Architecture, And: Entrepreneurship

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Today, we are talking with Moe Amaya from Monograph. How I'm really excited. I'm sure a few of our listeners have heard what monograph is. But, really, we are ultimately using monograph as a case study how or about, I should say, people who came out of architecture to create what we call a SaaS our software as a service products for architects, really.

B This is a great example of a team that's identified a problem in the industry and started designing a solution around how to address this problem, and that led to a business, ultimately. So they've used their training in architecture to create a business and become entrepreneurs, and we're excited about that for a variety of reasons. I will say that this is a great episode that if you're able to access your web browser to go check out their website and look at their product features while we go through this content.

A Yeah. So I think we're gonna keep this short so we can get how the interview. I'm gonna jump in with Moe's bio. Moe Amaya is a cofounder of Bonagraph, a San Francisco based software company revolutionizing the future how and how architectural projects are managed. Born in Arizona, Amaya discovered his passion for design and technology at an early age. How Building a bridge between his technology and creative sides, Amaya pursues his career with innovation, organization, and enthusiasm. How While garnering in-depth experience and building tools for start ups and architecture firms and expertise in custom content management systems, how Also known as CMSs, if you ever hear anyone talking about that. Amaya discovered a void for an intuitive cloud based project management application that was tailored to the industry.

A He cofounded Monograph with a mission to help architects and engineers oversee projects in an integrated user friendly an ever evolving interface. Amaya graduated with a bachelor of science and design from Arizona State University And a master's of architecture in computation from MIT, where he gained profound experience as a front end engineer. Upon graduation, Amaya, along with his roommate, Alex Dixon, started a digital agency building websites and interactive tools for architects. Soon after meeting Robert Yoon, the 3 collaborated and formally became partners at DixonMO, the agency from which Monograph half was born.

B Founded in 2019, Monograph offers firm management software designed to help architects and engineers oversee projects, time sheets, and forecast in 1 integrated and simple interface. The software is deeply rooted in the founder's experiences and building tools for architecture firms where they noticed a reoccurring challenge. Architects and project managers were discontent with their existing and nonexistent management software. Seeing this void for a simple cloud based project management application the cofounder set out to create Monograph, the solution for architects, designers and engineers to manage their firm more effectively and transparently. As the creators of a software designed by architects for architects, their company is on a mission to empower and arm the professionals who create our buildings and cities with better tools.

A Let's cut to the interview. Tell us about your current position and what you're up to these days.

C Yeah. For sure. So I'm gonna definitely preface by saying that it's very much still a work in progress. Like, I'm, it was 6 years into my career so far, but it's So, very fuzzy. The edges are kind of, like, all over the place, and so I'm sure you both kind of somewhat aligning with that. And the way actually I visualize it, I think of it This, like, whiteboard that's there's, like, some stuff that was written for a long time, but they got erased and you can still faintly see it. You could, like, there's some things that are brand new. There's some things that are still, like, half erased.

C That's kind of like my how I represent myself in terms of, like, what do you do in your career? But more concretely and less I guess, identify mostly as a designer. Meaning, like, the way I look through, like, the lens of things, like, the kind of critical nature of it, asking questions, sort of like, visually, that's kind of the world that I I like to think of myself in. And more specifically, I'm one of the cofounders of a company called Monograph, which we build software for architects. And so I head up I have a couple of roles there. I sort of head up the engineering team, meaning we make a lot of, like, high level decisions, in terms of, like, what we're building and kind of the tools we're gonna be using. And then also everything on the visual end, anything you see publicly a monograph, like the website and sort of illustration style, the, like, the bold purple crazy colors. That's kind of under my purview too. So I kind of run the I guess at another company, it might be called, like, a creative director role.

C And then lastly, last role I have there is, I'm kind of the head of culture, how Meaning, like, it's a very important thing for us. And even as a tiny company, like, we want someone to sort of own it and kinda operationalize anything that we bring up. And so I kind of, run the gamut of that stuff. So all over this place in terms of what I do.

A Yeah. No. I think it's great how Because you guys are definitely I feel in the start up mode still. You are each wearing multiple hats. It's great that you kind of actually have a position for culture Sure. Given the size of Monograph. How big is Monograph, by the way?

C We're we're currently 8 full time and two how 2 somewhat, like, actually full time contractors. So 10 folks we consistently kinda work with every day. I was

A gonna say, I think you guys have grown quite a bit even since I last talked to Robert. How I have a quick question about the the fuzziness. Was that something you had to come to terms with, or is that just kind of how you've always operated?

C Ahead. So I think coming to terms with the fuzziness is a relatively recent thing, but I think I that that's how I've operated forever. Like, that's that has been my life.

B I really like the imagery of the whiteboard. It's really I mean, gosh, I can

A how and the ghosting on the whiteboard. Yes.

C So much ghosting.

A So we we brought you on for several reasons. I think monograph has a really interesting culture, so we're going to dig into that. But I want listeners to hear a little bit about your personal story arc, and your background and your degree in architecture and kind of where you've gone from that. So why don't you tell us where you did your undergrad, how frequently or infrequently you dip your toe actually into traditional practice, and then what made you, take this new path?

C It's funny, like, in hindsight, it it's like the perfect degree for what we're doing now. I think when you're in it and you're, like, working in it, it's like, oh, it's such a grind. Like, you both know, like, I love architecture school. It was my favorite time in my life, but it's definitely a grind. I didn't actually intend to Do architecture squatting. I actually got to college initially until I was 20. I was just kind of like meandering. I grew up in Arizona.

C Like, I played golf and I just I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no, like, real clear patients. Ultimately, I ended up going to Arizona State. It was a local school. Like, it was kinda like it was fun. Like, I mean, it's known for being a party school, like, whatever. Like, that that was kinda I was a young, you know, 20 year old kid. I was like, oh, I should probably go to college.

C But but honestly, like, I didn't have strong ambitions. I didn't know about architecture. I didn't Sure. I wasn't motivated, like, by all these famous architects. I was just sort of like a hard worker and I like somewhat like art and math. So I was like, okay. This seems like cool. But once you got in once I got into it and you get in the studio, it's like, wow, this is like the I didn't know there was such a gratification with making something.

C Like, from starting with just a brief and a problem to, like, getting it as close as you can basically get it until it's real. Like like, you're how It's almost a building, like, when you're presenting it, like, wow, it feels like it could be that. Right? That, I didn't understand, like, sort of the gratification level for me. But that was kinda like that was the moment where I was okay. This this could mean for me. Like, there's something in here.

B So you went to MIT. I see also, and and it sounds like, you have a really strong background in technology, I'm assuming?

C So no. Yes. I went to MIT. No. I did not have a strong background in technology. In fact, I hated it. How because, like, I the era that we were in was kind of like the Cuaupemoplaue era where everything was sort of blobby and, like, Maya and rhino, like, particularly on the West Coast when you're thinking of a sciatic how School type school. Like, everything was this blob, and I was like, I don't wanna do that.

C Like, I was a was a very nuanced. I loved, like, sort of like, how Like, Herzog kind of like, that's the type of architect I was when I was in school. And I love details. I love Kundig up up in Seattle. That was like the people I looked up to and so, like, thinking of technology through that lens was very hard for me. I was like, no. I hate technology. And so I went to MIT because I think there's a lot of Particularly some practitioners I love, Liam O'Brien, runs a studio called Woerger.

C And he ended up actually being my thesis advisor eventually, but his craft is impeccable. It's incredible. That's actually the reason I went there. So it's it's wild that I ended up along this, like, technology track because that wasn't the intention whatsoever. I think that's it. That's kind of like the lineage of my career has been, like, not intending to do this thing and then ending up there, like, I'm in architecture, but I didn't intend to be here. And so now I'm at I run a software company. I run I'm head of engineering, which doesn't make any sense.

C But

B Yeah. That is kinda interesting. And then so you I'm assuming you went into a traditional practice setting after you got out of school like we all do, trying to figure out if we're gonna become licensed architects or not?

C So, yes, so graduating from ASU in 2 29 2018, that was right in the midst of the housing crisis. How Sixty graduates from MIT, ASU. No one got a job. And so I actually went to Netherlands. I lived in, Rotterdam for 6 months. I worked for a partner of MBRBB, but I was just doing graphic design because that's the only work only job they had. And so I did that for a while. That kind of his work sort of dried up and so I went to how Shanghai and I worked on I taught I was teaching, like, 3 d rendering and sort of three d modeling and stuff.

C And so I was always, like, kind of on these, like, fringe jobs. And I think that was another reason why I was so attracted to MIT. I was like, okay. Like, I can learn from, you know, the craftsmanship, but I could also, like, explore some weird weird stuff. And so I did do a little bit of I probably I probably worked in a total of, like, 8 different firms from range ranging the gamut. I think, like, there's a lot of different I did, like, data centers. I did, You know, high end housing. I've done, like, towers in China.

C So I've done a full range of things. I think going to MIT is like, oh, okay. There's other things that the skill set also, like, provides you. I did yeah. I probably did, like, 2 years of IDP, which I think is called AXP at this point. But so I I was somewhat an architect for a little while.

B You make a good point because you graduated, I'm seeing, in 2009, which is about when I graduated Oh, my god. From undergrad, and I went through the same thing. I came out of school during the recession, and it was like oh, man. It was so brutal trying to get a job in architecture. I always joke that I, like, applied to all these firms trying to get an internship. And, you know, I wrote my resume so many times, and then later, I ended up doing marketing. And I was like so I used to write my resume for myself and then became a professional resume writer for others to do marketing. But, yeah, it was really it was a tough time, and trying to get how into the profession of architecture, was kind of I don't know.

B I just felt like I had a lot of doors shut in my face, to be honest, at that time. So I think for people that were entering the profession around that time, they they've all gone off and had to do different things that were really innovative and have had to get creative to come up with something, that would work for them. I'm wondering if you ever, like, imagine yourself becoming an entrepreneur.

C How Not in any serious way, I don't think. I think a lot of it was just like a survival mode. It wasn't like I wouldn't like, I don't think my mindset was ever entrepreneurial. It's more like I just what do I need to do to get this done? Right? Like, I need to fly to the Netherlands. I've never left the US in my entire life. I grew up in Arizona. I thought I was gonna live there forever. And then this opportunity came up.

C I was like, oh, yeah. Maybe I should get on a plane and use how A little bit of savings I have to try to make it in Rotterdam. Obviously, like huge hugely, like, motivational at that point. But, that was yeah. That wasn't the intention. It was just like a survival mode. That's how I ended up there. But, it was great.

A So it looks like Like, through your profession and and get tell me if I'm wrong, that, like, while you were at MIT, is that when you when did Dickson and Moe how get spun up. And we and when did you guys actually begin to make this transition to to the technology that you thought you would never make that type of transition to you.

C So I would say, like, my web how start probably started, like, in the, like, early Myspace days of just, like, learning web stuff and trying to edit your Myspace page back in the day. And that sort of that how Filtered out or that kind of like filtered up into like starting to build my very first like architecture portfolio on the web. And so this was like 1st year at MIT. We're all talking about getting our internships the next summer. And so we're, like, you know, I was building a website. And then this other guy, Alex Dixon over in the how building website too. I can see out of the corner. I'm like, what the heck? What's that guy doing over there? And so that's actually how we, like, both 1, like, got really close to each other.

C We just had these conversations about the web and, like, architecture looks like on the web and what it has to act. And then also just actually talking about the technologies like, oh, you're building web stuff too. Like, this is cool. This is not Like, it it didn't seem like a career. Definitely not at that point. And so as we got going, we, you know, we kinda encourage other students. We started learning other things, like Like, okay. So, like, Grasshopper was kinda like that first early introduction.

C Right? And that that time, it's like, oh, this is scripting. This is not so bad. Like, I can automate stuff. How I can pull down data. I can manipulate data. I was like, okay. This is not as bad as, like it doesn't need to be a blob. And then that kind of moves on and becomes how Even more, like, what's the next layer to that? Like, oh, okay.

C Like, you're learning Python. Like, but 1 next layer, like, what but all like, it was super scary obviously. Like, I'm a motherfucker, what am I doing in here? How And so but there's, like, problems you're trying to answer, like, when you start learning each of these steps. And then you find the tool that makes that work. Right? So it wasn't that we were like, oh, I wanna be a programmer. I wanna build a software com software like product. It's just like, oh, I need I need to solve this problem. Like, how do we do it? How Kinda like survival mode with tools instead of, like, you know, jobs.

C That's how I think of it. And so Dixie and Mo itself started forming. It's because, like, we were just building these how little moments of building confidence. Like, there's this thing, like, and it works. Like, now I have a Python script that works that, like, does all this crazy stuff. Like, wow. That's awesome. And we wanna take that, like, one level deeper.

C And so we at MIT in this in January, because it's freezing cold, they don't have any school. And there's this how Program. It's called IAP, where you can take, like, a bunch of classes. You can just kind of explore. There's, like, a wine a very famous wine class there every, January. But Alex and I, we decided to enter this programming competition, which a bunch of, like, well known like, the Dropbox founders won it, and there's, like, a bunch of well known people who have won this competition. So Alex and I were like we're we tried to get a little bit ambitious. Like, hey, let's answer this competition.

C Or and mind you, these are all like like MIT CS majors. These are people who, like, know how to program. So we're answering this thing and we're like, okay, we know what we're doing a little bit. But we answer it to designers and then we end up winning $3,000. We're like, what? This how This is crazy. Like, people value design. Like, we definitely did not have the best software, but it was beautiful. It was incredible.

C And I think that was probably the biggest vote of confidence for us how like, oh, maybe we could do this like, now the next layer. And so like the last layer kind of building up in school where we were like, started starting to become Vixenmmo is that, A couple of our professors, so, Sheila Kennedy. I don't know if you guys know it. Kennedy of the Elect Architects. We did their website, and they're pretty well known phone firm out in Boston. And then we did a a bigger firm you both both might know, MASQ Design Group. They're, Like much bigger, and so we did their website, and that was like a whole that was a whole another layer. In terms of like just again building this confidence, building this layer of confidence that someone would trust how A bunch of knuckleheads to actually, like, build tools and software for them.

C And so and I was I was gonna give a big shout out to, like, our our buddy Carl Barker who how Now runs a firm. But he was a classmate of ours who really, like, encouraged us to say, like, hey. You guys can do master that group.

B Yeah. So when you were working on both of those websites, were you guys still in school, or was this, like, after you had graduated?

C Nope. This was probably between 2nd 3rd year, so it's kinda that summer. So We're still very much in the thick of the school that we were starting to build stuff like this.

B That's awesome. I mean, that's pretty cool because you're kind of experimenting. Like you said earlier in the interview. You're you're trying on different things that you're interested in and just seeing what pursuing that path looks like and where it leads you essentially.

C No. A 100%. There's definitely paths that we went down that that went nowhere. I'll be honest. Like, it's it's kinda like that mentality. Right? Like, you have to be okay with saying, like, how try this for a little while. I'm just like, nope. That didn't work.

B So how did you get into your current position?

C Basically, we took that knowledge. We built a bunch of websites in school. We graduated, and then we decided to move out to San Francisco because Alex's wife Worked at Stanley Sadowitz. And he and I just worked on a laptop at that point. So it's like it didn't matter where we live. But it was very convenient when it happened to be San Francisco for us. Right? And so we moved out here. We started doing a bunch of contract work.

C We just did kind of the same stuff we were doing. Architecture website, we did Stanley's website. A bunch of other architecture websites. And from that learning, we actually realized, like, I know architects Love to believe that, like, they're super unique. But the reality is most of their websites are the exact same with just, like, some, like, visual differences. Right? And so we actually started building the very 1st version of Monograph, which is you I think you both are familiar with was more of a website builder. It's sort of a Squarespace for architects, how really specifically honed in and kinda what architects care about. And so that was kinda like the initial impetus is just having done, like, how architecture websites at that point, like, they were fundamentally the same.

C And so that that was kinda like where we started going. That's where Monograph became kind of, like, this bigger thing. And we had I think at that, maybe, like, by the time we met Evelyn, we probably had, like, 30 or 40 firms using that that software, how Which is fascinating to us. But, admittedly, it was a tough business. Like, even if you're a 200 person firm, you're only paying us, like, $30 a month. And so we weren't it didn't feel like we were kinda getting all the value. Like, that we felt great. Like, we're all we're they're all building beautiful websites, but it didn't feel like a great business for us.

C And so that's Kinda why we ended up pivoting a little bit to the current version.

B Yeah. I really wanna dive into that if you're willing to share because I think it's fascinating. Two follow-up questions to that. Mhmm. And one is when you started seeing growth and and you went from having having 2 websites to all of a sudden, you had 30 different architects coming to you. What was that growth process like? Where is it through referral, or how did you get your clients? And then the second question is just about the business model itself and anything that you can tell us about the idea of did you see yourself as a service firm when you were doing websites, or did you see yourself as selling a product? Or, like, how did you guys think about your business model?

C Sure. So this will go back to my intro of saying like the fuzzy edges, the whiteboard. Right? Like, our business model was essentially the same thing. For sure, like the all the early people were we're very much a how Service business. We were hand we're flying out to like all their wherever they were, Boston, Kansas City, Oklahoma, you know, Seattle. We'd fly up to where they're at, Meet them in person, do some sort of charrette's. Like, is it very much like a architecture business? Like, this is how we and we ran it the same way. Right? Like a client project.

C Eventually, we started sort of productizing that. Like, so the very first version of my app was literally just, like, hey, here's where you upload your stuff. And then we'd still do the service component on top of that for a while. How Probably for, like, 10 or so firms. Right? Everything was manual. Poor Robert, bless his heart. He'd be, like he'd get their Dropbox file and just upload all the images and all the text. And so, So I get very much was not automated at that point.

C It probably took about a year and a half, like, because we're both doing this we're only a 4 person company at that at that point. I should clarify, because we're both doing a service and it's, like, building, like, the software product tool on the side. Like, it just it just took time. It probably took about a year and a half or so For it to really get clicking. And by the end, no. We didn't do anything. People just put their credit card in, signed up, did all the work themselves, and then ready to go. Anya, think of the second question.

B Oh, just about, like, how did your clients, end up coming to you? Was it by further word-of-mouth, or how did you attract people?

C Yeah. I think it was 2 parts. Referrals in particular in the services industry is probably, like, the number one where people how Generally rely on. I think the 2nd layer, and this was a little bit unexpected, was that we started writing about like, we actually write about the process of, like, What do you need? What does it what does an SEO look like for an architect? Or what does it look like for an architect to have a really good website? Like, how do you get leads from websites how And stuff like that. And so we had on our old site, which I think there's a few I think you can still find it. There's, like, 5 or 6 different articles just, like, talking about that. We found we had we had many people, like, call us on the phone call Alex. So like, how do you find my number? Like, because we didn't actually publish our number at that point.

C And so people have literally, like, found them, like, through our articles, just reading about, like, how to, like, do something. And the big firms, like 50 person firms, not like, No. 1 or 2 person firms. It was kind of fascinating that sort of operating in public in that way was, like a marketing tool. We just were doing it because we're like, hey. I wanna tell people what we're working on.

A What was the, like, what was the internal conversation like when you guys decided to make how The pivot from the websites to the to the ERP. Was it like a was it something that happened naturally? Was it like a full stop how Switch this is actually something I haven't talked to Robert about, so I'm kind of interested in hearing.

C So okay. So I I I gave you guys a little little nugget earlier that kind of led to what I was saying. So we always we had this conversation, like, it was great. We built this product. It's Pretty low maintenance. People are just on there signing up on their own. But it's not like a great business. Like, I can't imagine us spending a bunch more time on this.

C Like, and the other layer to this, we applied for the startup, accelerator called Y Combinator and we got an interview actually. And so they we interviewed them. And before we actually went to the interview, we actually we, had a conversation with Tracy Young from PlanGrid, the former CEO of PlanGrid. And she like, which honestly to this point is, like, amazing that she made any time for us at all. Like, she was that food company was already 400 people deep. And she spent her lunch talking to us and kind of giving us feedback. But she was straight up like, okay, what's your guys' big idea? We're like, well, if we make this like Website thing that we can eventually turning into, like, a project management thing. It's like, why aren't you guys building that? Like, why aren't you just building that? And then she's just, like, kept eating her lunch.

C And I was like, I love what you guys are doing, but build the thing that you actually want to build. I gotta go. I was like, oh, crap. And then so we went to the YC interview and they obviously ended up rejecting us and we came back. We're like, how Man, we're just like sitting in the office, like like dejected a little bit. Like, dang. Like, I guess this wasn't like a good idea. And so Robert's like, look, Tracy's probably right.

C Like, I think I can sell the crap out of, like, a project management. Everyone keeps asking me about, like, project management or, like, back office tools. And so we're like, okay. And so it was like that immediately. Like, that day we went back to the whiteboard. It's like, what does this look like? How long does it take us? And all that stuff. So we basically it probably took us another month or 2 to, like like, close, with the website product. But we still have people on there now.

C It's still, like, 80 firms or so. Still using that website product, but we don't it's closed and no one else can sign up. How That was that was the impetus was really honestly Tracy's conversation with us.

A Yeah. That's crazy. I don't think a lot of people realize how that entrepreneurs actually take pivots like that. So it's it's I guess it's fun to kind of hear how quickly you guys actually, like, took that advice and pivoted. And now and and now Monograph got funding. So I I know Robert was deeply involved. I'd be interested to hear your story and kind of, like, what it was like given your the hats you wear going and and getting some VC funding for for Monograph to grow on.

C No. It it was definitely like, as a not an easy decision. I think we probably sat down. We have a, like, a month every Monday, we have a partner meeting. We sat down for how 8 months straight, like, trying to should we raise money? Should we continue bootstrapping? And, like, honestly, one of the difficulties was there was 222 parts. 1 is that we actually how Fundamentally felt like we were part of, like, this indie hacking group. Like, we were bootstrappers. We actually sponsored the Indie Hackers podcast.

C They only had, like, 8 sponsors and we're one of them over this history of before it got bought by Stripe. And so we like like, we are a part of we're any hack. If we build side projects, we build a bunch of side projects that made us, like, money. And so it was it was we it was a weird sort of, like, middle ground. I think I think the actual switch where we finally realized it was that We'd probably got up to maybe, like, 20 firms using us and just talking to them on the phone of all their problems. Like, all the things that like, how We were just solving a very we're solving, like, time sheets at that point. Right? That's all we were solving. It was, like, time sheets and getting reports out of it.

C And they're, like and they were, like, okay. Can you guys solve this? How Can you solve this? Can you solve my consultants? Can you solve, like, how we budget better? Like, there's so many layers and nuances to architectural problems That we were just, like, just on the brink. And then we got up to maybe, like, 30 or 40 customers at that point. We're like, This is consistent. Like, people will not stop asking us for this. Like and we know it's a huge problem. Like, this is like Autodesk. Like Deltek has been around for 30 years or whatever, 35 years.

C And they they just basically stopped development for all intents and purposes. Right? And so there was clearly room for someone like us to, like, come in and how many like, there's so few people that exist, like, that were former architects. All our wives are architects. And then that we also, like, happen to be building software with some of the biggest, like, how Startups out here in San Francisco. So we had, like, very specific knowledge and skill sets to build this company. And so honestly, like, there's almost a part of it that felt like, If we didn't do it, like, it felt wrong in some sense. Like, if I was just like, okay, let's just bootstrap this company and, like, you know, let's do well for ourselves. Like, it probably would have been a fine company.

C How I felt I felt guilty, like, not making an effort at it. Right? And so that was finally for at least Alex and myself in particular. And I think Robert's always been really excited about he's kinda like the business, like, driver of our company. Alex and I are kinda like the, you know, engineers and, like, we build a lot of the tools. But Robert really was obviously like, you mentioned that he spearheaded the fundraising and did incredible job. Unbelievable grind, what he's doing for that how Last year.

B Yeah. Robert is a really interesting entrepreneur, and and I just I'm I've mentioned that I met him out in San Francisco, how, and he is always at all of the networking events. He's always supporting everything. I just think he's such a great champion for what you guys are doing, and and it's been fun to learn about what you're doing. And I'm I'm really glad to have this conversation about entrepreneurship and architecture and the fact that you guys They're also both, like, the architecture and career path where you're you took your education and then you figured out how to make it work for you, and you're doing something different. And I was wondering, what skills from your educational experience how have shown up in what you're doing now in your career.

C Sure. So there I think the meta there's obviously a bunch of meta skills. I think being architecture, Architect. We're like operating as a generalist. Like, we're so spread so thin and we're like expected to know like how to detail something. I didn't get something from the city. I had to talk to a client. How to present something.

C Like, there's obviously, like, a huge amount of layers. But I think one of the things that which I didn't realize until we kind of discussed it recently how Was that one of the the reasons we ended up down this path is actually to discuss stuff that we were not taught. And so, like, in architecture school, you're only taught 1 pro practice class. And our pro practice teacher was Phil Freelon who, like, rest in peace. He was amazing. He was my favorite teacher. But that was it. You're in school for 8 years and you get 1 girl back in class.

C Like, And so that was honestly, like, the thing that impetus that was like, hey, there's this huge gap in things that we don't know. Like, how do we what's the fastest way? What's the best way to learn this? It's like how To think through the entrepreneurial lens in that case. Right? Like, we ran an agency for 5 years or so. We learned, like, client relationships. We learned how to hire accountants. We learned how to get, like, loans for a business. Like, there's all these, like, financial things you just don't know. And, like, there's other other, like, industries and worlds that are so sophisticated about these things.

C And their Architects are like, we're just it's not that we're inept. We just were never taught and you're there's not a lot of references and we're not we're not even allowed to talk about money. Like, it's kind of taboo in our industry. Right? And marketing, like, I think this the famous story is we just we weren't allowed to do marketing for the eighties. And so like all these things are so fascinating to myself and so like obviously my co founders. That was that was the bit that I thought was most interesting in terms of, like, our career trajectory. It was, like, trying to fill in those gaps, Like, as we as we kept going.

B I'm glad to hear you say that because I felt the same way, and I think that's probably why I ended up going to get my MBA. How pro pack was actually my favorite class, and I was, like, kinda in isolation on that. But, We Evelyn and I just did a pro prep class, like, 2 weeks ago. Was that when we did that?

A I think so.

B Yeah. But, basically, it was, I don't know. I just I I feel like it's a huge missing piece of the education. And it's pretty cool to hear you guys say that you sought out those skills to go fill in where you felt like you were missing information.

C Yeah. And it it is it is interesting that you bring it up that it how It was anomalous for you, like, in terms of, like, you were the one who liked it. I think it was very similar at MIT. We were, like, the 2 of us and then Mace, how Basically, like, maybe 1 other student, like, really took it seriously. Everyone else slept through it. Right? It was so bad. Like, Phil Freeland is teaching us pro practice. Like, that's insane.

C Like, oh, man. I loved his stories of of, how you get clients. Like, he would always, like, hand make all these, like, gifts and stuff like that in terms of, like, every Christmas. Like, that's how you get referrals. That's how you get people excited about you. And that was cool to me. Like, I remember that stuff. Yeah.

C And it's too bad. Like, I I don't know if there's maybe a better format for, like, presenting, like, You know, that maybe it's like a dry business class for a lot of folks because, like, it it it is a it's a design problem. Like, and I know I've heard you guys in the other podcast talk about, like, how you how design thinking through an operational lens or like a business lens. I think that's that is how, like, we approach it. Right? Like, I think it's exciting all 3 of how part of doing something similar.

A So towards the earlier part of the conversation, you you talked about how you've developed these engineering skills over time, just mostly out of how out of need and kind of gain confidence. Like, where you are now and at the top of the call or at the top of the conversation, you actually identified as a designer first, Yeah. You're head of engineering. So do you consider yourself an engineer?

C That's that's a tough question. I still would say I'm a designer. But I know enough engineering that, like, I'm confident that I can run a software company. How And so, like, we're we're very unique. And and I know this is this is a struggle for us as cofounders. We're very unique in the sense we don't have an engineering org. We have a product org only. And, like, I worked at a lot of companies that, like, we I worked previously with Figma for, like, about a year.

C I worked with a company called Spoke. We're both really, like, well known, Like deep engineering, companies. We and we, like, bucked that trend. We're like, no. We're a product company. Everyone kind of rolls up to this single product rule. And The reason is because we don't want people to think of silos, especially at this stage. We're only 8 people.

C Like, we don't want people to think of themselves in silos how In terms of, like, that's a product problem or that's an engineering problem, like, it's an us problem. And even to double down on that. So Will, another thing that we took from our kind of architectural education is this idea of pinup. So we have pinup's monograph and it's relatively recent. We've only been doing it for a little bit, but A pinup is different than, like, a design sprint in the sense that design sprint is very much let's take everyone's ideas, let's iterate on this concept, and let's try to, like, test it out for a week. Right? That's the idea of a design sprint. A pinup is much different. It's mud looks a lot more like architecture school and the set fact that everyone has the same brief.

C Here's the problem. Right? Here's your resources. Here's the context that you get. Let everyone present your own version of that from the ground up. It looks much more like a school. How Right. And so everyone basically at a print up is like, hey, here's you have $1,000,000. Here's the hardest problem at Moderna Graph.

C How would you approach this problem from every single part of the company? Right. This is not like, oh, let's what's the product's version of this? What's engineering's version of this? No. Let's let's all think holistically about this problem. And then you can present what you think. Right? It's interesting. Like, obviously, people rely on the things that they're strong at. But you also get people that give you lenses into, like, this is how engineering might think of marketing. Right? Like, oh, we can probably, like, automate a bunch of all this stuff.

C And so I I I don't think I think partially why I struggle with that answer is I don't want to necessarily, like, Try to get that identity. Like, I like the idea that it's more holistic in that front, but I still feel comfortable being sort of head in engineering in that sense.

A Yeah. I mean, that's interesting to me because, You know, I'm at a technology company now, right, with Slack, and we do, we do a yearly hackathon, but it's clear that, like, the scope And the outcome of what happens from that hackathon, it's like, it's really hard not to participate, or it's actually it's hard to participate if you're not an engineer. And I was like and I even looked at it, and I was like, oh, like, how could I get involved? But yeah. So I I like this idea of a pinup. Like, how would you solve it from an perspective, how do you solve it from a business development perspective, how does how does marketing, and customer experience look at this

C Mhmm.

A Versus just how Engineering. So that's I I I feel like that's something actually probably more large tech firms could learn from.

C Yeah. Yeah. No. Totally agree. I I don't think we understood the success of it until we talked to, like, everyone, like, all our friends and stuff. But, like, you did what? Like, you let the how Engineers said, what? That's crazy. And so yeah. Yeah.

C I I agree. I think I'd I'd love to see that more. Like, I'd love to let everyone's voice how be heard

A at the top. Right? So talk a little bit more because you're also leading culture at Monograph. So talk a little bit more about why you you hinted at why you felt that was important, but I I would like, you know, say a few more sentences on that, and then, obviously, monograph has been pretty well published around the 4 day work week. So, like, does it talk about that too?

C Sure. So okay. Coming from architecture, I think we know there's there's it's a it's a tough profession, like, in terms of, like, working a ton, working late, They're not being valued. And I worked in, like, 8 offices, like, all over the world. And so, like, it does it's not it doesn't matter where you're at. It's all kinda the same a little bit. And so I Like, it's important to us. And I I think one element I should clarify is, like, maybe the elephant in the room might be that fact that, hey, we're a software company.

C We have better margins. We're a better business. How We have the opportunity to do this. No. We also did this when we're in Dixon and Moe when it was a struggle. Like, 4 day work week has been the thing we've done. It's not just the 4 day work week. Like, just kind of valuing your employees how Like your time and all that has been important from the very beginning.

C And so bringing it to actually on it if anything, bringing it to the software side with venture capital behind us It's much harder because they obviously have a financial stake in our company and they can say, like, how you guys why are you guys doing this? And so it's very important in that in that sense. And the other bit about this is that Monograph was a side project. Like Monograph wouldn't exist if we weren't working like Fridays on like writing code for something very different than like, actually what paid the bills. Right? And so we the culture, like, the existence of monograph is because of partially like this cultural event that we had. And, kind of like the 2nd layer of this is that we're self learners. Like, we've just talked we just briefly talked about kind of like the idea of like filling in these gaps. And I think a lot of people want to be able to do that. But when you have kids at home, when you're trying to figure out other hobbies, when you're trying to like, hey, I have to get the car repaired.

C Like, you can't be doing that and also trying to, like, learn something on the side. Like, it's really difficult. And even though, you know, architecture studio teaches you, like, oh, Saturday is your most productive day. How Like, I don't want that to be on my company culture. Like, that is not a goal. Like but we want the sort of curiosity and, like, the open and the clear thinking how that the extra day off gives you. And so, like, the day off I'm looking, you know, people can do it, use it however they want, but we obviously, like, sort of I think we privilege a little bit people who are, like, self learners. Like, people are, like, hey, I wanna, like either I wanna learn a new skill or I wanna, like, garden or, like, I wanna do something.

C Like, I wanna, you know, I wanna enact on this day. And so that's kind of like been the motivation and why we've continued it and why we fought for it and why we'll die on the hill of, like, 4 day work how It's really important. It's productive for our company, not you know, it's not a detraction.

A A part of that, obviously, is that you're still encouraging side projects. How Right? So so talk a little bit about about these side projects that actually helps you grow monograph and, you know, have have the how to explore monograph a little bit. I mean, I remember Robert talking to me about, right, the Chinese New Year site. There's also a site Around color. So talk to us a little bit more about, like, what these side products are, what you've you know, what it's what they maybe helped helped you learn and why you continue to do them.

C Okay. Sure. So there's many layers to it, but I'll kinda speak to a couple of them. One of them is, like, I I think how Because we are architects, because we have egos, we want our own projects. Right? I wanna know, like, how is it look like for myself to, like, brand something how And to conceptualize it and to, like, do the engineering that I want to do and then to market it the way I want to do it. Like and it's nice that the scope is tiny and that There you can execute on something like that, you know, on a on a on a Friday, on a day off. So that's one of one line. And all of us, like, think that.

C I think Robert had Robert also has his versions of that also looked like that. Previously, he ran SectionCut for a long time, and he was flying out to workshops and stuff like that. And so we all have our versions of that. Right? And I think the 2nd layer is honestly, like, it's great, like, it's great to experiment and to also have, like, financial how gains from something like that that you're spinning off on the side of, like, some people do, like, like, the new e commerce projects. Some people like to sell some freelance time on the side. But, like, side projects is also a great way to, like, you know, Chinese New Year. It's a great it's a it's a wonderful little business that, You know, a lot of, like, particularly when it comes up during Chinese New Year, there's, you know, plenty of people who want to, like, case list once then, you know, get a great ad placement on Chinese New Year how Or like our color sites, you know, we could kinda sell services on top of that. And so we're and I should clarify that we're talking like literally this as 5th probably has had millions of people coming every month, This is crazy to me now.

C But also, like, having that skill set to, like, what's it look like to scale to millions of people visiting your website per month. And so that's big learnings for us in terms of, like, bringing back the monograph.

B I'm interested to hear a little bit more about what it's like to be an entrepreneur and any lessons that you've gained by going through this process. Because, I mean, it is such a radically different experience working in an architecture studio, and I'm only, like, a year into doing this full time. So and I can already see, like, oh, man, different learning curve, different experience entirely. I'm curious what that's been like for you.

C Yeah. I'm sure as you both know at this point, it's It's so tough. Literally, like, every day, there's highs highs and, like, super low lows. There'll be days when, you know, we how Close like we closed Strahan Architects. Like, that's crazy. That's insane. And then we go a week, we're like, we haven't closed anyone. Or like we're about that we literally launched, like, the thing I'm most proud of ever called how logic planner.

C It took us 6 months. The entire team was involved, all 8 people. It was super exciting. And then, you know, the next day we have, Oh, we have a bunch of bugs and stuff like that. So it's crazy just like the the roller coaster that entrepreneurial life is.

B Yeah. I agree with that.

C Like, I'm sure. Yeah. Like, there are days when you're super excited and you get the clients, like, the clients clients coming out through the door. And then there's obviously like the giant loads. But, It turns out actually the learning process. I think the the best I wouldn't this is like an emergent skill and kind of like a lot of the things that so far that we've talked about today is that, just kind of the resiliency. Like, nothing is really that bad. Like, you're gonna be able to eat.

C Like, you're gonna be able to figure stuff out. Like, you're gonna get clients eventually. And even if not, like, it's how Probably okay. Like, you can go get an architecture job again. I guess that that hasn't felt like that bad, you know. May may maybe we've been lucky a bit, but, You know, there were there were, like, when we were running an agency, like, the 1st couple of years, there was probably, you know, 3 or 4 months just didn't take a salary. And, you know, it wasn't like in in the in the time it feels terrible, like, feels horrible. Like, what am I having to pay rent? But you eventually make it up.

C Like, you eventually it's like, how It's not as bad as you think it is in that that moment. And so if it's not a particular skill, maybe resiliency would be the skill in that sense. But, and also maybe, like, just awareness of the risk level. Like, it's much less risky than you probably think it is.

B Yeah. I I relate to everything you're saying. I mean, On a day to day basis, like, in the morning, I can be on a high or a low, and by the afternoon, it can be completely reversed. Sometimes because it's hourly.

C Yes.

B It just makes you like, it toughens you up and and to your point, you know, you realize things aren't how bad. And I would say, yeah, I agree. Like, the biggest thing I was concerned about in in terms of, like, becoming an entrepreneur was giving up my salary. Because, like, I think in the narrative, it's like we all build it up. Like, oh, we're supposed to have a job and, you know, this this is consistent. I get paid every week, and then I'm I have these benefits. And I think once I got used to it, like, I realized it wasn't it It wasn't that scary, to be honest. Like, you just learn to deal with less.

B And then when you start earning money, like, that is so rewarding. Like, that process of, like, coming into that.

C No. I agree. Like, the other the other cool, like, like, insight is the fact that, like, when you work, like, money comes in. Like, that that was always it's like, oh, that's cool. How Like, if I work at, you know, a little bit harder or, like, smarter, and I'm like, oh, yeah. There's a little bit more money comes in. That's cool. Definitely.

A Yeah. I'm thinking, yeah, I'm I'm still stuck on the fact that you guys have millions of people visiting your side projects. I'm like, I think I need to I think I need some SEO.

C I mean, I I run it we end I run SEO at Figma. So, like, I'm I'm pretty like, I I can make this work for you. If you need how I'm I'm happy

A to help. I was like, practice of architecture has been up, but not not to the millions. That's Yeah. So what and I I just wanna be aware of time. I think there's so much that we can continue to unpack. But if you were to, you know what what would your advice be to several different people? So what would your advice be to someone who's in school how Right now, what would your advice be to the new grad? And what would your advice be to somebody how Probably, like, on the the younger, what we would consider an emerging professional side that that's now, like, potentially facing furlough if they haven't been laid off how and are looking to transition to the

C engineering or product side. Okay. Sure. So, like, school, I think that's for me, Like, enjoy it. Like, I think when you're in it and it's a grind and you're, like, haven't slept and you're, like, you have to pin up, like, that feels it feels painful. And you're, like, I do not like this. But on ultimately, like, that is probably the most autonomy you will have in terms of, like, your design process and getting to present and really, really getting to, like, how Explore your creative output and sort of like process. And so do that if you can.

C Also find time for side projects. That that was kind of like Alex and I became entrepreneurs while we were in school. And for the new grad, this is kind of repeat what we just talked about a little bit. Like, things aren't as risky as they seem. In fact, when you're young, it's probably a little bit easier. There's a good chance you have less demand in your life. You may not have a family yet. You may be open to living anywhere.

C Like, maybe you can live in Thailand for a little while and kind of explore. And so that was kind of what I mean, I guess I ended up going in the Netherlands and China for a while. And the last one is like, it's very close to my heart at this point because I'm one of the leaders I'm a group called Architecie. And there's a bunch of different mentorship programs around that. There's specifically one that I'm helping that does, like, 8 week kind of, like, design project sprints. And sort of tip typically my advice is to kind of, like, try to, like, structure and format and get real things. Not real things, but like, Real progress on a project. Right? And so this group in particular, they do you can kind of week 1, you get to pick a project.

C How Anything it can be. I wanna make my resume amazing. I wanna make a new portfolio page. I wanna design a new project. But whatever it is, like, it's, I think this is, like, the great way to, like, look look through, this type of transition. Like, what do you want to do? What do you wanna explore? How do you actually execute on this? And so, I'd love to kind of maybe link back to this if possible. That's a great little group. Like, I'm not I'm not leading it.

C I'm just helping critique on all of them. But I think it's honestly, like, a very good foundation how for transitioning.

B Can you expand on what that group is? Like, who's involved in that group?

C Sure. So there's a, how LJ and Andrew. I can remember Andrew Cohen, I believe his last name. And so they formalized this, people who wanna do the transition, like, very specifically into the exactly that Evelyn just said. A lot of people have been laid off now or like specifically looking at transition at this point when they're all remote. And so they do basically 8 week sessions. And there's 1 coming up in the end of where we at in the September, actually, for the next 8 week cohort. And so Architec is gonna be sponsoring the next one.

C And hopefully, we'll be able how Two kind of parallel sessions going at the time, same time. Roughly 8 people in each group also.

A I mean, it's it's interesting because you are making a product that's how Works with architects all the time, but do you at all ever feel isolated from the architecture profession because of the path you've chosen?

C So I think this is an interesting question because I think I've always lived on the fringe of it. I was never, like even when I was in the offices, I'm I was like the rendering person or the grasshopper person or, like, the kind of, like, Not the person going to the city or the person looking at codes. That was just never my role. I was always kinda, like, helping on other ends. And so and then kind of finding my tribe with architecting. Like, there's over, I want to say 1200 people total right now as part of how Architecting of the Slack group are are mailing list. And so just knowing there are that many people either already have done the transition or wanting the transition or even exploring that Make it makes me feel like, oh, I there is I'm not maybe an architect, but I'm part of this, like, group. Right? And so that specifically has been really, really rewarding for From both, like, a personal level, like, just, like, oh, there's other people doing this, but also, like, being able to help on that end.

A So so that is an interesting so I I wanna take I wanna go jump back to my last question then. So what do you think knowing what you do know of the profession, What would your advice be to the firm practitioners and the firm leaders out there, if at all about how Either getting more entrepreneurial about, you know, shifting culture. What what what advice do you have for how For people even even, like, my my at my stage in my career, where I would say, like, I'm mid career, like

C Mhmm.

A You know, I'm over 40. So how So do you have any advice for those individuals? Sure.

C So let me maybe start with the firm owner and then this you know, I swear this is not a shield for my product. But honestly, like, running a better business, like, if you treat your firm like a business a little bit, like, it gives you more opportunities to be either do better design or spend more time on marketing and getting how out there. Like, that is partially why we're doing it. It's not just because we think there's opportunity. Like, genuinely, we love architects. My wife's an architect. How Alex's wife is an architect. We're trying to help them.

C Like, it's that's really like a goal. And so that's the beginning is like, hey, Forget the entrepreneur for a second. Like, just run your try to figure out how to run a better a better business. Right? And then the 2nd layer to that is, like, things that you're talking about. I think how We our skill sets are so broad, and I'm I'm hoping that my life hopefully illustrates that a little bit. Like, we are generalists. We're, You know, even if you know codes really well and you know things, how to get things in the city, like, that is translatable to other things. Like, that's not what you're all an expert at.

C Right? And so even as a like you talked about a mid career professional. Like, in fact, a lot of the things you're doing, like, that's what we do at software companies. Like, if you wanted to transition into, like, leadership at how PM role. Like, PM is no different in architecture than it is in software. We run it the exact same way. And having, you know, work with both the PM and software and in architecture, like, They're very, very similar jobs. And so I would also just not be afraid of that exploration. Like, that's a great time to kind of Obviously explore a little bit, especially all of us all being clear about.

C I think it even opens up the lens even bigger for everyone.

A Yeah. One of the things that I've learned in tech Is you know, I there's obviously the stable of architects, especially the older stable of architects that, like, get really frustrated when they look how when they look up architecture jobs on any of the big job boards and all the, like, technology architects come up 1st. And I was like, but what you don't understand, like, at a core, like, the way they're applying skills or where they're taking information from multiple different datasets how solve a problem that, like like, they are doing at the software level what you guys do at the building level. Mhmm. So, Yes. I think we're gonna always have issues with architect from a titling standpoint. But, like, I think we need to be okay by You know, and when we talk about raising the value of architects and what they do, like, that is what we're doing how at the building level that those people are doing the same thing at the software level. So I feel like us as a profession need to get more okay with that so we can help other people understand what we do as architects.

C Yeah. If anything, they should resonate with it. Right? It should be like, oh, I get what you're going through. Like, I get I get the technology architect thrill.

A But they but they just complain that, you know, it takes, like, 3 it takes 3 pages before you actually hit a building architect versus, how to

C make sure technology.

A Yeah. Janine, did you have any final questions for Moe?

B Well, I guess the final thing I wanna say is that I have Just seen monograph show up consistently to really support this industry, so I wanna thank you guys for what you're doing. I and I and it's how powerful to hear you guys say that you recognize architects consistently have these issues around running their business and that how you wanna elevate their business so that they can do better design, and I think that is a really powerful message for this episode. I think that's exactly why Evelyn and I are both doing what we do. We wanna help architects do more of what they're good at and help them them figure out how to get better at the things that they struggle with. So, to all our listeners, we hope you'll go check out Monograph and, look at all the great things that they can help you with in terms of running your business better.

C Well, thank you both also, actually, very similarly for helping out this industry, I think, how On the marketing end and the sort of the operational end, I think that's huge. Like, us 3 working together hopefully can, you know, move move the needle for everyone,

A how Really. Well, I've really enjoyed that conversation with Moe and catching up with him. It's it's been a while, and I've, I mean, I learned a lot of great things about monograph and other projects that he's working on that I I had no idea was going on.

B Yeah. I definitely enjoyed that conversation a lot. It was really nice talking to another entrepreneur, someone else who's gone through this experience. And, I don't know if it'll make it into the episode, but

A I'm all about this new entrepreneur and architecture happy hour idea. Yes. If anyone is interested in starting an entrepreneur in architecture happy hour, you know, write to us at evelyn@practice of architecture.com. And if we get enough interest, so we can spin it up. So what was interesting to me about Moe's path was that he was okay living in this ephemeral, nonlinear how Career track, which I have personally really struggled with, especially when I stepped off of that career track. So, Janine, I don't know if you felt the same way that it was a it was a new take on approach to career pathing that I'm not comfortable with, but he was clearly, I'm comfortable with it and actually kind of still living it.

B Yeah. I really it was actually very refreshing to hear from that. And even when I Kinda prompted him and was like, okay. So you went from this to this, so tell me why and how. And he basically backed up this whole idea that it was just very, like, organic. And I I have always struggled with stepping off the path. I mean, I wish 10 years ago, I understood that that was an option because then I wouldn't have beat myself up for 10 years about not being licensed by now. But, you know, so so it goes.

A How No. But I I think, you know and for all of our listeners out there who are considering a move off the path, you know, if if how Other episodes haven't, you know, spoken to you. I I hope that as as he goes through how Each each episode that you just know that you're not alone in it because I felt very alone. There are there are people here to support you how that still love architecture and get you and and why you might wanna move in that direction. That being aside, I also appreciated that key approaches business as a design problem. A lot of people often tell me that I'm not an architect because I don't do buildings. But I would say, similarly, you know, I'm applying a lot of that design thinking the three-dimensional problem solving, how Systems thinking, even if you will, in proper business terms to business design.

B Yeah. I agree. I definitely think about my business that way too. I just try to use the same lessons and ideas that I learned in architecture school and approach when I work with a company, kinda looking at the organizational side that same way. And I really appreciated hearing him talk about the use of pin ups because I do think that pin ups in the process of critique is such a powerful way to look at design and have those conversations. So the fact that they're trying to adapt that into different conversations such as marketing or operations or Even the technology side, I think, is really impressive and something that we could all learn from in in trying to adapt some of the things and the training and the skills that we have into other avenues of the way we're thinking about our work that could be really powerful.

A Yeah. I actually feel like this is something that even some of the technology firms that I've worked for as a PAX workplace consultant and even how Even Slack potentially has the capability to learn from. The other unique thing about pinups how In and opening the floor to the entire workforce is that it gives everyone an opportunity to have a voice, how Which I I think is, you know, culturally really important, but it also means that you have so many new perspectives of looking at how you're doing things, that you're you're more likely to find a better or an easier or a clearer way forward by bringing those diverse perspectives, but also by bringing unique new ways of looking at things in general. You don't have to be an expert in marketing to have ideas about better ways to potentially market.

B And speaking of marketing. I think Monograph was really ahead of the curve in terms of using blogs as a method of marketing and getting their ideas out there into the universe, how, which actually led to some client leads.

A Yeah. That sounded like it was pretty good for especially growing their their base of the the website how Right? That stories about operations and businesses and process, which I think you and I have consistently how Recommended to clients to to tell those seemingly no more boring stories that don't involve as many pretty graphics or, you know, the the final outcome or the final project, that those type of stories are really interesting in terms of positioning yourself as knowledge leaders how And also just explaining to people the type of company that you are, whether or not they'd wanna work with you or whether or not somebody would want to work even for you if they're looking towards you as an employee.

B I agree. I think a lot of people are interested to know what it's like behind these, you know, the curtain behind the curtain of the firm, you know, you hear about all these really big name companies, and People are interested in how they work and how do they get to these really big product ideas and project results. And so sharing that information and trying to, you know, position to tell that story can be really powerful in terms of attracting new clients and also even people to come work for you. Like, people will be interested to know what you do differently as a company and the way you think differently as an organization.

A Yeah. Absolutely. And really, you know, putting culture at the forefront. I didn't realize when we got Moe as a speaker that how kind of the culture keeper of monograph. So it was really interesting to hear his take on the 4 day work week and how they fought for that perspective and that That cadence of working even though they now have VC funding, which means that they have other people outside of themselves that they're responding how to. So it was really interesting to hear about the value in that and actually what they encourage people to do with that 5th day, right, to go off and explore

B how things. Mhmm. There's power in making space for curiosity and innovation and to allow room for people to think in unexpected ways about, new ideas or something that they're curious about. Because you can see even with Monograph, that some of these side projects are resulting in additional money coming into the firm. Maybe not at first, but, to Moe's point, I mean, their current business how this iteration, I think, is a result of time spent with clarity thinking about how to evolve the business.

A I think how about, you know, how about to evolve the business? But I think they're they're actively applying lessons learned from their coding side projects to do things better for monograph. How So that's you know, it's I I've been in a few forums lately where people have mentioned that they're at firms that don't allow for these side Projects. And I understand in architecture, you know, if you're encouraging somebody to you know, or somebody moonlight might be how Moonlighting might be in direct competition with you, but I think there's a value of letting them letting them how Do that. You know, let even there's an opportunity for them to build that client and bring them in house. There is a great opportunity for them To learn on their own off off of your clock, to learn valuable lessons from that. And, really, if you have a stable business, Ultimately, they're not necessarily taking any time or money away from your business, but they are growing themselves as an individual.

B Yeah. That's true. And I think it's better to encourage somebody if they have a hobby or something that they wanna explore something or learn and improve their skills. Allowing them to do it with you adds value back into your business and strengthens their skill set versus them feeling rejected and being able to do this and then just wanting to leave your company altogether just so that they can go pursue something. So it's better to, you know, make space and how to create opportunity in those ways, then shut the door. And I think, my favorite takeaway from this episode Code was when Moe said that they're basically doing this work to ensure that architects are, elevating their work by running a better business. I just love that so much because I think sometimes that gets overlooked in an architecture firm. How people are trying to, you know, streamline and create efficiency and just improve the business and get through to the final beautiful building.

B And to me, anytime that you're skipping the part where you iterate in terms of the business side, You're missing this huge opportunity to to do it better next time.

A Yeah. It it was interesting to kinda take that full circle, right, and to ask him whether how or not he still felt that he was an architect like, part of the architecture community now that he heads up engineering at a SAS company, essentially. And, You know, I think I don't wanna speak on behalf of you, Janine, but we are all here. Practice of architecture is here. Practice disrupted is here, how really to collectively raise the value of architects and the value of architecture together. If, how You know, even if that means helping you run your business better. So, you know, that's why we're in it. How We still love architects even though we have seemingly, like, gone down this architecture plus path.

B So I would just say yes, A 100%, Evelyn. I agree with you. I think I think we wanna make the community of architecture bigger by being inclusive and creating space for everybody to contribute in ways that that are meaningful.

A So off of that, I wanted to talk a little bit about architecty, a r c h I t I c h how We will put the link in the show notes to the website, but it is a group of architects that have left the profession mostly on the technology side, thus the term architect y, that is growing. 1st, nationally and now internationally, how architects that have gone down a different path. So if you want a direct connection to all those individuals and to find out more yourself, how Go visit architecty.org. And on that note, we will see you all next week. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice disrupted.com how to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network.

A How You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. If you enjoy the show how want to hear more content like this. You can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let how know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next