Architecture, And: Tech

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners.

A So this week on Practice Disrupted, we're bringing on Kat Dubsenko. And I've been chatting with her on Twitter, of all places, the past, I don't know, few months. And, Actually, I recently saw her present at an AIA conference on tech, but I wanted to bring her on because she has a unique role at Google how where she works in their r and d lab for the built environment. But she also has a super interesting take on the future of the profession, the overlap with technology and things that we should be keeping an eye out on that are happening now.

B Not only is Cat gonna talk to us a little bit about what's what's happening at Google and especially Google r and d, but we're also gonna segue into an expanded conversation from season 1 where we were talking about architecture and. And today, we're specifically talking about architecture and tech, which you'll hear at the second half of the interview.

A So Kat Dubhenko how is inspired by the dynamic energy around architecture and urban planning. Kat maintains that there are more complex, ambiguous, and unsolvable the problem, how The better. As program manager at the r and d lab for the built environment, Kat drives talented teams to unite and achieve outcomes that they would not be able to do individually at multiple scales and in multiple stages of the design process. With r and d, Cat navigates speculative pockets of the future and weaves together how they may impact our built spaces. Kat never shies away from ambiguity and is Skilled at using foresight and storytelling to propel leading edge technologies into real products for the workplace and beyond. Kat was born near a nuclear meltdown in Kiev, Ukraine, which imbued her with a superpower for exploration and discovery. She studied finance, of all things, in Vancouver, Canada before earning her m mark from the University of Toronto. In our spare time, Kat works alongside 3 brilliant investors and leads a syndicate of architects and builders to invest in AEC related startups.

A How She is currently learning how to play a steel hang drum, albeit slowly. Let's cut to the interview.

C So I have a pretty eclectic background. I Which I'm actually really, like, I

A Which I'm actually really, like, excited. Great. Great. Great. Yeah.

C It's not it's not your standard background.

A No. Not at all.

C So I grew up in, BC, and That's British Columbia, Canada, and my family is actually from kind of a a Slavic mutt, mix or Ukrainian, Russian. My family grew up in Kazakhstan, and, we ended up going to the US first, and then we ended up going to Canada. And I grew up kind of, surrounded by, Canada. And I also grew up kind of surrounded by the fact that I helped my parents kind of, flip houses. So I always had a little bit of, housing and architecture in my blood, so to speak. And I went to school studying finance, thought I'd do something super practical. Ended up doing a real estate development in Vancouver because that was sort of like the the Wall Street equivalent in Vancouver. How There was a period of time where Vancouver real estate was growing at, incredible rates, and so everybody was trying to get in.

C And my 1st brush with architecture really came when I was in undergrad, and I was part of a client group. I was part of a student union and we were pretty powerful in in the student union sense such that we actually created and started to steward the building of a new student union building. So that ended up being around 250,000 square feet, elite platinum, a $104,000,000 building how that went up on campus. And so I got to really act, and work with, at the time, the HBBH, which now is Dialog in Canada BH. And that was my 1st taste into architecture. Granted, it was from the client side, and it was fun from, like, the very fun concept how side. So I I believe I got the the best best experience first. And then bright eyed and bushy tailed, I ended up deciding to go into lecture in Toronto.

C And I had, three and a half very, very long years in Toronto and ended up going to San how Francisco off of a fellowship and fell in love with tech, entered the science song of tech, ended up working as a consultant for Google, and here I am.

A Yeah. So you work in a part of Google that most people have never really heard about. How Right. It's, r and d. It's the r and d lab for the built environment. Can you tell us a little bit about what the r and d lab is and how, You know, why is it a part of Google?

C Totally. Totally. It is a very weird little lab on the offshoots how of their kind of real estate development group. I didn't know this coming in, but Google is is one of the largest real estate developers in North America. And granted this may change after COVID, but one of the really interesting things is it's it was, to a certain degree, up in their best interest to really think about construction and really think about architecture and see if they could move the needle on this very notoriously slow and kind of inefficient industry. How So that was, really the the thesis for this lab. It's a very small lab. It's run by a, incredibly talented woman.

C And That's kind of a little bit what we do. We're part management consulting and then part architecture and then part, like, fab mock up shop. So We're able to do mock ups and fabricate things, quite quickly, more or less. And so that allows us to really test out ideas outside of the project cycle, how Which I think is something that is a huge benefit to the architectural and the construction profession. So that's a little bit of what we do. We're a group of builders. Mostly folks how architects, but there are engineers. There are people that we work with cross, functionally.

C So it's a very exciting and interesting place to be, and I'm very grateful how to be able to to work there.

A You know, does a lot of the r and d that comes out of the lab then get applied to Google offices? How You mentioned consulting. So are you more, like, consulting internal to Google, or is there any applications that come out of the r and d that actually how Has implications outside of Google's real estate portfolio.

C Mostly, it's the real estate portfolio. And, For example, one of the things I can speak to because it's public is Google's relationship with Factory ROS, which was how stewarded a little bit through the lab as well as through the entire department. And FactoryOS is a modular housing manufacturer in the Bay Area, and They're working a little bit in the South Bay to create housing for Google. Now a lot of it is right now with COVID. As you can imagine, everybody in tech is really trying to figure out what the next office looks like. And some people are floating around ideas of a hybrid office. Some people are floating around ideas of all remote and some other flavor of that. And so a lot of my work right now, for sure, as you can imagine, has to do with consulting for the workplace, but it how wasn't always the case.

C I think the world is becoming increasingly digital. But at the same time, I think a lot of What we've been doing in terms of 2 dimensional screens are trying, at least, trying to become three-dimensional. So there's this whole new field that I recently how found out about, which I'm incredibly excited about, is human building interaction. And it's just the idea that the interface can be more than just a 2 d screen how in a terminal based kind of interface. So there is this huge talk about spatial computing and ambient computing that I'm really excited to see where that all develops in, and I think architects can play a pretty big role there.

A Yeah. So I wanted to expand upon that a little bit more. So you did how say that you ended up studying architecture, but it seems that you've always been more interested in this technology side. So how where did that take you? You know, tell us a little bit about your architecture studies and how you integrated technology into that.

C Totally. I have I also wanna do a little PSA here. I was a horrible architecture student. And for the folks that are in architecture school or just graduated, There's hope for you. Don't and be, I think that the reality was I I didn't really because I was coming in pretty cold. I was coming in from a finance how degree. So you can imagine going from modeling in spreadsheets to to modeling in 3 d and how Creating graphic presentations and learning about that while simultaneously learning about the design process was a trip. And I'm really happy and grateful for it.

C But in my architecture time, I was pretty I I don't know if it was pretty bad. I think it was pretty bad along with it, like, according to their view of what architecture could be. And so I always tried to push the boundaries. I was really interested in technology, loved learning about all these crazy modelers and create software, Really embraced that part of it. Really loved being in, kind of digital fabrication and, pondering about interfaces and human computer interaction or things like that. So I I didn't know what HCI or HBI were in my grad school, but

A Right.

C Had I had I known, maybe I would have would have been a little bit more keen on that. In my thesis work, I actually ended up doing a thesis how not really architecture related, but really was more art related. My, adviser, Entei, who's a brilliant artist in Toronto, really pushed us to think a little bit broadly, and I think I owe him a lot, to that. And I think to this day, I still carry a lot of that kind of love of art and love of thinking about architecture in a larger context from him. And I I think it's just, it's been it's been such a great experience, but I also, looking back now, realize how much of that baggage I carried throughout the 1st couple years of, after architecture. So realizing that perhaps it wasn't that I was terrible at architecture, but perhaps it was a little bit of the fact that I wasn't, but I was just trying to do something a little bit different than everyone else at that school at that time.

B I appreciate that you're saying that and your honesty about that because I think there are definitely people out there who share those feelings when they go through studio and even when they are in practice, but they don't they you know, nobody wants to say that out loud because it's the whole idea of, like, trying to be the best you can at this. It it feels very vulnerable to put that kind of idea out there. I wanted to also mention that you you said a couple things that are interesting. One, I think you're the 1st person that we've invited on the show that how started with a finance background and then went into architecture, so that really puts you in a different category. And how I I also really appreciated what you had to say about perhaps some of your professors viewing your work through what they thought architecture could be. So I I feel you on feeling like you're how Pushing up against, like, these boundaries that exist within people's perceptions about things and what they should be. I'd love to hear more about how you made that transition to get out of that restraint or those boundaries.

C Mhmm. Yeah. I guess there's been probably 2 transitions. The first one being the finance transition into being an architect or, I still I think I still am on that journey. I've been recently reading The Artist's way, and it's really all about how kind of everybody is creative and are everybody is an artist to a certain degree. And it's been really helpful To understand that to conceptualize myself even as as an architect or capital, lowercase a architect. And so I think with regards to the transition from finance, before I I kinda talk about it, one of the things that I really thought what's really great about business school and it's something that perhaps architects could could use a little bit more of was I've learned how to how Speak in front of groups of people professionally very early on. We had these things called case competitions where you would how be given a business case, and you would create a little slide deck presentation, and you would essentially pretend as if you're giving kind of a management consulting pitch to how to, leadership, and that allowed me to learn how to be very eloquent very early on.

C So I'm very lucky that I got how to do that, and that's something that business school does. The second thing is I learned a little bit of how to market myself how in marketing and the benefit of marketing. I think a lot of architects think perhaps that our marketing is below them. And I I mean, there are a little bit of this kind of, like, swarming, marketing kind of belief, so I definitely understand that.

A I do think it's part of, our work should speak for ourselves. Therefore, I don't need to market.

C Yeah. It really is. It really is. And I was thinking about this this morning, and there there's just so much out there that, I think people in architecture speak to other people in architecture, pretty well, but I think people in architecture should or have to, at this point, speak to people from other fields a lot better because we're we're starting to realize that And then there's, like, kind of a broadening of design fields and so forth. So we'll we'll talk maybe we'll talk about that later because I I think there's there's we can go on a tangent there. But Going back to the main thing of of transitioning

A Yes. Sorry.

C I, I you know, I think what What's helped me is kind of understanding and and having self percussion and having really good mentors. So those are those are things that really helped me initially to transition. It was not an easy transition. There was a lot of things I had to unlearn as I was going from finance into, into architecture. And then weirdly, as I went into architecture and architecture and tech, kind of going into the tech industry, there's a lot of things I had to unlearn again. And I think a lot of people, at least my age, a lot of, young architects or people that have had architectural training are looking at tech as this incredible thing, and I think it is to a certain degree. There's a lot of benefits that the tech field and the tech industry offers that it that architecture doesn't. And so I I feel like one of the most interesting things for me was really understanding that, And I don't say this I I hate I hate to say this, like, kind of cheekily, but, like, people were valued in the tech industry how To a certain degree, so there wasn't this, like, hierarchical thing.

C And I was going from a very traditional architecture firm that had these very hierarchical standards. And Going to Google, you realize that there's this whole ethos and this whole culture of Googliness and kind of, like, whimsicalness that still is very much alive in this a 100,000 organization. So the 1st kind of transition that I had to do is transition and and really conceptualize myself as someone that was a creator and a builder. So That was the kind of my finance to architecture. But then from architecture to tech, I realized that I had to kind of think of myself a little bit more as kind of almost less of a builder and more of a collaborator. So that was the the trajectory that went how that I went through, and I'm still on that trajectory. I think there's a lot of things that tech can learn from architecture, And there's a lot of things that architecture can learn from tech. And someone that is up and coming and young is I think we we have this idea that the people need mentoring, that people need how to jump through hoops or show their experience.

C And I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's, like, how Explicit. Like, I I I'm sure if you ask an architect, they'll never say that, that that our like, folks need to put in their time. And one of the coolest things about tech is that people that are young can scale and make giant companies and be super successful. And There is far less of this, kind of chisung during ageism. There's ageism in another way, but there's how Far less of this kind of like, oh, you're only 18 or you're only 20. Well, you you have to wait 10 more years before doing this. Whereas in tech, oh, you're 18/20. Okay.

C Cool. Go start a company. Like, that's great. And I think that's something that we can really learn about. And it's In tech, I'm super old. Like, I'm considered, like, someone that is old in tech. But in architecture, I'm considered someone that is really young. And I'm, like, a young architect and up and coming or whatever in that world, and it's very telling.

C It's telling of the cultures and how peep what is actually prized in the 2 different sectors and industries. And I think A lot of people, at least in my cohort, are really interested in making the switch from architecture to how to UX. And I think that's really great, and I'm really excited for them. But I also worry that that how switch is the result of the architectural profession being not that great rather than them genuinely being interested in how 2 d interface design or some other branch of tech. Right. I

A you know, I've been seeing a lot of that to how A lot of inquiries around, like, the switch to UX design being popped up. And, I mean, what's interesting to me is you and I both have positions in tech, but it's not UX how Design. So I think there's another level of exploration too that, that goes to the lack of understanding of kind of all the roles how in the bigger companies where architects can actually have an impact too. But I do think that, you know, people are are seeing, how You know, all the the benefits that tech has to offer and weighing that against the monotony of what they see in traditional practice and saying, how the grass is greener over there.

C Yeah. I I I wanna push back on that because I think there's there's the positions in tech that are really exciting about, like, the product itself. And I was in a in a area within the lab that was really about, at the end of the day, lowering cost. So it wasn't really kind of a new product, area. It wasn't really a driver. It was lowering costs and maybe by some way increasing productivity because the spaces were so amazing and the The things you were offering to, especially software and engineers, was really incredible. And I I think when I think about tech companies, I actually am I I love the fact that you have Amazon and the big big tech companies being really excited about space and workplace, But I'm also really bullish and excited about companies like WeWork, granted, all all things considered with WeWork. But That was a company in a in a place where the product itself had architecture in it.

C So it was a it's a spatial product. And I think, Things like Cattera, WeWork. Maybe there's a whole bunch of others that are gonna come through. We have yet to see what the VR world really comes up with. So I think those companies are really exciting because their main product line has to do with architecture and space. Whereas something like Google, their main product line is really kind of ad sales, maybe some hardware. So I I think, I think if you're someone that is maybe a a young, Architect or someone that just graduated. I think one of the coolest things you could do is really look at these companies that are straddling between physical and digital, and there's a ton of them.

C Really, I feel like there's been kind of this huge explosion of these sort of companies in the past few years.

B I Really agree with what you're saying because I've seen especially being in the Bay Area, I mean, this was a conversation that came up a lot because of the cost of living constraints there. Some of my colleagues and I would talk about from our point of view, which may be informed or less informed. How tech workers got paid more. They had more benefits. There was a lot of support behind them or it's it's so it seemed. And and so for how For us, we're like, okay, man. We're trying to make our paycheck stretch as much as we can to get as much housing as we can while paying our student loans and how doing all this work, and, it just felt a little bit frustrating. And so I I know I know there are people that I previously worked with.

B Like, 1 just went to Facebook as a engineer, and so I've seen others go other places. It is a transition, and it I agree with you. Like, if you're going because you want a better salary, versus if you're going because you really are interested in tech, Like, those are really important questions to ask yourself because it might not solve the solution that you think it's solving.

C Right. And it's okay if you're going for a better salary salary. I think that's a signal to our profession that we really need to think about how do we modernize, how do we become Relevant. There's, obviously, every everybody in architecture loves to talk about the architecture profession and make these kind of, like, long winded predictions, But one of them really is this kind of, like, irrelevancy, and I see it happening while like, right in front of my eyes where you have people that are not in the profession, you know, talking about, like, petered language and Jane Jacobs and acting as if they're these, you know, this is mostly theses, but, like, these people that are, like, really into and know fundamentals of architecture, and they're in positions of power, and They're making decisions on built space without architects, for urban designers, or people in the know in the room. So I'm really worried about that. And I see it at the same time, which how is really, really great and and to a certain degree, something we should totally embrace is this idea of, kind of tech founders being really interested in this sector. There's you know, it depends on how you count it, but there's around $12,000,000,000,000 to be to be kind of played with when it comes to the AUC world. And so that's a huge number.

C And so you can see a bunch of these tech founders being really interested in this world, Interested in optimizing construction, interested in new forms of construction tools and so forth. So I I think there's so much out there for architects how to be participants in. And at the same time, I'm a little worried that we'll we'll kinda be left behind.

B How do you see your skills coming from architecture adding value to the teams that you're working with at Google?

C So I wrote a little bit, and I and I spoke to the AIA a few months ago about how architectural skills Can really be honed in. I think architecture kind of generally is a really good generals foundation. I know others have spoken about this, this idea of Generalist Foundation. And it's actually a pretty technical generalist foundation. Like, if you can master Rhino In AutoCAD, you're actually doing pretty technical work. And if you're doing a little bit of Grasshopper or how Managing a database in Revit. You're you're already almost there when it comes to being an engineer and thinking about it in these terms. So I think there's this kind of technical skill set that's really amazing and really awesome, and it's obviously the the bridge technical skill set.

C I think the crazy work ethic doesn't get enough kind of marketing. Like, there is just this incredible work ethic in architects and in people that have architectural training. Just certain degree, probably to their detriment, just how To a certain degree, I think at some point, you don't wanna be so masochistic. But, and the last thing and I I spoke about this. The most important thing, I think, is one of the coolest things that you at least learned, at least I learned in architecture school, is to think in leaps rather than marginal improvements. So there is this idea that when you have design and you're trying to solve something, design is how is kind of this idea of problem solving. And I think one of the most interesting things that architecture has afforded, at least myself, is this idea that You can solve a problem marginally, so make, like, a marginal solution, or you can really think about the problem and solve it through these, like, kind of how LEAPS, conceptual leaps. And I think architects, at least, in school, have been taught to think in conceptual leaps Rather than in marginal improvements.

C And when I think about the world right now and things like climate change and inequity and all this kind of stuff that's happening, And it's and it's scary stuff. And it requires kind of a an infrastructural level of solutions. So built solutions rather than solutions purely in the bits world, whereas architects can really help there. And then also, it requires these, like, solutions that are not marginal. How like, it's not just a faster horse, so to speak. It's it's really these conceptual leaps that you need to be doing. And so I Architects are really well suited. I I'm hoping I'm I'm still pretty optimistic that the profession is going to

A how generally go towards that trajectory. So if I'm a student and I'm sitting here listening to this conversation and I'm stuck how You know, I I have the syllabus that my teachers have given me. Like, how do I start to even research or understand how Kind of some of the things that you're talking about and understand what the VCs are are doing. Like like, where where would you point students What direction would you point students so they can, like, begin down this path of exploration that that almost that I wish that I had in school, but was, like, so focused on On what the internal curriculum was.

C Yeah. I don't know if you you should necessarily follow what the VCs are doing, maybe follow what the artists and the weirdos are doing. But I think I mean, look. I I actually feel like I'm I'm probably now old enough to be A little bit less in tune with what architect students are doing and, like, what they're seeing and the tools they're using. I feel like perhaps it's already in play, and it's not necessarily going above and beyond and because, I mean, look, I was Quite busy when I was in architecture school. So I mean, to be to ask someone to do more than what they're already doing is is a really big, Big ask. I think it's more honing and being in tune with what the world is. So, for example, the other day, Louis Vuitton just Had their new collection, and it's all architectural, and it's, these kind of Barcelona pavilion style how And so just being, aware that that architecture is there and that there's just these different trends out in the world.

C Concretely, what does that actually mean? I think this is already happening, and correct me if this is not something you're seeing, But I definitely see at least the new generation really embracing architectural design tools to a real real like, kind of a real way. And there's just so much tools out there. And I think there's so many other tools that, like, if you've really mastered Rhino, the jump to something like Figma is Nothing. It's it's actually kind of super, super easy. So I I don't know if I wanna tell people, like, here, study Figma, learn how to code, and all that. I think that's, like kind of a cop out answer. I think it's really you have the monopoly of being yourself. So I think just being in tune how And understanding what you're interested in and just following that.

C And if that ends up being technology, then that's great. I think there is obviously, the community of Architeckeys, which is kind of a Slack channel, is one of the best communities out there. I had a really when I first came to San Francisco, my professor, who's phenomenal, really introduced me to Architec. He said, hey. There's this really great community. And I think that's, so I think, like, following following what you're generally interested in, maybe looking at it from who are the folks that are kind of in that world how Twitter and following those people. Maybe there's other TikToks and things like that and other social media worlds that I'm no longer aware of, and then also just, finding these community pockets. And I think there's absolutely nothing stopping you.

C I think people have a have a belief that, like, how Product designers or, PMs or folks in the tech world are substantially different, than than themselves and that they're almost kind of unattainable. But I've worked with product designers. I've worked with PMs. And The reality is, like, so much of that learning comes on the job. So I think if you're interested in becoming or switching, how Even if you're early on or if you're not early on, I spoke to people that have been in the architecture professor for decades and wanted to go into tech. I think it's still very much possible. There's so much out there, and there's so many people that need talent. And most architects are incredibly talented, so I would say do that.

A And just to for the acronym, so PM, as you may or may not imagine, is a project manager. And actually, a lot of tech companies how need project managers to, like, help usher these multidisciplinary teams forward. So it's not Mhmm. Like, at a core, how What those PMs are doing is not different than how we usher a whole bunch of consultants for to complete a a building. So so that role exists Outside of architecture as well.

C Absolutely.

B I'm really curious to hear you talk about what brings you joy in your current role, and I know we asked in our, prep, you know, kinda what where you feel like you're heading. So maybe if you wanna go down that route, great. But how More so, like, what what are you doing that gets you excited?

C I love this question so much. I I, like, kinda giddied. So I think, generally, so, I I mean, I in many ways, I kind of have a a bit of a dream job. And, one of the things that brings me a tremendous amount of joy. There's 2 things. The first thing is actually thinking about the Sure. And having the headspace to radically conceptualize a brighter future. So right now, we're in a pretty dark space.

C We're we're probably a little bit lighter than we were a few weeks ago, but we're in a pretty dark space. And one of the affordances of my job is how to think about a future, granted probably a future of workplace more than anything, that is post COVID or, kind of a future that is desired and really positive. And so, one of my favorite joys is really to think about the future. And there's a whole study. And I think architects we go back to, like, what are professions that architects are radically good at. And I think, weirdly, there's this kind of a profession called futurist. I I I laugh because it's I can't believe that people pay people to be futurists. But I have done quite a bit of this design fiction and looking at future studies and so forth and worked with some awesome futurists in my profession and While you can't really predict the future, of course, one of the coolest things is you can do is you can at least start to think about it.

C And the more you think about it and the more you how Kind of distill that sort of thinking in organizations, the more people start to use your vocabulary. And to a certain degree, you get to shape the future. So I think shaping the future is one of my first kind of joys. And the other thing that I really am super joyful about is this cross collaboration. So at Google, people are just super kind and really excited to learn from you because They spend so much of their day in this sort of software world that to have someone that comes from a radically different background is actually really cool for them. And Likewise, I spend so much of my life in this very physical world. So to be able to talk to someone that is is coding all day is is a real highlight for me. So So I think one of the coolest things is this cross cultural collaboration.

C So when you are able to collaborate With different people and have a huge diversity of thought, you are able to create these crazy ideas. And Sometimes these ideas are super ridiculous, and they actually make total sense. So those are the things that bring me, like, a tremendous amount of joy. And I think when we think about, like, kind of where I wanna go in the future, and I think just as I was kind of a terrible architecture student, I also am probably a terrible I don't have a 5 year plan. I don't think I've ever met someone that has had a 5 year plan that they've stuck to. And if you have, like, kudos to you. But I'm someone that is is not a 5 year plan kind of person. So for me, the the things that really matter, and and and probably this is true With a lot of millennials is in my future career and future trajectory, am I growing? And I am I making an impact? So those are the 2 things that really matter for me as I go forward in my career trajectory.

C And it might end up being purely tech, or it might end up being, kind of more architecture. I still harbor. I I feel like I still I I'm I'm doing kind of the end curves, and I have, Like, my, like, airy book right beside me. And I I still look at it, like, kinda wistfully saying, I'm I'm not done. I'm not done. But every Uh-huh. You how Just things get in the way, and so everyone is telling me, like, take the tests and

B Oh, yeah. Stuff.

C But, but I think, like, how The that that little desire of, like, maybe I'll do it. Maybe I won't. Still still is there, and every so often, I'll, I'll peruse the book.

B How I have that same challenge, actually, and maybe it's a good one to talk about because I I've I've had my whole career how Because I've been very involved with AIA and worked at firms and had so many architect mentors, they've all been like, yes. How Get license, and I I appreciate their encouragement. And I have my books too. They're right there, and I I'm like, I'm done with IDP or aXP, whatever it's called now, and I've taken a test. I could take more. Maybe I will, but how I don't I don't know. I just there are so many other things that I wanna explore that how aren't on those tests.

C Right. Right. You know, I I don't know. I feel like it so one thing that I've been doing, and this is it's a little embarrassing, things. So, like, don't judge me for it, but I have been very curious about people's career trajectories and how people structure their lives. And one of the things I've been doing when I have some spare time is, like, how Stalking people on LinkedIn, but not in a creepy way, but really trying to understand, like, from the people that I truly admire and think that are doing really interesting things. How did they jump and how did they we go, you know, we spoke about transitions a little bit earlier on in the show and how do people kind of transition from things and where is it that they go. And there's obviously a few moments where you're like, oh, you went from this to this.

C Oh, woah. That's super weird. And sometimes a lot of it's really inspiring to see people. And one of the things that I really realized is that, You know, the arc of the career and the arc of someone's life is very long, and that there's going to be inevitably mistakes in in that arc. And that it it really is convoluted, especially for kind of the decision that I made and and embarked on something very radically different. Like, Where do you go from from this? Or how do you get to this is is also a question. So I've been looking a lot at people that have had really interesting careers. And it's amazing that we have such a thing like LinkedIn to look at some at people's careers and look at their trajectories.

C And There are graphs, so to speak. I also wonder that there's, like, a product in LinkedIn to be made where you look at people's, like, career like, if you're If you're interested in becoming a, I don't know, creative director, what are what are the, like, trajectories of previous creative directors, and how do you how do you do that. So that's something that I've been doing and probably spending a way too many time like, too much time. But it's been really inspiring. And, and, of course, there's when when you think about, like, kind of the licensure route, there's so much of it has to do with kind of our belief of sunk cost. In finance, there's obviously this thing called the sunk cost. And it's hard to it's hard to kind of let go of that, and let go of of those those notions. And so in one hand, I think there's there's the sunk cost kind of thinking.

C And then on the other hand, and this is something recent that my brother-in-law actually spoke to. He's He's a member of the kind of CFA profession. He said, you know, even if you don't use it, to be part of a profession how Like the AIA is something really powerful and really interesting. And it goes back to being part of communities and and growing that through. So so I don't know if I answered that question. I just Yeah.

B And I really apologize. This is not how

A supposed to

C be about

B licensure. Yeah. Some more.

C Yeah. Yeah.

A But I think that's a fair conversation for the both of you to have. And I and I often wonder if that that pressure is, like yes. I think there's a sunk cost. There's, like, all this time we spend in school how studying a very specific thing, and, like, the end of that journey has always, to some degree, been licensure. But I also think I don't know how How much, if you guys feel at all, like, the external pressure of, like, whenever you talk to someone in the profession of, like, how You know, have have you been licensed yet? And I I realized, especially for Janine, whether or not you wanna talk about licensure, that probably comes up how Pretty often when you, like, run into your architect mentors again, just to kind of as, like, like a check as, like, hey, how how is that licensure path coming. So It's just

B Yeah. I feel I feel a deep sense of guilt about it. Yeah.

C So I I think there's There's so much interesting stuff. And and correct me, like, if this isn't something you feel and and, you know, so you spoke to about pressure. You mentioned the word guilt. I don't know if these are very healthy things to harbor. There's I I feel like there's perhaps some, like, I feel like there may be a bit of trauma from my architecture school days that it that I'm still working through. I think, You know, when when I tell people that I do this sort of work outside of the profession, they immediately kind of say, oh, you're an architect. Cool. But then I have to correct them and be like, well, well, technically, I'm this designer.

C You know, I can't really use the word. Sorry. But If it's anything that I can kind of offer is I really want architects or people in this profession To not be as insular with themselves, and be more open. I think right now, we are so kind of, like, Inside, and we kind of do, like, in internal gossip or internal things, wondering about things that are, like, not as important and not as relevant. So many buildings, so many built structures, so much infrastructure has no architect behind it and, so much digital structure, which is kind of moving more into the built realm, with hardware and also with these kind of interfaces and so forth. That doesn't have an architect behind it either. So I I feel like there's there's kind of a real need for us to maybe kind of Shake off a few of this sort of, like, past, beliefs of who and what we are and and embrace a little bit more of openness.

B How I wish I had heard that, you know, 5 years ago. I would've, you know, saved some time beating myself up. But I and I agree with you, how Truly, I I think what I've realized now that I'm in my mid thirties is, like, it's more about how The joy part, the part, you know, connecting with what's going to fuel you through your career, like, how Connecting what you're good at with skill sets and the work that's going to ignite what you do every day.

C Right. Right. Totally.

A Yeah. No. I I think it's it's interesting because I noted, like, at the top of the call, you you talked about unlearning, and how And then kind of you you've mentioned this, like, shedding. And I think there's a certain letting go that how that all of us who have kind of stepped off that traditional role have had to face in our careers. For both of you, has that how Notion of letting go gotten easier, or does, like like, does the guilt get any less for you, like, the further away you get? Like, Kat, you're moving, and you're still carrying your ARE books over here. Where are you go?

C They're incredibly how Heavy. You know, it's it's funny. Like, when I was first doing sort of the Aries, how I was doing

B I I think this is

C speaking to that kind of joy part of it. Like, when I was first doing it, I was like, oh my gosh. I have to do this thing, And I have to get this over and I have to do this hump. Whereas now when I think about it, and maybe this was because of how COVID and you just found that, like, you can't be driven. I think over the long term, at least for me, I can't not be driven by joy. Like, I I I how Cannot do something, consecutively and over and over in this unless I thoroughly enjoy it, to a certain degree. And I I recognize how how privileged that sounds because not everybody gets to do things that they're joyful. And it's an incredibly kind of privileged position to be in.

C And now that I look at kind of things like the Ares, I read those and say, oh, I genuinely am interested in this stuff. Like, oh, that's a trombone, and that's, like, this assembly. And I don't know if I'm ever gonna actually use this, but I'm I I I generally am really interested in in the topics. And I thought a lot about whether I should go down the product or the PM route. So that's product, project, program, whatever. And I looked at, you know, tech companies and thought, no. Maybe I'd be really interested in doing that. And I think Maybe in the future, I'd still be really interested.

C But I think there's just so much out there that needs to be done in the the atoms world over the bits world. I think there's so much that needs to be done. There's there's kind of like, you know, tech has kind of created and and sort of taken advantage of the lowest hanging fruits when it comes to solutions. So I'm speaking a lot about ecommerce and, like, you know, Fintech and these things that are that are not physical. They're they're digital products purely. And when I think about, like, the world and where it needs to go, a world where you have clean energy, you have really vibrant cities that are, kind of resilient, And you have Housing for All, and I I just don't think that an app is gonna solve everything. I really don't. And If that means that I am not getting paid, you know, 3, 4, $500,000 a year, these are the salaries at Silicon Valley, Then to a certain degree, I've made that decision to say, hey.

C I that that isn't my motivating factor. My moting motivating factor is is how to be an agent and change in the built realm. And if the built realm starts to extend into the digital realm, then that's great. But I really wanna be in this stealth realm. And that was a really hard kind of decision to make, and I made that probably this year how is is kind of letting go, but also staying put and saying, hey. I'm gonna do this built realm thing, but I don't need to be, you know, fully licensed to do it. And there's a lot of people that are doing this right now. And I think one of the things that really helped me, again, is is this community thing with architecties.

C Also, I I don't know if if folks are, if you're if folks are interested in kind of the entrepreneurship route. A friend of mine started a a wildly successful a whole startup now, called OnDeck and BeyondDeck. And it's really about now they have a bunch of these kind of educational programs, but one of them was really about, like, if you're starting something new or if you're looking an entrepreneurship in a real way. And so one of the things that I took away from that community was the fact that how The people there are so scrappy and, like, so fearless, and it was incredibly inspiring to see people, you know, in architecture, perhaps we think a lot about that how The the product has to be perfect. Like, you have to show a review and it has to be perfect. But to get there, it's, like, pretty scrappy and ugly. And I think looking at architecture sorry. Looking at, entrepreneurship, you see that you see kind of how the sausage is made when it comes to digital products and companies.

C And you realize really early on, it's okay to be messy and it's okay to be scrappy and it's okay to Let go of those, like, notions of perfection. That's something that, I I obviously has I have, of course, struggled with. And, Yeah. That that's been a really good and positive experience.

B Well, you hit on a lot of things that I would agree with, and I'm not gonna respond to that question right now. I'll how Save it for another time. But, seriously, like, there's some really great nuggets in there of things that I also had to come to realization about. And I think, once you taste joy in your work, you can't forget that, and so how you will want to pursue it. When you find the thing that makes you spark, you're gonna go after it. I mean, it's just a it's just I don't know. For me, that's exactly what ended up happening. And, yeah, I think you it's a process to work through, and You mentioned some other good points in there that we'll come back and summarize in the recap.

B But I also wanna give you space to talk about, like, any additional advice that you would give to someone who is thinking about stepping away from traditional practice, and they're they I know Evelyn asked you about, like, trends that they might be looking at, but, how Are there specific steps that you might tell someone who's either graduating or, you know, they're in a company and they're thinking about pivoting?

C Yeah. I think I wanna caveat that perhaps I think at the end of the day, You know best what's best for you. You may ignore it, but you know best what's best for you. So I I don't know. I would I would take whatever I say, in terms of advice. I'm I'm doing air quotes, with with a grain of salt. But I think one of the things that's helped me, in the past has been to conceptualize big changes as experiments. So think about them how as, like, less about, oh, this is gonna be a radical life changing moment.

C And think about them more as, oh, I'm just gonna do this little experiment and see how it is, and That kind of lowers the bar. I have a a good friend that does this sort of thing with different skills. So She, every year, chooses a different hobby to to do. So 1 year, maybe it's something like, I don't know, knitting or or something really, silly how or simple rather, probably not silly. And it really lowers the bar. So it's less about, oh, this I need to be absolutely perfect and get all my ducks in a row. And it's more about, oh, this is just an experiment. And if it goes wrong for the next 6 months, 6 months is a great little timeline, then that's fine.

C And I think that's the first thing, experiments. I think the second thing is just there's a lot out there. And there's a lot of these programs, like OnDeck or, a lot of these communities like Architeckeys, I think, Dave has teal, which is a really cool kind of program I wanna shout out make a little shout out there. I think there's so much out there that you're almost probably gonna have more of a problem, like, filtering rather than how than choosing something.

B Evelyn, you know, the one of the things that I think keeps coming up in the series is we're touching into technology a lot and specifically this old I I feel like it's like a universe of people that exist in the tech space that came out of architecture. So I wanted to start by asking you to share, like, a little bit more about tech culture and what it's like to work in tech and how you see that as different or similar to the cultural environment that we all know coming out of architecture studios.

A Yeah. I think how What's really interesting is how technology really places an emphasis on nurturing the development of their people. And you have to consider that this is an industry where the average length of an engineer in Silicon Valley is, like, 1.75 5 to 2 years. Yet all of these technology firms, especially pre pandemic when everything was so competitive, how Put so much energy into the professional development of these individuals to attract and retain how and recruit top level talent. So the biggest difference that I see having how spent, you know, quite a number of years in traditional practice. And just the way that technology firms and tech in general nurture people, how And it it creates these super, like, ridiculously friendly environments too. I I don't know how to describe it, but every so Prior to working at Slack, I was an outside consultant to a lot of technology firms. But inside of Slack, you know, I just I wanna say Slack is one of the nicest companies that I've ever worked at.

A I also and I've said this before, but day 1 during onboarding, how People are telling you and reminding you you have gone through a rigorous process to get here. You are here because how You are talented, and you have something to contribute. So have a voice day 1. And I don't I mean, that just little mindset shift there From kind of day 1 at an architecture firm or I think I don't know. I view day 1 at an architecture firm more like how The 1st day of school in a way where you're, like, introduced to the cafeteria of, like, here's where the principals are. Here's our IT staff. These are the various different neighborhoods or project types that our people are working on. And if you're lucky, you can make your way through these groups to the prince like, the how The seat at the principles table.

A I just for me, that's that's a a very different mindset and approach to the development of individuals, especially considering the high turnover that really creates this super ridiculously friendly, I don't know, environment to to work at at in tech.

B You're reminding me and telling that story, one of my Less happy days starting out at an architecture firm. I started and got hired to help with marketing. And the 1st day, The principal was like, oh, we have a marketing deadline. I'm gonna need you to start on this deadline today. And it was the hardest onboarding day

A of my life. Just I don't think you've ever told me that story.

B Panic. No. I'll tell you who it is later, but it was, kind of one of those moments that I was like, okay. I'm in the deep end. Here we go. And, you know, one of the other things that stood out to me was that it was helpful that Kat kind of validated this idea that there's some generational differences going on and, you know, her point of view as feeling like a senior staff member at Google versus feeling like a very young staff person in an how environment stood out to me. I mean, I think that's that's at the heart of, when I when I think about people saying that millennials and, how I guess, Gen z, that they're impatient. It's like, yeah.

B We are impatient. You know? We see we see our peers finding ways to lead at this point in their career. And then when you feel like you're being held back or viewed as too young, it's demoralizing, to be honest. And, you know, I think people in those generations wanna find ways to contribute now. And so if you're not creating ways for them to contribute, then they're probably frustrated in some way, and and that's the design problem to figure out. Like, how can you how give them some kind of agency now.

A Yeah. I also think that talks to kind of risk, And we've been having a lot of conversations or I've been having a lot of conversations about how the older generation of architects tend to show up a certain way and the level of formality that they consistently portray, I think, out of their own necessity to present that way and how that is in conflict with kind of the informality of everyone Zooming from their homes And kind of the need to just have a little bit more emotional intelligence around what's going on in the world right now. So I think that also speaks to kind of to a level of risk and how we show up, where in tech, I think people are encouraged to take risks And, you know, they're encouraged to fail because with you know, they're literally told you learn by failing, and then we can how Take those lessons and move on. I mean, that doesn't happen in an architecture firm. I feel like I I get I get beaten up if the title block is wrong. You know, I, I there's just, like, less opportunity. How I feel like I'm held back from growing because I need to make sure that everything I present is at a formal level. How And, yeah, that makes me triple check my work, but at the same time, it makes me focus on things that I think how In a way, are there and I understand the formality and the need to show up that way, but in a way, it's less productive how To the growth of the individual, if that makes sense.

B Yeah. I I relate to that a lot because I think, similarly, I I remember, like, people in marketing, They would say, oh my gosh. You spelled a word wrong. You have an error. And then it would turn into this mountain of, like, oh my gosh. How dare you. You had an error. And it's like, yeah.

B People have errors. It's normal. That's a normal part of work. But when you hyperfocus on errors, it creates this, like it makes people feel, like, more concerned about acting where they're they're messing up and makes them risk averse and makes them feel like they can't how to take risks in some ways. And it it just I think I understand that from the idea of protecting the health, safety, welfare of, you know, the public and the work that architects are doing, but I think that we have to scale, like, when it's appropriate to, view mistakes in that way. Typing the wrong in a paragraph is minor. Getting your, structural drawings wrong is major. You know? I know you just have to find a balance within, like, where is it that you have to dig in more aggressively.

A How Right. But I also think there's plenty of learning opportunities, right, outside of big structural documents that we could be giving our younger professionals To make those mistakes too. So I think there's a way to present those opportunities and to how To build that into the firm and your processes, that gives that gives the younger staff the freedom and the ability to develop that way. How I feel like everything is such a, you know, like, you have to earn your way to the top in architecture. And it's how It's it makes for an extra competitive environment that doesn't really lend itself to, like, a collaborative A collaborative process, which we always talk about being such, like, a collaborative group of individuals. I I just feel I I just feel it. Like, you can feel it down in your your bones, like, when you show up every day at tech. It's just, there's just a weight how that isn't present there.

A For me, that was more present in architecture firms. So there was a part of the conversation that you guys went into. And I I kinda let you guys run on it having been on the other side of it. That strike like, that talked about struggling on whether or not to get your license. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about your own experience there?

B Yeah. I do. And and this is probably a very vulnerable topic for me to talk about, so I will say that it's not perfectly thought out, and I wanna share what I how think at where I'm at right now, but it's been a process. And and I can say when I when I started out, when I came out of how I knew I really wanted to be an architect, and I spent a lot of time pursuing that path with, like, a lot of determination and persistence. And how I I definitely thought I was gonna go all the way to get licensed and be a practicing architect. But by the time that I've decided to take a step back and pause on licensing, I just was really burnt out, honestly, from the whole experience of trying to get licensed and feeling like I was, you know, running up against a wall, like, over and over. And it started like, people who've heard me speak before, they know that I graduated into the great recession, which was a terrible time to come out of college and try to start a career in architecture. So I got a really bumpy start, and that kinda how Put me into this, roundabout career where I was trying to stay in and stay connected to the field.

B It's ultimately how I landed a role doing marketing. And, you know, it's it's funny. Even as I try to tell this story, I can hear, like, my mentors along the way, high like, things that they would have said to me about getting licensed. And, it's a hard story to tell for me because it's so attached to my identity. And at the heart of it, I guess, there's a part of me that just feels like I failed because I I'm still not licensed, which I hate. You know, I really hate that I feel that way because I'm really proud of the things that I've done in my career even though I've had some obstacles. But I know that there's, like, you know, architects who they work so hard to become licensed, and they feel like there's Something they have to protect about that. My vision for when I set out was that I thought I'd become how A PM or, you know, like, I'd be leading a team in some way.

B I'd be heading towards a firm management leadership role because I always envisioned myself being an owner of a firm and working closely with the partners on the firm management issues. But when I landed a designer role and I had a couple, and I started working on my IDP hours, it was really clear to me that when you start working, You're really in a production role in those 1st several years, and, unfortunately, there isn't a lot of time allocated towards guidance and mentorship, and there's just a lot of hierarchy, and there's a lot of learning that you have to go through to how Grow into the role. But kind of again and again, I felt a bit isolated. I I didn't really feel like I was able to have meaningful and full and honest conversations with people on projects, and, and I definitely couldn't lead due to being at the bottom of the hierarchy. And I just kinda felt like I was a gear in a machine. So it took me a while, but, basically, there was a point where I realized that My joy comes from working and collaborating with people. I love listening to people and communicating with them and using my leadership abilities to bring people together behind a bigger purpose. So leadership's definitely really important to me.

B But when I try to offer that part of myself As a designer, as a young professional in the field, it often felt received with very mixed results. Sometimes I felt like it they didn't how know what to do with it. They were very confused by it in one instance or one office. I think another, how Maybe they were a little threatened. Like, who she thinks she is? And it was like, okay. Well, I guess I need to hide this part of myself. They don't want it. And I started bending who I was into what I thought that the job needed me to be.

B And what I learned is that the more that I did that, the more unhappy I felt over time. And it finally reached a point when I needed to take a step back and refocus, like, on the things that made me happy.

A And I I just wanna interject a little bit there. How I've always kinda struggled with this notion that, you know, when people say you've graduated architecture school, you can do so many different things. But then when you how Try to go out and do so many different things. The architecture profession is telling you, like, woah. What are you doing? I mean, personally, because I do have how my license. But that was really because I felt like because I because I love the people in this profession, but I knew that they wouldn't listen how to me unless I got my license. And if I wanted to have a certain level of dialogue with those individuals, then I how needed to get my license. So it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't necessarily about health, safety, and welfare.

A And I actually think it's Funny because if you ask any architect why they become an architect, and that's what the focus of licensure is, I don't know a single architect out there that's gonna say I became an architect to protect the health, safety, and welfare of how The public. So I I think there should be a distinction between architect and licensed architect because even the general public don't know the difference, Don't know we go through this credentialing process to get licensed, but I yeah. I mean, I've really always struggled by how quickly we box. We we place a box around our own profession, yet we are trying to tell our clients to be more creative about how they approach how There are buildings, and we come out of school telling the next generation they can do anything, or they can do so much. And then we just kind of box them in and place them in these production roles and then yeah. But I've I've always struggled with that.

B Yeah. And I felt frustrated. Like, I didn't have I mean, I had I had mentors that were trying to help me find my way, but they didn't know quite how to, like, how Position me in the firm to give me that leadership role within the constraints that the firm had in terms of how they viewed hierarchy through the process of growing in Affirm. And and so I I just like, right now, I just I've I've taken a step back from it. I, like, needed some time to how reset my values. And so what makes me happy right now is just building my business and figuring out how to contribute back to the profession in a way that helps other people who are Maybe in the same position I was where they, you know, feel, like, not heard or stuck, and how they need someone to reach in and help them figure out their way forward. But I get really excited. Like, I wanna I wanna spend my time.

B I don't wanna spend my time reading ARE books. I wanna spend my time reading, like, Harvard Business Review and Forbes and Future Forum articles and and really think about ways to bring best practices into the industry that are, like, not currently there and help that next its iteration of where the industry is heading.

A Yeah. And I think if if we take you know, if any of our listeners take away anything from this, how And I've actually talked to a lot of mid career architects that are reassessing where they are. But, you know, Kat talked about sunk costs. I think everyone who goes through this profession or the majority of the people that go through this profession and end up and land in practice, think about, like, all of the time and education and money they put into architecture, and how could we ever step away from that? I think the reframe there is we spent so much time in architect like, time and money in architecture that we bring a unique perspective to other roles. How So how do I take all of that learning and reapply it somewhere else? I think it's kind of the healthier way to look at that. And, hopefully, if how If anything, you know, practice disrupted, the practice of architecture shows that you are not alone in this way of thinking. That was a big struggle for me that I've mentioned several times about how isolating it is, that kind of the the decision to make how To step away from from the normal path. And Kat said it best during the interview when she said you you have a mon you have a monopoly on being yourself, And I think you, you know, you are you are truly unique because of that, architecture and your architecture background.

A Applying that to other areas make you even that much more unique. And even though she talked about all of this money being how Thrown, into this sector because there's literally, like, 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars of opportunity in the AEC industry. Kat is an interesting one because even though she's kinda made the switch, she she also said, you know, so much needs to be done in the in the world of atoms over bits. So she still has this, like, unique love for the actual built part of the built environment, which I was never good at. How But I appreciate but I can definitely appreciate kind of her perspective on that.

B Yeah. I think my my Other favorite thing that she said in the interview is just that you know, like, what's best for you, and you have to kinda listen to yourself because that that's gonna be how the way that you find your north arrow through this career is to listen to kinda your heart and and what how you're really saying to yourself. Yeah.

A I think that's an excellent place to end. So thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice this of ARC. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

A And if you wanna take your career practice to the next level. Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, and we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

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A How Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing from. Thanks for listening, and see you next