Voices from the Future of the Profession (LGBTQIA+)

A Hi. It's Demetrius. Hey, Demetrius. It's Mark. They're in.

B Nice. Taking it to the next level.

A Launching phase 2 of cable media on October 70.

C The practice of architecture, and in particular, practice disrupted have been a catalyst for talking about modern shifts in business and design management to push our industry forward. These conversations are much larger than 2 women on a podcast. This is a second in a series on the podcast we are calling Voices from the Future of the Profession.

D Today's guests include leaders in architecture from the AIA, including individuals who have served on the AIAS, NAB and other allied organizations. We've asked our friends to lead us through a conversation on diversity from the perspective of the LGBTQIA QIA plus experience. We've organized a panel that represents a number of voices in this group, however this panel does not represent all voices. Each person you'll hear from will share their own story, and we'll follow with a discussion.

E Honestly, I am my harshest critic. That doesn't mean I'm not judged by other people, and I work very hard to do the right thing. Whether that's in others eyes or my own eyes. I'm the best at making myself feel not welcome. At every step I take, I ask, Am I enough? As a queer, non binary person, am I doing enough to queer things up? How am I showing up in spaces not To fit in, but to stand out. I'm often the 1st non binary person that people meet, so am I leaving a good impression? Am I enough as an architect? Am I using all of my skills to help projects move along? Am I playing the right role on this project team? Will I ever feel like I belong in the field of architecture? And that leads me to, what does belonging even mean? I think of belonging as a word that's up there with becoming and practice. As in, it's always an ongoing process, and can always be renegotiated and changed. A practice is something you do every day.

E Becoming refers To letting your actions speak louder than static notions of identity, it refers to accepting that who you are is never the same from day to day.

A An experience many queer people have in common is often a reflection on growing up. That one time in the hallway. I have that recollection too. It was middle school, and someone called me a name. It was by a friend with an odd sense of endearment. I think. The experience didn't mean anything until recently. Did they know something I didn't? Was it that obvious? My teenage fashion couldn't have been that good.

A Growing up in West Michigan meant I wasn't really exposed to role models with diverse identities. The ones that were present in my life We're often commented on by family with disdain, which I always felt uncomfortable about. As I packed my bags full of architecture dreams, College and moving to Chicago opened new doors. After many years of wondering, I kissed a girl and then a guy at a party back to back. The guy was better. I'm not sure if this was the moment, but it is certainly a vivid memory. So what do you do with a new freedom of expression, yet a deep seated fear of yourself? I created 2 versions of myself. 1 for Chicago and one for Michigan.

A After realizing this wasn't sustainable, I came out to my parents. This created a foundation from which to be okay would be myself. I wasn't always confident or courageous to be unabashedly me. I didn't realize that just showing up and being present was valued and could be inspiring. I had the privilege to disguise part of myself. I still struggle with that privilege. We are at a moment in society where queer people are burdened with constantly coming out to co workers, to their bosses, to a contractor, to a client. Through this process of self discovery, I realized I could do this in subtle ways.

A If they picked up on it, Great. If not, the groundwork was laid for the next interaction. The moral? I don't make these decisions in advance. I decide in the moment, and that decision isn't based on fear anymore, or worry that I might say something wrong. Empowering others to Feel like they can bring their full selves to the conversation is imperative for the LGBTQIA plus community. A 2017 Gallup poll estimates that 4 a half percent of Americans self identify as LGBT. Equity by Design's 2018 Equity in Architecture survey found that 7% of respondents identified as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. From that 7%, male respondents were more likely than female Clontence to identify.

A It's conversations like these that help reveal a silent minority. It's not just about identity. It's about empowering disenfranchised voices.

F I grew up in a home that at times was outright negative toward LGBTQ plus people, and at other times did not bother to provide or point out positive role model examples of them. This is sadly an all too common experience For people growing up in the Midwest in the eighties. As the oldest child in a Methodist home and a type one enneagram, I grew up being the dutiful daughter. Don't get me wrong. I was stubborn and strong headed. But young me only knew to look to the outside for knowing what was right. And, as the assumed requirement of being a model daughter, what was right was getting good grades, going to church, and thinking my job was to be a good example for my siblings, get a great job, and marry a great guy. I did all of those things.

F And for the most part, I was miserable. I had been so busy perfecting the role I thought I was supposed to play that by the time I was 27. I knew I was in a profession I loved, but was also in a marriage that wasn't true to myself. I had survived architecture school, Grad school. Graduating into a recession. Never feeling rooted in my career and being mostly jobless because of military moves for my then husband's job. And was now at an impasse. Duty versus joy in the whisper of an inner voice.

F I got a divorce and moved back to Indianapolis to build my professional foundation and start over. The easy version of this story would be for me to have listened to that voice and started dating women right at this moment. But I moved back to a space where I had a defined history and that history definitely wasn't bisexual. So, I focused on my career. The thing I was sure and passionate about. But, the thing about focusing on your career and starting over when you've already done one of the Hardest things that you didn't expect to do is that you know you can do hard things. In those formative years of my early career, Our nation was also going through formative change. Women's rights, LGBTQ rights, our 1st Black president.

F I began to seek out, and also more readily see, strong female role models in the profession, as well as strong LGBTQ role models. Suddenly, being strong, sure and passionate wasn't a negative thing. I also began to hear a side of my inner voice speaking louder. Aside that, looking back now, had tried to raise its hands multiple times throughout my life and I had pushed it aside To not disrupt the happiness of others or the roles expected of me. This time, I decided to listen. The inner voice had never been more clear. I switched the gender setting on my dating profiles and never looked back. Architecture continues to grow in fits and starts, as does my place in it.

F We are a conservative business model with an innovative few attempting to change for the better who we serve and how we serve. There were definitely rough patches in navigating the process of sharing with the outside world who exactly I was becoming. The benefit is I now know who I answer to at the end of the day, my inner voice.

G Hi, woman, Latina, lesbian. Pleasure to meet you. Wouldn't this be a ridiculous way to make an entrance? But whether I say it or not, when we meet, these are 3 of the identities that quickly either make me Feel like the other or make me feel like I belong. So by itself, that statement may seem quite finite, but in reality, it is everything but monolithic. The intersection of all of my identities and how they manifest themselves personally and professionally is always incredibly nuanced. And to be honest, it is something I'm learning to uncover every day to understand in myself and in others all of those differences that make a difference. Of those 3 identities, 2 are visible, woman and Latina, and also apparently quite explicit for everybody. No matter where I go, what country I visit, or Person I encounter, I am constantly reminded that in fact, I am Latina.

G But I say all this because looking Latina is inescapable for me. It is definitely not something I can hide, but in contrast to visible differences, the other l word, well, that's a different story. Lesbian. Saying the word out loud still makes me anxious. It is like lightning being shot through my entire body, and it really matters who I say it to whether it's family, friend, colleague, or even a stranger. There is always the immediate fear of the reaction. Sometimes it doesn't even matter if that person knows me already or not. That word always feels so charged for me and it is clearly charged for many people.

G Every day, I am acutely aware of the judgment behind those words. Eyes open, jaw clenches, chest tenses, the body pulls back, small gasp, and then silence. It always feels like a revelation. It's like coming out of the closet every single Time. In my mind, sometimes I'm back in Puerto Rico having snuck out at night to go to the gay bar. I'm alone outside among strangers standing in line Praying for the time to go faster. I have my head down and I'm thinking, I hope no one I know drives by and recognizes me. I hope it is not a classmate or a family member or worse one of my parents' coworkers, but please let it not be someone angry with who we are that decides that This is the last day that we will see anybody ever again.

G I know these things are less likely to happen today than they could have in the Puerto Rico, the late nineties and the early 2000, but it doesn't matter. It does happen And it is ever present when I say the word. My other l word, lesbian, is much harder to say out loud with the same strength As I say Latina because frankly, it is always scary. Why do I say that if I don't have to? Well, because there are invisible differences that do make a difference. Because I love my wife, because I love my lesbian friends, Because my story may resonate with someone because I may help someone else's fears become more tolerable, if not eradicate it altogether. Because I wish someone would have done that for me and been a mentor in my career because visibility is important And because this is very much a part of who I am.

B I've always been fascinated by the concept of comfort. Growing up in Los Angeles, I've always been surrounded by stereotypes, norms. The backdrop of Hollywood is something that you can't exactly Ignore or overlook, especially in your formative years. I think something that really always stood out to me especially is That there was a defined standard of beauty, there was a defined standard of sexuality, and there wasn't really anything you could do to break That immediately without being looked upon as strange, as weird, as other, and naturally as a Non binary individual, I did not fit in. So when I think about comfort, it's hard to relate To our defined standards of comfort. Really, what I view as comfort are norms that are defined by a particular bias that are Potentially destructive and limiting and constricting. So by the time I got to architecture school, it was only natural that those sort of constraints Drains and limitations spilled into my work. I started to look at the way we were taught how to design and how to really think about space As in and of itself constricting, over the course of my undergraduate studies, I ended up understanding that there were masculine tendencies And underlying principles that really veiled what architecture can be And what space can be to provide a sense of comfort for diversity of people.

B To me, the beauty of architecture is that it's alive and active. Just like people, each building, space, place has relationships with its fellow buildings in its immediate and distant context. Architecture is embedded in a network of systems that connect and intertwine, and they connect us. So when we try to define ourselves by a series of terms and boxes, what really we're doing is contradicting the natural order of Our world. And when I say order, I use it loosely. We try to define and make sense of this crazy world for ourselves, But in that same moment, we're creating barriers and handicaps for the next generations. I've been invested in these concepts for years. And when I started to vocalize my Opposition to the quote unquote standards and the quote unquote principles of architecture, I was constantly looked upon with Questionable gazes and confusion.

B When I started to really investigate gender expression in architecture, I started to get enthralled by this notion of queer space. That was actually when I went through my identity awakening, was through the course of my thesis studies. I learned that queer space is labyrinthic. It's temporal. It's sexual. It's different, And it embraces individuality in a way that I had not seen previously. It goes against dominance and power and fear and Starts to suggest that space can be embedded with comfort and accessibility and malleability and response. So when I think about comfort, it's not something that can be defined in a particular time and space, and it's not something I want to define.

B I yearn to show Anyone who interacts with me and anyone that I meet that the most revolutionary and impactful things never came from Comfortable situations, they never came from anyone. Being in a comfortable circumstance, they came from somebody consciously deciding To be comfortable being uncomfortable and breaking through societal pressures in the opinions of others, especially when there's opportunity to recognize Bias and fear and intentionally put yourself in unfamiliar situations. I try to be resilient, And I truly believe that the only way that I or others can be resilient is by taking a step back and recognizing that we have incredible opportunities to change And to see the value of difference around us and to recognize that we don't have to label one another, And we might actually do more good if we just accept everyone for who they are and actively fight The hierarchies that are embedded in our societies don't allow for the continuation of these trends and systems of control. Transform with the world around us. Join me in recognizing that we don't have to be the same.

C We've asked Ryan Gan, associate AIA, who was recently elected to Serve on the AIA national board with me as an at large representative from 2021 to 2023 to lead us through a group discussion to help our audience understand how our industry can be better listeners, apply key lessons into our studios, and take meaningful actions that support individuals from diverse backgrounds.

D Ryan Gann, associate AIA. Ryan Gann has blazed a trail founded on service leadership and design. From his time as an engaged student leader to expanding contributions to the built environment, Ryan has managed to stay ambitious while having fun along the way. As a designer at Ross Barney Architects, he has worked on some of the studio's most ambitious civic projects. These architectural and urban design investigations have allowed him to collaborate with communities across Chicago and the world, expressing the role public space plays in everyday life. Ryan is the recipient of the 2018 AIA Associates Award, Schiff Foundation Fellowship from the Art Institute of Chicago, And was the inaugural architect in residence at Hyde Park Art Center. Ryan previously served on the National Board of the American Institute of Architecture students, the National Architectural Accrediting Board, and the American Institute of Architects.

C AL Hugh is a queer, trans, non binary, Taiwanese American architect, organizer, and facilitator who lives and works in New York City. Their practice synthesizes organizing for racial, class, and gender justice with world building and design, Rethinks the architect's role in facilitating accessible spaces and manifests in design, visual media, and collaborative cultural work. They are a 2019, 2021 enterprise Rhodes architectural fellow and design initiatives manager At Ascendant Neighborhood Development in East Harlem. They share their experiences on a panel of queer architects at the AIA National Conference in 2019, was a thought leader at the AIASF Equity by Design Symposium in 2018, and received the 2018 AIA New York Emerging New York Architects ARE scholarship. They received a master of architecture from Columbia University in 2017 and a bachelor of arts in architecture with a minor in sustainable design From UC Berkeley in 2012.

D Laura Teegarden, AIA, LEAD AP, BD plus c. Laura is an architect at Ratio, headquartered in Indianapolis, and the founder of L2 Design LLC. A published author and creator of ARE sketches, her passion for the profession drives her to mentor young professionals and volunteer in her community. She is a 2017 Young Architect Award winner, the 2019 chair of the Young Architects Forum, The 2020 AIA Indianapolis president and was recently elected as an at large representative on the AIA National Strategic Council. Her website and blog offer unique insights into professional practice together with inspiration and tips for young architects. Giselle

C Santos Rivera, AIA, NOMA, LSSYB, Well AP, LEAD AP. Giselle is a medical planner and the firm wide director of justice, equity, diversity and inclusion at HKS Inc. With national and international experience on a broad range of health care, institutional and commercial slash mixed use projects, She thrives on building belonging and designing for inclusion. Seeking to empower the next generation of leaders, she cofounded the Latin American Can interior designers, engineers and architects, LA IDEA, DC committee, and founded the Women Inspiring Emerging Leaders in Design, or wield event, and is the recipient of the 2019 AIA diversity program recognition award. Missus Santos currently serves on the AIA National Board, the AIA DC chapter board, and is advisor to the DC NOMA board. She is a member of the AIA Equity and the Future of Architecture board committee, the new urban agenda task force, and the AIA COVID nineteen health impact task force. Giselle is an author, storyteller, and recipient of the 2018 AIA associate Award.

D Amy Rosen. Amelia or Amy Rosen recently served as the 2018, 2019 national president of the American Institute of Architecture Students and the 2019 student director of the American Institute of Architects On the national board of directors. Amy is currently working as a socio spatial designer at Place D'Arc in New York City And is a 2020, 2021 at large representative on the AI Strategic Council where they serve as A co convener for the Mental Health and Architecture Incubator. They were born and raised in Los Angeles and moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 2012, where they a bachelor of architecture and a master of science in sustainable design from Carnegie Mellon University. Amy applies integrated design methodologies to everything they do, seeking opportunities to tie architecture into systematic and fluid urban networks. Amy is an advocate for the power of design to inspire, to unify, and to heal, and especially passionate about queer space theory, Efficient urban water management strategies and innovative ways to blur the boundaries between the private and public realms. Using their architectural education as a backbone, AMI incorporates equity and social sustainability into their design process. Amy further leverages a passion for data, research difference, and experimentation in order to unveil innovative design strategies That empower users and ensure a more resilient future.

D Cool.

A Well, thank you, Janine and Evelyn, For hosting this conversation, and to our guests, thank you for your time and emotional labor. So let's start with a round of introductions. Eyal, could you get us started?

B Sure. Hey, my name is Eyal. My pronouns are theythem. I live in New York City.

A Perfect. Amy.

B My name is Amy Rosen. I am also in New York, and my pronouns are also theythem. So, really, I'm just Going off of AL here, but if there's anything else that's fun to say about me, it's That I've been inside for this entire duration of COVID, so I'm definitely bringing a raw and Isolated energy. So I hope that is appropriate today.

A We're here for Amy. Giselle?

H Hi. Giselle Santa Rivera. My pronouns are she, her, e, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y, y. DC, Maryland, Virginia area. I'm actually in in Maryland, but I work in DC. And Laura.

I Hi, everyone. Laura Teegarden here. I am from Indianapolis, and happy to join the conversation.

A And my name is Ryan Ghan, and I'm based in Chicago, Illinois. So I think this conversation is one of The few that many of us have participated in in the past couple of years or at least listened in on. And I also just wanna give some acknowledgement to A session organized by Larry Pascal at the AIA conference in Las Vegas, titled The Silent Minority LGBTQ Voices in Architecture. And that's where I was first introduced to AL. I'm so excited to be with you again. Following that event, AI published an article titled Raising LGBTQ plus voices in architecture. And I think that was probably the first time that I felt like our profession was willing to have this conversation In a very public way. And I think that this forum starts to take these discussions from behind closed doors and open them up to a much broader audience.

A So thank you for being here, and thank you for giving this conversation some space to breathe. So to start us off, What observations did you have listening to each other's audio and feel free to jump in if you feel inclined.

B I'll start us off. Yeah, I think what was really loud to me throughout all of them was this sense of Being unwelcome and I know that was somewhat the prompt, but even just how aggressively different we all feel in our communities And that it's that's really been the main hurdle that, I guess, we've identified in correlation to who we are and how we identify. And It's just really upsetting to me that no matter how many times I hear that, it's still so prevalent, and that Unless you're really going through it, you don't understand how deep and hard it can be to navigate through life with these kind of burdens on our shoulders. And so that was something I really saw across the board. I think what came out really strongly to me was this Thread of both fear and then sort of this growth to face the fear, And then becoming the person that you want to be or that who you were all along. Like, even in my story where I'm talking about, like, I'm just in my own brain kind of criticizing myself, even that's, like, a form of fear. But I think in in other people's stories, it came out as this very visceral, like, like, the fear came out in the way I live my life, or the fear came out in the way that I had to, come off in a certain way or move through the world. And then this really big like turning point of Facing our fears and, sort of moving forward from there and getting Stronger from facing those fears and not letting those fears kinda like bring us down.

A I think it was really interesting to hear, sort of these 4 words come up, and it's joy, comfort, belonging, and fear. And I never really understood The connection between the 4 of them because you use them dramatically different scenarios. But here, through this Storytelling specifically about identity, it came up. And I think, you know, Al and Amy, you're sort of spot on. Lauren, do you have any thoughts?

I Yeah. I think the other thing that I noticed as a threat is just, like, the tensing that, Yisel especially mentioned it that when you feel like you are at a point where you have to once again come out to someone, like, there's just this tensing that occurs Just underlying in different body function. This, like, dread of, gosh, I have to do this again. Like, why do I have why do I have to tell you Any of this, why does it matter? And I think especially in my journey, that has been something that is a relatively new experience through my growth because I didn't always identify as bisexual. Saying that, like, that's the tensing. Like, I just tensed saying that. And so I think that that was a thread that I kind of saw through Each of our introductions in different ways.

A Laura, that's a really good point. Yisel, when I was listening to you saying, And, you know, why do I say I am lesbian if I don't have to? As soon as you said the word lesbian, even though we were just listening to an audio, There was a tone and inflection that was probably completely not intentional, but could you share a little bit more about that?

H Well, it to be honest, even even you asking me to sort of uncover that piece of myself And even hearing you say lesbian, it's just oh my god. I can feel it in my chest. I can feel it in my face. And I I one of the things that that I also heard as as a threat a little bit, And it's it's in part what happens to me is sort of reconciling every time what that means for me in whatever scenario I'm in. And then having to read a room or read a space or even understand myself in that time. It's just it's this constant reconciling of the otherness. It it is kind of all consuming. And even though I've been, I guess, out I don't know how you describe it because We all kind of are out in a measured way forever depending on who we are Surrounded by officially, I guess, for me, it was sort of my mother, my father, my my immediate family, even though I've been out and married and they participated in my wedding, it is still this inherent Fear of, what is going to happen even though I know what's going to happen.

H It just never goes away. So that reconciling Brings up so many memories, and it's it just brings up this need of reconciling why I have to go through this every time even with myself. So I think what what always and I think it resonated with me in in hearing other stories is It's the acknowledgement that you know you're gonna have to go through it and whether you wanna expend the energy or not and what that means in the space that you're creating. Do you wanna hold space at that one time, at this whatever you're surrounded by, and then you kinda have to go back and think, Is it worth it? Why is it worth it? Am I worth it? And that is what always keeps coming up. And I've been at this for A very long time, more than 20 years. So probably longer than all of you, and it still happens every time. So, yeah, that's I think in part that's what I wanted to share is that even if it's for me, it's Latina, I don't have to do that because That doesn't matter. It's a struggle every time, and I I know that people don't understand that that is what it is.

H And it colors everything that happens around us all the time even when we design. Right? So, Yeah. It's a lot.

A I think that is interesting and it's sort of one thing that I mentioned in the opening too was that For us to come out, for me, that's a privilege. That's something that I can, To some extent, hide. It's not part of a visual identity that someone can, make an assumption about. I mean, Lots of people make assumptions about me and all of us. That's for sure. But specifically about identity, let's say. And, Yisel, I think you talked about that 2 in terms of your identifiers. And so I guess I'm wondering for anyone that wants to take this one.

A You know, this is a burden that we have For the rest of our lives because of a point that we're at in society, is it going to change in our lifetime? Is there at some point that we just decide it's We're tired and it's unimportant. Like, how do we move forward now from this sort of burden that we have?

I So I think the the burden piece is is an important factor. And part of my stubbornness wants to say like, At some point, I will lay down the burden because I just won't care what people think anymore. But I think also That that's what makes these kinds of conversations important. Because as Giselle mentioned, there is an otherness, but there's also a community in that otherness. And there's a there's a sense of space and a sense of belonging and welcoming that occurs in that community. An interesting fact is that when Giselle and I were both serving on the YAFNAC committees, She was actually the 1st person that I, like, came out to in my questioning because I knew she was a safe space. I knew that I could talk through, like, what does what did this look like for you? Because this is something I'm not sure about right now. And so, like, that was a huge burden that we lift off of each other when we provide space for those conversations.

B I I would almost reframe burden as, responsibility, in thinking about, being like especially in grad school, Finding out that I was, like, the 1st non binary person that a lot of people would meet and then realizing that I had to kind of, like, show up and be, like, a good example of that. But sort of like as we talk more and more about queerness in architecture and As we continue this process of coming out, it's almost like we have this response responsibility To keep talking about it and to be open about it, because I think of, like, sort of the next generation or even people who are just, like, a few years younger than me. Like, because I I especially think of grad school because the turnover is so fast, you know? It's, 3 years or and you're out, and you don't know who was there before you. You don't know who's gonna be there after you. But you think about them as, like, There are definitely some queer people in that cohort that may need some guidance or, like, don't know who came before them and might want To hear these stories and know that they're not going through this for the 1st time or, reinventing the wheel. And I think that speaks To, the importance of community as well, which Laura also touched upon. It's like you find the people that you know you can trust, who are safe spaces, I think that's part of the responsibility to create some type of community to be, like, they're like, we exist and we're not all alone in all of this. And that community is really where you can find, Different different ways to reframe the situation you're in to find sort of, like, advice and To find a way of belonging and that and to go through that ongoing process of coming out and owning your identities.

B Yeah. I agree, Eyal, that it's it's a responsibility that if we lose that, we lose the opportunity to progress. Like, Ryan, I think your question is a challenge to our society, less so of a question. It's more like, We all know we can get there. It's how and when will we really fight what's been taught to us for so long, And how do we gain a collective understanding of the fact that maybe what's depicted in the media and what we're taught growing up And how we feel that these are all subjective and aren't necessarily what we should be living our lives by. I think The notion of safe space, I just I thought about how, for me, my, like, safe space is queer rave culture. I go out at night, and I Dance in the dark in the corner, and I can be introverted in a crowd surrounded by people that all look different, and that all Don't care how I look or how I'm dancing or how I'm acting, but I think back to, like, my first times going out in that world. And I when I was in school in Pittsburgh, I went to this club called Hot Mass, and it's notoriously a gay bathhouse that was transformed into a And because I appear to be feminine, even though it was a queer space, I was immediately approached with this combative, oppositional approach that because I wasn't a man And I clearly wasn't a gay man quote unquote that I wasn't welcome there and that just felt so counterintuitive to me and not productive and it goes back to our tendency to just think in polarities and like constantly compare ourselves to others.

B So I think in order to progress, we really just have to only compare ourselves to ourselves and who we want to be and how we want to be in the world. And Otherwise, we'll never be satisfied. You know?

H I I love what you just mentioned, Amy. I think I I love that you bring up the fact that even within communities of the other, right, even within marginalized communities that are different degrees A fearlessness, which is what I'm hearing a lot about in this conversation is that there's there has to be some Kind of fearlessness in in owning the responsibility of being truly visible so that we can all build community together. And that that really does mean that we need to be comfortable with the other's otherness In whatever measure in in whatever that means. And I think even within our communities, likely because our own struggle in trying to fit in and trying to figure out what we're doing, We we create our own silos and our own buckets until we figure out a way to feel comfortable within ourselves, then we start Signaling out the other again. So I I love how you share that. Brian's ask is more of a challenge And more of an action, like, when is this gonna happen when when we all play a part in it? Right? When we all Own the responsibility of whatever that means, whether you're straight, non binary, bi, whatever. And we all Own the responsibility of being comfortable with who we are, whether it's a burden, a responsibility, or whether it's, Whatever that means at that one moment because it changes all the time. Yeah.

H I love the action That it it should always be an action, and hopefully, we'll all get to wherever we need to get to together So that we are all just 1 community. But I for me, what I keep hearing is so much fearlessness in all your voices That I wish I would have had 21 years ago, in in in Puerto Rico, and listening to that and And being so much more comfortable in my own visibility, because it when it exists in isolation, it is really hard to kind of build that up, but when you you see you hear other people echo you and and feel you and hold space for you, it's So amazing. So I love this. I love all y'all.

A I think what you're all bringing up too about this fearlessness, Is that it's about role models and people that we have to look up to. And I think that we can sort of, for this Conversation sort of narrow that potentially to the design field because I think that's a little bit easier to talk about than culture as a whole. And I think that when we talk even now more about justice and equity and inclusion within the profession, this conversation about LGBTQI role models in architecture is one that isn't as, Present and vocal. And I always think of the example of in Chicago when we were starting our Alliance Network with AIA. I was asked, okay. Like, who should we invite to this 1st meeting? And I was speechless because I had no one That I could think of immediately because I had my little group of friends, but it was supposed to be about the community of architects. Thousands of people in a city, a metropolis that I felt comfortable being myself in. But even in that moment, I could not identify anyone else that I looked up to or that I saw as a peer, that we could invite into this Small group to get this thing started to become a community that was more visible.

A Do you have stories of role models you've, sort of gravitated towards, or is that still sort of the missing piece that's been part of your identity journey? That's a big one.

H Well, Ryan, you're it for me. Aw. It it is true. It is true that you were likely when did we meet? Like, 4

A 4 years ago?

H You were one of the first comfortably out people in architecture that I I think I officially met and had a relationship with. So what I'm learning is more the peer networks As opposed to seeking out those people, those connections have been pretty amazing. But yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm older, and it doesn't matter. My my younger my younger mentors have been the ones that have helped me Move beyond my my struggle and my my burden and feel significantly more comfortable in speaking out. And I I welcome the opportunity to open the door if I have to even though more younger people are opening it for me.

B Yeah. I can just add to that a little bit, that it really depends on what role model means. And this is something that I've always struggled with and The word mentor too. Also, I'm just like, what does mentor mean? It's like, does someone meet with me each month? Is it like a coach? Is it like, I reach out to them when I need help or something. And for me, it's, I feel like it's pretty it doesn't fit whatever Role model means, or what mentor means, you know? It's like I look up to so many different people and so many different Will have been, like, mother figures or father figures or parental figures, or teachers, like, even friends have been teachers, you know, like, peers who like, were peers who are younger than me can also be, teachers or people that I look up to. I think I gather kind of inspiration and guidance from a lot of different people, and I don't think of it as, Like, oh, it's like someone like I need to follow in the path of someone else's footsteps or anything like that. I see it more as like, oh, like Laura's doing her own thing. Like, public she she published a book.

B She's like she's done all these things. It's like, I don't have to necessarily publish a book or anything, but I can take, sort of, that inspiration of the strength and And the drive and the motivation to sort of do something different, and sort of run with it, in my own way. So yeah, I I totally understand that thing about, like, Not really knowing, like, who to invite because it's, like, for a panel discussion or something or for a keynote. It's, like, oh, you wanna get someone big or whatever. But it's, like, in my mind, it's, like, Everyone's opinion has weight and has meaning, and it's just it just depends on How you look at it and how you frame it and where where you're coming from.

I Yeah. I would agree with you, Eyal. Like, I think the The way that I approach role model and mentorship is somebody who has a skill or a A piece of their character or integrity, that I admire and aspire to and want to learn from. So From that, like, their role model to me in that in that specific facet. Right? So, like, you can have mentors for a variety of different things based on what you wanna learn. So that's how I've always approached it. But specific to, like, Texture in LGBTQIA role models. Like, there's a whole history that has either been written out or lost in a lot of instances.

I And our generation, perhaps the generation only slightly before us, is finally at a point where we feel comfortable Being who we are. Obviously, there are historical policy issues, that impact a person's ability to feel comfortable, Doing that. So I understand that. But, yeah, I mean, if even if you think of someone very specific like Like Eileen Gray, right? Like you, I had to really, really dig into her history and her background to find out that she was bisexual, Let alone, all of the work that she did that men took credit for, right? So there's so many intersections of oppression, in that single person's history who could be a role model if it was more clear what she, what she has accomplished. But because it is removed, it's something that makes it even harder for someone to find.

B Yeah. When I think of Role model, it's it's simultaneously there's, like, multiple definitions naturally, but one is The individual you identify with or feel similar to, and then there's the role models that just make you feel welcome and, like, That you can be vulnerable without being judged, and I think for me it's the latter that's Been more impactful. I think back I know I spoke about this in my introduction, but, like, the most Impactful moment so far in my identity journey was when I was pursuing a thesis in architecture school about gender expression in architecture and Even going into a thesis about gender and dispelling gender in an architectural institution It's something that most people just don't understand or don't see the value in and just overlook, and they're like, Okay, you can go do that weird thing in the corner. But my thesis advisor, Mary Lou R. Scott, was and still to this day is one of the most impactful and Beneficial people that I've ever met because she wasn't afraid to ask me questions that made me ask more questions. She was like, what if you forget that gravity exists? Or what if you put it on the moon? Or what if you melt it? And questions like that where I was Starting to feel like I wasn't weird enough? That was really a lovely experience for me, and it made me Feel like I could ask more questions and challenge things more, and I just really Value people that don't see everything as such a permanent statement, That when you ask a question, it doesn't imply anything afterwards. Maybe you're just trying to learn and trying to explore other people's opinions. And If we allow for that kind of dialogue as opposed to being like, Oh, what do you mean by that? Or What are you trying to do with, like, this political air? That We can really get farther.

B And that study wasI started that thesis for context in the fall of 2016. So not only was she motivating me to push further, but 2 months later I was shut down in a world where all of a sudden It became very prevalent to me that maybe we weren't making as much progress as I thought, or maybe there is this Large amount of homophobia and xenophobia and racism that is contradicting all of the voices that we are trying to uplift, and so that I think in that moment, I was more grateful for her than anyone else, and It's in those dark moments that we really need those mentors, and recognizing that today I think is really important.

H So something that is resonating with me as I hear you all talk about what role model may mean or may not mean as well as mentor is that I think and I I I I'm gonna presume that I'm understanding or interpreting what you're saying In a way, but for me, it sounds like a mentor, at least for me, and I can I maybe can hear it from you is somebody is comfortable owning Whatever it is that they choose to own in that moment, and in that confidence allows you to share control of whatever space you're you're building together, and not everybody is comfortable doing that? And it makes me wonder if because we have to share So much of our emotional energy all the time and trying to reconcile all of these things that we just end up being more comfortable sharing control, Owning the space and being confident in sharing that with other people and being looped in, And then a mentor just becomes somebody that kinda gives you the agency to do that because they're comfortable doing that too. And I think that for me, that kinda resonates with anything. It's not irrespective to design or or LGBTQ or what. It's just somebody that It's comfortable sharing space and air and then allows you to build yourself up along side of them. And I know a lot of you do that, and I I there's so much power in that. And I feel like, Yeah. Whether we define it as role model or mentor or whatever, I feel like it's somebody that allows you the space to build yourself up with their energy as well, And let everybody do that.

A I think that's a really great point, and it's sort of is a good segue to talk about Culture and to talk about firm culture. Because what what you're sort of illuminating, Giselle, and what I've sort of seen too is that Successful firms that have inclusive culture are the ones that are giving individuals the agency to be themselves. And growth is 1 piece of it. Excellence and whatever they're doing is 1 piece of it. But so what's the What's the advice for firm leaders that are struggling with this, or maybe are afraid of the lexicon that they don't know, or they're afraid of what they don't know, or people that are really doing it well that we should uplift and celebrate so that others can sort of use that as an excellent example.

H Yeah. Know, we should all celebrate all the time. That's why pride parades are so awesome. It's the one time, right, where we can build each other up and celebrate who we are. And, yeah, I I completely agree, Ryan. I think the firms that that are excelling in creating belonging, They they they afford the opportunity for everybody to celebrate whatever they wanna celebrate, however they wanna celebrate it, And build community around it. Right? If we all celebrate our uniqueness, then we're all celebrating together anything anyway. And I I do wish that more people would recognize the power in celebrating and uplifting and amplifying, because it allows other people to see themselves in that way as well.

H And I think a lot of us really struggle with identity. So if If we had the opportunity to celebrate all of our identities in whichever way makes us feel like allows us success, then we would we would all kind of do better. And I do think firms should own that a little bit. Well, I I think they should own it a a lot. But at least in this space, we should start ramping that up. But I think celebrating our people is really important and really fantastic.

I Yeah. I mean, I think too that there's a there's a hidden business metric in here too because if you can come to your work Wholly as yourself and comfortable. You're more efficient, you're more productive, you are more creative, especially in our field. And so a workplace that stifles that stifles your bottom line too.

A Totally agree, Laura. I think that's a really great point.

B When I think about culture and, how Firm leaders can cultivate, like, an atmosphere that is more welcoming and more open. That naturally leads me to, Like how to make something more inclusive? Inclusivity? Yeah, it's, it's one thing to be inclusive, but it's another thing To be actually accessible. And I think about that in terms of culture, in terms of, people feeling like they're belonging, or people feel like they actually have kind of like a stake in what's going on, in the firm. And I think part of accessibility is, what Giselle was saying, like having the ways to celebrate, having the ways to, build each other up and to really, like, be seen as who you are. I think it also comes out in the way that the firm is run and the way that, The way that people would communicate with each other, and the way that people work together. The way that I see that happening is like, I think culture is built up through all these little interactions that we have, and we can either be very intentional about it, or just kind of like let it Go the way that it's gonna go. I think that in order to be actually inclusive and actually to be accessible, there has to be a lot of intention Built into the way that we interact with each other. So, just in the same way that in architecture accessibility Is not like, not necessarily the first thing we think about and, there are codes and laws that kind of dictate it, in the same way, accessibility in culture may need that kind of intention as well.

B Maybe not like laws about what culture should be, but, definitely like of level ground where people are all on the same page. And, all on the same page about like, where the firm stands on things, and having tough conversations if it if it comes to that. I feel really lucky, because I The 1st job I got out of grad school was at a firm that was run by a cis women and all of my co workers were also cis women, so we were kind of on the same page without even talking about it, And I felt really lucky about that. And then, where I'm working right now at Ascendant Neighborhood Development, I think, like, 75% of the employees there are queer, so we're also kind of like on the same page without really talking about it. And so, that really makes me think like, what happens if we do talk about it. There's all these, like, there's all these things that we're on the same page about already that we should talk about, and if We ever grew to, to a bigger size that would kind of be, like, the conversations that we need to have.

A So I'm sort of hoping that there's someone that's listening that, you know, is hearing this and saying, Great. That all sounds really beautiful, and you're so fortunate to be in a space that is welcoming. There's work that goes into that. We didn't just stumble into this, I think. So that's one facet of the conversation. But For that same person that's saying, you know, how do I get there? What if I'm seeing something around me? How do I How do I address it if I'm not comfortable? How do how do you bring about that conversation and that change? And I think, It's a hard it's a hard thing, and I don't think that there's one right answer. I No conversations that I've had with Gizelle about this before has been sort of taking the questioning approach. If someone says something, just ask them a question about, What do you mean by that? Or can you say that again? I didn't quite understand you.

A To sort of put the, the burden on them Instead of on us to take responsibility for their actions. So, yeah. I'm just sort of interested to see what else everyone is sort of thinking.

B I can jump back in real quick. Just because this is like top of mind for me sometimes. My my main tactic is to find my allies, and to Talk talk it through, basically, to figure out who can back you up, like, even if you're not in the room, and like who's kind of feeling feeling a similar way, or sort of like just getting a read of the room. Because often, if if something is going on and it's affecting you negatively, it's probably affecting, like, your coworkers too, especially you all are in the same space or in the same firm and interacting with the same people and sort of operating under the same culture, I've found that, We're less alone than we think we are sometimes, and it and it is really difficult to take that first step sometimes. And often when I've taken that 1st step, I'd have to get like really angry first to the point where I'm like bursting and like I have to talk to someone about it. But I think once you find your allies and you find people who, like, are on the same page as you, suddenly you have support and suddenly you have this strength in numbers and knowing that you're not the only one alone in this, And it makes those difficult conversations that come afterwards a little bit easier. I'm really glad you brought up allies. I think that is so overlooked That just speaking and communicating what you're thinking can go so far, but even when you're in those conversations, for me, what's been most Helpful has been playing out different scenarios and timelines.

B Like, we can't predict everything, but just thinking through if I do this, If I speak my mind here, what's going to happen? What's what are the possible scenarios? What can happen? And by doing that, I've realized that most of my, Quote, unquote worst case scenarios are like being fired or being forced to leave. And I think what really Was an important thing that was told to me a few years ago was if you're fired from a job that isn't welcoming or inclusive to you. It's not where you belong, and it's probably not the right job for you. And so, really, what you're afraid of is that change or that new environment. But, really, it's going to be so positive in the long run, And it might teach them that, oh, they just lost an asset, that you are an asset, and they lost you because they weren't doing what they needed to do to make you feel comfortable.

H I think it's great to encourage everybody to kind of own their narrative and feel Like, they have the agency to, to act during an incidence of any kind whether you're an ally or not. But the reality is not everybody is equipped and has the the the energy and and the availability to do that. So I I love where, Amy, you're going and and where you were starting to To what what both of you were talking about, Eyal and Amy, that allies are so important, but also a firm and an organization needs to provide an outlet for people to find a way to own that kind of action in in whatever way feels right for them. Because I feel like a lot of the time, we put the onus on on the person that is either receiving the microaggression or Their leader, their immediate leader, and the potential of both of them, of anybody that's in the room to be ill equipped to have an appropriate conversation And to be able to mediate and facilitate, that's a that's a tall ask of a lot of people. We're we're not trained to do any of it. So I I feel like organizations need to provide tools for people to either learn how to develop those skills or provide third party support or or provide some kind of psychologically safe space Outside of that so that we can learn how to even tackle those issues. But that means creating a common language, creating the space, having everybody understand that we're gonna make mistakes And that everybody has to be comfortable with being challenged. And that's a that's a really kind of tall ask.

H So I I say that coming from a leader Or a JEDI justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion leader is that we need to recognize that we need to meet people where they are, and we also need to own that equity is a big thing. So we need to give people the the right tools for them to be successful, And that means many things for many different people. And it's hard to say a firm or an organization has to own that, but we do because society doesn't provide those those tools. So as Laura mentioned, this this goes back to her bottom line. If you build a firm around equity and providing people the tools that they need to succeed, then we will all succeed. But we can't presume that the person that receives the microaggression Has the agency to speak up for themselves and maybe not even their their their ally has the agency to do that. They may be able to speak about it and comfort each other and find opportunities to do that, but you need you need to equip leaders To really own that conversation and yeah. It means it means you have to be challenged and vulnerable, then you may have to go through training and a whole host of things, but it's ultimately for the greater good of all of us.

I I think that what some of this has shown, Just as a group conversation, as Eyal mentioned, the importance of allies, but also as Giselle mentioned, the importance of organization. And as slow as the big boat of AIA turns, the update to the code of ethics was a Was a piece. Right? Like 1.4 that says that you can't discriminate based on gender, gender or identity, or sexual orientation, Among a slew of other things can help kind of guide the conversation of those protections. Also like Giselle mentioned, like, if you don't have agency to bring that up, filing going to the full extent of filing an ethics complaint is a huge onus on the victim, but it doesn't have to hopefully go that far. Like, if you have an AI chapter that is part of your ally group, that can have those conversations with leaders in the organization. If you have allies who are perhaps, Peers or middle management. I mean, one of the biggest things that I learned is that once a manager knows about discrimination, they have a legal requirement to take action. But you have to be you have to feel comfortable having that conversation.

I And it's a lot harder to do in small firms than it is in big firms. It's a lot harder to do if there's not a structure for safety in that way. So there's a whole, like, Again, business side to what this looks like, that either creates a healthy workplace or doesn't in a variety of ways.

B I have a metaphor that I think probably more of a simile that will be helpful. So When we are thinking about firm culture, we're talking about architecture firms. We design for a living. So why are we not designing our culture the way we design our projects or thinking about it with a project delivery method mentality? I think we can start to apply this metaphor of, Oh, is our firm cultural project a design build? Is it a traditional project? Is it an integrated project, and what are the subsequent quality, speed, and price implications of that, Right? We we all understand that, oh, if we do a design build, it will be faster, but it might be a little bit more expensive, and the quality might not be as good as if we were to go slower. And so there's implications with how fast we try to make these changes as well, and so I think it's important to think about Time, this is not something you can develop overnight, this isn't something that you can change just yourself. There's a degree of risk that you Either need to accept or delegate, and those are all decisions that all have implications. And this is not a project that is a one off It's an ongoing kind of longitudinal project that might require post occupancy evaluations, and That can be through surveying your employees or providing opportunities for them to give you feedback so you can then go back to the drawing board. And so, I hope that that metaphor can start to make it a little bit more tangible for those that are thinking with that mindset.

B But just really at the core of it, it's Recognizing there's different ways to build culture, but that they're not easy and that they require a lot of decision making that needs to be collaborative.

A I think you raised a really good point, Amy, that, when you talk about inclusive culture, I think the, gut her initial reaction is we can find a quick solution and help adapt, And look, it's a one and done thing, and it's more about a habit of practicing an action, sort of going back to a lot of our earlier conversations. That and what you were saying, Amy, in your intro, it's relearning, societal standards that have been put on. So we're in this Long term process as a profession, as an organization, as A community and as sort of a larger global community, we're trying to relearn and take away, Or to remove and shed some of that bias that was present that doesn't fully represent the society that we are today or that we to be tomorrow. And I I always think back to sort of the lexicon in the language of Climate action. Over the last, you know, 50 years, that shared language about how we talk about The detrimental effects that we're having on the planet has grown tremendously, and you can just walk out onto the street and talk to someone about it. That's how much we've shifted the pendulum. That same shift needs to happen when we talk about equity, when we talk about LGBTQI people. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I'm always really fearful of, especially in the AIA when we're having these conversations, Is that the a always gets forgotten.

A The ally is always not a piece of it, and it feels very exclusionary that this conversation that we're having right now as a group of people is meant for others that identify with us, and that's not the case. The conversation is about creating a safe A holistic understanding of the society that we want to be of allowing people to be their best selves. And I think if we can start to shift that a little bit more, It's not that anyone's doing this intentionally to feel unwelcoming. I just think that there's a stigma there. And we really have to work To remove the stigma so that allies are there present and available to help share some of this burden because it isn't just on us, and it can't be. Yizel, there was, a quote that I wrote down from you from, an AI Austin Pride event that I thought was really Sort of potent, and you said that architects are advocates for building, belonging, and dignity. Can you share a little bit more about that?

H Well, something that I've been struggling with, and maybe because for better or worse, I'm part of so many conversations like this Lately, that that I've been I've been hearing a lot about the discrepancy Between the architecture model being taught as the European model, versus What I knew and learned as architecture when I when I started environmental design in Puerto Rico, which was about community building. So my my thought about my definition of architect has always been convener, collaborator, Community, assistant person. A leader that is able to take all of these thoughts and ideas And build them up into something that creates something bigger for community, that builds belonging, and ideally builds dignity for the people that are part of that community. And that is unfortunately, and this is my experience, I don't wanna say everything's monolithic. My experience was significantly different when I shifted to the United States to do to do grad school, to go to grad school. All of a sudden, the definition of an architect was this person that had the ability, in isolation, To create this innovative, amazing thing that is transformative, whether It included community, other people, acknowledgement of context. It could be all of the above or nothing. And it still was defined as architecture.

H And I've known that in my mind and I've known that through my experiences, but I didn't have the language To talk about it until recently when I was having a a conversation pre panel with Gabrielle Bullock, and we were talking about architecture and the struggle in academia. And all of a sudden, we kinda came together and we're like, well, this is kind of European model where you study something very specific about the European, Architecture, European civilizations, you'll you'll learn about the international movement which is pristine box somewhere place. It doesn't really matter, what that seeing is or context. And that was so foreign for me that even that made me feel even more like the other. And and to me, I would love to redefine or reclaim architect As the person that is a true convener because we have the ability to listen. We have the ability to hear. We have the ability to share, control, and space and build something for other people with them and not for them, all the time. So when I was talking about that, I was reacting to What is now, at least for me, something that I'm learning, that may resonate for other people.

H I know not all architecture schools I teach under the same kind of model, but I also recognize that the ones that are elevated the highest Tend to resonate similarly, and don't necessarily think about architecture at this very contextual, Very, sustainable, resilient, adaptable, and equitable thing. And that's sort of what I was resonating to that because that also speaks to my otherness and and my own struggle with finding my place And the responsibility then then I have to own to be visible, but also be visible for other people. So, yeah, I would love to reclaim architect And just say we're we're really advocates and conveners and leaders of community, which I think for for some people, it may not seem mean the same thing, but that's what it means to me.

A Eyal, you like to call yourself a spacemaker. And I think that that's a really, great way to the work that you do and the way that you view designs. So sort of in tandem with, Yisel's sort of description of where she sees herself and where she wants to define architecture. How do you define Spacemaker in the work that you do?

B Yeah. I see spacemaker as, not just designing physical spaces, but also about designing those, like, intangible, like, community spaces and, different cultural practices. I think about this in terms of, opening up discussions for things that aren't Talked about a lot. When the Me Too stuff came out, I helped facilitate some conversations with the architecture lobby That created this space that hadn't existed before, even though people had talked about, inequities in terms of, the experience the experiences that women have versus the experiences that men have, it's like no one had been talking about sexual harassment. And sort Making that space, I feel like is part of, the practice of, of this space making, not just not just, like, building an actual space, but like, Building, like, the space where that can be held and that can be discussed. I think that's an important part of my practice because Space is both this, like, very physical, extremely physical thing, and this extremely Intangible, very hard to describe thing, and it's really just a feeling.

I Yeah. I think it gets back to, the idea of project 2. So, the best project there is is welcoming to all people, and the best project team has that in their mind. Like, I can't Hardly think of an instance where the only person using a space would be a cis hetero white male. So if that's the only thought process that's coming to the design of a project, how many people are you potentially excluding in the use of that Space just because you aren't thinking about them. So what does that mean when you then also give A young employee or a coworker or middle management, like, when you give that person the agency to have their voice heard at the design table, It then has a positive trickle effect to an end user. I don't know what all that looks like from an organizational accept that, like, we need to continue to hear more voices at the table, which means we need to make more space.

B I'm just loving What everybody is contributing and especially with regards to how we design I I love that we're even talking about labels right now and how AL calls themselves a, like, space creator. Was that it? Space creator? And just that we have to cultivate new vocabulary for who we are and what we are. I don't know, I'm just sitting here thinking about this tendency to Try and define ourselves and where that comes from and because the vocabulary we're given isn't helpful. And that maybe it is a matter of creating a whole new set of terms and redefining the basis of design and The language we use to design and the metrics we use to quantify the success of our design. I know, currently, My role, I'm an socio spatial designer, and that is a name that most people ask me what it means. And I love that Because I have to explain that it's the intersection of social variables and spatial variables, and it automatically makes people think about it a little bit more. And so there is power in making new words, and there's power in teaching people things through terminology. And so that's just where I'm kind of sitting over here thinking about that.

B I think if I were to add one other thing about Just the way in which we design, I just really want to talk about the fact that we haven't acknowledged that what makes some people comfortable Makes others uncomfortable, and I use other intentionally there that we can't ubiquitously define comfort. There will always be variation, and so sometimes if we are uncomfortable or if we're trying to be comfortable and it's difficult, We need to acknowledge that those around us might need a little help getting there, might need help in recognizing how to make you comfortable, and that it's a journey for everyone. And so, I just really want to make sure that we're not looking at this through that isolated lens of how do I get ahead, and always recognizing there's other people that are around us that need to be included as well.

A Really excellent point. And I think that, when we're talking as, sort of the minority voice, That's the tendency, to sort of forget the other part of the conversation because it's all about lifting a little bit off of our shoulders, to help uplift each other. And that at least, especially when we're talking about design and architecture, There are, as Eyal was saying, very physical manifestations of the work that we do. And that is, of consequence sometimes and also great opportunity, to be challenging, to be comfortable, and be uncomfortable, potentially all at the same time. So I think we're sort of getting close to wrapping up. Laura, I sort of wanted to go around the room, but we'll start with you. So for our listeners that are inspired and fired up, what's next? Like, where do we how do we take this conversation forward?

I I think that the the next part is to keep having conversations like this and also keep Living into this through action. To keep kind of sitting in the quiet and listening when when something bothers you, like, Take a moment to figure out why. Because I I would say that the one thing I would add to Amy's comment is that it's important to understand the comfort of everyone. But it's also super important and something that I've learned at least personally through my journey that You not sacrifice yourself for the benefit of someone else's comfort. So I think that what that means in next steps is that When we think about what what comfort and what space means and we have these conversations, we have to come to it from a From a place of vulnerability and from a place of communal growth because we have to know that we're not always gonna get it right. And As we were saying, like, terminology changes. And we we are in a profession that requires constant learning. Yeah.

I It's a hard continual growth that just happened has to happen over the entirety of a lifetime.

A Yacelle, I'm fired up And inspired. What's next?

H I think having more conversations, having great conveners that create the platforms for these things to happen is also really important. So I would like to Thank Evelyn and and Jin because these things are these things can happen because You create the space for them. So owning the opportunity to share in the space when it is created, Being comfortable with visibility, although it it is a process, it is very much a process. Thank you for highlighting that. It is a it is a growth continual process that never ends. I completely agree. But also owning the opportunity. If you have the agency and if you Have the platform, own it.

H Be visible. Be vocal because there are people that are listening and there are people that need to hear what you have to say because every story is worth being told. And sometimes we forget that. We forget that, whatever we are going through is valid. It is important, and it is worth being told.

A That was good too. So, Eyal and Amy, good luck with adding more to that.

B I can I can piggyback Off of that, I think, I wanna make sure that people know that, there is there's enough space for everyone? Like like when we're talking about creating the space like, we are making the space as we're speaking, and as we are showing up. And it is nowhere near finished. It's really just beginning. And I think that the more voices that we can have in the space, The better, and I think the more, inclusivity we'll have, and the more discussions we'll have about accessibility. And The the more, like, the more robust of a community we can build together.

A Amy?

H I'm

B gonna start just going back Because I don't know if Laura saw it in my face when, she said that not to Belittle our own comfort, that was, like, a, very, very big crux of mine or difficult Thing in my life personally that I always overlook my own comfort, and so that's a personal challenge of mine. And so I think I just really appreciate having so many voices on this call and showing the value of not doing it alone and working through it with A community that does approach problems in different ways and can call you out when you are, falling into an abyss of your own Doing or when you need to be shown a different path or just doing things differently. And but at the same time, I think what I would suggest all the listeners to do and something that I try to do consciously is During your day to day life, when you're working or designing and assuming most listeners are in an architecture architecture adjacent field, When you're doing your work, if you find yourself checking out mentally because you're doing a repetitive activity or you're just doing things the way you've always done, Catch yourself in those moments. Stop and ask yourself why you're doing everything the same way, and maybe you can start to adapt change or do something differently because that's a way in which we can train ourselves to be ready for a different approach and to Be more adaptable. We can catch ourselves when we're getting too comfortable in the ways in which we operate. And I think We need to grow in order to become open to others and be inclusive. We can't just say it. We have to actually, like change ourselves in order to change our surroundings, right? So I I would suggest to just Pay close attention to what you do and how you do it and how it's and what the implications and reactions are from there.

B How other people are responding. And, basically, don't take any day problem or interaction lightly because they're all Opportunities to learn and grow.

A Well, thank you all for being so raw, Honest and forgiving us your emotional labor. You are each an inspiration. Thank you. I'm not crying. You're crying. I do wanna just end by saying that there's a really great article on aia.org that's Titled what's it like for architects to identify as LGBTQI plus? And Julia Ordara ends the article by saying, If nothing else, if just being visible and being who I am can help other people to see that there's a space for LGBTQI plus people in our architecture, That's a good thing. We are better when we have more voices in the room.

C I really have a hard Time knowing what to say after these conversations. Because a part of me always feels guilty for how I've always Identified and how I carry myself, not knowing that there are other individuals, Many who are actually very close friends that have another layer that they deal with daily that I can't even begin to comprehend.

D I'm hoping that these conversations through the series will open the door for someone for real conversation, Either someone who's not familiar with these conversations and they're learning or someone who Maybe experiencing this and need to feel empowered. We want our audience to meet these talented leaders because they're Such strong advocates for architecture and equity, and they deserve to be known. One thing that

C I have taken for granted, and, Janine, I'd love to get your Your perspective on this is that so much of my extended family, especially here in California, include Members from these groups. Right? We've had family dinners with them. They've helped furnish My nursery when I was having my first child, that he never really stopped to think about everything else they were or are managing through in their life relative to this topic, that makes it that much harder for them.

D Yeah. That's true. I mean, I think you and I are lucky because we are part of a adopted family that has, Brought us into, you know, a really loving, community of people that care about each other. And, You know, in my effort to be an advocate no more, I'm I'm still really limited on what I can possibly know, and I've I've just not had to walk that journey. And even though I stand with my friends and my adopted family, there's always gonna be things that I'm not fully versed on. However, I really try to do my best to keep learning and listening and trying to show up.

C Yeah. And I think The idea of showing up is is really interesting in this conversation. Because one thing that really struck me is that in Some cases, when it comes to this community, it's just a more it's a more hidden attribute of diversity. And it doesn't really get directly addressed With clients or coworkers or any new person they meet, unless I or you Or the potential clients or coworkers create the space for them to talk about it, or that person, that individual feels comfortable enough to create their own space to tell their story.

D That's a good point, Evelyn. And one thing that really stood out to me in this conversation was The fact that in many conversations, they have to reaffirm this about themselves to people that they know or don't know, That it's something that, they even have to discuss, which was very insightful to me. Like, why does it even matter? Why do I even need to tell you this? And if these conversations make you uncomfortable, I hope that this is a starting place where you can find Some room for empathy and some space to understand that the person on the other side of the conversation may very well feel the Same sense of caution or anxiety that you're feeling with their interaction. For them, it might be, How will you receive this information? What will you do with this information? And does it even matter that you know this information?

C And then also, in terms of looking at what we can do to be more supportive of this community, I realized in reading Everyone's bios. That one simple thing that we can do that actually Slack has implemented in all of our presentations when speakers introduce themselves is to welcome the use of pronouns behind people's names. So I think It it seemed like a very simple thing to implement, and for us, that is, because it it's not a big deal for us. But I I realized that it may be a big deal for some firms.

D Yeah. And whether or not this is a conversation you're willing to have in your firm yet, It's definitely, you know, a conversation worth starting to talk about and deciding how you wanna communicate and show up around Any issues related to the LGBTQIA plus community. You know, one example I was telling Evelyn offline is that, We were submitting on a proposal, and the cover letter included, dear miss So and so to the client. And I kinda pushed back on that to to get rid of the pronoun because or the qualifier because You never know. You don't know who your client is, and that's something that's changing in this world that we live in and in the workplace. These conversations are more commonplace, and you can assume. So one place that you might discuss is the use of pronouns. By opening up these conversations, it ultimately allows more space for people who work for you to bring their whole self to the work environment because They know they can be truly authentic and be true to themselves without being judged.

D And if they're your client, That's all the more reason to have a viewpoint about this.

C And on that note, thank you for listening, and please tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice disrupted.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, You can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you're and hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.