Season 3 Launch

A This episode of practice disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operation solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

A Welcome back to Practice Disrupted. Today, we're kicking off season 3 after a very short summer break or siesta and excited to bring you all new content.

B Behind the scenes, we've been planning and thinking through 20 new episodes with all new voices who are helping to disrupt the practice of architecture.

A The show was created really to discuss the changing nature of architectural practice, and we've all been through quite a few changes over the course of 2020 and 2021. Through our exploration of themes across 2 seasons, we've discussed a wide range of topics from individual career advancement to specific business strategies firms can use to elevate their practice.

B In this upcoming season, we'll continue to expand our research in the areas of innovation, new business strategy, professional development, entrepreneurship, EDI, and architecture and. Across our growing list of episodes, you can find a diverse range of experts that dive further into each of these topics.

A Every season, we bring on a guest moderator to help us kick off the show. This season is no different, and we are excited to do a crossover episode with our friend, Katherine Meng, who hosts the Design Voice podcast. Jeanine, why don't you jump into her bio?

B Katherine Ming is an architect at DLR Group in San Francisco. Her broad design experience includes projects in the multifamily housing, higher education, education, workplace, and commercial sectors. Before moving to San Francisco, Catherine practiced in Shanghai and New York City. Catherine is also the creator and host of the Design Voice podcast, which seeks to elevate and amplify the voices of women in architecture, engineering, and construction. Each episode features honest conversations with women who shape the built environment. By sharing her guests' stories, Katharine hopes that her podcast serves as a source of inspiration, education, and empowerment to everyone in or aspiring to join these professions. Katherine received her bachelor's of architecture degree from Cornell University. She lives in San Francisco with her husband, toddler daughter, and Maltipoo.

B Let's cut to the conversation. Okay. Katherine, all yours.

C I'm excited to do this with y'all.

B I know. This is so great. Like, I remember seeing karaoke with you at Kwan Hemeny's office. So Yeah. Now I feel like it's come full circle. We're we're doing a podcast together.

C It's such

B a smart world. We're bonding.

C And It is. And then

A I was in your series earlier last year Yeah. And we always talked about wanting to do kind of a longer extended version. So here we are.

C Yeah. I know. So you guys hit 40 episodes, which is crazy. That's all and, like, within what? A span of a year and a half? Like, that's crazy. Congratulations.

A Thank you. Thank you.

B It was kind of our pandemic project.

C Did it start? I don't remember now. Remind me, did did you both did you start the show during the pandemic?

B Unintentionally, yes. We were we were talking about doing a podcast and then the pandemic hit and it the timing just kinda collided at the same time. And because of the pandemic, I think it really allowed us to dive deep on it and have a anchor point to the show that actually was, you know, part of the thesis. It it unintentionally, it was like it validated a lot of what we were talking about.

A Yeah. Big, huge thanks to our production team over at Gable Media. I mean, without them, like, we wouldn't be able to have it, 40 episodes. So and and the show wouldn't sound nearly as good. So I've been wanting to do a podcast for a really long time, and I don't you know, the architect in me is, like, if I can't put it out in a certain, like, put out a show of a certain quality, then I don't know if I wanna put it out into the world. Yeah. I know that's, like, not what entrepreneurs do, but that's that's definitely the architect the architect side of me driving driving that line of thinking. So with without them, I'd I mean, we definitely would not be where we are today.

C Yeah. Shout out to all the editors listening to this right now. Yes. Did you originally intended for to be, like, a limited run series?

A We initially planned for 12, and then we heard that other Gable shows had signed on and they were doing 20, and we're like, we could do 20. And then I think it naturally evolved into, well, like, what does the next season look like? Mhmm. I don't think we set any expectations coming in.

C Yeah. What does your next season look like?

B That's a good question. I think we've learned a lot. You know, now we've done 2 seasons that we've had on, I think, over 50 guests on the show. So just speaking to so many different individuals, we realized, like, okay. There's there's really they're validating what we're saying.

C Mhmm.

B This is not just Evelyn and I having these thoughts on our own. There are a lot of practitioners out there that feel these things. And so by bringing them forward and having conversations about them, I feel like we've been we've learned a lot, and that's helped us focus more into additional topics that we wanna cover, figuring out, like, where the gaps are that we're not discussing. And so I see it as, like, it's a body of research, and this has just allowed us to really sharpen our focus. Mhmm.

A You'll see a lot of the things that our listeners have told us they liked. So we are definitely going to be continuing various different series, like the want to have another conversation with Asian American architects. Mhmm. We're actually hoping to group those into a more structured program that then firms can offer as a way to actually begin to have conversations about EDI, especially if their leadership, is not currently reflective of where they wanna go

C Yeah.

A As as a thought starter, as a conversation starter to really begin to help firms move in that direction. And then I think, you know, Janine and I talked about trying to tie everything back to practice in a more realistic sense, which may kind of seem at odds with where practice of architecture was headed and what practice disrupted is, but the ultimate goal is to move the profession forward in a meaningful way. So in order to do that, we need to make sure that we enable the small steps as well as the large steps. Mhmm.

B That's right. So we're, you know, we're doing a little bit more on additional tactical ideas on how to bring these ideas forward into practice. We're speaking with more architects next season, in firms, and and we're also gonna be speaking to a lot of entrepreneurs. I think that's another part of our interest area

C is

B this, like, you know, next generation of, like, new leaders that are coming in to lead the profession.

C Yeah. Do you have a sense of who your listeners are? Like, what, you know, what they do? Like, are there small firms, big firms? Are they entrepreneurs, Like, age ranges? Just, you know, general demographics of your listeners. Do you?

A Just kidding.

C Well, it sounds like you get a lot of, like, feedback from listeners. And so, like, who are you? Who are those? One of

A the hardest things. Yeah. I I mean, I do feel like I'll I'll let Janine elaborate. But I do feel like that that is one of the hardest things when it comes to podcast is really understanding who is listening and the effect that it's having. But anyways, Janine, go

B ahead. We do only because I I for me, I I have to use it as a metric in order to understand how to adjust and move forward. I need that feedback. Yep. It's really hard for me to be in a vacuum. So I have been really adamant about reaching out on social media and people that I know are listening and trying to prompt feedback.

C Mhmm.

B But I've also been really surprised. I think that we we attract really excited leaders in our industry who are thinking about things differently, so that's, like, a no brainer. And then every once in a while, we get these amazing comments from young professionals who work in firms, and they're like they feel heard. And so those are the young emerging professionals that are sitting at their desk doing waterproofing details and feel maybe pretty miserable. And so I think that's part of our audience. And then we have also heard from practitioners who run firms, and they're saying, oh, yeah. We're listening, and we're trying to take in what you're saying. You're saying a lot.

B Help me get this into a digestible way that I can implement it

A in my firm. So we we we have a big range, like, people who, like, get it and people who wanna get it. So I

B feel like we have a big responsibility to try to address different points of view.

C Well, part of the reason why I ask is because I'm curious how that all plays into how you determine what your episode's about. And maybe this is getting to, you know, like, behind the scenes of podcasting and, like, the listeners don't really care, but I I don't know. I feel like I struggle with, like, talking, like, interviewing people or talking about topics that, like, I personally am interested in, but then it's, like, is this the kind of content that, like, people wanna listen to? But it's, like, you mentioned, it's, like, so hard to I feel like podcasting, especially, you're, like, in such a vacuum, and you really have to, like, drag feedback out of people. And so I don't know, it's hard to it's hard to figure out, you know, where you want things to go or, like, what topics you wanna cover, but I guess with your show, you have, like, a very strong thesis or point of view, so maybe everything is sort of revolves around, you know, a couple of central ideas.

A I mean, I think we're constantly pivoting. Like, that's the beauty of it and and all the change that is happening in the world right now. So we try to practice what we preach. We do take whatever feedback we get and note it and consider how to adapt overarching themes, like connecting back to practice in a meaningful way that people can then take steps and move forward. Mhmm. But at the same time, you know, Janine will, like, come across an interesting person in general assembly, and she'll be like, why do you think about this?

B This? Yeah. To to the pivot point, we've changed, like, the first season. Like, Evelyn and I, we're learning how to work together and, like, bringing our ideas forward. And and so we were I was very prescriptive. I, like, mapped out. I'm like, these are the topics I wanna go through, and, it was pretty rigid. And so and then we moved into the 2nd season, and I think we ramped up in our confidence on things. And there was more, less rigidity, more flexibility.

B We allowed we didn't I didn't structure, like, exactly what needed to flow when. It just kinda whatever we got recorded released when it did. There were a range of topics, and we started seeing themes within those topics, which was really helpful. But Mhmm. We also I think that to to come back to that other question you had about our audience, the other thing I've noticed with our episodes is we typically go into these very niche topics, like transitioning from architecture to tech. And what ends up happening is people hear that, and then they send it to their friend because they know their friend is specifically trying to solve that problem in their career. And so we get a lot of listeners that were referred to the show because of a specific topic, and then they end up listening to some other episodes. So I I don't I'm not convinced our listeners listen to every episode.

C Mhmm.

B I think there are probably some out there that do, but I think we get a lot of, like, organic growth that comes in naturally based on the topics that we're talking about.

C Are there any topics that you haven't talked about yet that you're, like, itching to to address in future episodes?

A I would say that there's people that I want to bring on. I don't know if they're central topics.

C Mhmm.

A I do feel that the act of making podcasts, similar to the act of writing that I've used over my own career, just by commentating. Like, the more you kinda put your voice out in the world, it's easier to actually focus your ideas. Yeah. Right? Because otherwise then, you have all of these ideas in your head and know you don't know which direction that you're going to go into. So this this is actually obviously not answering your question, but I but I but I do feel so so, no, there there's individual people that I would really love to bring on. I This need for architecture for me to evolve is like it's a consistent thing that, like and passion that continues to drive me.

C Mhmm.

A There's always another reason that's gonna come on that I will identify as to, like, yes, see, and that's another reason why we need to change how we are doing things. But rarely ever have I identified that reason and then been, like, let's make a whole episode about it. Mhmm. Usually, it's, that's a really interesting person. And here, given our point of view, here's where their narrative fits into that context.

B Yeah. I agree with what you said about the iterative process of writing and podcasting. Like, one of the things that I was thinking about when we were prepping for this is just that, for me, like, this is a medium where I'm able to explore, and nobody is micromanaging me on what I can say or do. Like, Evelyn is always very open to, like, taking an idea that I bounce off of her, and we'll workshop it. Like, we we go through a process of trying to figure it out together. And

C Mhmm.

B So I've put ideas out there over the past 2 seasons that, like, maybe it was something that I was thinking about while I was working some time at some point in the past 10 years. And in exploring it with other people and really talking about it, I I sometimes feel, like, again, validated. Like, I'm not alone. People agree this is something that is not my isolated challenge. And then in some instances, I actually changed my mind. I might, you know, shift my perspective a little bit. And so that it's been really, like, nice. Actually, it's it is not a concrete thing.

B It's very, like, fluid. And I think when I started the podcast with Evelyn, I was coming out of transitioning from my life in the Bay Area. And going into season 3, like, I'm really looking forward now as a business owner and trying to figure out where am I heading with my company. And I know Evelyn's doing that too. So it has become a it's like a vehicle for thinking about what do do I wanna be doing with my business and my career, and how do I wanna be focusing my research and my energy.

C Yeah. It's interesting what you sort of just touched on, Evelyn, where you have this drive to change the architecture practice. And and, Janine, I know that you I feel like you sort of feel the same way. And you both aren't, you know, in, I guess, like, traditional architecture firms or, like, in, you know, like, traditional practice anymore, but you're sort of in these, like, architecture adjacent I don't even know how you would describe it. Like, architecture adjacent or, like, related fields, but it seems like you're both also, like, still really invested in the profession. So, like, what is it about it that even though you've kind of left, like, sort of keeps you still wanting to, like, push for change in in the profession?

A Is is so my answer applies to, like, all the reasons why I stay involved in the AIA. Mhmm. And it's the people in the architecture community really are an extended family for me, and the way we think is so intrinsically unique to our training.

C Mhmm.

A It's it's just a unique community that I love to be a part of. I when I went and I pursued my MBA, my first year while I was at UCLA before I transitioned to the Presidio, I actively cut ties with anything architecturally. Like as like, I don't wanna be in any real estate development club. I don't wanna be in any green building clubs. These were clubs that I could have been in. Mhmm. I just like, I'm gonna try something new. But because I had already been so involved with with the AIA, both at California and National, because my circle of friends were all architects.

A I found that I really missed that. So in doing that, it bred extra clarity when I came out of school in terms of, like, I need to do something that is still adjacent to the profession. But at the same time, like, all of those issues that I had seen while I was a practicing architect, like, those those are still happening. And now having a more entrepreneurial hat on, now having my business hat on, now being in not only, tech, but being in a very intentional company who is so concerned about the development of their people Mhmm. And how well they care for employees. There's many reasons why architecture obviously can't support their employees the way technology does, but there's there's so much more that we could be doing out there. You know, I I want to see architects succeed. My thing lately is I I'm tired.

A I'm tired of all of the complaining that I hear from architects about how we've given everything away

C Yeah.

A How other people have taken over our space. Yeah. And I was like, okay. Well, let's do something great. Let's flip this conversation. Right. Like, if if you if we were in any other industry, like, it's not like the moonlighters are taking away my job. It's like you know, or taking away my, projects.

A It's like, okay, what are they doing that I'm not doing that I should be doing to win those projects? Right. The reframe is very different. I just I wish I want I want more architects to think that way.

B Likewise, because I was involved with AIA and AIS coming out of school, and I, you know, I served as national president of AIS, which feels, like, ancient at this point. But I really saw the profession as a community. It is a profession. We are an industry that is connected by professionals who are in a network. And while at the individual scale when you're working on your computer, it might not feel that way, you're just working on your computer and your project with your client, We're a community, global community of leaders who are working behind a very old profession. And, you know, I reject the idea that when you take a step off this path that you're not part of this community anymore. I went through my school training, and I sat at the drafting board. And I did all the projects and the critiques and the homework assignments and the studio nights.

B Mhmm. And I did my internship time, which felt like jail for me, but I did it. And just because I'm not gonna practice in the same way that someone else is doesn't mean that my contributions to the profession are any less significant. I see a place where I can contribute that is meaningful, and that is how I choose to practice. And I am very passionate about this industry, and I want so badly to create change because after going through all of my internship hours and time and coming into this profession that I thought was a professional society and would treat people with dignity, I realized, oh, no. They don't. It was heartbreaking in some senses, and I just I think that's ridiculous. You know? It's time for this industry to move forward and treat people better, and I want to be part of that change.

B I wanna help firms figure out how to design beautiful buildings and still be respectful to their staff and their employees so that people who love this profession can thrive, and they don't have to leave. And they don't have to feel like they have to go start their career over again because of a recession or because, you know, there's really bad management at their firm. You know? Those things can be adjusted. It just has to take someone caring enough to change it.

C Yeah. I really like what you just said there. I, yeah, I feel like that mindset of, like I don't know. Like, if you're not an architect, then you're not part of the community anymore. I feel like that mindset is so pervasive even within the architecture community where, like, if you're not a designer with a capital d, like, maybe you're not as successful as an architect if you're, you know, like the for example, like, the specifications right or something. And I feel like there's so many facets to the, you know, the architecture industry itself, but then all these, like, tangential, like, related fields. But I don't know. I feel like architects I don't know what it is about the mindset where, like, people seem kinda snobby to me sometimes about this.

C We're, like, there's this idea of, like, how you're supposed to be in the profession, and if at least a lot of the people I speak with, they have a hard time of, like, letting that idea go and, like, transitioning to something else even though, like, they're clearly, you know, feel like they're in jail. Like, they're gonna intern somewhere. I don't know what it is about, like, the architecture profession that has such, like, this mindset, like, hold on people.

A I think some of that can be traced back to studio culture in a way. Yeah. I feel like it becomes increasingly harder for me to talk about studio culture because I would like to think that it's evolved since I've been in school. I know we did a recent grad panel. Maybe it'd be interesting to do, like, a A

C current student.

A A student a current student panel to see we can test the theory of, like, what has evolved in studio culture. But so much of that competitiveness that I felt in studio still holds true

C Mhmm.

A In practice, and we are so protectionist about Yeah. Everything that we do that I feel like it it's it's harmful because then we can't support one another more broadly

C Mhmm.

A Because we are protecting our own individual work so much, if that makes sense.

B Yeah. I I have a lot of responses to this, and I wish I could you know, dial it down into a very simplified answer, but I think there's a couple of factors going on psychologically. There's definitely an ego component to it. I think we're taught that there are right and wrong answers in architecture. Like, if you think about it from a code standpoint, there are wrong answers, and that's for the protection of, you know, health, safety, welfare. And so when you when you look at it from that standpoint, there's rigidity. When you think about it from a design standpoint, there can also be right and wrong answers, especially when you start to get someone who has an ego involved in the design process and feels very strongly about what those right and wrong answers are.

A And Mhmm.

B I think there's a lot of psychological elements to what's going on. You know? There's the long term process of the education and the licensing, which is an honor and a very important one that people have to work towards. So nobody I don't think either Evelyn or and I are suggesting that those credentials or those requirements are not necessary. What we're talking about is culturally Yeah. About the soft skills that happen within a firm and how we treat people. And so inconsequential things that maybe aren't prioritized, those are the things that I think really we're talking about in terms of how people are treated and respected. And I think that's where we have the most to gain in terms of how we might change over time as an industry.

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C It seems like you both are at a place where being, you know, more outside of the practice or industry, you have, I don't know, more more of an ability to actually affect change in a sense. And I feel like it's also the converse of that is being within, like, a large firm and trying to change the culture from within. And, you know, a question I often ask my guests are, what would your advice be to someone if they're at a firm where they don't have the same, like, value alignment? Would you recommend they stay and, like, try and change, or would you recommend they leave and find a different firm or practice that has the same values? And I don't know what I honestly don't know what the answer is. I feel like there is value to, like, staying, you know, within the organization and, like, trying to change it, but maybe it's more effective if you go somewhere else.

A So the way that I've been addressing this type of question, because I've I've been there, done that. Like, I stayed at our firm much longer than I probably should have because I thought there was an opportunity Mhmm. To lead. I was told there was an opportunity to lead, and then, frankly, that opportunity never came around. So my my response is that I think people should treat their career more like a business. I feel like we tie so much emotion to what we do Inherently, because we are architects, I think this is I think this is true of every industry, maybe. But I think it's even more true of architects because of the emotion and passion that go into the making of a project. I hear the countless stories of people staying at our firm, not because they love necessarily the culture of the firm, it's because they love the people that they are working with in their immediate team Mhmm.

A Or they love the clients or the project that they are on, you know? So then they create these time bound things where, like, I'm just gonna stay at the firm until I wrap this project. But I feel like I mean, ultimately, the firm leaders are treating their firm as a business. So if you were to treat your career as a business, then you need to make the moves that are right for you kind of independent of the emotion. There is some validity to trying to change from the inside out. I would not be a part of the AIA if I didn't believe it.

C Yeah.

A Right? But I am putting myself in a position where I'm a volunteer leader in a big organization. I'm not getting paid to be a part of that. And I feel like within the AIA, there's a leadership structure that I am empowered to move myself up in. Within a firm, there's only so much you can do unless you are truly empowered to move forward. So I would say to those individuals who find themselves in the position that sometimes leaving is just as powerful as staying and trying to change, that if you leave and others follow for the leadership in that firm, like, that's also a sign that they need to change. And sometimes that's the sign that they need to actually create the change, unfortunately. Mhmm. Ultimately, I I feel like people have to do what's right for them.

A If you can withstand it and if you actually see change happening, by all means, stay. But I've I've definitely been in the position where I got my hopes up and it just didn't happen.

C Well, I've

B tried both approaches of staying and leaving, and I think there's value in both. When you stay, you kinda have to learn from what each challenge is trying to teach you. And, you know, there's value in that and the patience and looking for long term ways to make incremental changes over time. Personally, I'm not actually a very patient person, so that's very difficult for me to do. And in instances that I've done that, I end up being really frustrated. But, you know, the metric that I use is once I have a goal in mind that I want for myself, I I find that it's really hard for me to, like, put it aside, especially if I see, like, there's, like, a really clear path forward that's not being implemented. When I've stayed, I've tried to work on my personal goals and, like, whatever the goals of the company are at the same time and try and figure out ways where can the values align, where do they align, where am I maybe a little bit, like, have a blind spot. But up until the point that I realized that my goal within that company isn't gonna be able to be reached.

B And at that point, that's when I've learned I've I have to move on personally. And I'm not afraid of, like, change anymore. I used to be it sounded really intimidating when you change jobs, like, at the beginning of your career, but, like, now I've done it a few times, and it's it's not really that bad. And I think you learn something from every time you go through kind of a transition process about yourself. And looking back, I would say the things that at some point I probably identified as really hard and was frustrated by, like, I think now I can, you know, I can see how they, like, added value in some ways to helping me grow personally. But, yeah, I think you have to just kinda, like, decide what your own value system is and, like, what you're willing to sit with and not and when you reach that threshold.

C Mhmm. Yeah. This is something I personally struggle with a lot because I feel like I'm sort of in the opposite situation of you guys where, like, I'm at a large firm, and it's, like, deep in this, like, large corporate firm. And I, like, never intended to work at a large corporate firm. Right? Like, I was at a small small firm that had, like, a great culture that, Janine, you know well, and then we were a and then we were acquired by DLR Group. And so all of a sudden now, like, I, basically, like, woke up the next day and, like, was part of this, like, huge corporate structure. And I'm still sort of working through that. Like, oh, do I wanna be at a large firm, or do I prefer medium firm? And I think a lot of it has to do with what you said too, Evan, where, like, like, I like the people in my office a lot.

C You know? Like, it's still the same culture and, like, firm in people that it was before, but now we're just sort of this, like, little office within this, like, giant organization. And, yeah, I just wonder, like, what my role should be within all of this. I feel like I don't know. I feel like if people are at a place where they feel like they have a have a voice and and the power to, like, say something they should, and I feel like I'm comfortable enough to, like, say things without being worried that I'll be, like, fired or something. But it's, like, how far do I wanna push it? Right? Like, how how much do I wanna stick my own neck out there, or, like, how much do you wanna push for change as opposed to just, like, if your life is fine, then, like, continuing on your life even though I don't know. Like, if you have the power, should you say something? It's like something I I struggle with a lot.

B I mean, I think it comes back to values, and I would say that the thing that I've learned and I would recommend for you and anyone listening is just, like, you have to be really clear about what's important to you and what the nonnegotiables are. So, like, for me, I knew coming into this industry, being a leader was really important to me. So if I was putting to situations where I was not allowed to lead, I didn't have a voice, I wasn't being asked to speak up, or I was actually being, in some instances, asked to not speak. Those things are nonnegotiables for me. I can't do that. That's not who I am, and it's not why I went to architecture school. It's not why I wanna work at your firm. So you have to understand those things about yourself so that you can understand when you get into situations like that, why you're leaving.

B And Mhmm. In any change that you make, they're gonna be trade offs. So, like, if you go from, like, a small firm, you're gonna have a set of variables that you'll like and you won't like. If you go to a large firm, you're gonna have a set of variables that you like and you don't like. And so you'll there there will be problems and challenges regardless. You just have to which ones you can live with. Like and some people can live with it. Like, they're they're fine being put in that role, and it doesn't bother them.

B So I would say, like, just being really clear about, like, what you wanna get out of that job and using that as a metric for how long you wanna stay.

C Mhmm. I know a lot of the people you've interviewed or a lot of the topics you've talked about in your on your podcast are, you know, around entrepreneurship and people who are crafting their own type of practice. But I think from, you know, from where I sit, a lot of architects I know they work for other people, you know, even if it's a small firm or a large firm, like, you're you're working for someone else. And so, I don't know, what are your thoughts on how people who don't have their own practice or don't wanna start their own practice, Like, they're happy within Affirm, but, like, you know, how can they push for change in the profession? Like, what can you what can individuals do to push for change?

A I mean, my my approach, there's always room for change. Right? And we are where we are because we haven't changed for so long. Yeah. But I I think independent of where you are, I I would hope and, you know, would love to get feedback from any of our listeners out there. I would hope that they can take some of the learnings about being more entrepreneurship and and and apply that more internally.

C Mhmm.

A The the onboarding process at Slack, the the recommended onboarding process that I've been researching, you know, companies that have a year long onboarding process are much more likely to have happier productive employees in their 1st year than people that have, like, an orient a a one day, 1 week orientation process. But part of the success of that onboarding process is is continuous feedback Mhmm. Too. Right? And inviting conversation and inviting you know, even your interns have something to say about how well your intern program went and how well, like, it served them over the course of the summer that they were at your firm. So, ultimately, all businesses should be finding ways to improve everything that they're doing. So if you find if you're an individual like, we call them individual contributors in tech. We don't actually have a name for them in the architecture firm. But if you even are, like, in a drafting role and all that you're doing is picking up red lines, like, is is there something that you're consistently picking up that you're like, if we did this if we just changed our standard detail, we we wouldn't have to continue to get like, respond to this red line.

A Mhmm. You know, how many how many times have we gone into the building department and because we haven't updated our detail, they come back with this comment. Like, maybe we should relook at our library. Maybe you're in a firm that doesn't even have a library and you want to build that library. I feel like there's always moments to be entrepreneurial within a firm

C or to think

A about where's an opportunity entrepreneurial within a firm or to think about where's an opportunity for incremental improvement. And I think that's kind of the mindset that I feel like the profession has to have to begin to move things forward. It will ultimately be up to the firm leadership in terms of whether or not they actually listen listen to that. If they're not open to that, for me, personally, that's just a warning sign. That's just a if they're doing things because it's always been that done that way and they will continue to do things because that is the best way for doing things, that for me, that's a firm that's going to fall behind. So that's a firm that you'll never be able to create change in.

B Yeah. I think about it, like, basically, like, every time you go into a new firm environment, like, if you change a firm. Every firm has an ecosystem, and it's very complex. There are basically norms in how firm leaders communicate. They have vocabulary they use. They have things that they believe are right and wrong answers as we talked about. And over time, like, when you live within that ecosystem, you learn it and you understand what the rules are and you play by those rules. It's the same in, like, your family.

B Like, you you go to your house and your parents have rules and you go to your friend's house.

A There's topics you just you stay away from. Yeah.

B You go to your friend's house and you're like, wow. They can talk about those things no problem. That's amazing. I think that to be a change agent, you have to be inquisitive. Like, we do this when we go out on a project site. Like, we'll go and scout it and, you know, walk the site and take photos and understand how the sun influences, you know, the angles on the property. It's the same thing. When you go into these firm environments, you you have to make observations and ask questions about why they're doing things and and why does the firm principle act like that in this scenario or, like, whatever it is.

B And so, like, when you start collecting that data, you can, like, kinda start to see patterns and things that are working and things that are not working. And I think that's really important to also, like, look outside of your ecosystem. So, like, that's why

C Mhmm.

B Being involved with AI is so helpful. Like, when you go to a firm tour like, I know AI San Francisco, Bay Area Young Architects, they do firm tours, so you can go and see how these other firms operate. It, like, it's really informative to being able to say, how do they handle this specific issue? And you can kinda compare it to your own way that your firm does it, and you see where there's, like, a different approach. You know, I think people get caught up, like, in this idea of, like, there are right answers, and this is the way we do it, and this is how it's done. And to to implement change as an individual, you you don't have to blow it up to change it. You can make Mhmm. Small change. You can be thoughtful in communicating and advocating and and pointing out some of these patterns that you see.

B And for people who are patient, like, you can make change over time. For people like me who are very impatient, Mhmm. It can you can wanna push it through, but, I think the most important places to make sure that you're advocating for change is anytime it impacts people, like in staff environment or, you know, people working on your projects, people who are trying to figure out their career development. Like, take care of your team. Like, that's really, in my mind, where the change is needed the most.

C Mhmm. Janine, I wanna ask if you could talk a little bit about what your business is. I know you have a consulting your own consulting business, but I want to hear more about that. Oh, yeah. Sure. Because I think a lot of what you're talking about, I imagine you, like, sit down, you, like, sit your client down, and you're like, and you can, like, say all the stuff that you, like, just said, basically.

B Sorta. Yeah. Sorta. It varies. It's, yeah, I mean, I feel I'm a consultant. I work with architects and business owners who are trying to do good in the world, and they have a really strong business idea, and they're trying to run their company. And, usually, they're architects, and they are connected to the architecture industry in some way. Basically so my my training is part architecture, part business, and I blended that together to think about, like, business strategy and, you know, I'm I I feel like I go in and I I sit with firm leaders, and I hear what they're struggling with.

B And I make observations about what's happening with the operational side of their firm or with the people part of their firm. I'll listen to sometimes the staff and try to tease out, like, what are they saying about what's actually going on in the firm. And I work with those leaders to design solutions to the business around solving those problems. So sometimes that's like you know, people who know me, they know my background came out of marketing, and, actually, Sylvia Kwan, who works with you, hired me for my first marketing gig. So sometimes it's in the realm of, like, marketing specific and communication specific things for the business. I've also done a bunch of work with firm leaders around leadership and mentorship staffing challenges. And I also talk to business owners about overall business strategy when they're just, you know, sometimes they're so focused on their projects that they're not thinking about the business as a whole. And I I've found success in kinda just being someone who listens and helps them try to, like, problem shoot those challenges and come up with, like, really tangible solutions.

C How long do you usually work with a firm? Is it do they hire you for, like, a specific, you know, short period of time to work on one aspect, or is it, like, the long term relationship?

B Most ideally, it's a long term relationship, but it varies. And sometimes it's project specific. Like, there's, you know, a specific task that needs to be completed. And sometimes, like Evelyn, it's very collaborative over a long period of time. And in those instances, I really get to understand the leader and the psychology going on with the leader. And, like, there's, like, a trust that I get to develop with them over time where we we can talk about a wide range of issues and really get into the meat of, like, bigger, broader, long term strategy to support their business. It's kinda like, I don't know, tiny bit like coaching and consulting and therapy all in one.

C I interviewed someone recently, and she said they had hired a firm therapist at one point who, like, came in and, like, talked to everyone and, yeah, sort of dissected, like, the state of their firm. Yeah. Yeah.

B And I learned how to do this by just working in so many different firms and working with so many different, leaders. Like, you know, maybe my career up until I started my business full time wasn't totally what I wanted, but I got I gained so much value out of being inside of firms and seeing how they operate and working at different types of firms. So looking at how large firms who have corporate structures are very different than medium sized firms. And I just you know, I really wanna say that I'm I'm grateful to all of my mentors that, like, I worked with who have who have basically been entrepreneurs in the architecture space and

C Mhmm.

B Mentored me in what it means to be entrepreneurial, what it means to go out and start a firm when you're in your thirties. And I feel like while I didn't grow into being a licensed architect who runs my own practice, I feel like I'm honoring them by being a firm or, like, a business owner in my thirties that, you know, is trying to figure out a different way to give back.

C Yeah. Evelyn, I wanted to hear how things at Slack are going, and has your your role there changed throughout the past year, since you started?

A Well, definite definitely just because just because what the office is Yeah. To everyone has changed, and also because Slack, even with our product, we went through a revolution in terms of how in terms of the employee experience that we wanna have. So we were very much an an office culture company. 5% of our workforce was remote. Of our then close to 3,000 global workforce was remote. Now we have essentially gone digital first, which means with the exception of of a few teams, like, people have really great flexibility of when they want to come in the office. And we're being really conscientious about what that means in terms of equity and growth for individuals. And they're we're being really intentional about, like, everything that we do, what that means from an operations policy and process place, from everything, from decisions we're making about how we hire people.

A We've been hiring a lot more people remotely, which means that I feel like we're getting the best talent no matter where they live. Because inevitably, you're going to have people that no matter how much you pay them, their circumstances don't allow them to move to a place that is closer to the office. Right? Because you're I mean, that you're essentially upgrading an entire, you know, a person's entire life in those instances. So I feel like we're we're getting the best talent no matter where they're located, but our statistics have shown that our most recent like, the last year of hiring, we've hired we've had greater diversity in the number of greater diversity in the demographics of the employees that have joined Slack than historically the past 5 years or or 7 years that we've been a company. So right now I'm in that work stream of help us think about the employee experience from all of these different angles, even as we look to open up offices. And and what does that what does does that mean? What does the change management look like? What behaviors do we want to encourage in our office that we might not have been seeing before? I was a workplace consultant, so I was in a lot of different companies offices previous to going in house at Slack. And we have this unusually library quiet culture in an open office. There have been some architecture studios like that that I walked into.

A It's I mean, it's kind of like so so the long and the short of it is if the office is really a place for collaboration, then can we evolve our behavior outside of of what was previously happening in the open office? And can we create new environments just through even changing furniture and onboarding people in a different way that begins to encourage new behaviors in the office. So all of all of those, that's kind of the stratosphere of where I I am. Slack is also going through an acquisition right now. So it's it's interesting that you were talking about your acquisition, you know, from your company to a smaller firm to, you know, DLR. Slack, I think we're a little under 35100 right now. Salesforce is 65,000. By 2025, they wanna be a 100,000. I had never thought I would be at a company, especially coming out of architecture firm that was ever that large.

A And it it is interesting to it'll be interesting to see where I land on the other side. Yeah. I feel like as organizations grow, it's hard to remain it's hard to keep that cross collaboration flow going because because at a certain scale, some people have to specialize in order to just get things done. So

C Mhmm.

A So I don't know if my role will be nearly as cross functional if I like, on the

C other side, but we will see. What do you both feel will be the biggest challenge as architecture firms emerge out of the pandemic, assuming there's not, you know, a delta variant that shuts everything down again. But, you know, what will be the biggest challenge as they emerge, and what are your thoughts on, you know, how they can address what those challenges

B are? I think from what I'm seeing, I'm seeing really eager firm owners that are ready to get everybody back in the office, and I think there are gonna be challenges that there's probably what the firm owner wants and then there's what their 30 employees want. And there's gonna be a gap between that that has to either be worked out or there's gonna be some strong arming going on.

C Yeah.

B And I think also every time we've had a conversation with someone getting up getting ready for season 3, like, everybody's handling it differently. So, like, there's so much variation from firm to firm and state to state about how people are going back that it's gonna kinda take some time, I think, for all these different companies to transition. Mhmm.

A I'm worried about the bumpy road back. For all intents and purposes, I think all the research I'm doing into the hybrid practice is going to be relevant for at least, like, 5 years. You know, it's 1 firms it's all everything I'm hearing coming out of firms is different. Firms are having problems communicating with one another. Firms are making decisions about being more flexible, but, like, not setting up a digital HQ to really enable that flexibility Mhmm. To happen. There are definitely a handful of firms who have, like, gotten all of their ducks in a row. They're they tend to be the smaller ones where the team is the firm and the firm is the team.

A I don't know. There's all these various different approaches, you know, like, so many days in the office or we want we want 1 if you have just joined the firm and are of a certain level, you have to spend every day in the office that everyone else doesn't have to spend every day in the office. Yeah. You know, how do we communicate? You know, our adoption of new technologies as a firm like, think about that. Like, if your firm is using Revit, does everyone actually know enough in your firm to actually use the tool? So now if you think about creating a digital headquarters, like, trying to get everybody on Teams or Slack or in Google, like, there are firms that have adopted this. But then if you, like, do a survey, like, not everyone is using the tool. The the the management behind, like, the behavior change that needs to happen to make it successful is not there. I I think the firms that are more agile, that are open to prototyping how they're working and figuring out what works best for them coming out of it and is communicating and getting feedback from their employees are the ones that are gonna be the most successful.

A I feel like the firms that are trying to set up policies, in in a vacuum or or or trying to to bend policies because that's what they think is right for the firm are going to struggle more. I mean, I talked to a small firm practitioner and they were like, oh, well, our people really love being in the office. So, like, they they've they've been coming back to the office, but we've been talking about having more flexible time. And we're worried that if we give them open ended flexibility, then no one will show up. And I was like, but you

C You just said that people like to You

A just said, but it was, like, literally in back to back sentences. And I was like, do you just realize what you just told me? So so I I don't know. I I would encourage firms to, like, actually kind of and and firms are doing a lot of surveys, but actually take that feedback in a meaningful way and create policies collaboratively. I think people will understand the decisions you make behind why you have to be in the office x, y, and z days rather than just being told we need you in the office x, y, and z days. Like, that's bring everyone along for the ride. And I I feel like that's where architecture firms struggle the most. But if you tell everyone why you're making the decisions you are and you overcommunicate, which I think is a lesson that we all learned, like, we could do better through the pandemic. I I think no matter what, you'll be better off in the end.

C I think you're right that no one really knows what they're gonna a lot of people don't know what they're gonna do yet, and everyone will end up doing different things. And I think it'll it'll be really interesting to see how this all plays out over the next, like, 6 months to 2 years. Right.

A I do encourage, though, firms I mean, here's where I really struggle with architecture firms. We are so incredibly creative when it comes to our projects. But when it comes to, like, execution, like project management implementation, we are like, we've this is the way we've done it, and we will continue to do it because this has worked for us. Like, why do we struggle so much to apply that same level of creativity to kind of how we go about doing our work? Maybe that's a rhetorical question, but, like Yeah. For me, I'm just like we're naturally creative. We are constantly asking our clients to be uncomfortable Mhmm. In our design process. Yet, we are we cannot be uncomfortable in our own business.

B Yeah. Evelyn, I I think you said it really well. I think, you know, for me, like, this next decade and certainly the next year as we come out of COVID, like, I think firms and leaders need to be thinking about how we're redesigning this industry and our individual practices to value our employees and put our people at the forefront of how we think about our businesses. We're a profession that has been very top down for a long time, and I think that's starting to shift. And we need to make sure that our staff are a priority, that they're financially supported, that they are professionally supported, that they are emotionally supported. And in order for them to deliver their best services and design great projects, like, show me an award winning project where the staff didn't wanna leave after CA. Show me a firm that's able to retain their people and

C Yeah.

B Where people who worked on the project felt like they really got something out of that project, and it's beautiful, and it's sustainable, and it's, you know, award winning. In order for us to make the contributions that I know architects want to make on society, in cities with the climate. I think it has to start by valuing our staff and managing our projects in a way that treat our staff as well as we want to treat the communities that we're building these projects for.

C Do you have any thoughts or examples of what kind of services you think more architecture firms could or should offer that they're that they're not doing yet?

B It's gotta come back to valuing, you know, what we are offering, like, first and foremost. Like, be clear. Like, what are you what kind of projects are you going after? What work do you wanna be doing? Are you taking on work just because you need work and you're worried that you're gonna run off the cliff? Like, you need to design your project pipeline to chase work that you want and and be persistent to bill for what you want, which I know is very, like, optimistic and doesn't always happen. But when we drop our rates, when we are not actually figuring out the staffing required to execute the project and then coming up short during CA hours, like, you know, learn from that and, like, shift it. And those those problems have to be addressed. And then I think the ad services, Evelyn, you probably can speak better to that.

A Yeah. I mean, I think there's so I was just thinking, you know, a good example of this goes back to first season, our episode with Ilia Azarov. Like, he serves underserved communities, and he still manages to have and maintain, like, a very successful, like, and healthy employer relationship even given his client's type. So there's definitely, like, opportunities to find efficiencies. Mhmm. MK Think started their strategy group because architects were brought to the table. Architects are are in brought to the table too late. Right? Like, usually, our point of entry for the most part is an RFP or after clients have decided that they need an architect.

A So so for them, strategy was a way of of getting in the door earlier and truly being a trusted adviser to an organization. There are all sorts of opportunities around just applying the project management skills that we have to reorganizing systems and operations orders, like operations, processes, and policies in organizations to to get on that front end, to move the needle and actually be the decision maker saying, like, you you can do this within your existing footprint. Or if if you want to be an organization that makes a greater contribution to the community, then you shouldn't be putting your office in class a built office space on the, you know, the upper floors of the high rise tower. Like, really be in the mix to talk about where where people should be locating their buildings, not just be brought in afterwards. Yeah. There's so many opportunities out there if you think if you think more entrepreneurially about what you can be doing. And then, you know, everything that we've really talked about is all pre architectural services. I think I think there's a wealth of, like, how do we engage post handover? There's other opportunities even at the residential level, even at the commercial level, at the institutional level that we can help on the operations side.

A Plus, I feel like so many times we design buildings, and then we don't get the opportunity to to go through the change management. So our buildings are aren't used, and this happens a lot, I feel like, in the public realm. Like, our buildings are never used the way they

C were. Mhmm.

A The design the Yeah. The design intention behind it.

C Yeah.

A You know? So so there is a real space to play in there as long as we can understand and are able to commute the value in the language that those business partners need to know to understand that, like, and act if you if you actually pay me for this change management for post occupancy services, If it will drive your bottom line because you will see added efficiencies in x, y, and z. But we have to be able to create metrics and data around that to kind of position ourselves in that space.

C Yeah. An example from I just thought of this or remember this from DLR Group is DLR does a lot of k through 12, like, educational projects, and we've you know, the firm has invested a ton of, like, money into research and development to, like, figure out the best ways that you know, like, what kind of spaces are most conducive to, like, low younger education, like, learning and and things like that, and, like, understanding the best ways for people to learn and then using that to inform, you know, how they design these k to 12 projects. But then these spaces are not being so different than what a lot of, like, teachers, like, are used to or, like, know how to teach in. So then there's this whole other sort of service that they've developed where it is all about teaching, like, people how to use the spaces they've developed. So it's like you design a space and then you also have people pay you to do how to use it.

B Yeah. I know it's I know it's really challenging and and especially working today, like, we always feel like we have so many competing things on our plate. Like, someone's emailing us. We have a project deadline. You know? And especially firm owners. I don't wanna beat up on firm owners because I know running a business is really hard, and there's a lot of complexity to manage. But I think what the point is is when you intentionally manage around the complexity that you know is gonna have an impact on your profit, It's important because it benefits so many other factors of your business. It allows you to scale.

B It allows you to treat your staff well. You can diversify into doing other things.

C Yeah. So I wanna be respectful of both your time, and just end with one last question. So what is something each of you finds really inspiring right now?

A One thing that I actually find in inspiring is it is an employee market right now. I've been in a lot of, social media channels and social media groups that are you know, people are asking, like, you know, my firm is not being as flexible as I would like them to be. Is this an opportunity to switch firms?

C Mhmm.

A So I think I think firms like, I'm kind of excited by the fact that the firms are going to have to face this challenge, like, direct head on Mhmm. And that and that employees are kind of making decisions with their feet.

C Definitely.

B I'm inspired by all the amazing talent out there that, I mean, just doing the podcast, we get to speak to so many ambitious leaders who are doing different things and thinking about things differently. And I think in every architecture firm out there, there is untapped potential, gen x, millennials, gen z coming up. I know, you know, I'm a little biased. I love the boomers a lot, but I do think that, like, you know, as we start to create more space for gen x and millennials to to have a voice inside of firms, when they feel less restrained, they're gonna do amazing things. I mean, there's so much potential when I think about the people that I know that are working inside of firms that I know when they become firm leaders, it's gonna be a different industry entirely. And so that's what it gets me excited. I mean, I and I will say from my own experience, like, personally, I have been wanting to be a business owner my entire life, and I've been working towards this moment. So for me, I'm really inspired because I feel like I'm finally getting to run my own business.

B I don't have somebody standing over me telling me that I can do this or I can't do that, and I'm doing it. And so I feel excited about the next 5 to 10 years of my life as I build my business.

C It's been so much fun. I know. What are you I feel like it went by so quickly.

A I know. What are you inspired by, Catherine? Yeah. What are you

C inspired by? I am inspired by I feel like I've seen a lot of movement since last summer with firms and, you know, issues surrounding equity and inclusion. And a lot of it does feel like sometimes it does feel a little performative, but I do feel like there is, like, slow forward moving progress. And I feel like it'll become more and more of a business issue as well. Like, we're seeing in more RFPs, you know, like, clients are asking, like, what's your poll like, what are your what's your stance on EDI? You know, so, like, the more clients request it, the more I feel like firm owners will be like, oh, like, we have to even if it's, like, not for, you know, like, the morally correct reasons, if it's, like even if it's driven by, like, a business decision, I feel that'll still ultimately be good. And in my mind, the evolution has kind of been, you know, like, sustainability in architecture where yeah. Like, maybe back in the day, a handful of firms, like, truly believed in sustainability, but then once there's, like, a business reason to like, now everyone has, like, the sustainability, like, tab on their website. And a lot of it is still performative, but I feel like that has become sort of accepted within the practice, and I feel like, I'm hoping that issues around equity inclusion will get there as well. I'm hopeful.

C It's slow. There's a lot of backwards thinking too. I think we'll get there.

B Yeah. I'm optimistic.

C I'm also inspired by gen the Gen z people because I feel like when I was in architecture school, I just sort of, you know, accepted whatever was being, like, thrown at me. But I feel like like kids these days, they call things out. I feel like I hear about students, you know, like, protesting what kind of classes are being taught in architecture school. So I feel like the next generation even more vocal about, like, not standing for, like, you know, the old ways and not like millennials are. So I feel like they'll also be a driving force for change.

A Thank you, Janine, for suggesting that we bring Katherine on. I really enjoyed having her on as our guest and our moderator for the season opener.

B Yeah. I'm so happy to do it because it's funny. Like, she and I both worked at the same firm, but at different times. So we were connected to all the same people and have a very deep understanding of the culture of that firm and but we never got to work together. So this was kind of a nice way to make that happen.

A Absolutely. So what are you excited about either for this season or kind of as the second half of twenty twenty one wraps up?

B I'm really excited about the fact that we've we've already done 40 episodes. I feel like we have learned so much through the process of creating a podcast. It it's taken some time, but our confidence, I think, is much higher than it was when we started out. I think we've figured out, like, what works and what doesn't work with the podcast, and and we're starting to really think about specific research topics that we wanna go further on, which is really cool. So I I feel like we're starting to move in a really strong direction in terms of going deeper with this work.

A I'm interested in going deeper, but I'm also interested in kind of all the threads that like, the additional threads that have kind of emerged that we can begin to pull on and, just other areas that we can explore. I think in in light of, like, continuous improvements as a whole, like, there it's just for me, it's just like it's never ending, but in the best way possible, that just means that we can always continue to get better.

B I think that's a good point. And, like, I think I'm most inspired by the fact that there's so much more that we can continue to do with the podcast. It's not it wasn't like we hit a a end to this journey. Like, I feel like this journey is just kinda beginning.

A Yes. And I think that's a great place to end our opening episode for season 3. Thank you for joining us. We have a new episode coming out every Thursday. Thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

B Thank you to Twinmotion for their support of this podcast episode. Visit twinmotion. Link/disrupted and try Twinmotion for

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