Taking the Leap from Architecture into Tech

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, listeners. How Today, we are bringing on the founders of Architecchi, which I'm really excited about because we've mentioned this group, this free Slack group multiple times. And I was first introduced to them many years ago when I was looking at transitioning my career by Robert from Monograph, how who was talking to me about a group of architects then. It was more like a handful of architects that made a transition to the tech world, and they've started this community. How And the really interesting thing about Architec y is now it's grown so big that it's actually also attracting engineers who have companies in this space that really see the value in bringing architecture or architecturally trained individuals into their company.

A So today, we're talking to Blake and Leona. Janine, why don't you just jump into Leona's bio?

B Sure. Liana Huddleston currently leads a team of product and design leaders at the Netflix studio innovation team, an innovative team responsible for Netflix multibillion dollar investments into the expansive content offerings. Leona is also a serial entrepreneur and angel investor Aster in both start up and creative communities. She is also the cofounder of Architeckee, helping bridge architecture practice and the tech industry.

A How Blake Huddleston is an entrepreneur, design leader, and educator based in San Francisco. After studying architecture how In urban planning at CCA or the California College of Arts and Cal Poly, Blake spent 3 years working as an architect at SOM and Studios Architecture how before transitioning to becoming a user experience designer. Blake then went on to work at the design consultancy's MATTER and Method, where he designed products for some of the world's leading technology companies. His next step took him to Google's advanced technology and project group, A Skunk Works technology incubator at Google, where he helped design the world's 1st smart garment platform called Jacquard. How Blake currently works at Atomic, a venture's capital fund and start up incubator where he is launching new products and company. He also is serving as an adjunct professor to his alma mater, CCA, where he teaches in the graduate design program. In 2016, is when Blake cofounded Architecchio with Leota, and we are going to learn more about that today. Let's cut to the interview.

C So, so I studied urban planning at Cal Poly, and then I did my m r at CCA, California College of the Arts, how San Francisco, and spent way more time in school than I'd like to admit. It was 8 years total. And then I went and I worked as an architect for almost 3 years. I worked at SOM. I worked at Studios Architecture in San Francisco. And, you know, through some frustrations that I had with the field and more opportunity that I saw in the the tech industry that I wanted to explore, I ended up deciding to leave my job at SOM in around 2015 and go and try working in this this kind of new and emerging field called user experience design, which obviously we all know now really well. But even 5 years ago, it was kind of less known, especially in the architect community. And at that time, Leona was working as a product designer at Autodesk.

C We'd both come home from work every day. How We talk about our days. You know, I'd hear about the awesome work that Leona was doing as a UX designer, and it just seemed more interesting than what I was doing as an architect. How And I decided after many months of kind of thinking about transitioning into something else that I was gonna try it, and I gave myself how 3 months, I've kinda made a deal with myself. I said, alright. 3 months, I'm gonna go try and find work as a as a UX designer. And if I failed, how I didn't like it. I could always go back to architecture.

C And, after a bunch of interviews, at various tech companies in San Francisco, I finally ended up landing a job at an an up and coming design agency called Matter. And, I got to work on how A bunch of cool projects that kind of bridge the digital and physical worlds. So it was a really good introduction for me into the tech industry. And, you know, after some time how Working at MATTER, I went to another design agency called Method, and I worked on a bunch of innovation projects there, designing products for the Department of Defense, how DNA sequencing company, a ARVR app, and a bunch more. And after about 2 years after leaving architecture In working as a product designer, I had worked on almost 10 separate projects that spanned industries of health and entertainment how In defense and hardware design and consumer goods and real estate.

A That's definitely a broader portfolio than you would get in that same amount of time at an how

C Exactly. And and and that was the precise reason that I was kind of unhappy is I was working on projects that were just many, many years long, and I didn't have the variety of work that I really wanted to. And so I kinda dip my toe into the design agency world and and that frankly just had a blast doing it. And then, I got a call from a how small innovation group at Google called Google ATAP, which is advanced technology and projects group. And I ended up joining helping to design kinda the next generation of technology projects. And generally, that group looks at projects like 5 or 10 years into the future, so they're kind of a bit more on the research side. And I end up joining and working on a new project called Jacquard. And Jacquard is a platform that integrates technology into everyday objects, how Like your jacket or your shoes or even your couch at home.

C And one of our first collaborations was with Levi's where we how Took one of their well known trucker jackets, and we built in a new sleeve, essentially. And it had our kind of special conductive fabric woven in. How And you could do things like brush the sleeve with your hand to control your digital devices without taking your phone out. And so this was meant to unlock this whole new paradigm of interacting with your devices and explore this kind of future of how technology how Become more human and more naturally integrated into our everyday lives. So I had a lot of fun and worked there for a couple years. And then most recently, I ended up joining another company called Atomic. And Atomic is a company that starts companies, which is very meta. It's basically part venture capital fund and part start up incubator.

C And so rather than write checks how To other entrepreneurs, like most VCs do, it only funds ideas that come from inside its its own 4 walls. Mhmm. Since joining Atomic in 2020, I've had the opportunity to help start 3 new companies. One is a company that builds backyard ADUs. Another is a company that sells really beautifully designed emergency preparation kits. How And the 3rd is a company that provides really fun, interactive virtual events online that you can take from experts all over the world.

A Those are 3 companies given the state and climate of where we are right now that I feel are taking off.

C Yeah. They were I mean, they were born out of the constraints that COVID presented us.

A Yeah. Liana, how about you?

D So I am currently, at Netflix, leading and building a team of product and design leaders creating technologies to power Netflix Studio. And if you guys, are a member of Netflix USC, we have this infinite catalog of content we're making every year. So our team, is responsible for the innovations behind Netflix's studio and, helping us to create the best content for our members. We're working in a space where in Hollywood or filmmaking industries, technologies, or even software are not that common. This type of innovation is not that common. And so, it's been really fun, I would say. For the past 3 years, we're helping Netflix how to scale from, you know, 5 to 10 original titles. Now to last year, we launched more than 700 titles, globally.

D So, yeah, in addition to working at Netflix leading, you know, a team of really exceptional product and design leaders, I myself is also a serial entrepreneur. I've founded a multiple companies, ranging from VC funded to bootstrapped, startups, And just making and launching products just gets me up every day. And lastly, I would say I am pretty Actively involved in the NGO investment community focusing on both tech startups as well as the creative industry. So, if you have heard about the, spatial syndicates, that's one of the angel investment syndicates, spun out of the RD Techie community. So slightly different than Blake's journey coming into tech how Industry, I actually stumbled upon architecture by accident. I would say it's the reverse way. Since I was a kid, I actually really loved hacking. I loved building websites and how creating, you know, user interfaces at the time.

D I remember when I was 13 years old, back in the day when there was still, macromedia flash Bye, Flash. Adobe just killed it last year.

A Although I have stumbled across a few architecture firm sites how already that. I don't know if they have completely realized that. Oh, I know. Keep going.

D Yeah. Sounds pretty, typical. Yeah. Adam, I made my, first ecommerce website, when I was 13 and basically flipping, used play Playstations, consoles at the time, to people who are, like, 20 years older than me. So loved it, and I think that really seeded my kind of entrepreneurial journey. And then when I was going to college, trying to how Choose a major, and I dabbled between computer animation and the new media, but I just really hated the concept of sitting in front of a computer every day or the computer lab, like, 10 hours how today just to render something or, coding, websites. And, I was really drawn into the architecture school. And as many of you know, how Even interaction with product design, even today, isn't a very common major in our universities or colleges.

D And so back in the day, that was, you know, 12 years ago, 15 years ago, and there was no such a thing called interaction with user experience design. And so I was really drawn to, architecture school, where I get to learn about humanity. I get to learn about the history, the context, the science behind why create instead of just rendering, and creating models all the time. So I was drawn into architecture school and I went to architecture school at CCA, California College of the Arts, and that's actually where I met Blake, how our personal journey started together. However, it was by accident, I would say the summer of 2011 and, when we were just recovering from the recession. And as you also know, architecture is an industry that's completely relying on the economic condition. So when I how Seek it out for internships at the time. I couldn't find any.

D I probably submitted, like, 20 applications And no one wanted to hire intern because, most of the architecture firm at the time, they were still suffering from the recession. How However, instead, that was the time when tech started to boom. And, iPhone came out 2008, the 1st generation, and then by 2010, there are just hundreds of new companies started to create, iPhone apps. So fortunately, I was able to find an internship, But instead of designing architecture, I started designing iPhone apps, and I've never looked back ever since.

A Yeah. I want to, and then, of course, the reason why we invited you both is because together you founded Architec y. So It would be great to go in and to actually hear the story about why you felt the need to start this community.

D Yeah. I can talk about the name really quick because I love puns. And, I would say it was back in 2014, 15 When Leighton and I, we had many friends from school and from our adjacent, architect communities Reaching out to us individually and asking for feedback or advice on how to transition into how Working as a designer or engineer in the tech industry. That was the time some of the biggest unicorns came out of the Bay Area. And then that was also the time, like Blake mentioned earlier, when he was working at SOM and I was working at Autodesk, And our offices were just few blocks apart on Marcus Street in San Francisco. And every day I will Get off of work at 4 PM. Finish all my work and I will grab dinner and go to his office to meet him And so we can go home together. But I feel like every time I'm, when I arrived at his office after 6 PM, that was just His stay really started.

C I was just catching my 2nd wind.

D Yeah. Exactly. I I still remember how, how many nights I was hanging out at Asilen's office, it was full house till 1 AM. How Everyone was still there and working really hard and, why I was just there watching Netflix. So that was a time I think a lot of how Architects, especially our friends, started to see that contrast, working as a designer, The work life balance they're getting, the impact they're getting, comparing to, you know, the designers working in the tech industry becomes So much more, marginal, and so we had a lot of friends reaching out to us. And quickly we found out It's just becoming unscalable if we spend 1 hour or so more to talk to each individual friend. So we Gathered some of our friends who went through very similar journey and then started a first a lecture with a, fireside Chat, and then that was really well received. We have close to 50 people showed up, for our first how Fireside chat.

C 65. We we thought 10 or 15 people would show up, and 65 people showed up.

D How Six x. There you go. Yeah. That that's, and then, that's how we started. And then we started to formalize this community And really trying to make it helpful for more and more people who wanted to transition between these 2 industries.

C Yeah. So, you know, we a lot of a lot of folks are reaching out to us. And as Liana said, we just felt like After the 30th coffee date, we needed to better scale ourselves. And, you know, as she mentioned, we put together this event. We invited how 5 of our our close friends who had transitioned from architecture to tech successfully. They were working in ARVR, cryptocurrency. 1 is working at a how As a software engineer at Uber, Leona was, I think, working at her own software company by then. I was working as a product designer.

C And we basically just kinda talked about, our experiences, and it was super well received. The way that I remember, like, the the word the name Architeki coming up is Leona during the event saying to me, how You know who you are? You're you split your time between architecture and tech. You're an architect y. Mhmm. And I didn't I didn't know if it was accusatory or if it was, like, congratulatory. How But for some reason, that name stuck around. And so we ended up calling our our sort of ragtag group of former architects who now worked in tech, architecty. And, and that turned into, you know, a bunch of other things.

C Right? So, more people reached out to us after that event. They asked for, like, more tactical workshops where we'd walk through what a product designer actually does because a lot of architects at how time we're interested in going into product design. And so we we then held a half day workshop that kind of was like how to become a product designer 101. How That also sold out, which is really surprising to us. And we just realized that, especially, in the Bay Area, a lot of architects We're just not super satisfied with the jobs that they were working on, and a lot were really, really interested in exploring roles outside of traditional practice. And we've we realized we were not the only ones that shared this sentiment and thought, hey. There's probably how so many more people in the AEC industry across the world who are interested in working in technology. And so how We started a Slack community.

C We didn't advertise it or anything. We just let people started kind of sharing it word-of-mouth. How And then fast forward to now, and I think we have over 1200 really amazing people from around the world that are active in the community, and it essentially runs itself. How And so people share knowledge and advice. They mentor one another. They post jobs. They share events. It's a really beautiful thing.

C And when people find out about this architect y community. The overwhelming reaction we hear is, I can't believe it took me so long to discover this gem.

A Mhmm.

C And it's just it it makes us so happy because it just it turned out as kind of this, like, this funny thing, and it has actually turned into sort of the serious thing where people get real value.

B I have referred people to Architec in, like, the last week, so I know there's still a lot of people out there searching for this. How and I wonder you know, you say you had, like, 30 coffee dates early on with people to go over some of these conversations. Were there themes that you noticed that showed up across those conversations that were pretty, consistently present?

C 100%. So what I noticed, first and foremost, is that, when someone was kind of Starting to transition from architecture into product design or some version of that. Some people were doing software engineering or how management, but mostly product design. I was seeing that a lot of portfolios became these kind of hybrid, portfolios architecture work mixed with product design work. Mhmm. And a lot of folks had were struggling with just getting the right portfolio projects to actually get hired. And what I kept iterating to people was that your portfolio shouldn't be a summary of what you've done. It should showcase the work that you wanna do.

C You know, if you think about it, like, if you wanna go work as a VR designer, no company is just gonna hire you if you don't have any VR projects in your portfolio. But I get that request a lot from architects. They wanna go work in VR. Say, okay. Can you show me some VR? They say, I don't have any. Right? So how What that mean what I what I tell a lot of people is go out and create some conceptual projects on your own and learn the ins and outs of what it means how do whatever you wanna do, whether it's, you know, building VR environments if we just kind of move forward with this example. You know, maybe you need to learn Unity how or you need to learn some front end coding. And, you know, it might sound like a no brainer, but very few people actually do this.

C So, you know, for me, I struggle with the same exact thing. I was kind of calling, like, calling myself an architect slash UX designer. And what I found was that how Recruiters and hiring managers at tech companies, just are really confused by that. I think a lot of people outside of architecture how Just fundamentally don't really understand what architects do on a day to day basis. They think they're, like, drafting blueprints all day or something, and they don't really understand how well rounded, how Architects actually are, but, also, it's up to, you know, someone transitioning out of architecture to be really, really clear, Like, how their skills translate into skills that are are needed and necessary in the in the tech industry. How So what I did, and this is generally the advice that I provide, is I had, like, 4 or 5 pretty rough interviews when I was first applying for product design roles, mainly because I had this kind of Frankenstein portfolio. And what I finally discovered was that I needed to wipe all of my architecture work out of my portfolio. And what I did is I just created an archive tab on my our site, and I dumped everything in there, and I started fresh.

C I locked myself in my room for 4 weeks. I worked 14 hour days just on my portfolio alone.

B Oh my goodness.

C And then at the end of it, I had 4 pretty solid conceptual product design projects that walked through every step of the way that how clearly articulated and showed that I understood how to design digital products. And after I sent that out, my response rate from recruiters how went through the roof. Because they they finally understood why I actually did, and I was no longer stuck in this kind of middle space.

A Yeah. And I I wanted to center in on your how your overall story a little bit, like, only because you came from architecture and traditional practice and and poor Leona having to spend long how Nights in the studio with you. You know, I I feel that, like, what you're talking about, you know, I I feel like some architects are like, that's the loss of my identity. Right? You're you're telling me to kind of wipe out my life Yeah. Wipe out my life's work to this point. So I I wanna go a little bit deeper on that, but also this notion that you kind of gave yourself 3 months. Like, what was it like how for you stepping away from architecture and then kind of coming to the conclusion that you just kinda had to leave it all behind you if you wanna take how next step. Because I feel like that that transition is such a hard struggle for a lot of a lot of people that are thinking, I wanna go to Tuck, but they're not quite ready to fully embrace it the way it needs to be embraced.

C Yeah. Honestly, it was easier to step away from traditional practice than I even thought. And I think things have frankly changed over the last 5 years because there's just the the the UX and product design field is more saturated. How And back in 2015, everybody every company was hiring, and there just was never enough supply of product designers. Mhmm. So I think in in part, I was pretty fortunate how should be be there at the right time. But I think I think the toughest thing for me was walking away from the field that I had spent a decade in school and how And, you know, 3 years working with 100 of 1,000 of dollars in student loans. Not to mention, I had a really good job at one of the most respected architecture firms.

C And, you know, how You're saying you're you work in architecture. It sounds cool and people respect you, and that's all great. I think it's it's kind of interesting because architects Think they're at the sort of the top of the food chain when it comes to design fields. And when I told my colleagues that I wanted to go leave this all behind and how this new field called UX design. People looked at me like I was crazy. Like, what do you wanna go do? What do you like and, You know, I I just I had this this feeling, and it really was a feeling, that my skills that I had acquired in architecture school how and practice as an architect would translate well into allied design fields, like, you know, UX, industrial design, ARVR, how Visual design, mainly because I I'd seen a few of my other friends just do it in Excel. And, frankly, how And frankly, I just wasn't particularly happy working as an architect, so I told myself, hey. What's the worst that can happen if I leave my job? I can I can always go back? And, I don't know.

C I I was just really fascinated with the power and the scalability of software. And being in San Francisco, I was surrounded by We are surrounded by companies having just massive impact on the world, companies like Airbnb, Uber, Apple. And I was just so curious, Really, I was just you know, I I wanted to find out how these companies were being built. And I just came to the conclusion that I could either go work at these companies how and build products that potentially billions of users could touch and use every day, or it could stay working as an architect how and design the office buildings in which these product designers would be building these next generation technologies.

A And those are in question right now too.

C How Exactly. Exactly. And that and that's exactly what I was doing. I was literally designing, like, headquarters for Google, and, I was just I was just more interested in designing the actual products that Google was designing, frankly. And when I finally did land a job as a product designer, I loved how my crazy ideas were actually welcomed and how experimentation was welcomed. Whereas I always felt kind of constrained in architecture, how Constrained by budgets, by code, by liability, by whims of the clients, and software essentially felt like the inverse. I was I was asked to really push hard on experimental design, design for as many users as I possibly can. Don't worry about code because, hey, there's no building code.

C And then meeting new people outside my friends' group, which at that time was all architects, and they started hanging out with other entrepreneurs, how with other software engineers, with design strategists, and just kind of expanding my scope of friends. And I don't know. In general, I just felt more challenged. And, You know, when you're when you're working in software, processes for building things are always changing. And to be successful, you just have to be an infinite learner, how Which is who I am, and that's just so much more exciting to me to always be kind of changing and and learning more.

A I have always felt, like, the crush between architecture and tech because it's happening all at in this one place in the Bay Area. How And coming out of business school and seeing what all my friends in business school got to do in the tech industry. Like, it just really like, I don't I don't know. Like, the the difference in in culture and Kind of the value, like, how value is placed on people, you know, reflected in their, You know, the salaries and benefits, like, the gap was just it's revealed so much more prevalently. I don't know, in the Bay how But, yeah, I get a lot of that. Leonardo, I like to circle back on your story because you're this incredible entrepreneur who saw, Like, the need for a more human centered approach to design, oddly enough, which is why you ended up in architecture. How My my biggest question for you is, like, what are the top skills that you learned from your background, like, from the education in architecture how that, like, helped accelerate your ability to design or be a better entrepreneur. Like, what when people think about, like, what how Skills that I learned in architecture school that are gonna really push me forward and into this type of space.

D Yeah. So as a how Hiring manager at Netflix right now. I interview designers, product managers, engineers on a day to day basis. How And every time when I see someone's resume come through and there was architecture education, I immediately immediately pay special attention and just, how Single this person out. And the reason I say this is because I think the biggest well, there are 2 things, 2 biggest Benefits that I've gained from going to architecture school, and number 1 is developing really thick skin as a designer or entrepreneur. I just remember when we were in school, I was destroyed by, my, how postbusters or, colleagues at the time, through design crit almost every week. And it's that kind of resilience and it's that kind of practice of critical thinking and, Design craft really enabled me to become a much more, I will say refined designer, which is a lot of other, disciplines, if designers coming from other disciplines that they didn't go through this type of rigorous, design crit culture. And sometimes, you know, they they can't even take, the smallest feedback.

D And then especially at Netflix is very much, I'm sure a lot of people have seen, the candor, the candid culture, the radical candor, in in, a Netflix that we would just walk to someone and give them very direct, unfiltered feedback right away with all the good intention. I think it's not for everyone. It's it's a kind of a cultural difference. However, because of my experience working, studying in architecture school, I I I became a lot more resilient to criticism, And I will go pitch to VCs all the time, and I got all the rejections, but that never really turned me down. And I would just continue, and I will continue to iterate on my design when I was still designing based on all the feedback. So I think that's one thing that was extremely valuable for me in the architecture school. And then second of all, I think it's the work Ethics that I developed in architecture school. I was just telling Blake the other day.

D I was like, I can't Imagine if I can pull, like, 3 all nighters again. I did that in architecture school, but right now, I get So grumpy, if I don't go to sleep at 11 PM. So I think that really, It's really that, work ethic, I developed in architecture school and also just, built that strength for me as a designer, as a, as an entrepreneur. You know, this go getter, spirit. And I think that was extremely valuable.

B I you know, and I actually, Evelyn, I'm glad you asked that question because I was gonna ask, like, the same thing I was hearing in the way he was talking, and correct me if I'm wrong, this can you speak more specifically to the skills that you saw transferable? I mean, From what I heard, it sounded like the design piece was really where you took the biggest takeaway into your career in tech.

C Yeah. So, I mean, you leave you leave architecture school with just a litany of different skill sets. I think people think of the kinda common ones. Like, you can draw and diagram things and how Use a bunch of different three d modeling software. But I think there's there's software skills too, which was also really helpful for me, like how Thinking through complex systems. You know, you think about, when I was working as an architect, I was working on these mega scale projects overseas in Asia how We're we're working with, like, 50 consultants at a time and all these interlocking BIM models, and it's just a really complex space. And that really helped me when I went into the tech industry and worked on hybrid digital physical products with a bunch of different types of people from software engineers to design strategists to product managers, and, really feeling like I was in the center of of that, just like kind of an architect feels, which is essentially you know, architects are essentially cap, how Team captains of of built projects kinda ushering things through. So there's a lot of parallels there.

C I think I know I mean, I don't wanna speak for myself, but I felt like my communication skills increased significantly just being an architecture school and how Working as an architect and being forced to advertise your designs, defend them, and talk about how Complex things with whether it was, like, design theory or, you know, more pragmatic stuff day to day with clients and just being on the spot and having to how communicate complex ideas in a simple manner that maybe people who don't really understand design very well have to understand. And then I I think just to zoom out a little bit, having a really critical eye in the world is one thing that I developed when I was in architecture. That's one how Thing that you realize when you leave architecture school is you see the world much differently than when you started. And I think the last thing is knowing a a little bit about a lot of things in the world. I like I feel like some of my architect friends are still some of the most interesting people that I hang out with. And I don't know really what it is about going to school or working as an architect, but, I feel like you just kind of you become a well rounded person. And how All of those things have just helped me immensely in working in the tech industry. And, you know, I think about, the book, The Pattern Pattern Language

A Pattern Language. Yep.

C By Christopher Alexander. I I found that book when I was in architecture school, how And I loved it. It's like, I still keep it on my desk today. And it's funny because that now is, like, coming back through, like, the tech industry in these different circles.

A They're, like, talking about VCs talking

C about VCs talk about it. Software engineers talk about it, and I love that. You know? I think how There's so much, you know, everybody can learn from, maybe what architects already know. And, yeah.

D Yeah. I was add on to that. I think one of the thing besides the soft skills that I gained from how Study architecture, in school. Another thing as a, someone working in the tech industry right now, I think I really miss this notion of, intellectual rigor and discourse, in in in tech industry where, you know, architecture was really fundamentally a domain, you know, when I was studying, in school, a domain and practice dealing with some of the most complex and societal implications. And in a I think this is something We haven't had because product design with UX design, it's still fairly a new role, a new profession. And the tech industry, as we all know, is very much driven by engineering and computer science at the very beginning. So, oftentimes, it wasn't developed through a human perspective. So Only until recently, we started to see this level sort of discussion or discourse that's happening in the tech industry, like AI, ML, ethics, or the health of users' online behaviors.

D But I think it's still very much new, and sometimes even marginal, in the tech industry. It's just something I really wanna see more and more, and that's why something I wanna see more and more architects, can come in where folks study architecture can come in to work in tech and help how Develop this type of thinking.

B And I wanna come back to this question about your entrepreneurial journey because, you guys have started to touch on it, but I for me, I'm curious when you started identifying as entrepreneurs and started making the shift towards, being I mean, in your opening, you talked so much about all your multiple passions around this industry. You're stepping in a lot of different roles right now, so how did that kinda evolve towards having so many opportunities for you?

D So I will say it's very much of a sort of personal journey, and I think, this Kind of tied up to what Blake was talking about earlier. When you're practicing in architecture, because it's so complex and, there's lots of lots of risk. Right? And, and so oftentimes, I think because of the liability and, the risk architecture firms, or companies may need to take. And oftentimes, it really creates a constraint. And then, the design itself or the designers become a lot more risk averse. And I think for me, personally, I Love taking risk. I love jumping into problems and making it happen. And so when I was in school, I saw that gap where, you know, it would take many, many years.

D And, I mean, Blake can speak to this too for his Actual project he's done in architecture firm. It took, 5 years even just see one of his Projects, being made and being used by, the intended users, occupants. So for me, I never had the patience. I was just like, this takes too long. I need to move fast and jump in right away. And so I think what really resonant with me about this notion of founding companies and entrepreneur, or being an entrepreneur is I can move really fast if I develop a hypothesis about, problems I see. And I can just quickly iterate and build it and build a prototype, iterate on top of it based on the feedback and test it out and see if it works. And if it doesn't, why not? And and I would just keep moving forward.

D And I think, obviously, I have not worked in architecture professionally, but I think it's the pace that really drove me into building companies and building products and, how Iterate quickly.

A If they haven't started yet throughout this podcast, Leona, you have some people probably how you on LinkedIn and seeing if there's any openings, on your content intelligence team because they know that when Their architect's, background comes across Yeah. That you'll pay more attention. I'm wondering how For you now, you know, I think you can only be so lucky for your resume to land in front of somebody who understands. How You know, Blake, as he says, like said what what an architect actually does. So, you know, for the majority, though, when you're how putting your resume out there and trying to talk about what you did as an architect and how that translates into tech. How How how should they be talking about what their they did and how it's highlighted so that people that are not in the architecture industry can Kind of understand what their transitional skills are.

C So I I recently had the opportunity to contribute to a new book how Called architects after architecture, and it goes into detail about how architects can apply their skills into in meaningful ways outside of traditional practice. Obviously, really apropos to this conversation. Highly encourage everyone listening to pick up a copy. It's on Amazon. And the essay that I co wrote for the book With my good friend Gavin Johns, this call is From Architecture to Tech, and it details how architects are especially well positioned how transition careers into roles in the tech industry. And so I think it's important for for architects to understand what they do now and and how to how Leverage that when they actually start transitioning. And, you know, the reality is there is so much opportunity in the tech sector for how Smart and well rounded, motivated people to contribute. A few a few roles that just kinda come to mind are, like, design technologist, how Product manager, visual designer, user experience researcher, virtual reality designer.

C I've known former architects who have successfully filled all those roles. And when folks approach me kinda asking, hey, from from the skills that I have right now as an architect, what are a few takeaways of, like, how I can position myself in that transition in in into new roles in the tech industry? And the the thing that I always start with is that the design process in architecture is nearly identical with the design process when building software. You know, one thing that architecture school teaches you is the ability to approach design problems with a rigorous approach of research, how Concepting, iterating, building, all while continuously questioning assumptions. And, you know, architects know how That to design anything properly, whether it's in the built world or the digital world, you have to first understand the problem. Right? What's the goal? How What does success look like? For example, jumping into just designing a solution without actually understanding your users how We're identifying how success will actually be measured. That's an art. Right? That's not design. And in architecture, as we all know, how Designs are developed in pretty distinct phases.

C Right? Schematic design, design development, construction documents, bidding, construction drawings. The the phase approach, design process for software is nearly identical. It's just named differently. Right? It's how Basically, planning, concept design, prototyping, testing, delivery. And, really, the main difference between those those two fields is the endpoint. Right. Software, you it's super critical to continue iterating based on the feedback that you've received from users, and, obviously, that's much harder to do in the built world. And I think I'd say the the huge advantage that software has over over the built world in in some ways.

C And another thing how That I say is architects are scrappy, and that that's really beneficial in the in the tech sector as well. Right? When you're in architecture school and you're learning new techniques And having just kinda figure things out because you're not taught everything. You're just kinda thrown in and expected to figure things out along the way. Having a high level of scrappiness is is absolutely critical to your success. Right? So you have 4 hours to make a model and the shop is closed, how You find materials in the dumpster and you create beauty from it. Right? You get this mentality of just figure it out. Right. That's that's ingrained in the DNA of architects.

C And this is especially helpful when you're moving into the technology industry where there's just so much opportunity to be resourceful and to be scrappy. And the last point, I usually make is how Our architects know that their ideas scale, and scale is obviously how What makes software so powerful. But Right. You know, if you think about, you know, architectural design can range from the small detail of the doorknob how to the scale of city block or beyond, and architects are expected to to essentially define the design languages and systems how that can scale. So they're just used to that. And architects are also really good at employing this kind of big picture thinking how and expressing their vision in really tangible terms. And this ability to communicate these complex ideas in a really simple manner to how People who don't have a good understanding of design becomes essential, when you're designing technology based experiences how that potentially are gonna impact billions of people. So those are, like, kind of the 3 big things that I usually touch on.

C And, Leona, I'm sure you have more to add.

D Yeah. I would just say every time when I, was approached by someone, an architect who's Trying to get advice and transition into, tech work in tech. I always ask them to Really think hard on why they want to work in tech. Obviously, everything Blake just, mentioned, how They could be really helpful, thinking point. I think, as we were talking earlier, there is a economic factor, how Right? And this flexibility of work life balance. But I think oftentimes, many architects I've talked to, They're so passionate about designing and architecture. And so I always asked, them to really figure it out if they just simply wanted to transition to tech because The, you know, it's it's a it's a well paid industry, and it can scale. It offers some all the flexibility in designing products for how Billions, or is this something that they really can see themselves in where, it is Still flaw, and, they are going to miss these kind of intellectually rigorous debates or discourse.

D And oftentimes, you know, a lot of our artists, including myself back in the day, I think I loved talking, we called the archi speak, and we love, just talking poetically. And I think when you, when you start to design product how For everyday people or for professionals, and you really have to start, thinking about The whole aspect of the design, and that includes the communication part. So it is quite different even though the thinking behind it and the process oftentimes can be very similar, but it's an entirely different industry. So I wanna, everyone who's listening to this podcast and interested in transitioning into working in tech, and really think hard If this is really the area that you can see yourself in the next few years.

B I'm glad you touched on that. When we interviewed Kat, we kinda had a similar chat about, you know, the intentions on why people might be moving to tech. I mean, when you guys transitioned, it was rare hair or, you know, kinda, like, just coming onto the scene. And now I feel like that I've Seen so many people I used to work with, they've entered tech out in San Francisco from architecture, and I kinda wonder if, like, some Some of them are gonna have buyer's remorse. Well, Kath,

D she just took the ARE. Right?

B I guess. Yeah. We did talk about the area a little bit too.

D Yeah. I asked her. I said, why? And because she is so passionate how still about the, built environment. So, yeah, I think there's so many things to think about when you really try to move into how And I think there's another opportunities in tech industry too. It's if you think about software, right, and Even all these middlemen, in the AEC industries, it's a industry that hasn't really been on top of their game when it comes to innovation. In product design, we have tools like Figma, and it enables designers to easily collaborate with each other And just focus on other, energy, creativity, creating things, but how That's not the reality for the AAC industry. I used to work at Autodesk, and I shouldn't throw shade here, but, I don't think Autodesk makes the best or most intuitive software, even though most of, media entertainment, the AEC industry runs on Autodesk software. But because Autodesk is one of the industry leader and there's just so much opportunity out there, Foy, the next generation start ups, entrepreneurs coming out of architecture with that background, to help change, you know, the architecture industry itself, through the lens of tech innovation.

D So I think it goes two ways.

B How Yeah. And what are what are some, like, really easy first steps that you would recommend, like, those preliminary conversations that you'd have with someone who's starting to explore this? It's like, literally in the last 2 weeks, I had 2 people reach out to me about going into UX, and, I know there's This is a more and more frequent conversation people are having.

C Join Architecie.

D First up, joining Architecie.

A One, let's tell people how to do that. And then, 2, I also I'm gonna piggyback off of Janine's question and also say The common the most common jump that people make to tech is UX design. How And you've you've mentioned some other areas that architects can go into. So so in addition to UX design, what else is out there that makes how a best reasonable fit outside of facilities and ruse where people might find a home, and then and then, yes, what are those next steps, including how do we join Arkateckee.

C Yeah. So I think I mentioned a couple of them already. I can go a little deeper. So design technologist is one. How Basically, what that means is someone understands enough about coding and prototyping and code that can they can actually build software products. How But a lot of design technologists also come from a design background, and so it's kind of like half designer, half software engineer. And I've worked with some amazing design technologists who can kinda take an idea and actually just, like, build a working prototype how really quickly, whether it's, like, using Arduinos. I mean, a lot of the design technologies I've worked with are also kind of how Bridge the gap between digital and physical worlds.

C Product manager is is 1. How This is this is a tough one because generally, the best product managers that I've worked with first of all, they have a lot of experience in working in tech, and they come from some other, how tech role, like software engineering or product design. And, essentially, what a product manager does is they like, you could assume they manage the product how the team. They're the team captain, ushering whatever software product they're building forward, and and they work very closely with engineers, how Designers, strategists, and kind of are the filter between all those teams. Visual designer, I've seen quite a few architects how Become visual designers. It's very similar to product design, except it's just much more focused on on the visuals. Right? It's, I think a very common, transition is for someone who studied, like, traditional graphic design to go become a a a visual designer. What else am I missing, Liana?

D Yeah. I will say I first asked What are you good at? What do you feel you're passionate about? Right? And then having that kind of honesty with yourself and then use that to drive into a role that can be most aligned with your interests and, even skills. So for instance, if you are super good at writing scripts with Grasshopper back in the day in school or even, you know, Revit, I think software engineer, it could be a really great role to transition into. We hardly talk about this, but we do have some really successful architecties now Leading engineering teams, at Uber, at some of the biggest companies, and because they love building things. And, we've had architecties, who's just much more interested in the solving the business problems. In that sense that they don't even need to go work in tech as a designer or engineer, and they can how just go out there and start their own company. And just to retrace what we were talking about earlier, the architect, how Architects or architecture students, we were taught in a very entrepreneurial way. Right? We were, like, 1 man, 1 woman taking on the entire project From end to end back in school.

D So it's the kind of the same approach that you would go after a problem and finding the companies. And we've seen a lot of startups these days founded by, ex architects or, folks with architecture background, and they're growing really fast. So I think the really important question to start with is, What do you think is the most relevant to your passion and your skill? And then, the second thing I will, suggest anyone who's looking to transition or pivot, is to pick a industry or a sector how And at Target, and I really try to sort of whether you're working on a portfolio, a mock portfolio, just how Get really obsessed with the problems, that, sort of, coming out of that industry, and then take it from there. And I think a lot of new, techies, the common problem I see is just that They are interested in design or engineering, but they have such a broad way to go after and to how Create their portfolio. We'll start talking to people, without much of an in-depth investigation of the industry. Right? And And then that oftentimes creates a lot of confusions. And so pick industry, define the problem, go after that problem, use that to inform Whether, combined with the skills and the interest and use that to inform, which role you wanna, go into in tech And how do you build a portfolio or take classes or boot camps and be very targeted?

C Yeah. So our website is arkateki.org, and you'll see the 1st button on that page is to join our community. And that will take you to our Slack community, which is where most of the discourse happens. And for those of you who don't know Slack, how Slack has a bunch of different channels that you can join within our community from, job posts, mentorship, engine software engineering, product designs. We have a bunch of different targeted channels, and you can insert yourself. If you do join, please go to the the introduction channel and introduce yourselves, and don't be shy. Like, if you have no experience in tech, like, how No problem. Like, we welcome everybody.

C And I guarantee, there'll be some somebody probably with a very similar background how As you if you decide to join. So raise your hand, say, you know, what you're interested in, and people will just jump in and help you. That's, like, the foundation of our community. So,

A it works.

C And it's free.

D And it's free. And it's free. Slack is free. And I think most importantly is if you do have, make up your made up your mind, of transitioning or pivoting your career. Architect is a really great community where you can how these like minded people who can be your accountability partner. It's really important. A lot of people are thinking about it. We've met how So many ex architects were thinking about it, but only a small fraction of them actually committed to it.

D And so it's really great to actually come to this community when you act you meet with all these folks who are willing to do it and take the risk, and you will hold each other, accountable, at the same time being helpful and resourceful to to each other.

B Evelyn, I'm so glad you Hat Them On. This interview, I know going into it, was really important to you, and I guess I kinda think of them as your people in some ways. But I feel like, for me, personally, I just feel like I'm just stepping into this space and discovering this huge community of people interested in all of these topics. And since the interview, I actually joined Architec y, the Slack channel, and I'm just amazed, like, how active it is, how many people are joining the Slack channel by the day, and how many parallel conversations are happening to some of the things that we're talking about here on the podcast. So what did you take away from this conversation?

A It was really nice to kind of how hear their stories and how they came to start Architeckee. I feel like I'm I'm going through the coffee dates that they were going through back in 2016 or 2017 when they started. You know, that's There's so many people in all the social groups that I'm a part of that want to jump ship and go to this how thing that they call UX design. And I think in the majority of those cases, when people say, I wanna go do UX design, they don't even actually know what they how what UX is, but it seems like it's the most and it feels to them like it's the most tangential to architecture. But it it it was an affirmation that some of the feelings that I had when I stepped away from traditional practice are being felt by others. And I think it it's just interesting to hear, like, the how the community has evolved and how there really is a need how for this dialogue to happen. And like you said, it's it's very active, right, on a daily basis. So, how Not only a need for this dialogue to happen, but, like, the exchanges and the networks that are being built are, like, really, how Really intrinsic to actually helping people do career changes right now.

B For both of them, what I find most interesting is how multifaceted they are. They have, you know, this this rich background training in architecture. They're entrepreneurs at heart. Their founders. They're working at really innovative companies. They're also involved in VC start up culture. And how In addition to that, you know, they have this community of technology based leaders and innovators, that they're they're helping to champion. It's there's just so much to talk about with them.

B I especially appreciated Leona's perspective on the need for more human design in her design, human based kind of rigor and theory in her design that how

A That led her and brought her to architecture. I I just the story about her kind of watching Netflix Late at night while Blake kind of worked away at SOM, it is just kinda telling of ongoing studio culture and and things that we've mentioned previously on how on practice disrupted.

B I think, again, a part of that story is that, you know, they may not have planned the direction that they ended up going, but, either through the process of their own interests and exploration and iteration. They've discovered this path, which is kinda compelling. How It is. And I

A think, well, there's 1 area that I do want architects to really pay attention to or really take away from this. You know, Blake talked about this 4 week deep work session he had with himself to clear how out all of the architecture out of this portfolio and really build from scratch. You know, architecture is an identity. It's a lifestyle, I would say that most people say about the career or the profession to step away from identifying as an architect, I think it's really, really hard, but it's actually what is unfortunately needed at this time to make it in this space. How because a lot of people don't understand what architects do on a daily basis. So if anything, making the move to to this how new market does take a very conscientious decision, at least temporarily. You know, like Blake said, you could always go back to it. How But to kind of take off the architect hat and say, okay, what skills that I learned from architecture can I bring forward, how And how do I best represent those skills?

B That's a good point, and maybe we should pivot into what those skills are that Leanna talked about in her observations of what

A how she took forward. Yeah. If anyone has not heard about Netflix's Radical Candor, just Google Netflix Radical Candor. They have a really interesting culture at Netflix. And so it was it was it just made me laugh when she referred, When she said, you know, the one thing architecture architects have is really thick skin, I think we do have thick skin, but we're also, like, very I think I I guess, without getting too d vented, I think there are pieces of us that are very thick skinned, but then there are pieces of us how are like really really emotional and that's what makes us architects. The work ethic is something that Dave Fano even alluded to When we interviewed him, I mean, all of us grew out of studio culture. We know what that's like. That is even pervasive in in firm culture how kind of the late night sometimes, so, you know, that's good.

A Blake mentioned some really interesting attributes about how How we have good communication skills because every one of our finals involved a critique where we have to stand in front of a group of people how And talk. The development of of soft skills or just, kind of a greater understanding of of what we're how Bringing to our our buildings is kind of inherent. I don't know if it always shows up in leadership roles and architects. That's not that's a whole another discussion. How And this idea of being systems thinkers, I tend to latch on to this notion of how like being systems thinkers more often these days because that that's kind of the business buzzword right now. Systems thinkers is is not dissimilar from we're great problem solvers that can solve problems three dimensionally. So it's We solve systems by analyzing, like, every aspect of what goes into that system, but it's the vocabulary that people outside of architecture can actually relate to. How

B Well, I know that one of the things that you've been trying to pursue as we've invited different speakers on, Evelyn, is is finding how diverse speakers and particularly women founders is something that you've been very mindful about. And with Leona, I think It's it's nice to hear her story and know that someone can transition into some of those challenging environments, like VC culture seems pretty has some parallels to, architecture in some ways. And one interesting fact that I actually read today is that women led start ups received just 2.3% of VC funding in 2020, which was, like, kinda shocking, actually. And I know you and me as, like, female founders of our own small businesses, like, we're trying to how bootstrap it and and want to find the right, like, people to invest in us. And it's just like I don't know. Like, in my search for those things, like, They are really rare, and it's hard as a woman to lead in the space. And I just I'm inspired to see someone like Leona stepping into the space and making waves. I know the that this is something we're gonna talk a lot more about VC culture and VC life, a little bit later in this season, but it's something that I appreciate about Lana in this interview.

A It's interesting to me that you say that statistic is is how Shocking, I think, on you know, for people that have been following this space, it's it's not unusual. Right? I mean, the how The profession in general and architecture obviously is going through this need to for greater inclusion and diversity and equity, but I don't think it's, You know, it's not something that is just our profession going through, obviously. Tech is going through that. VCs how Constantly struggle with this. And there's definitely a handful of VCs out there that are woman led that I'm interested in in bringing on Maybe in the later part of season 3, but, you know, for me, you can look at it and say, like, oh, jeez. You know, there's only 2.3% of VC funding how Going to women led startups. The glass half full perspective on that is that there's a lot of opportunity for women in this space too. And if any of you know any great female founders working in, in this space Or just starting their own businesses and making an extraordinary go on it.

A I think we'd be happy to bring them on to practice Disrupted. So please get in touch.

B Yeah. Absolutely. And if you haven't already, go online, check out architecty.org, and sign up for their Slack channel. There's a huge community waiting for you. And to the point that they made in the interview, be sure to introduce yourself when you get on.

A Thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways how you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

A And if you wanna take your career or practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, how provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, and we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

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