Balancing Operations Management & Firm Culture

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners. How Today's speaker is Michael Bernard, an architect and friend from San Francisco. I first started speaking with Michael when I was doing some research on how to make the transition him from working inside an architecture studio to going out on my own into management consulting. He's a very good listener and always has interesting and insightful observations to share. I thought he'd be very interesting to bring on the show because of his breadth of work with AEC firms during his career.

A How Michael understands the operational side of running an architecture practice. Similar to us, he's passionate about the management our side of practice. I would say he's passionate about the social and the more human side of practice. And we're interested in asking him about what he's learned how in his work with all the firms he consults with as well as how firms are evolving through COVID and what post COVID work looks like.

B Michael places his focus on the culture and operations of design practices. As principal of virtual practice, He has advised nearly 200 Bay Area design firms that neither have nor need a full time managing principal. Michael addresses firm culture, management, and operations, the foundational elements of effective everyday function of the small design practice. Michael's range of clients include architects, landscape architects, interior designers, lighting designers, and general contractors.

A How Great. Let's cut to the interview.

C So what I do, what we do is identify how Culturally appropriate business practices that are tailored to each firm that we work with. There's no one and done. We're not about tools first. How We're about muscle memory. We hope, in conversation, to integrate good project management practices how as a way of being, but mostly to recognize each other as members of a team that execute projects.

A How and

B what types of architecture firms have you worked with over the years?

C Largely, the firms that I work with are very small, how Mostly 4 to 6 people, although I've helped firms grow from 2 to 4 to 20. And I've worked with, how Occasionally worked with, firms of a 150 on specific projects. Most of the firms I work with are residential how firms, and some are school designers. Some are cultural institution designers. Others are residential interior architects. I work with the gamut of, local locally grown business, entities, locally designers.

B So, Michael, how did you carve out this niche then within the industry?

C I will just say that I started my career in design and really worked how deeply in design. But over the course of 25 years, really found my sweet spot, traveling through how technical drawings and and construction and all the phases of of practice and found my sweet spot in how Managing projects, managing people. But in doing that and working in design first turns where the iconic building was how 1st, then management came 2nd. I always felt that I was the sort of the second or the stepchild or the that my opinion didn't matter as much as good design. And in that, I I felt there was, like, a lack of knowledge about how to run a business, how to make money. So I started my own practice. And just to be perfectly honest, how I felt the same that I I was bringing that same second best to my practice. How So it's like a bad relationship.

C You know, you leave the bad one, and then you go into the next one, and it's just like the last one. And, it wasn't how My partner's thought he's brilliant, but I brought that willingness to be 2nd best to my to my practice. So I left the practice how and was, on my own as a consulting kind of manager to projects, but I felt like I was walking on one leg, how that I needed a partner. So you get into this place where it's like, I was 2nd best. Maybe 2nd best wasn't so bad how that I had a skill, but I didn't know where to place it. And then, I was recruited by a firm to be the managing principal of a small but growing how Residential firm. And in that, I the principal of the firm, very designed for it, said, don't touch the design. Just do the management, and I don't care what it is.

C Just run my business. How So for a period of time, I was developing practices. But, again, I felt disconnected from the very thing that I loved, how design and supporting design. We made a lot of money. It was a very successful practice, continues to be so today, but I felt like how I was walking on 2 legs, but I didn't know where I was going. So in the middle of this, a friend of mine invited me to lunch. He said, I see you do this managing principle thing. Can I how Can I buy you lunch and you tell me how it works? And in that moment, I realized that I didn't have to do what I do in one place, that I could how offer my services as a consultant to a number of small practices, and that's how I began virtual practice.

C And for the 1st year, I felt that I had lost touch with design. But in fact, I had reinvigorated my relationship to design how by being perceived as having value to the firms that lacked what I offered. And I think that's the key, and I think it's key for practice across positions in Affirm. At the moment where we realize that we can offer value and other people perceive that value, we have agency. How So in that mindset, I began to grow virtual practice, and that was in 2006. So it's been 15 years, how And I don't do the same thing I used to do. I think what's interesting about being a consultant or even being an architect and what we would perceive as traditional practice how is that we change, that we don't have to adhere to what we've always done, but making that leap is really hard. So I carved out a niche by first offering tools such as building a revenue model how or how to write a contract or how to track fees on a project.

C And I came up with a how kind of an easy to remember tool that I call every project has 4 corners. And those 4 corners are project scope, how Schedule, and design fee budget, and construction budget. Those 4 corners and there are many more corners. But those 4 corners actually are easy to remember, contribute to the idea of muscle memory. Where am I? What's the scope? What was in the initial project how Brief. How much time do I have? How much should I burn? What do I have left? How do I have to trim what I'm doing to fit the schedule? How How much design fee do I have, and how do I adjust when I'm drawing to what I must draw, not exactly what I want to draw? How And what's the construction budget? And if those corners come out kinda get out of 90 degrees square, how do I adjust it so the square is square again? So these aren't softwares. These are muscle memory that any architect how or interior designer or landscape architect or any designer can adopt and use as orientation points. Anyone at any level, whether you're a recently graduated junior or a senior project manager, where am I? Where am I in the universe of my how

A Michael, at the top of the call before we started hitting record and you just alluded to it now, you've kind of talked about the evolution of virtual practice, how, especially now coming out of COVID. So where's your focus now?

C So my focus has shifted how From nuts and bolts to heart and soul. That the nuts and bolts are the 4 corners of every project, and it became a mantra for me. How And in the describing of that to different firms and gaining an understanding of all the different firms I've worked with from 1 person to 20 and more. The big picture finally hit me. There is culture that is the container for how we work. How It's not one size fits all. So my curiosity was really piqued. I was very curious about how firms were structured.

C How does the principal engage with their staff? Oh, this firm seems like it's really focused on the projects, and they ignore the container of the projects, how The practice. The practice is the culture nurturer. How do people communicate? All these questions arose for me, how And so I became less interested in the tools, except that they helped me pry open a sense how of the culture of the studio. And so with the I I've worked with over 200 firms in the last 15 years. How I work with 25 firms in any given month. And in that context, I realized that I'm doing a lot of coaching. And I've how I've taken a coaching course and, realized that one of the important things about how These tools is that they have to have a container, and that container, again, is the culture of the practice. Some firms don't even know they have a culture.

C Some firms how are very aware of culture. 1 of my clients meets with me for 2 hours every week, and we discuss culture explicitly. How do we support our staff? How do they generate enthusiasm for their projects? What is our message externally? What is our message internally? How Are those consistent? Do they need to be consistent? So I shifted about 6 months ago. How I had already shifted. I didn't know where my market was, and my market didn't know where I was. I how had an interview with a potential client who found me through a connection, through a website, etcetera. And how We had a conversation, and the and this prospective client said, wow. I had no idea this is what you do.

C It's so different from what you how. Communicate on your website, and in that moment, I got the most valuable feedback I could have gotten in a very long time. So within a couple of weeks, how I redesigned my website, and it launched a few months later. And now it's very clear to people who might work with me how What I do. So it's a combination, as I said, of nuts and bolts where I talk about real hard you know, real concrete practice tools how that are not software based, that are really intuitively based and muscle memory based, that anyone can refer to as reference points. A lot of what I do now is is talk about what is the culture of your practice. If we think about a typical studio where there might be how Four people and 20 projects of a certain size. We think about a 40 hour week.

C We think about our project. We're anchored to that project. How We glue our fingers to the keyboard, and we draw. But there's more. If you think about the container, there's space around each of these projects. How There is the shift from project a to project b. And that 15 minute interval where you kind of erase your brain to shift from 1 to the next, it's not how Work time, but it's present time. So if you really if you think on your plate as a project manager, you have 3 projects.

C You actually have 4. How The 4th project is that space between the projects, and principals don't think

A about that.

C Oh, well, I said that. How They think, you know well, it's true. Isn't

B it? It is true. And I I I'm so glad you articulated it.

A Well, I mean, it's a I mean, we call it switching costs, right, with my the MBA, program. So and there's definitely cost associated with, like, the mind shift how from one project to the next.

C Right. And so you see, when I shifted from here's how you build a project, I thought, wait, let's how Extend out and look at the context in which this work is done. And it's, you know, if you say, my employees don't work 40 hours a week. Well, how Actually, they work 42 hours a week. If they work 37 hours on projects, and they had an hour a day where they had to shift how From one thing to the next, that's 5 hours. So let's plan our work around a 37 hour a week. Let's not build a schedule around 40 hours because we're already late. If it's a 10 week project, we're 2 weeks out.

C So let's just say that it's a 37 hour budget for the week, how acknowledging that people aren't working from project to project to project. So that was a big shift, I think, to explain that to how And that's not a nuts and bolts thing. It's actually bigger. It involves compassion. It involves understanding. It's a two way street.

B I think it's interesting, and I just wanna pause there because what you've said is just really insightful. And I think probably, as someone who's worked on the production side, one of the frustrations is projects are profitable as long as I'm working on the project, yet there was never any slack time for the, you know, the in between. And I think that's what's really great about your point of view as someone who thinks us both about the nuts and bolts, as you say, and this cultural piece. You're able to connect the mathematical profit equation to the kinda social cultural equation, which is more of an abstract piece of the office.

C How Yes. And part of it is for a junior who really has no training or an interview, it doesn't really matter. We receive this idea of how practice should be. We hear about how 40 hour week. In a 40 hour week, we're present, but we're not billable all that time. I don't and I don't wanna linger there.

A Well and does any architecture firm actually work a 40 hour? How No.

C No. No. No. And and I hear about this all the time. And and so, how You know, when we talk about operations management, sure, there are the tools. But operations management, I don't mean to be a renegade, but I am, involve how Seeing your your employees, meeting where they are, and and being realistic about what's possible instead of how sticking to adhering to some received myths about how practice is organized. I mean, look. How Architecture is a privileged profession.

C It always has been since women and men left caves and built built shelter with found objects. How And for a long time, it didn't matter whether you made money or not. We exist within a capitalist context. How So for a studio to thrive, unless one has the resources, for a studio to thrive in a capitalist context, we have to make money. And so we teach people how to run projects profitably and efficiently because that's a cultural expectation. How But there's a conflict between this notion of high design and design first and profitability. I'm not gonna dive too deeply into that, But I see that conflict. You know, for a long time, we thought that integrated building design or BIM would be the future.

C How Frankly, and this is what contributes to my shift from nuts and bolts to heart and soul. Frankly, I think we will see how a move towards a more socially focused practice. Who who ever thought in the way that we received information how that we would focus more on the social, on the cultural, on who we serve So that architects who think we are thought leaders are actually contributors. We we don't have to lead. We have to contribute and collaborate.

A I'm interested in how that translates to new business models and whether or not you think of that because, You know, we've I have always argued that architecture, is also suffers from the most, like, economic cycle there is. Right? There's always time when your clients aren't building. There's always time when your clients are building, and I've also argued it's never enough how for you to just be multi market. Right? Like, you actually have to expand practice outside of traditional practice. So how does this play into where you're headed, if at all?

C Great question. So I work with a nonprofit architecture firm that is recognizable to the outside world as how an architecture practice that is bundled with advocacy, community engagement, how and decarceration. So here you have the architect who might be in any in any other firm, the principles of a firm would be siloed. How They would be commercial, interiors, multifamily, and each principal would have their how universe. And they would communicate at a business level, but perhaps not across, like, maybe in a mixed use facility. But Let's just say that they have their own markets, and they are the chiefs of those of those markets. In this particular organization, The very architectural project relies on the intense collaboration at the top of community engagement, advocacy, and architecture.

A How And they develop their own projects, by the way.

C So they all, at the top, have to collaborate, and architecture is one piece of that. It's almost like how Like a campus architect, if you will. There are benefactors who fund. There is, a lab that needs this how Facility. There's a programmer who you know, you see what I mean? That it's all kind of tied together. They can't be siloed at the top in this nonprofit architecture how firm. And that's what I mean about a socially organized architecture firm, where there are different components that require architecture how and to and the built environment to develop a project that serves the population in restorative justice. So it's a very different organization, how A different way to organize.

C And so the architects who come from this culture of architecture school, which is how Infused with this privilege, how do we unbundle that privilege from the essence of practice? How Because we carry that received knowledge that comes through our professors, through history, we don't even know that we're doing it. How How do we become aware, conscious, of this vestige of privilege and shed it, and focus on how we engage in society. So, yes, Evelyn, I agree. There are ebbs and flows, And we exist in a capitalist context where people need our services when they don't need our services, whatever the economic vicissitudes are that influence that. In some cases, there are socially organized architecture firms that are funded privately, that develop, and that serve their communities, how and change the way we use architecture and shed this idea of design first, architect as thought leader. We are a member of a team. We're a member of a team the group leads.

A I guess a follow-up question would and going back to something that you previously posed, Can architecture firms ever really truly be a design first firm if most of our hours are spent not where we're designing?

C Very good question. What is design? As a professor of professional practice, I would tell my students, like, we are 45 in this class or 30 in this class. Typically, schematic design is 15 or 20% how of any design project, and the rest is is deep thinking, technical thinking, site work, You know, construction observation. So which of you if if 15% of us get to design, who is it? That is a very discomforting question to ask a class in their 3rd year of a master's program. How Which 15% of you will be designers? Okay. So we start with that. And then how In practice, if you're a good designer, are you isolating yourself from the rest of practice? And if you are and you're good at doing that, great. How Then you're, like, in the 1%.

C But if you're like most folks, that 15% is something you might touch how a while and then move on to something that is more profitable as determined by your employer, like construction docs. How And there's a and there's a there's a sad moment when somebody who's really good at management, but really fights to remain a designer, how is promoted in management, and then they develop this conflict, which turns into bitterness in in many people how That I I really don't like management. It's not what I went to graduate school for. I'm a designer, and they fight to hold on to that design, but they don't allow themselves how to shift or evolve because of that received understanding of what an architect is. I think that's the problem I have with architecture how Is it we so are so willing to narrowly define ourselves that we are the most entrepreneurial of all the professions, that we are capable of being the broadest, most entrepreneurial, most liberal.

A I I was gonna argue with her. I would say we are capable. I would say we are, like, the least hustle. Like, we have so little hustle for a profession. But yes.

C Yes. How I would agree. Yeah. But doesn't that come I mean, my opinion. I won't even pose it as a question. My opinion is it it comes from this kind of received sense of privilege, and where do I plug into that privilege? And if we can let that go, can we be a little looser and and engage in in how a broader understanding or develop a broader understanding of the utility of architecture in the world.

B We're talking about a lot of different ideas here that I think there's there's a lot of synergy between the work that you're doing, Michael, and the work that Evelyn and I are trick doing to try and figure out these blind spots that we're seeing in architecture firms and with architects. And it's not to say that architects aren't skilled. They're very skilled professionals in many, many ways, but how we keep seeing blind spots. It it sounds like you're seeing them as well, and I was wondering if maybe you can articulate some of the ones that you're seeing. How

C Sure. Well, I would like to hear the ones you see and so and see if we resonate.

B Well, for me, I've always seen the cultural aspect is a huge missed opportunity in the firm. That that that I think is at the root of a lot of my work that I've been doing since I entered the profession. You know, I came out of school with this very rich experience through my college and undergraduate years and through AIS, thinking about the cultural transactions that are happening in those environments. And then when I went into an architecture firm, I was so disappointed by how undervalued that was in the day to day professional experience. How and so I fought tooth and nail at every firm I've worked at to make sure that culture is at the forefront of the work that we're doing together as a team. And then I would also say the management piece really resonated with me from what you said because interestingly enough, I almost had the opposite experience of what you described where I knew going into a firm, I was gonna be a manager. I was gonna be a potential future firm owner, and nobody recognized that. They all wanted to put me in the design funnel to be the production jockey, and I how resisted it the whole way and was really resentful that nobody understood my interest in management how or knew how to staff me in a way that would have been most effective and profitable to them.

C That how resonates with me. You articulated it, way better than I did many years ago. I just the essence in anyone is How do we be what we do? In other words, I realized that I yearned to lead. How That had nothing to do with architecture, nothing to do with, you know, the day to day thing. My fundamental yearning was to lead. How And to be in 2nd place, I didn't know why it would kept hitting that wall until I stepped out on my own and somebody invited me how to lead. Can I take you to lunch and you tell me how you do that managing principle thing? Was a message. It was a really powerful message, how And I heard it.

C So I your experience resonates with my own. I just didn't have the word. I had to wait for the message. How

B you had to wait for the message.

C Yeah. I so blind you know, we're talking about blind spots, and I have a few, and they're kinda bullet points. One of the one of them the challenges is, is when in a small firm, when a principal starts up and especially in a start up firm, where a principal grows at a faster rate than their staff. So we bring somebody on. It's a 2 person firm. It's how The 2 of us in the trenches were doing this work, and the principal's kind of going on an upward incline, but the rate of how for the employee, the 1st employee, the anchor employee, is a much shallower climb. How And so over 10 years, we find that that person that we relied on is really not in the game as much as we are, how And then we can be stuck. We can allow ourselves to become stuck.

C We either we have to figure out a way to respect that person. How But, you know, part of it is way back there when we first started, we weren't aware. We were just trying to get work done. We were very project how focused. We weren't firm focused. We were focused on our currency, but not the container of that currency. So maybe we should have let go earlier. How Maybe we should have delegated earlier.

C Maybe we should have been more inquiring about what this person wanted to do how Because they may not be the heir to our firm. They may be this our same age, which puts them in a particular category of of whether they will take over the firm when I decide to retire. So how do we how do we think early on about this person sitting next how me who helped me start my firm, and yet, as I've shifted, as I've changed the way I engage with clients and projects and other staff, how How do we work around that person? Do we keep them around? Do we just give them special projects? How How do we how do we work together? That's a real blind spot, and it it's a blind spot that is from the very beginning. We don't always think about it until it's very far down the road.

A No. I think I mean so we we talk about this as career pathing, all the time. I think it's, it's so critical not only as an employer to think about how The development of your people and actually set them up for success, but as an employee to know that I actually have runway, to grow here too. So I think it's I mean, you were talking about blind spots, and for me, the blind spots are that, how Like, we just don't do any of these normal what I would consider normal people processes how that even larger companies at at tech firms, like, they inevitably have to do. And I think it's you know, we are so project focused. For me, the brine the blind spot is, like, we never take the time to really consider if there's a way to optimize what we are doing or to consider if there's a way to To do what we're doing better, you know, and even with our IT stack, we keep adding things to it because we wanna do new and different things to our model, but we don't, like, look at our whole process and say, is there a different way to get from a to b? So every time we bring on a new person. We're not walking them through this now 50 step process to get out the finished drawing that we want to get how,

C Right.

A So those are I mean, that plays right into all of the blind spots that I've been seeing.

C I I completely agree. I, how Every time we bring in a new employee, we have the opportunity we don't have the opportunity. We don't have the choice. Our culture just changed, how And it changed whether we accept it or not, and it's more successful if we see the client to see the employee. How If we see the employee, and we meet them where they are, then we have traction to build a culture. Seeing our colleagues how is fundamental. In some in some firms, you know, I will meet with, as a mentor, how I will meet with the project managers or the project leads. And the 1st couple of meetings are always very polite, and they're polite because we I find how That there's the there's the possibility that those project managers, and they're designers as well as producers, but they're managing projects, so they have a, how, you know, multiplicity of roles, but they don't have a common language.

C They build their language, and we build the language by just meeting, how And eventually, by the 4th meeting 3rd, 4th meeting, there's some phone building. It is not flat there. People are really how are really, like, starting to get irritated about, and they don't know what they're irritated about. And that's when our language begins. That's when we begin. And that's what I love. How That's where my curiosity is, being patient and listening and meeting my group where they are how so that they develop a language that is unique to their project range and their skill range, and they have agency. How Then the principals begin to think, oh my goodness.

C Maybe we better amp up our game at the top. Maybe we but, you know, because maybe we're not communicating correctly or accurately. And so then that group of managers can say, this is what we need from the principles. We need a clear message. We need to initiate projects with goals and intentions. How Check those goals and intentions at the end of the phase. What fell off the table? What do we have to do in DD that we didn't get in schematics? How Did we tell the client that we didn't get there, and are they cool with it? Let's make them cool with it. How do we do that? And and so the managers have these conversations because they're really bearing the how of being profitable, being timely, meeting the scope, identifying changes.

C All of these things, how All of these challenges fall to the design managers and managers of projects. So to have them meet as a group, to give that group agency, is not to create an insurrection at all. It is to is to give people the opportunity to create a culture, and for the principals to stand back and marvel at this group that really owns it, and then the principals how who have delegated the responsibility for culture within their container to go out in the world and meet clients where they are. How So the importance, I think, here is to manage up with a message and for principals to be patient with the managers how to develop a language that delivers a message. It's really about communication and relationships and stepping away from the transactional focus on project, how Project, project, project, receive, deliver, receive, deliver. That's a transaction

B Or set out fire.

C Right. Right. To to move to intention from reaction. How So that's how that's how, virtual practice, for example, has shifted from nuts and bolts, which we must have, to stepping back and seeing how people work together to generate information that we call a project as a group.

A There's how A lot of things unpack in there. I I do want to touch on the fact that, like, culture evolves. And even in the business community, it's gone you know, the hiring process has gone from being called hiring for culture fit how versus hiring for culture add, and I think we should all acknowledge that every time you bring on somebody, that that culture that they are they are adding to the complexity and to the richness of your firm culture, and you need to find a way to invite them in. I how also feel, like, in this move to COVID, like, to what is work pre COVID and what is a more flexible how Work policy and listening to all of these principles worry about how I manage or or how I mentor the the newer people coming in, or how do I keep people make sure they're productive and they're accountable if they're not in the office sometime. I how For me, and I'd love to get your take on this, but for me, it's really it's a part of a broken system. How It stems from the fact that we lack people systems in our firms that instill enough trust and the people we hire from day 1 to ensure that they are getting done what we need them to get done. And how I I'm just really disheartened when the principals kind of place all the blame on the their their underperforming employees. And then if you how or the the employees that weren't as productive when they were remote or the or the, you know, the employees that how how are they going to Learn anything if they can't overhear my call and take something away from that.

A You know, when when part of that to blame is actually on the leadership of the firm, like, how can you not trust somebody who is able to carry a full course load, You know, and to learn in 1 or 2 hour increments on a weekly basis. You know, how can you not trust somebody if you haven't told them how Your expectations of them, like and what you expect out of them to like, on a performance level, like, at a regular cadence. So how For me, it stems from a lot of broken people systems, and having better people systems will actually how Support and raise up that culture.

C Really good points. That's a lot to unpack. I'm gonna boil it down to 1 word, love. And I'm not being flipped. Love is accountability, and it's a two way street. And what I'm really talking about is, how You know, staff sees their leader and leader sees staff. And how If in the before time, we were a cohesive group that understood that our studio, our business, how practice is more than just projects, that we had, you know, systems in place that acknowledge each other, The the bivouac, if you will, of happy hours and ugly sweaters and those kinds of things are Band Aids, and they do help us. I mean, the biz wack is a I mean, it's shelter.

C Right? And this is the way we get through. But other firms have come up with add ons, how Like, we already had really good cultural systems in place to keep people connected. So what we do in 1 firm is how A group of people unrelated on different projects will log on with each other and share space, airtime, And Zoom time, they're not talking to each other. They're not coordinating. They're not transacting. How They're sharing a communication channel so that 4 or 5 people in 4 or 5 households during COVID how hear the ambient noise of the people in each other's households, and they're working they're click, click, click, click, click. They're just working away on their keyboards and doing stuff. And sometimes the question will come up like, hey, so and so.

C What did you do with that door detailer where that material turned a corner? And it's not why they're connected, how But the point is they feel comfortable enough to just have an open channel, and they call it open office hours. And nobody's how On patrol, it's it's and it doesn't work in every office. In another office, they're like, woah. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I don't want any of that. But that says something about the how culture of the place. Right?

B Exactly.

C So that kind of willingness to be open or conducting retreats virtually, how That's another way that, firms have have got people to work on things that are outside of practice. And that's why I say love. It's care. It's it's It's not just maintenance. It's something that came before. Even the most robust garden can be, you know, subject to the how bad weather and survive. The firms I'm talking about are resilient, and other firms how that rely appropriately on the independence and self reliance and resourcefulness of employees, especially in small firms, how Where employees are siloed with 4 or 5 projects each, and they work on their own. They might haggle over staff with a junior, but they're pretty much on their how And then we come into shelter in place and COVID and stay and working from home.

C Those how Skills we value so much, which include independence, serve employees to think, you know what? I can do this on my own, how And they leave. So what do we do? What's the glue? That's why I say love. It's paying attention to your staff, Seeing them and meeting them where they are, giving them bad news when you have to, but it's in the context of we're a team.

A But don't take it personally when they do leave, I guess, would be my

C Right.

A No. I you know, there's definitely those firm principles that, like, take things so personally, but that you have to remember that you're running a business. And if if a person is running a career like they're running our business, how You know, sometimes things don't work out, and it has nothing to do with that relationship with the principal.

B I think one of the things the advice that I would have for those people that have a hard time is to stop putting your expectations on other people because I heard a really great quote yesterday by Seth Godin. People don't want what you want. You have to how to stop assuming that they do. And and and just because you hire someone that's interested in the same things you are and that's why you bring them into your company, it how does not guarantee they're gonna have the same career goals or life goals that align with how you wanna grow your business.

C How That's you know, that I was listening to Seth Godin interviewed by Shane Parrish on The Knowledge Project.

B That's where I heard it.

C Yeah. And you'll I'm sure you'll find the reference, and how And everyone should listen to that. He describes, a chef in New York who told him, you know, you really shouldn't come here anymore. And in that moment, he how He stated who he was and and the value of his offering. And, again, as you say, Janine, you know, people don't necessarily want what you want, how What you what you're giving them. So just being present with that value and letting people go when they wanna go. It's like She knew what she wanted, and it's not here, and let's move on. Opportunity is we get to change our culture.

C I don't know which direction it's going, but it's gonna change.

B So what I really like about Michael's story is that he he was a practicing architect in a firm. He was running a lot of projects, and he even says at the beginning of the conversation that we aren't taught business management training in architecture high school, and even when he was in practice, he experienced a lack of knowledge around the value of the business management skills that he was offering to a design studio setting. And what's interesting is that he has eventually found his way forward into, offering the skill to the profession in a way where it is, received with value.

A And we've alluded to this a little bit in the past, how that kind of the lack of entrepreneurship that's taught in school or more practical business how Skills. Right? I remember my practice management course, and, you know, I I'm scared to think that practice management courses are the same As they were back in the day in 2000, probably, when I took mine, that it was literally just how Walking you chapter by chapter through the architect's handbook and practice. And I think we spent a whole day on how Picking a logo and designing letterhead. Clearly, it's not getting to the heart of business. So how I've often talked about how, for me, design has translated and what I learned in school. My design experience has translated into how Designing strategy for business, and I feel that's the same way that design is translating for you too, Janine. And I it's sad that we don't get to experience more of that in school and how those skills how translate out to other parts of practice.

B Yeah. It's true. I I don't know how to explain it, but, you know, as someone who kind of how gravitated towards management foundations as my design language. And coming out of architecture school, that was kinda how I wanted to practice. I found it frustrating when I went into the studio setting where that wasn't everybody's language around design. And so I I find it refreshing when I talk to you or I talk to people like Michael or others that that they're thinking about some of these, like, basic principles of project management or firm management or even operations management. Just putting the business of the practice together in support of the design.

A Right. And what I also like about Michael's approach And his approach to business is his approach to humanization of business as well as a social responsibility that businesses have, not only to their employees, but I think to the greater community. And that's a trend how You know, that's one of the reasons why Presidio Graduate School, where I got my MBA, grew so quickly was because it was the first, You know, sustainable MBA with this really, really large social responsibility undertow throughout its entire curriculum. And I see that being integrated in business a lot more thoughtfully today. And I see architects how Trying to do more of that, but I definitely think there's room for growth around there.

B Yeah. And similarly, I went to Mills college. I don't know that I've ever talked about this really on the show that much, but it was a place where it was about the social qualities of, business, not just the transactional. And so there was this ethical component and this purpose driven component that really fueled my experience in getting my MBA. And so if I shift into what I heard Michael say about the way he's looking at practice, which is culture being a container for how we work. And then we shift into this conversation about operations management. I think He's right in his assessment that we just have to be more realistic going forward in in managing the social values of the people in our firms and considering that in relation to the financial and profitable demands of the project.

A Right. And I think basic empathy around the switching costs that happen on a day to day basis is something that he really talked about, You know, how to manage the space in between projects, right, as well as the shift from his view of what he calls the nuts and bolts to heart and soul. I think in doing that, he said he didn't say the nuts and bolts are any less important, but how That heart and soul is equally important. Right? And when I think about all the research that I've been doing around the hybrid workplace, Whether it's for how we are moving forward at Slack as a company or my fears of how architecture firms will move forward, when we get beyond this planning for reentry is that we we don't revisit our culture and our values And kind of check ourselves and ask us you know, ask, are we live really living into those values? How And can every one of our team members on our team see themselves in a piece of those values?

B Yeah. Exactly. I think that and not not all firms, but many firms, I think we make the assumption that the culture is fine, and we're not really doing a thorough diagnostic of, like, what's actually going on with the culture. And it's only only been, as we've said many times before in prior episodes, it's just only been amplified because of the pandemic and because of the way we're practicing in this virtual remote environment.

A Right. And I want to revisit this notion of how Culture fit. I think a lot of a lot of firms and even businesses have, like, talked about we need to hire for a culture fit. But when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and we are really bringing new ideas to the table, We're really constantly adding to our culture. Like, the culture is changing as people join the firm and as people leave the firm. How So it needs to be a lot more flexible and and intuitive, I think, and and back to, like, the intentionality and empathy around people in the practice. So it was interesting how Michael began to talk about a more socially organized business structure.

B I agree. And it's nice to hear that his business has pivoted. And like you said, his research has kinda led him a little bit in the same direction that we've been going with what we're researching, and that's how this idea that we, as an industry, have to look back into our own organizations and think about the people component, the culture component, the compassion and empathy component of how we're managing our firms. To move forward in our industry, we have to be a little bit more people focused, not just on our clients, but on the a team that we're operating within day to day.

A Absolutely. I think that is a great place to end our conversation. Thanks for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon. How

A And if you wanna take your career or practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, And we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

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