, you know, punished for it. Just said, okay. Just let's move on.

C So closing thoughts how To leave with the audience members, leadership can be learned. Don't feel like you need to be born into it. You don't need to be a type a, You know, out outgoing person, you can learn leadership skills. My biggest piece of advice the past few years has always been find your your passion. How If you're passionate about something, if you wake up on a Saturday morning or Sunday morning and you're like, this is what I wanna be doing, then that's your passion. It's not, this is what I have to do to pay the pay to pay the bills Monday through Friday. But what you find yourself doing in the in the late hours of, of the evening, how Find that passion and don't let it go, like, follow it. Because the more that you put into it, it becomes it becomes a snowball effect.

C Right? It it becomes more than what you how You had imagined. You know, my passion and leadership started with this program locally and it has grown exponentially. You know, I can't even do the calculus on it now with how many how Scholars are in and alumni and speakers and AIA continuing education credits. It's great. It's exponential. How And I didn't have that foresight when I started the program, but I'm so fortunate that that that that's what it's become.

A So one of the biggest things I how like to mention is that all 3 of these programs are AIA programs. And, frankly, it's just due the network that Janine and I have established over the years, how But they are not the only programs available out there where people can gain additional leadership skills. There are several other opportunities that were mentioned by the panel themselves. How So you could look to your local community, your chamber of commerce. For example, there's Leadership SF in, San Francisco. How There's a lot of colleges and related certificate or extension programs that they offer right now for leadership development. How And then there's other organizations that you can you may be participating in that might have some leadership training. How And there are consultants like Janine and her work with Apostrophe Consulting where you can bring the the work that she does actually leadership development in house at your own firm.

A So one of the things I didn't realize, or maybe I knew this passively but did not necessarily put 2 and 2 together, Was that all the programs that we interviewed today were started by emerging professionals. And It was mostly out of a need. Right? They couldn't find the programming that they were looking for even within the organization, so within the AIA. So they went out and built them.

B To your point, Evelyn, that demonstrates to me that there really is a need in the industry. If emerging leaders are stepping forward and creating programs, They're saying this is really important, and they're willing to go create it for themselves because they can't find it. How But truthfully, it's not just coming from the EPs. There's also, a mid level to senior level group of leaders who also want leadership development. And for example, the Small Firm Exchange, which is another committee of the AIA, was very vocal in the last few years about wanting more leadership programs, and that resulted in one of their programs called the Leadership Academy, which is a long form leadership program that is currently in its 1st year this year. And then in parallel to that, they did a ton the small firm did a ton of research work and found that there were all these leadership programs all over the country affiliated with AIA. To the point of our guess, I just wanna say that leadership development is not a onetime thing. It's something that individuals develop over their life.

B And how The most important part is that it's not about other people. It's really about learning more about yourself and practicing the skills that you may be struggling with how or week on to get better at leading others. And as Ryan mentioned, he has had different viewpoints of what leadership means to him over the duration of his career, so when he was from first out of school to where he is today as a leader of a firm, and that's true for everyone. Everyone is continuing to develop these skills throughout the span of their career. And that's why everyone needs support from time to time because they reassess their leadership skills at various points of when they need it and how they need it.

A How Yes. I completely agree with that. I think one of the most important takeaways for me is that leadership can be learned. How It's funny because we also we always talk about, like, right, the natural born leaders. And there are definitely people that may how Contain what you feel is the quality of a natural born leader, but that doesn't mean that those skills can't be learned either. And it really is something that falls how into a continual learning process no matter where you are in your career. If you're fresh out of college, if you're mid career, And even if, for instance, you step into the role of a principal as a firm, you're going to take on different or need different skills, different ways of doing things than you have in a past as as a leader. So my path to leadership has really not only been influenced by my mentors in the profession, but Also built upon their encouragement that continually pushes myself to the next level.

A So I've had the pleasure of working how With past presidents and the current presidents of the American Institute of Architecture Students on the national board, that position has also put me as equally close to the presidents of the AIA National Board. And I think both groups have such unique perspective given, given their experiences and what they bring to the table. But I've But but both groups, I've had so much to learn from each of the 2 groups, and they continue to to push My own thought process and how how I want to present myself as a leader going forward. But I think being able to engage with these how on both a personal and professional level have really helped me understand fully what I am capable of, But also where I where I can change, right, and where I lack the knowledge are where I actually need to seek out additional research how and resources for me to better understand their point of view and where they're coming from. And it's also influenced how I change and how I work with my people in my 9 to 5 job and how I'm able how to be be a leader and show up in business as well.

B I think you make some really good points, Evelyn, that I just wanna pick up on. How when you start moving into different leadership roles, like when you finally become the licensed architect and you're leading the team, or when you finally get promoted and when you're now a principal of Affirm. You're going to be introduced to new challenges that require different leadership skills than the prior positions that you've had. So you're gonna learn new things about yourself that you didn't know that were hard, and it's just a process of growing and actually kinda expanding your capability over time. So I think you make a really good point, Evelyn, that it's like this journey to, like, how learn more, and you seek out new ideas about how to lead, and then you adapt it into the work that you're doing. But then you're gonna meet a new challenge, and you have to go to the next one and figure that one out too.

A Yeah. Absolutely. I think

B I first became interested in leadership because of my desire to make a contribution in communities. And from what I've heard about millennial research, that's like a pretty common thing that millennials tend to want to know that they have a purpose and role, and they wanna have meaning in their work, and that's certainly been true for me. So I in my career, how Now as I've grown, it's not even just about that. It's I see it as my responsibility to grow as a leader and to find meaningful ways that I can contribute. And things that have helped me the most have been facing my fears, reaching out to friends and my support network when I'm struggling, and just how Being honest. Like, if something's hard, I try to be really honest with people and say that I'm struggling or I had a hard time with this so that I can always get feedback and and improve. And what's been very important to me is holding on to my own true north as

A a leader to guide me through really tough decisions so that I always am true to who I am as an individual. How So the 3 programs highlighted here are all being built and developed outside the firm structure. How They just happen to be within the AIA structure. But, Janine, in your work for Apostrophe Consulting, you're helping firms internally create how Leadership development training for not only their next generation leaders, but the incoming generation of leaders as well. So where do you see the biggest opportunities for firms to focus their programs in a way that not only develops their staff individually, but can also ultimately help drive their bottom line.

B Sure. And I think because I came out of the AIA and because I came out of the AIS, I always went into firms trying to create these opportunities internally for all the people that I was working with. And So I I noticed that I kept moving from firm to firm and was trying to recreate that experience inside a firm. And so it got me thinking that, really, it's a missed opportunity, especially when firms don't have any professional development supported programs or they're not talking about leadership development more widely. Our speakers mentioned that firms can leverage programs like the ones that they're all involved with to supplement their training for EPs. And I'd say sure, but I'd like to introduce a different point of view on that. I think it's both. Support your EPs with external programs, but also how Take responsibility as the firm to introduce this type of support internally within a design studio environment.

B In the same way that architects learn to teach about building design through process, design development, and critique. I I think similar conversations should be framed around issues of leadership, culture, and team development. You know, our speakers started to talk about those soft skills and the things that they felt like how architects need to learn, and those conversations tend to happen in annual reviews. But I see this as a how Cultural thing that should be part of an ongoing micro learn learning conversation in every team and in every studio environment. Also, each designer needs help with developing their own leadership plan because, of course, we're all different and we're gonna have different strengths. How we're not all gonna fit on the same leadership trajectory, and that attention to what makes a person unique is what leadership development's all about. You have to help people find their voice and the things that make them how a strong leader because it's not all the same quantifiers, if that makes sense. It's not all the like, what makes Evelyn Yu a great leader is is not the same as what makes Ryan McEnroe a great leader.

B So taking a tailored approach, and that takes time, but how Sitting down and really helping individuals road map and then build opportunities that respond to the specific skills that they need to work on. How

A Yeah. I see where you're coming from. I mean, one of the biggest takeaways that I've gotten out of and and granted, I'm at a company that is over two how 1,000 people, which is considered a very large arch architecture firm. But there's this extra emphasis placed on career pathing. Right? And they are very intentional about developing a career path for those who want to go into a management role. How But they're also equally intentional about developing a career path for for individual contributors. So these could be the knowledge how Leaders. This is like, the sustainability knowledge leaders that are, you know, constantly put on every single project in the office because of their unique expertise that they're bringing to the table.

A So the this is something that I don't how See being done at the firm level with as much intention. And then within within that framework, I am able to pick up bits and how to craft my own professional development program and and how and what areas I need to how continue to to grow in order for me to move to the next rung on the ladder, if you were to say, how that the company sees that they need from me to make that next step. It's a very logical progression. How It's not necessarily a a linear one because like you said, different things make different great leaders, but it but it does provide logic. And for people that are all that always Want to understand, you know, what are the small steps I can take to keep moving up rather than what is a big 3 to 5 year goal. I think it's kind of really helpful. So so coming out of all of the work that you've been doing with your firm and kind of how your leadership has evolved over the last Couple of years. What do you see as the biggest opportunities or or the biggest area for development that architects tend to be lacking

C hanging in.

B I think they're right about the idea of the communication piece because I think it's a series of skills within that a larger bucket that most architects need

D to work

B on. There's a culture that we've come to accept in our industry that it's focused on communication around the design project and communicating and presenting work, but it's a lot less how to focus on the communication around people management. And so there's a variation of skills that are important for people to learn in order to manage people. People are not managed like specifications. You have to how really be focused on a two way discussion, empathy, the variables that make someone really unique, in order to help people be successful in this industry. And oftentimes I see architects trying to manage people how like hammering a nail into a wall. And I don't know. I mean, I I feel like that's a pretty aggressive critique, but I do think that there's this factor of sometimes neglect, sometimes too harsh criticism, sometimes a lack of clarity on what is expected and when we don't stop to how to have conversations that are a little bit more intentional and meaningful and slow down and really think about how people are receiving information so that they can fully receive it to execute the work they're doing.

B Then we are ignoring some of the skills that are needed in order to do our best work.

A Right. And I think piggybacking off of what you said, the definition of what a leader is and how what leadership is, right, I feel continues to evolve. I think the current paradigm is very much one that is more inclusive. Right? Like, I sense that the leader that everyone wants to have is someone that brings along the collective, listens to voices at all level on the how spectrum, allows them to contribute and it makes decisions from there. I think in today's day and age too, with how the pandemic with now raging wildfires, with the necessity to talk about equity, not only in the profession, but society and racial justice that good leaders are coming across as the most how empathetic to everything that's going on too. There was a great article recently that came out about how Zoom's CEO Responded to the recent outage on the East Coast when all the schools got on Zoom. And the mainly, the thing he did is he called out his mistake, how And he he reinforced why Zoom is here to support the community and made a commitment to be better going forward. And how While that seems like an easy thing to do, I've definitely seen architecture firms' leaders not communicating at that level, both internally how and externally.

A So so I think there's lessons that can be learned, and I think soft skills are extremely important right now with everything that's what's going on.

B I think you're right, Evelyn. I think the definition of leadership is evolving. And, you know, if you asked our grandparents, like, their generation of what leadership was. I think it's more of, like you said, this assertive style leadership. And that assertive style leadership sometimes is the same leadership style we think of when we think of, like, a master architect or, you know, any star architect kind of mentality. But in today's business world, it's not the trend of how we see most of our well known leaders showing up, the ones that I think are really successful in retaining people to work for them. How they are more empathetic and collaborative and communicative in their leadership style.

A And I think that's a good place to end our Thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice disrupted.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting g a b l media.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, you can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next