Building Culture

A Hey. This is Eric with 30 by 40 Design Workshop with a heads up that all of my content will be streaming on Gable Media. Starting October 7th, can head on over to gablemedia.com/video to check it out.

B Hi, everyone. My name is Steven, and I am the creator of Show It Better. And I'm glad to announce that Show Better is now streaming on Gable Media. Visit gablemedia.com/video to catch up on our full catalog.

C I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how

D the industry is changing. Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners. So we've had a running theme around culture in our 1st season, And that's actually what made me think about bringing in these next guests.

D So our next guests are Anne Forman and Seth Mann, and they are the cofounders behind a consultancy called At Your Core. Anne and I first crossed paths in business school at UCLA Anderson. And then later, we had both since migrated up into the Bay Area. And later when Anne was in the process of forming At Your Core, she reached out to me Because we were doing we're both looking at doing interesting work around the culture. Mine was more focused on the overall workplace experience and how it is influenced and influences culture. And hers is more specific about how you define from the very beginning what that culture is. So I initially invited Anne and Steph to come on to a panel with me over at human scale that was called creating place, The ergonomics of culture. And their conversation was so well received at that event that actually one of the architecture firms in attendance ended up Hiring them.

D They were actually very eager to connect and hire with them. So not only, you know, do they do with other groups, they actually have an architecture firm in their portfolio, which makes them, I feel, even more relevant.

C So some of you might be asking yourself, so what? Why is culture important? And, you know, we've touched on this several times throughout the season. And I just wanna reiterate, at its core, culture is important because organizations are made up of people. And as a business that relies on people, staff, trading their time and knowledge on client projects, The well-being of the staff is paramount and culture supports retention and also it supports leadership development of rising talent as well as attracts Future employees and clients. So we're hoping that this conversation will expand on many of those topics.

D Yes. So let's just go ahead and jump into the bios. Anne Forman. Anne is a cross functional values oriented business leader who thrives when facilitating a team And simplifying and solving complex problems. She has worked for major companies, including Method and Mattel, managing large brands, Budgets and teams as well as go to market plans for startups with limited resources. She flexes from strategic to tactical to impact company values and operating principles.

C And Steph Mann. Steph is focused on strategic marketing, innovation, and people leadership with 15 years of experience in brand marketing, General management and management consulting. She's delivered profitable growth brands while focusing on people and strategic choices. She is a change agent determined to improve organizational culture and team effectiveness.

D A little bit about At Your Core. So after 10 plus years of managing brands, being general managers of business, and leading cross functional teams, Anne and Steph Founded culture consultancy At Your Core to put culture and specifically values at the forefront. At Your Core Helps elevate teams and people by creating connections, driving alignment, and increasing engagement, a source of great joy and inspiration for them. Let's cut to the interview.

E So I'm Steph, and that is Anne over there, and we are former business leaders who are self Preclaimed culture enthusiasts. So we both spent the majority of our careers in marketing and general management roles at both big and Small companies. And we actually met at Method. I don't know if you folks who are listening know the Cool Design Natural Cleaning Soap Company, But there, I was running the personal care business and Anne was running the home care business. And we saw firsthand the difference in engagement and company performance That comes when employees feel the sense of purpose with clear alignment and connection to a company mission and vision. So we founded At Your Core so we could Actually help more teams and more organizations versus just the company with which we were at. And we really wanted to put values at the forefront. So our primary offering is really to define and activate core values across the entire employee experience.

E We do other, you know, huge range of Employee experience programming, like running leadership and team workshops, designing and leading training, doing employer branding projects. But in a nutshell, what we really love to do is get to know companies through and through and get to know the people that make those companies so special. So in general, just to know a little bit about our process, we always believe that it's so important to start with discovery, Really getting input from all levels and functions. Then we conduct interactive and iterative workshops and develop engaging role and implementation Strategies. So through this phased approach, we really feel like we're part of the organization and that's really what excites Anne and I so much. Like we feel like we are employees and we're really helping thing to champion what makes this company so special and codify what will support successful business

C So I'm glad that you're talking about culture from a organizational standpoint. I wanted to ask You to dive deeper a little bit into why it's important to define core values and behaviors within an organization?

F Absolutely. So, you know, it's really about clarity, core values with clear supporting behaviors. What they do is that provides employees with a kind of guide of what's expected and celebrated in an organization. So, essentially, core values And behavior is really let employees know how they should show up every day. And we believe that in order to be effective, values really have to be authentic. When you're defining them, they should really represent those, actions that are imperative to a company's success. So truly capturing what we would call kind of like the The secret sauce of an organization. The other thing is values can become just a really great tool, helping everyone to navigate conflict, guiding decision making at all levels in the organization, and they can be used to hold each other accountable.

F So codifying really how to work. But there's sometimes a disconnect with organizations if they define values, but don't take the step to also defining those underlying behaviors. So the great thing about behaviors versus a general theme of saying, like, you know, we value innovation, Is that when you get to the level of behaviors, suddenly they are actionable and observable. So they create a shared understanding of what that value really looks Like in action. There's, kind of this great Dilbert cartoon that we sometimes use to illustrate the importance of defining behaviors. I know the audience, you're not gonna be able to see it, but it's short. So I'm gonna do my best to to quickly explain it just to give you a little bit of an illustration of what we mean. So imagine that the boss, You know, the infamous Dilbert boss is saying, I want you to think like entrepreneurs.

F To which Dilbert responds, should we should we take huge risks? And the boss says, no. The stockholders would hate that. And then Dilbert's coworker tries another angle, and she says, should we act as though we have no boss? And to that, the boss replies, no, that would be chaos. Right? So clearly picking a theme like entrepreneurial as a a value for the organization is not sufficient. So we like to use this cartoon because it points to just how easy it is to misinterpret values when they're not supported by clearly defined behaviors.

C That's a really good point.

E Just to add on to that, I think, you know, arming everyone in the organization with clarity so that they know what's expected of them and what they can expect of their coworkers. Behaviors provide kind of a common language to talk about actions that are both productive, but then also detracting From the goals of the organization or culture. So it actually makes giving feedback a lot easier because of the shared language. The other nuance that we often help to define for organizations are actually explicit misguided behaviors. So these are often the shadow side of a behavior or what happens if Someone takes the behavior too far or even weaponizes it. So an example of that is, you know, a company we worked with had A behavior of get it done, which was really meant to empower everyone to act and reinforce their agency and be proactive, but it actually necessitated a misguided behavior that was expecting heroics because it wasn't about pulling all nighters and they didn't wanna celebrate People, you know, doing things last minute. And so it was really important to kind of put that shadow side that they want people to be proactive and take agency, But in a well planned, thoughtful manner and still prioritizing their work effectively.

C Listening to you both, what I'm hearing is Reminding me of what happens so commonly in organizations where leaders in charge, they either become they're too busy to define The culture, or they think that the culture is obvious based on the language that they're putting out. But what I'm really appreciating about what you're saying is that language is nuanced, and so when you set different goals as a leader for your team, it doesn't always translate for the individuals who are part of the team. So you there's like a there's a little bit extra effort that has to happen in order to really To really be clear, and I and I like the way that you guys are talking about behaviors as a way to frame that. I also wanna go

D a little bit deeper on behaviors, and I I've been realizing this a lot more having 2 little ones too. You know, you're always told that you need to behave well growing up. Like, So I think some of our audience may and and this has actually come to my attention also in the workplace when we Talk about altering behaviors. You know, how do you do so or deliver that message in a in a positive way, so it's not, like, Necessarily, oh, you know, a word that we've always had positive associations around, if that makes sense.

F Absolutely. So I think, you know, the the really cool thing when we do this with organizations, you know, I mentioned before, we always want these to be authentic to the organization. So Sometimes when you look at what's happening in organization and really are trying to think about where you wanna go, you Probably or may not be there, but there are moments where you're there. And there are things you can point to of when things are working really well. It's not unlike, Anytime you wanna change behavior, you have to catch it in the act and then talk about it, name it, and reward it. Right? So if you are developing, new values and behaviors, you can point to this moment, When somebody on the finance team did something, somebody, you know, on the the drafting team for this, building project did a certain thing. Right? And that action that they took resulted in something that moved the business forward, that moved the team forward. And doing that storytelling and letting everybody Hear what it looks like to really live your values.

F What are those behaviors that your coworkers are already doing that you are already doing? Right? How do you think about, oh, I can repeat that. I can keep that going. Right? So it's a matter of really calling out those good moments, and that's how you give people, You know, the language and you help them to also be able to, you know, bear witness to it when it's happening.

E The way to go about making sure that everyone's Aligned on what those values are, are to really engage the whole organization and not just the rollout of the values, but continually reengaging them On a day to day, weekly, and, you know, even quarterly basis. And a big way that we recommend that organizations do that is What Anne mentioned before, which is through storytelling. So the best way to truly understand the behavior is to understand what it looks like in action when done right. And so if companies can create and maintain a story bank of when they've seen behaviors, not just again in the like big company moments, but what are some of the day to day examples of behaviors, it helps to really educate every single employee to make sure they're on the same page.

D You know, it's it's one thing to kind of have those moments to point to. But as, like, a new entrepreneur starting a new firm, then How do you go about setting behaviors that have yet to happen or have yet That you don't have examples to pull from, and and how important is it really to set those core values up Friends? Definitely, I feel like the architecture world is filled with a lot of artists, and they like to kind of Say, well, we want our culture to grow organically. So so what do you tell those individuals? And then, you know, specifically, What do you tell the new people or the people looking to really be entrepreneurial and go out on their own about the necessity for creating those core values at the forefront?

E Great question. I think, you know, there is truth to saying culture should grow organically, but we also recommend putting some Foundational elements in place that help guide the expression of the company. Ultimately a founder or founding team will have some ideas of what it's gonna take to be successful. That might just be in the short term. So, you know, if we're working with founders and it's about kind of setting those preliminary kind of fundamental ideas, There's more of like a visioning exercise of where do you wanna be in 6 months? Where do you wanna be in a year? What do we think is gonna be required of the team to get there? They can also reflect back on past experiences at other jobs because likely they still have seen when things have worked really well or not, and oftentimes Entrepreneurs or serial entrepreneurs and have some experience with the which to draw on so they know what they wanna take from past experience and what they wanna kind of leave behind. But those values may evolve and change. And so it's important to revisit, you know, whether it's a year later, a couple years later, as you scale to say, are those still the right ones? But really like starting with kind of articulated vision, mission, values help set expectations and the tone For the company, for those first members, and it, you know, then it's up to every single employee to participate and influence the culture, But it is important to shape it in some ways. We found that when organizations are small, the culture and inherent values flow from the founder For the founding team, and it does come a little bit naturally to them.

E So it doesn't require a ton of pulling out, but we still wanna help them be really choiceful about what they're articulating. However, as organizations grow and add layers, things become less clear, and that's when it's even more important to codify values. Otherwise, you see a lot of confusion sometimes even disengagement.

C I think that's really where I see in our industry, A lot of challenges for firms that have grown, and then they have a lot of employees, and they're suddenly, they're bigger than they've ever been. How in that kind of a organization, how do you help groups that have that many people and that many voices find A unified culture that they can work within.

F So I'd say this goes to kind of our day in and day out process. You know, we deal with companies From, you know, small and mid size to quite large organizations. And it's about, both Tops down and bottoms up to find what is the culture. You know, everybody is the culture. Right? The culture is not 1 person. It's not 1 leader even. Everybody contributes to the culture every day when they show up, and it's shaped by everyone. So when we're really Digging in with a company to define those authentic values and behaviors, but that are going to push the company in the direction that they want, They're going to create this positive and productive culture, that everybody's gonna feel good about.

F And, again, that's gonna move the business in the direction they wanna go. You really have to get inputs from everybody. And we always find it's helpful to really engage with people and to ask them, This is your company too. What do you want this to feel like? What do you what do you wanna give to this company? You know? And And help them understand that they do have agency, that they, you know, are participating every day, and they have the choice over how they act At work. They have the choice over their behaviors. So, you know, helping them to see that they can change things in a positive direction, goes a really long way, and giving them an opportunity to input and to think about, you know, what are the things that they would like to also see from their coworkers, and having it be a shared experience. So, you know, as we go through the development process, we spend a lot of time in the discovery phase Talking to all functions, all levels in an organization, and giving everybody the chance to input. Then we go into kind of this Workshopping phase where we take a cross functional group again and usually a a lot of folks on the leadership team as well.

F But we really want to pull out those themes and those areas that we've heard from all the different groups. You know, you talked about trying to find commonalities. That's, you know, that's a 100% of what we do. We try to say we heard this over here and over here and over here. And what might that actually mean? What's kind of the bigger theme? And then how do we then break it back down into, again, those defined behaviors so that it's really clear to everybody what it looks like? You know? And and If you were to do that and people were to behave that way consistently, what would that really would that meet your business objectives? And what would that unlock for your organization And if really everybody showed up like that every single day. Right? So we kind of we take this approach of gathering inputs from everybody, Workshopping, iterating, and coming back with, hey. Does this feel like this is the these are the things that are going to get you where you wanna go and result in an environment of where you would really like to be. So that's kinda the way that we approach making sure that we can find those commonalities with all different groups they grow.

D So in architecture firms, people find themselves, I feel, in a place where they don't Feel like they actually have a lot of agency. Like, there's a lot of behaviors that they would like to see out of leadership, and maybe it's Some were, in fact, even spelled out in a core value somewhere. I don't know in the employee handbook. So so what, Do you have any recommendations for the individuals that kind of feel feel stuck, And who have a voice of what they might be able to do to to influence leadership?

E Yeah, I think that's a great question. Part, one of the ways that we try and hear from every employee is by Custom creating culture surveys for each specific company so that we can adjust the questions for the needs for the company. But in general, we always wanna provide every employee to Say like, what's working really well? What do you want to see continued? And what behaviors do you want to see changed? And like, what do you want the culture to look like in the future? And doing that anonymously actually allows those employees who feel like maybe they haven't had a voice before or they're afraid to point out maybe negative behaviors of the leadership Team to kind of put it all out there and we're leading every single debate, you know, like we take that really seriously. And we reflect that back when we're summarizing, you know, our discovery findings to leadership. We talk about what makes the company great. We talk about what makes it really challenging and highlight what behaviors have been called out. And then we work on and focus on The opportunities in the future. So that's definitely one element, in one place for them to have a voice.

E They're also, as Anne said, in the workshop approach, we have a cross functional team and oftentimes leaders that are identifying Kind of culture champions, people who really want to play an active role, and we try and bring that those people into the process early on. We can't have everyone on a workshop team. So we say, you know, if there's all these people who really want to have a say and influence the culture, The hardest part and like where the real work begins is not in the development or articulation of the values. It's in the activation and implementation. It's about bringing those values and behaviors to life across the employee experience and that's where we need those people. We need those people who actually care to sign up For initiatives to help with onboarding, you know, to help with recognition programs, to model those behaviors day in and day out. And so I think there's a ton of opportunities. And if someone, you know, comes and says, you know, I really care, then put them to work.

E You know, the last thing you want is the employee who says they care, but they don't wanna act. We want to really encourage those people to kind of take action. And as Anne said, they have agency and they have a real, you know, potential to make a big impact. And,

F Evelyn, I would I would add on to, because I think if I understood your question, it's also about, You know, a company that is sort of blind perhaps to what's going on or doesn't isn't already thinking about doing this. So, You know, that can be a tricky spot. You know, I think we would all acknowledge that that is a tricky spot. There are certainly a number of Hard and fast facts that we use in terms of the, business results that you get when you have engaged employees. Right? So, you know, we could put some of those perhaps in the in the comments, of the podcast and people can point to some of those to their leadership or Or ask, if there was an appetite for doing an employee engagement survey. Like Steph was was kind of mentioning, we do our own custom, version, but there are lots of companies out there that do standard employee engagement surveys, make it very turnkey for the organization. So it's not a heavy lift. But I would encourage employees who are feeling, you know, disengaged or, like, the culture is headed in a direction that they they don't want it To head in, talk to whomever is in HR, ask if the company's thought about doing an engagement survey as sort of a starting point just to get a baseline.

F You know, like, how do we start? We use employee engagement surveys because we wanna track where you're going over time and see if you're going in a positive or negative direction and be able to kinda nip things in the bud As they're happening. So, that helps to give a pulse of how the organization is feeling at any time. And for any leaders that are listening, please don't be afraid of information. You know, I think some leaders are hesitant to do these types of things because they're if it's their company and they feel Responsible. They sort of would rather not hear it. So, you know, the only thing that's gonna happen from hearing it is you have the opportunity then to act. You have the opportunity to make your workplace a better and, you know, more meaningful experience for all of your employees. So, You know, not knowing is is not going to help you.

F You know, you have to know what you're facing so that you can figure out, you know, what are the ways that you can start Making some real change and, you know, you don't wanna lose people because turnover is a real cost. And again, we can give you the some of those facts and figures to put in the in the notes here.

C I'm glad you brought up turnover because we've talked previously in episodes that that is a really big, part of why not keeping your staff Happy and engaged leads to people leaving, you know, owners put a lot of energy and time and money into Hiring someone to come on and train them to be a part of their team, and when they leave in 2 years, that can be really disappointing for the firm leadership. I know it's equally hard as a leader to receive feedback about where you're struggling as a leader or where your leadership isn't coming across the way that you might hope. We've hinted at some of the struggles that I think we were starting to address specific to our industry, but we're curious, For the organizations that hire you, where are the typical areas that they struggle or what have you seen?

F So I think, again, we have chatted about a few of them, but kind of, I would say, probably scaling culture is one that we see time and time again. You know, we were this size. It was humming. Now we've sort of experienced this Great growth, which is awesome. How do we bring our culture along with us? How do we make sure as we are onboarding more and more people, we're investing time in the right things, because we can't beat a 1000000 places at once. So how do we really codify things so that we can scale our culture in a way that's kinda turnkey, but also really intentional, as we're growing. The second one that I think we talked about also a little bit is on pressure testing values. You know, if you start and you do codify your values early, you're ahead of the game.

F However, you know, again, as you grow, they may be irrelevant or not as relevant as they once were, or the culture may have shifted or the business dynamics may have shifted. So, you know, we come in a lot and help organizations understand, Are these still the right things, and do they have those behaviors that are gonna make it really clear for folks, moving forward? And I would say, probably a 3rd one is, that we get a lot is around new leadership teams that need to build trust and connection or figure out ways that they personally can also model the values. We've actually been getting this one a lot since kind of the time of COVID. May not all be new teams, But all teams are certainly operating in new ways right now, ways they've never done before. They have to figure out how do I lead in a remote environment? How do I really How do we work together as a team in this remote environment and make things very clear for, everybody that's depending on us? So, you know, we've helped a lot of groups sort of find what we call kinda operating principles. So these are specific agreements that they're gonna hold themselves accountable to. And we use this type of process not just to provide clarity for that team, but also to strengthen connections between the group. So people are starved for connection right now.

F Zoom, is somewhat lacking. It's an amazing tool, but, you know, it doesn't provide everything that that you need. And these types of, workshops and the way that we're working with Either leadership teams or any teams, are really helping to build trust among groups.

D As we talk about Kind of employee retention, but also employee attraction. And I I would think, you know, there's a there's a lot of things being published Publicly about core values, especially around equity these days. So how important is it for organizations to kind of Put a stick in the ground, you know, call it what you will, and say these are our core values. Especially as you just mentioned that the core values can change over time. Should they should they be scared about putting it out there, or does it actually reflect negatively or positively On potential clients, and what could that mean for, like, future employees too?

E Great question. So I think, you know, the first question of like, is it important to share your values with employees? If you are, you know, in a period of Rapid, growth, and you are recruiting a lot. It is really important to recruit the right people, right? The cost of the wrong hire Is significant, both in terms of turnover or productivity, whatnot. So we believe it's really important to share with candidates or, You know, potential future employees, because it can really be used as a recruiting tool and a big part of your employer brand of how you attract talent in the 1st place. So we suggest companies share their values proactively with candidates before interviews, and also publish them on their career pages. That way candidates also have an opportunity to assess if your company is the right fit for them and if they see alignment with and are inspired by your values. So it's actually a really helpful early screening mechanism because if they're not connected, they may not apply and so you're stating yourself that Hire, right? Or all the time to interview or potentially hire them. It also, provides a really powerful tool in the interview process.

E We actually help clients to define and design questions that assess for value fit versus culture fit, which we feel like can inadvertently reinforce bias. If you ask questions that kind of try and pull out those core behaviors and then train interviewers for what are the things to listen for That would cue whether or not they really do share that value and that they've proven that they have behaved that way in the past and are in alignment. That is a much better way to like interview to make sure that they're gonna positively impact your culture. So it's about value fit versus culture fit. Then to answer your question about, you know, potential clients, or customers, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting. It's, It provides a way for a potential customer or client to have a better understanding of your company. Right? They can feel a deeper connection to, or appreciation, for what you do, which may increase their willingness to engage or partner with your organization. So I think that that can help, But it's more important to share it with potential future employees and candidates.

E And then to answer the 2nd part of the question, which is about company Size and do you change it over time? I think, you know, if a company is really, really small, I think during the Interview process, the founder is going to be the person interviewing and sharing that back and that candidates can really feel that from the start. It's really as the company scales and you're starting to recruit more that it becomes really important to publish and share those. And then I don't think Anyone should be afraid of changing values over time as long as you're transparent about how it's gonna set you up for success, the learnings you've had. I mean, it, you know, as I think about companies I've worked for in the past, wow, if they were that transparent about the learnings that they have and what's working and what's not, That would actually, you know, be far more appealing than someone that didn't share it at all, right? It's like they really care and they're making an effort and they're willing to look at things that haven't worked in the past and changed things going forward.

C Maybe we should dive a little bit deeper into the, COVID nineteen situation and talk about the pandemic because I'm I'm glad that you mentioned that it's impacted some of the work that you're doing. Tell us more about how it's Changed your business, and then I know our listeners are gonna be very eager to hear any words of wisdom you can share from your expertise in in talking about that with your clients.

F Absolutely. So, you know, it it's been an interesting journey over the course of whenever it was in kinda March till till now. And I think we've seen a a doubling down on culture, actually. So at this point, we're seeing people having the desire to either revisit or recommit or figure out new ways to activate their values faced with the the current environment. And what it comes down to is that culture just Cannot be ignored. So, you know, at the start of the pandemic, companies did need to focus on the fundamentals. Right? They had New HR policies for remote work to put out. They had to make sure, of course, first and foremost, actually, that employees were kept safe.

F And then there was just the vitality of the business, keeping it, out of the red. You know? A lot of businesses are just kind of figuring out how do we survive. But as the pandemic has continued and sort of stabilized in some ways, right, the way that we're working, You know, I think everybody has realized that there will be lasting impacts, and companies need to be proactive now versus reactive when it comes to culture and how people are going to interact with each other, in this new reality. So, you know, the hard times are also when values are really put to the test, so it can become very glaringly obvious. You talked about, How do you get that bank of stories? Well, anybody who's been in business since March of this year has a whole lot of stories that they could use to say, hey. This is something that happened, and, Wow. We really pulled it out, or, oh, that really hurt everybody when we did it this way. Right? So so the hard times are when values are really put to the test, And companies are being forced to look inwards, you know, at their core, shall we say.

F And they're asking, are the foundations in place to align the organization? Do companies need to pressure test and revisit their values? Do they need to recommit the org and make sure they're activated across the employee experience? And in new ways, you know, maybe we were doing that before, but the things that we were doing to promote connection, just are not cutting it now. We have to really be creative, about how we're doing that now. And whether a company has strong values or not, it's imperative that we do build and sustain trust, and connection in these remote environments. So many new hires have never even been to their office or met any of their coworkers in person. I don't know if You all have experienced that, but certainly many of our clients were, you know, having interviews with with folks during the discovery phase, and they have been hired, in the time since the pandemic started. And it's hard. It's really hard to truly understand What a company is about having never met anybody in person. And all no employee can rely anymore on flybys or other, interaction.

F So you have to be super intentional and really create that space for people to connect and to share and to listen to each other. You know, we've built some new offerings to help strengthen connections and help individuals and teams get to know each other. And it's so interesting. We you know, We'll do these exercises, and at the end, people will just be like, wow. It's been so long since I've been able to actually talk with that. You know, I see them all the time on these meetings, but since we Actually, we're able to connect in a meaningful way, and they're just grateful for that time. You know? But that's not hard. Any company can do that.

F You can just, you know, make that time for each other. The last thing I'll say about how the pandemic has changed, is kind of on the the personal side for At Your Core. We've definitely flexed new muscles. And I think everybody's flexing new muscles right now, but that's something that Steph and I got a lot of energy from in our work is really just Being with our clients in person. And this is not something that's dissimilar from what everyone used to enjoy, right, about being able to do with their coworkers on a daily basis. But In this environment, obviously, we're not able to travel. Everything is over Zoom, but we've really learned how to use new tools. And I think that we would both agree there are some pretty fantastic unexpected benefits.

F So, you know, talking about those connections that, I was just mentioning, this is the power of the Zoom breakout room. If you are hosting any type of a group discussion And you would like people to think about it a little bit more deeply, any topic, we highly encourage you to try a Zoom breakout room. This is going to change the way the whole group can connect, can discuss, can debate. You know, giving people a topic, asking them to either get into it on a personal side or to solve a business problem and then come back and share the learnings of what they discussed. It's really super powerful and has been, you know, a real bright spot, I think, for us during during this time of all virtual work.

C So I think, Anne, you've raised a lot of really good points. I know, there are so many examples that I could point to. I know one of my very good friends Changed firms in the middle of this and had to hand in his laptop and then, you know, get a laptop from a new company, and he never met his coworkers, Tietti was leading a whole team of architects on this new project, and he he's been, like, really working hard to overcome that obstacle. And then I had another client tell me that, you know, right out of the gate when the work from home shelter in place started happening, they were in Fight or flight mode, and they were just trying to get through figuring everything out, and then they realized pretty quickly that there was, Some Zoom fatigue, and so they were struggling to figure out how do we take our culture and adapt it into trying to Make it work in this new digital world. So I know anyone listening has their own stories to share. I'm I'm just curious if you wanna on helping us educate our listeners on what firms could be doing differently, than what they were doing pre COVID to make This new work from home world, digital world work for them better.

E That's obviously very top of mind for everyone. And I think, you know, obviously, 1st and foremost is a little bit of adaptability and just the willingness to do things differently. Right? You have to flex new muscles. But the number one thing we would tell companies to do is to practice empathy. This is such a trying and challenging time that no one has experienced before, and we're going through it all together, but to Truly understand and feel for others' positions and perspective, you know, really does build trust and connection, Which can unlock then a new found sense of motivation, commitment, and productivity, which benefits both the individual employee and the company as a whole. So when we talk about practicing empathy, it really is a muscle that can be flexed and ideally it's something that companies do all the time, but the reality is We've never had it be put to the test as much as right now. So just helping to coach people to listen actively and avoid assumptions. Put yourself in the other person's shoes while we're all going through this experience, we're all experiencing it differently, right? And to really understand the specific needs of your coworkers And then to also be vulnerable and share your own experience and really lead by example is really going to build that trust and connection That is necessary when times are tough, but also so necessary and so challenging in a remote world.

E The second thing, is more Frequent communication to keep people connected. So it's all again about how do you build the trust and connections and then keep people connection, connected. But that doesn't mean 9 to 5 video calls, right? You mentioned Zoom fatigue, which is so real and we've heard over and over again About the increase in meetings since going remote. Right now, it's like, who needs a lunch break or commuting time? We can be on meetings all the time. But to mitigate this, we actually really encourage, companies to just set up more guidelines and principles for how to run meetings effectively Using agendas, using pre reads so that the time really spent on the call is action oriented. It's to tee up Discussions to make decisions and versus providing status updates. So it's all about making action, making decisions, moving things forward versus just on the phone to share, again, because we have to be mindful of people's need to kind of recharge from a computer. And then the last thing that we would recommend, and we kind of talked about this at the beginning though, is increasing transparency.

E So if organizations weren't previously doing kind of an all hands type of meeting, we recommend starting those or increasing the frequency. Because when we can't all be together, having a few moments and a forum to actually see leadership, to hear From leadership and know that everyone else is hearing the same message where leadership is recognizing wins, storytelling, Calling out those on value behavior actually goes a really long way in keeping employees engaged.

C All good points, and I guess the thing that keeps coming back for me in this conversation is just the fact that I think Culture in and of itself is very intangible for some people. It's an abstract idea. It's confusing maybe for some people to think about Unifying a group of people around a common culture, and I and I just really like that you all are putting, parameters around it, talking about behavior, talking about how to measure it, how to look at it, how to talk about it, the language around it. I think that's so helpful for leaders who may not find culture as a discussion intuitive. It's really needed. You know, I've I've I've sat in offices where people don't talk, and it's shocking to me. And I think that, the more we can create spaces that allow especially right now, I can imagine people who are Sitting at home, trying to work from home, and they might be in a studio apartment as a young employee, and suddenly they have the entire Office for the staff meeting, looking at their bedroom, you know, it just the empathy part is so important right now. Everybody's situation is different.

C Everybody's gonna handle this different. Their comfort level with this is different, and there just needs to be a lot more room for, That subtlety in conversation and culture.

E Absolutely. I mean, one thing we'll say is, you know, When it comes down to it, like all organizations, no matter the size of the industry, do face some similar common challenges when it comes to Kind of driving employee engagement. And organizations are deeply human and humans are looking to connect to each other and feel supported by each other. And one great way to do that is to kind of unite over the organization's purpose and values and work together to Solve hard problems. And so that's what's always really important to, you know, to kind of tie back to is this sense of connection and connecting to the purpose, To the values and then seeing all employees and holding yourself accountable to live those day in and day out.

D So as we were recording with Anne and Steph. One thing that occurred to me is how topical this notion of employee engagement is here in the Bay Area, where there has always been this incredible fight for talent, especially in the tech world, but it's a lesser known data point that's used by most architectural Firms. So as an example, at Slack, we do a yearly employee engagement survey, and nearly a 100 people respond because They know that their voices will be heard. And ultimately, we take the findings of that report, and we report it out at a global level. But then also, managers get their team responses if they are managing managing 5 or more people. So the responses remain remain anonymous, And they get a report from their team. And after all of this has been shared, There are then follow-up meetings and committees who then look at those outcomes and make recommendations on how to improve in areas Where engagement has dropped off or just areas that, you know, we think we were struggling in and we really wanna lift it up Further, or we want to excel or differentiate ourselves by raising those certain areas up? So I think it's really And a really important data point that architecture firms can start collecting, it is something that can actually be measured, And it is something that you can use to improve the overall employee culture.

C So, Evelyn, I wanna clarify, for our listeners, so are you saying that the managers actually also participate in this three sixty review where they're getting feedback from their staff? Yes. Absolutely. Wow. That's really exciting to hear. I've I have wanted that in, jobs that I've had previously, but that does not exist to most firms.

D And to be and to be clear, like that, the review process is also different than the engagement process. Right? So the employee engagement Can be a result of it's definitely, I feel, like a result of their manager, but it is also a result of How they feel a part of the whole. Right? Not just their team, but how they feel part of the company. So, There's definitely areas where different teams will be struggling differently, but, we separately do 3 60 interviews of our managers on top of the employee engagement survey.

C Thanks for clarifying that. I I just find that really interesting, and I think that's important information that It is relevant to this conversation. You know, as we were going through this and listening to what Anne and Steph had to say about it, It struck me as really interesting that they, in their own research, have come up with a series of engagement points that are very important, And they really match some of the observations that I had had over time of where I see missed opportunities most frequently inside of architecture firms, And the first one that I think is really critical is the onboarding piece. This often becomes a Kind of underdeveloped piece of the employee engagement experience. You know, I think frequently, Teams are so anxious to get someone on and started on their projects that they forget about this onboarding piece. They might have One conversation at one point in time that helps them get oriented into the office, but A larger ongoing conversation that really brings someone into getting up to speed on things, is usually not Allocated in the project management plan. It's more of a jump in the deep end with us, and we're gonna figure it out together. I've heard project managers say, you know, it'll just take some time.

C You know, you you'll get up to speed, which I think is fair. But, In the spirit of engagement, I think an onboarding process and being really thoughtful about how you help people acclimate is critical to getting them to be more productive more quickly. It takes more time, but I think once you start developing those processes Within an organization, it it actually isn't that difficult, and the responsibility can be shared amongst the entire team and the entire office so that it's not Stuck on 1 person. It's just a part of the cultural conversation. The the second one that I wanted to point out is this idea of Development opportunities and really framing those for staff within the office, so creating opportunities that help staff feel like they're They're setting goals, that they have a road map, that they have a plan around how they're gonna grow. A lot of times, this gets wrapped up into an annual review process. And I have to say, you guys, once a year isn't enough. You know, this has to be a bigger conversation about helping people feel like on a month to month basis that they're heading in a direction, that they feel like they're getting feedback, that they have goals that they're working towards.

C If you save it for an annual review, and in worst case scenarios, you actually don't have that annual review or you delay it, which occurs quite a bit due to deadlines, it really has a negative consequence on the individual who's setting all of their, You know, hopes and dreams on having that conversation with you to unpack certain things. It's It's really a missed opportunity. So those conversations need to be more on a month to month or quarterly basis in my opinion.

D One thing I've actually done in the past with people I worked at in a firm is after we did those reviews, you know, there'll be some individuals that say, you know, I want to Be better speakers or be better more articulate in front of clients or I you know, I want to understand what the takeaways are from a meeting. So, You know, how do you blend those goals into creating checkpoints To understand where they are in their progress. So for instance, if somebody is interested in being better engaged in client meetings, I would bring them along to a client meeting, and then we would make a specific we would find We wouldn't make time after the meeting, at the conclusion of that meeting, to to do it, like, a a download or a digest. And I would have them go 1st and, you know, talk to me about their thoughts or their outcomes of the meeting, and then I'll kind of readjust their framework saying, given what we know of the client And their expectations, I think this is actually what they were trying to say. It's helps it's helped people understand where they've, like, Either misinterpreted something or misassumed something, and and just helped them through like, by creating these actual checkpoints to help them with the areas that they wanted to focus and develop. Mhmm.

C Another point I wanna make is just the fact that, you know, from a leadership standpoint, you know, you may feel like you're in all the meetings and that, you know, You can't bring younger staff to these meetings, and that might be true. You know? The budget might constrain how many meetings they get to go to. But, periodically, those are really important, and a great way to offset those when you can't include them in all the meetings is allowing for those in house events that happen that you know, allowing younger staff to speak up at staff meetings or join a committee or Go to an AI event. Whatever it is, you know, the the value of encouraging that is really to offset that experience that they may or may not beginning When they can't go to a client meeting or a client interview, you're trying to create those opportunities in different ways and that those are some options. And I wanna come back to the main idea around this, which is really just about helping helping people feel like they fit into your organization And that they understand and can identify opportunities where their growth is occurring within the firm. When that doesn't happen, people become disengaged. And I think people also really wanna be recognized for their work. So Anytime that you can celebrate either on a team or, you know, on a 1 on 1 conversation, the wins For that person where they're succeeding, it really goes a long way.

C I mean, that is a valuable currency in terms of Keeping people engaged and excited about working for you.

D I think on some level too, it's equally important to allow people to Comment and celebrate other achievements that may be professional, but may not be directly related to the So one instance or one way you might be able to do this even in Teams or Slack, for instance, is to kind of have, like, a wins for the week Post, where every Friday, somebody everyone posts their wins for the week. And it doesn't have to be necessarily Firm related, you know, it could be I pass my ARE. Sometimes it's just, you know, I made it through a successful 1st week Of school with our kids in distance learning. But, I I mean, it's just one thing I think it Makes everyone realize that, you know, everyone is struggling with with many different things. But, like, it also like, even when I'm just like, oh, I made it through a week With my kids and distance learning, like, that in itself is an accomplishment. And sometimes I don't recognize that. But by somebody else calling that out, then I recognize It is an accomplishment, and it it just helps keep moving things forward.

C Yeah. And I really appreciate it. You know, Evelyn and I always try to do this with each other just, You know, when we're hanging out with our friends, you know, either one of us might throw the other just a nice compliment saying, wow. Evelyn did a really great job on this, Janine did a great job on that, and, I mean, that kind of support really is invaluable. I mean, that's what building a Strong team is all about. And the last thing I wanna just mention is That I think a common occurrence that's really unfortunate is when culture is not a priority at all. And in some cases, it's It's so put on the back burner that, you know, when people are disengaged, I mean, that is the formula for when people will leave your firm. I promise.

C And so you're you're wanting to build connection between staff members, Teams and to the leadership. And I know that sometimes firm owners feel like they can't just, You know, dictate that that happens. It has to be organic, and you're right. It does. So it's important to identify how To nurture and cultivate that culture to grow organically, but coming from the leadership By identifying that it is important to the firm and creating space for that to happen, I think it is something that can grow And can be successful, and it and it has a huge ROI in the long run. Absolutely. So I'll close by just saying that I really encourage our listeners to go check out the blog article that Anne and Steph wrote because, I mean, those are my thoughts, but they wrote it very articulately and summarized it in detail, and, you know, they do this work every day, so they can come in and Talk to you about the different checkpoints of employee engagement, and we will link that into the show notes so that you can get to it pretty easily.

D Right. And along with that, they've also have really great stats about or more specific stats that we can share with you In the resources about how employee engagement leads to better productivity, less absenteeism, less turnover, And, ultimately, a workforce dedicated to the values and mission of your company or organization.

C So whether you're looking to Start a company or you have an existing company, it's very important to document your values and the behaviors that exemplify those Values, I think that was a major theme in this episode that we talked about. And right now, given that we are going through COVID and this pandemic in uncertain Times. It's a perfect time to do reassessment because everything has slowed down and it's a little bit on pause. People need direction, and this is a great place to reevaluate those values and and recommunicate them with your staff to, provide leadership in a time of uncertainty.

D Absolutely. So I wanted to thank everyone for listening. But before we sign off, one of our last shows of the season, and we're coming up. This is episode 17 of 20. So for one of our last shows, we're doing what is called an AMA or an ask me anything From our listeners, so feel free to literally ask us anything. Our dog's names, Something about architectural business, what do you want to know about or have Janine and I comment on? So please feel free to send us your questions by emailing me directly at evelynevelin@practiceofarchitecture.com. That's practice of architecture, All lowercase. No hyphens.

D No dashes. Just one big, long word. So I think we'll end the episode there. Thank you for listening, and be sure to tune in next Visit us at practice disruptive.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This Show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gabl Media.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, you can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about.

D Thanks for listening, and see you next