Disruption and the Season 2 Finale

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operation solution built for architects by architects. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hi, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. We are at the end of our season 2. 40 episodes for Practice Disrupted.

A Yeah. Congratulations. This is a really big milestone for us.

B It is. I remember us pondering when we committed to doing 40 episodes in 2 seasons in 2021 and we were wondering how are we ever going to fill the airwaves? But here we are halfway through 2021 and at the end of our season 2.

A Yeah. And if you've been listening along, I just wanna say thank you. You know, it just really means the world to us that you guys are enjoying the content that we're creating and that people seem so engaged when we talk to them about the show and that we've had such amazing guests on the show, really deep conversations that have been really rewarding. So thank you to everyone who's been supporting us along the way.

B No. Thank you for everyone. Thank you for your emails. Thank you for your reviews. Thank you for your LinkedIn requests, and your responses on Instagram and social. This is those are, like, really the only mechanisms that we have to know that what you are hearing or what we are saying is really resonating with you. So thank you for participating and making this a two way conversation as well.

A Absolutely. And as part of our season finale, this episode is dedicated to you, the listeners, who have been following along. We wanted to take the show and make it more of a two way dialogue. So you all submitted some questions and ideas and comments to us, and we will be sharing some of those ideas back with you.

B Yes. And as we did with season 1, we are bringing our producer back into the conversation with us. So, Janine, why don't you introduce Demetrius?

A Okay. So Demetrius Lynch is a key part of our team, and I think we go into that in the interview. But here's his bio. Demetrius Lynch is the founder and principal architect of Lines and is a California based architect and NCARB certified. He has practiced both domestically and internationally in various building types with a focus on residential and specialty in retail. He's also lead AP and well certified. Demetrius also created and hosts Spaces podcast, a show dedicated to detailing the spaces that we occupy every day. To expand on this endeavor, he also cofounded and is the chief creative officer of Gable Media, which is a multimedia network that empowers global thought leaders in architecture, engineering, and construction to entertain, inspire, and share their knowledge with an audience dedicated to building a better world.

A Let's cut to the conversation. We're at our season 2 finale, Evelyn, and I thought there was only one person that I could think of that we needed to bring on for this final episode, our 40th episode, and that's Demetrius Lynch who has been a key contributor to the podcast over both seasons. Yes. Welcome, Demetrius. Hi.

C Hey. Thanks for having me back, guys. This is gonna be fun to get back into this and and talk about some of the things that that you guys have done this season and and overall.

B Yes. For those of you don't who don't know, Demetrius is the producer of our show over at Gablemedia, but he's also the primary editor for all of our shows.

A That's right. So every episode, if you've enjoyed it, you can thank Demetrius because he's been helping to edit it and make sure that it sounds really great as it comes through on our release dates. So and the other thing I wanna talk about is that Demetrius is an architect. He he has his own small business and he practices in California. And so I thought this might be an interesting conversation just to start. Demetrius, as an architect, you've you've listened to our show, you've heard our ideas about how to shift practice. I was wondering what conversations stood out to you when you were listening to season 2, And maybe there's even conversations that you wanted to jump into that you weren't able to.

C So the interesting thing is when when editing these, I'm looking at them from so many different points of view, 1 as an editor, 2 as a also podcast host, had been, from the practice side. I've had a wide ranging experience where I had the opportunity to work in a small firm, large firm, medium sized firm. So a lot of perspectives and different things that you guys talk about, have just been really interesting to be a fly on the wall and and kind of hear what you guys are talking about. But I think there was one specific moment in a episode recently. I believe it was with George. It was one specific line where he was talking about the difference between architecture and technology industries, And he said something along the lines of how in the tech industry, they're a very tight knit group. And once one makes it ahead, they sort of reinvest in each other and support each other as they progress. Was that George that's at the

B It was George.

C Okay. That moment was like light bulb, mind explosion, all the emotions in the world, all at once.

B Industry that supports one another, especially, like, those that are struggling?

C Exactly. It was, it was just such a a profound moment listening to it for that was one of the moments that I wanted to, like, jump in the show and just ask more and dig more into that, because that that was just such a a strong powerful moment. And being on the podcast side that's, focused on the AEC industry, you really get a good look at that kind of dynamic because saying not supportive is kinda strong, but I would say that our community, our industry is less enthusiastic about being supportive.

B I would go so far as to say not supportive sometimes.

C If you have to go anywhere outside of your way to to do something extra, most people will will not do it in a AC community. I don't know what it is. It could be just busy at work. Could be some of that competitive edge that was bred in during school or whatever it is. There's something there, but, but it was a real profound moment to hear that and to you know it in the back of your mind, but when you hear it out loud, you're like, oh my god. That makes total sense. So that was probably one of the moments that I really wanted to to jump in.

B One of the interesting things too, if you look at the spatial syndicate, if you look at Kat and Leona and George, you know, they're on the younger side of our of the AEC industry profession. So Yeah. They're already giving back in so many ways. The the other thing that's interesting to this whole thread is I've been on a lot of social channels that have talked about all the non competes that architects put in place, which is something that you have to sign as a new employee. Like, right on day 1, I promise to not compete if I ever leave the firm. So I think that in and of itself is kind of speaks towards exactly what you're saying.

C I have I worked in one firm where they had something in their paperwork that said that you can't bring anyone that is not an employee into the building. I was like, nope. There's nothing here to steal. It's like cookie cutter development homes. Like, no one cares. So it was yeah. It's it's a frustrating industry at times when you look at things like that.

A One of the other things that I wanna talk about since you brought that up is the fact that we're part of Gable Media, which is this network of of shows that are developing all types of content and, like, Demetrius, you have your show, Mark has his, Entre Architect. We also have some other, shows that we're connected to like Troxell and build your brand. So there's there's a community that's growing around this podcasting effort And, you know, it's it's interesting because I do think of podcasters a little bit as entrepreneurs in a way because it it does take that same kind of outward

C Their businesses.

A Their businesses and they're they're chasing this vision that they have for themselves. But we've been talking to some of the other women who are doing podcasts, like, she builds, which, I know they're interested in Gable Media and Voices podcast designs

C Design voice.

A Yeah. Design voice with Katherine. Anyway, it's just it's really cool because I think to come back to that idea of, like, supporting each other, like, I do see this growing community around podcasting for AEC, and that's nice. What's been rewarding about working with Gable has been the support with you. You've had our back from the start. We've really appreciated that. And then, of course, Mark. And I just wanna read a quote that Mark shared with me last night knowing that we were coming into recording this 40th episode.

A So he says, with almost 20,000 total downloads from listeners in 47 countries around the world, Evelyn and Janine are impacting the profession with practice disrupted well beyond the success we ever expected. The growth of this niche podcast focused on a very small population of forward thinking practicing architects has been remarkable. So, Demetrius, I'm gonna turn the table back to you.

B That was the first time I've heard that.

A Yeah. Isn't that amazing?

B I didn't know we had Thanks, Mark.

A I didn't know we'd been downloaded in 47 countries. That's pretty cool. But, Demetrius, I'm curious. Like, you've watched this trajectory of growth. You've seen kind of our growth pattern through season 1 and now season 2. What are your observations about where the show has come?

C So there's a couple different ways I can take this from a from a technical standpoint and, you know, behind the scenes. I think the 2 of you have gotten more comfortable over time and, really kind of gotten into a groove as far as discussing topics with your guests. So much comfort to the point that I had to talk to you guys about getting too comfortable and, like, getting and Evelyn getting emotional and banging on her desk while she's recording. So those little things of, like, don't forget you're still recording a podcast. Don't get too into it. But your comfort level and just, you know, being in the moment, I've seen that evolve over the time. And then just generally kinda looking back at a big picture of the entire show, This isn't necessarily a evolution thing per se, but just looking back at the whole show, you guys consistently have topics that fall into 2 categories in my mind. It's either 1, something that has always been in my mind, and I'm I listen.

C I'm like, I'm so glad someone is saying this out loud or expressing these emotions or digging into this more or focused on changing whatever it is. So I'm just, like, yelling at the screen or my earbuds, whatever, that I agree whenever, certain people come on and say certain things. And then the other category, it's things that are brought up in my mind that I think I should probably look more into this and find out more because this is gonna be big or this is important. So those are the the things that kinda looking at your show have stood out to me over over the time.

B I think if, you know, even a quarter of our listeners are able to categorize our shows in those two categories, I would be super happy and say that's kind of what we were hoping for from the beginning.

A I agree. And I know that we jump around a lot, which actually has been very intentional. We we jump from topic to topic, and we don't always have a succession of similar topics. And what I've been hearing from people is they kinda go to the episodes that they relate to or they wanna know more about, and so they might download the architecture and series and be really interested in that, or our diversity series, which is the voices from the future of the profession and the Asian American architects, or they focus more on the, we've had a lot of people interested in the tech episodes. So there's something for everyone, and I think that's been really fun to have kind of a a playground of different topics that we can go to and explore, which all relate back to a lot of similar themes that Evelyn and I are interested in, which is practice and management and business strategy. Like, at its core, that's really where a lot of this work stems from is our desire to research topics that relate to those larger topics.

C Yeah. I really like the architecture and series. That episode, I think it was towards the end of last season with, I'm gonna forget her name. She works at, the Star Wars. She did this yeah. Rebecca. That episode was so good. Just hearing about her story of how she got from was a psy arc into into set design and that, her journey to finally ending up where she is now was so fascinating, inspiring because I kinda toyed with that direction a little bit, so I found that really interesting.

C But I wanted to jump back to another episode that really stood out, which was not necessarily jumping back. It wasn't that long ago. It was with Atelier Cho Thompson.

A Oh, yeah.

C That one really stood out to me as a small firm or solo entrepreneur because of the way that they're approaching their business. It really laid out a lot of good thoughts and ideas about how to diversify I'm still trying to figure out how exactly to execute on it. So as as a single person, it's, as a sole like a sole proprietor, it's hard to execute these things. So they they were very fortunate to to find each other. Hopefully, I could get a good partner on this architecture side to help kinda delegate some of this effort, but the way that they laid out their business is kind of the direction that I wanna go. Just gotta get there somehow.

B Is that an open invitation to listeners who might be interested in partnering with you going forward?

C Yes. I'm looking for partners in a lot of different, avenues. So if you're looking to start businesses or get involved in anything that you know that I'm working on, feel free to reach out.

B And, Demetrius, you know, we're always here if you just need to bounce business ideas around too.

C Yeah. Yeah.

A But you bring up a really good point, and, actually, Evelyn and I have been talking about this offline is, you know, we are reaching really high for these big ideas that maybe a small firm owner seem hard to reach. But what we're hoping is by setting that really far aspiration that it sets the vision for the potential of what could happen so that you're looking and thinking about it beyond what you know and out to what it could be.

C Yeah. No. That makes total sense. And I go through that listening to all of these episodes. I'm fortunate that I'm in a position where I hear everything that comes out of the cable media, so I have so much information coming into my brain. It's you can see the grays, like, just over overtaking my head, just from so much information. So, yeah, while I know I cannot execute a ton of these things or the majority of these things, I have it in my mind of what I need to do. And at some point, you know, I'm working out things in my mind that, okay, I need to do this at some point, and now it's just a matter of blocking out the time to start to set up those frameworks.

C At some point, I'll get frustrated enough to actually block out the time. I think that's kinda what what it takes. Someone once told me that, oh my god. I'm gonna butcher this saying, but someone someone listening will probably know how that actual saying goes, but it's to the point of when the pain becomes too great, you'll eventually at some point, you'll switch over and and do whatever that other thing is, if that makes sense.

B Mhmm.

C That's kinda how I ended up what I'm doing now. The pain of staying at my previous firm was too great, and I finally decided to go and start my own stuff.

B No. I I mean, I think that's so true of a lot of things. Right? I I I remember that when I at one point, I was looking for a new strategy job, but the market was really, really good, And everyone just wanted to hire that person with 14 years of experience to kind of do project management and get things done. And I was like, no. This is a great time to think about starting a new line of business, and no one wanted to hear it. And then as soon as we went into the recession or as soon as things began to take a dip, they're like, Oh, Evelyn, now we're kind of interested in talking. We're seeing things slow down. We're kind of more interested in talking to you now about this other revenue stream that you mentioned.

B I think we all we all do those type of things.

C I'm gonna dig into that topic, a little bit on one of my podcasts at some point. But the way that our industry looks at things and a lot of businesses in general of like these 10 year markers and things like that, I feel like it's the wrong way to hire. I think we look at the wrong metrics to hire people. You should be looking for people that have innate abilities and, sort of the intrinsic value. While it's more difficult to see on a piece of paper, you have to look for, like, lifelong learners, people that are gonna go out of their way to do things on the weekend and figure it out rather than, you know, you've been working in Revit for 5 years or whatever whatever is on the job posting. But, anyway, I I digress. Go on that topic.

A You're spot on. I mean, I was gonna say, I did notice that you changed your LinkedIn profile to architect plus or architecture plus, which I love.

C I stole that.

A I love it. From

C you guys.

A But you but you are. Like, you're very, like, multidimensional in terms of, like, all of your pursuits. But I agree. I think what has led me to this point where I'm doing podcasting and running my own business was frustration, pain, and to your point, just like try trying so hard over 12 years to figure out my fit in the profession and getting tired of the same problems coming up in practice that the opportunity to go do my own business was my chance to go out and, you know, see if I could figure it out for myself, figure out how to make my own dream come true instead of trying to I heard a great quote. I think I was watching the, the Michael Jordan basketball Netflix series that just came on about the Chicago Bulls. And I just remember, like

C So good.

A It was so good. I mean, if you want a leadership tutorial, like, go watch that series. It's great. And you get to see, like, Michael Jordan up close and, like, you know, we all know him for his leadership abilities, but, it also talks about his flaws as a leader and the consequences of that. But it made me laugh because they were talking about Dennis Rodman, and they were saying that, during practice, one of the assistant coaches kept trying to, like, coach him. And the head coach was like, man, leave him alone. You don't put a saddle on a Mustang. And I was like, oh my gosh.

A That's me. That's me. Like, I had felt, like, the whole time going through architecture professionally that people were trying to use me like I was a pencil to draw construction documents or to model something to complete their vision of what the project was. And I was like, you have the wrong person. You're using me incorrectly. That is not my gift in this world. Don't use me like a pencil. You've gotta let me go because you'll get, like, quadruple the return.

A I promise. But it I'd I could never figure out how to explain that professionally I also get to run as hard as I want to and figure it out for myself, which I love, and it's so rewarding. And I feel like the thing I love most about this podcast is it's just it's been a creative field to just create and to explore and to talk about all these topics, Evelyn, that you and I are very passionate about.

B I love that analogy. Now I have to go watch the series. There's very few series that I feel my husband and I can watch together, but I I feel like that's going to be one. You know, as architects, we also need to, the saying has become more and more prevalent lately, but, you know, give ourself race. Like, I feel like our starving artist attitude translates into all of the reasons why we stay in the wrong place too long too. Right? Like, I love my client relationship. I can't ever leave this client relationship behind. I love I hate the management, but I love my team.

B How could I ever leave this team with this management? You know? But, like, those like, it's all of those things I like, I feel that there's just a lot of people that have stayed in the wrong place for too long, have that continue to suffer longer than they need to because of those other intrinsic, like human relationships or the necessity to finish a project that they started even though it might be like, I've talked to architects that are like, this project's expected to last some like, wrap in 3 years. So, you know, just give me this 3 years, and and then I'll be ready to move

C on. Do you guys think it's a personality thing that certain types of people are attracted to the industry and do this to themselves? Or do you think it's an industry Sort of a chicken or egg question, I guess. Or do you think that's the industry? And the third option, I guess, is they reinforce each other.

A I have a really strong opinion about this, which feel free to disagree. But after observing, I think there are certain personality types that succeed over time in this industry and are rewarded because they have certain personality traits that fit better within the way the model of architecture is designed to be practiced. So if you're someone who is highly detail oriented, you're very, I do think it attracts introverts. I have to be honest. People who are willing to sit at their desk for long periods of time and do the work without being distracted, unlike us social butterflies, I think that those are the people that I see it as they make it through, and they and they have really found their success long term. Now there are extroverts, and they usually end up in these, like, leadership positions because they're willing to go do business development and run the firm and do all the, like, social part of the job. And I've heard different stories, but I do find that they tend to have, a harder time with the technical parts. But what they contribute to the firm is still valuable.

A It's just that, like, the the industry doesn't prioritize that as heavily as design or the technical capabilities. That's my opinion.

B That's interesting because I definitely do not classify myself as an extrovert. I would say that I fall on the introvert side. Sorry. Go ahead, Demetrius.

C Yeah. No. I was gonna say that I can see that, and it makes sense that the people that are not head down just crank out all the work will struggle because the first 20 years of career in architecture specifically is about keep your head down. Just do what I say.

B Isn't that sad?

C So And

B the fact that you put, like, the 20 year marker on it is, like, extra depressing.

A Get ready for the long ride, guys.

B Sorry, new grads who just, you know, graduated into the world with their bright eyes and hopeful dreams of the future of practice.

C Sorry, folks. But I don't know I don't know how you break that outside of having conversations like this. But those people that are a little more extroverted that are going towards the more leadership sort of roles will struggle most of the time in that head down sort of environment. So unless someone spots them and sort of takes them under their wing and helps divide their time, I think, between head down. And then let me show you a little bit of the leadership side, give you some some task on this side of it. That's the only way I think you keep them in the industry. Otherwise, they're gonna go into tech now that that the option is there or to development or something else. They're gonna they're gonna get outside of architecture specific opportunities, and that's, I think, we probably could pull historical numbers on that.

C I'm sure.

B That's an interesting observation to me because that also, you know, I guess an answer to your original question, if people can remember it now, I would, I would go with number 3. Right? Like, I feel like it's a bit of a vicious cycle for us. So if it's the individuals that move forward that are willing to be heads down the 1st 20 years and follow the rules, That also means that, you know, when they step into leadership, that they are a mirror image of whatever they were following. Right? So so that that's just kind of how architecture continues to not evolve in the way that we keep hoping that it will.

A Which creates leadership problems, which we've talked about in prior episodes. I won't get into it. But when you condition people to be followers, then they struggle to become leaders later.

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A I wanna come back to one of our episodes, Evelyn, because episode 22 really talked about the studio culture and and what Future Forum was, researching in in their part of Slack. So Slack has been where Evelyn's worked, as you've heard over the 2 seasons. She had a really great quote about her experience in her 1st week. She said, you're here because you are talented and have something to contribute. You have a voice on day 1. And so she noticed, like, that that was a huge difference from her experience working in architecture. And I wanted to tell you this quote that came up on Instagram from one of our longtime listeners. Niasha Harper Michonne is an architect who works at RAU Architects in Amsterdam, and she responded saying, I loved hearing this and so hope that architecture company culture gets here sometime soon.

A We have a long way to go, but discussions like the ones you share with us with your podcast are definitely part of the journey to get us there.

C It's so cool for me to see these quotes because I don't get to get in the weeds of kind of your social and the comments and things like that. We occasionally see some that come through through Gable, but it's so cool to just see some of these and the impact that you guys are having on the industry.

A Yeah. I wanna read one more, Evelyn, that was about your work specifically on episode 33. You you you were presenting your hybrid work, and my very good friend here in Raleigh said, ah. She emailed me. She said, that last episode on hybrid work, Awesome. Maybe the best episode yet. And that's Megan Bowles, who's an architect at LS 3p here in Raleigh.

C That was a really good episode, Evelyn. I don't even know where you start on digging into all of that stuff, but kudos to you for taking on that work. I've been arguing about this forever. I I think I had actually written, like, a little piece on it, not to the length of digging into actual data that you do, Evelyn, but I don't understand why this has taken so long and took a pandemic to create this environment. But now we have the opportunity, I'll call it, to figure out how do we manage. Because I think it's to some extent gonna have to be both, right, in office and out of office, but figuring out how to do that and all the things that you pointed out throughout that episode were great markers and warning signs for people to keep a keep an eye on as they approach this next phase in in workplace.

B Yeah. I mean, to be fair, pre pandemic, Slack was only 5% remote. And that is with with the product being what it was. Right? Like, if any company should have been more remote, it probably should be the Slack or the Microsoft, whoever is working on the Microsoft Teams, stuff or whoever is working on Google Hangouts. Like those are the teams that should be able to function more remote. So it's been interesting.

C You would think they would practice. They would practice what they're selling.

B Right. And I and I think it it so I'm I'm I guess, I mean, just using that as a reference point that, you know, even the technology companies kind of have been struggling with this. And and now we've adopted the language that Slack is our HQ. But but that, again, that is something that didn't happen until the pandemic. So so in this instance, I don't feel like the architecture profession necessarily is is too far behind. I think it was a a wake up for a lot of different industries. I just think how we come out on the other side is going to be very, very different and industry specific in terms of how we use this opportunity or actually, waste it. And I and I really hope the architecture profession finds a great way to capture that opportunity.

B So, yeah, that's that's my hopes anyways.

A Can I ask you guys because you're based in California and I'm in North Carolina? Are you guys I know, Evelyn, you said you went back to the office this week for the first time just to scout it out and you hadn't been there in over a year. Are are you guys starting to go back out into the world like normal again? Normal, quote, quote.

B Well, I just got my second vaccine on Tuesday, and, you know, we are looking at piloting and open to our office, our HQ at a very, very minimal state. We actually, what is really, really frustrating is to see our Melbourne and Sydney counterparts. Like like, they're living life like it's normal, and they have to tell me, like, Evelyn, we have no cases here. Like, why are you still making a social distance, like, 6 6 meters apart? Like, they have to constantly remind me, like, we are on the other side of the world, and things are different over here because it's it's so hard. I I don't know. California, some parts of California just lifted the mask outside mandate. And it's, you know, who thought it would be weird seeing people walking around without masks? But that's Really weird. But that's kind of like yeah.

B It's weird to me. But, we're slowly opening up.

C The weird thing about California is there's these pockets of different beliefs. I don't know how much that is across the country, but in California, there's pockets. So you end up with these melds of differing opinions and, like, my wife has, some condition that, you know, puts her at risk, so we're being extra cautious. So we were walking down a path, wearing a mask, and someone coming the opposite direction is yelling at me about wearing a mask saying, Fauci said that doesn't work or something like that. So it's like you end up with these weird this weird dichotomy of people's opinions on things. So it's I don't know. It's kinda weird.

A I had a similar experience to Mitrice at the dog park a couple weeks ago, and I got into it with this guy because he was like, why

B are you wearing a mask?

A And I was like, because it makes me feel comfortable. But more importantly, I haven't gotten my second shot yet, so I'm not ready to go maskless. But I actually have started since January going into AI North Carolina a couple times a week, and that was a big, a mental process to get my head back around the comfort level of just doing that. Like, and I would go in, and I was really timid at first. Like, I kept my mask on, and then I slowly got more comfortable. Like, if I stayed in my bubble, then I would take my mask off. But it's I think this is gonna be an interesting I'm starting to see, at least here in North Carolina, people are trying to act like we're going back to normal. Mhmm.

A And it's gonna be interesting to watch this play out over the next year or at least several months as as we go through that transition.

B I've been approaching things at Slack as and I think a lot of companies have been approaching things that, you know this is a prototyping phase, like, in many aspects in terms of open reopening, but, like, I don't think that I'm going to gather any realistic data of what, like, the new future of work is honestly for like another year or 2. Like people have to be okay using all modes of transportation and kind of reestablishing like this is this is the new pattern that I'm okay with now that, you know, the majority. And this is assuming, like, the majority is of the city has been vaccinated. But I I feel like we're not gonna understand what that is for another couple years.

A Maybe another important, thing we should talk about is is our recent episode about Asian American architects. So that got a really big response from the community.

B Thanks to the social media networks of our listeners.

A Yeah. Of course.

B Or our of our or of our, our guests. Yes.

A Yeah. Alvin said, as Asian Americans, we rarely discuss our cultural identity. However, in light of the recent spike in anti Asian racism and the general tenure of 2020, this practice of architecture podcast conversation with host Evelyn Lee alongside guests Annie, Ming, Susan, and myself on the complexities of Asian American identity and experiences in architecture is both timely and important. I hope to see more conversations like this in the future.

C These episodes are always powerful and coming off the tail of, you know, just general racial injustice in that sort of sparked off in or really became mainstream last summer. It's I've had a very difficult time with this whole thing. I don't know if you guys know, my wife is Chinese American, and her father's older and, you know, they're in Northern California. So seeing this kind of stuff happen so close to home for her was just really painful to see and go through. And and, you know, on the on the tails of the racial injustice movement to see black individuals commit some of these crimes was embarrassing, hard to to see, extremely frustrating because it's against everything that everyone's trying to fight for. It's wrong on the infinite amount of levels. And to see that ultimately is just it was just a horrible experience to live through. This whole year has just been extremely difficult to to witness and live through all of this, but I will say that I know the black community in general, I'm gonna speak in general, stands with the Asian community regardless of these individual incidents.

C And those individuals that participated on the in these heinous crimes should all be, you know, sent to jail and receive the highest, punishment possible. So I do wanna say that, and I thought that was a really good episode. And all of these conversations are extremely important to to continue to have. So, yeah, I'll leave it at that. I

B I really appreciate your perspective, and I know that was hard to talk about. So thank you. But I it it ain't I think if anything, that all of this equity, diversity, and inclusion has taught me throughout the year is that you really have to look at every single person as an individual human being with different circumstances, their own personal struggles, to really understand what's going on in their head. So for me, yeah, I I I fully appreciate kind of the raised notice of, like, the the black community coming together with with AAPI, the AAPI community and being on the Asian American side. Like, I I feel that in spite of the individuals who we've seen, committing these crimes.

A Let's see. Chrissa Johnston said on Instagram, I was so incredibly moved by this podcast and will be relistening to it in the weeks to come. Thanks for convening such an incredible panel, and thanks to all the panelists for your honest, candid insights.

C Yeah. And you plan on sort of coming back to this conversation. Right? Or or expanding on the conversation?

B Yeah. And it it's partly my I I mean, I I admit it's partly my fault, and it's part of my own educational experience around kind of everything that every every culture that is umbrellaed under the AAPI community. So I we are in the process for our next season. Well, every season we do some of these types of conversations, but we would like to come back and and revisit the East Asian communities, but a broader a broader retrospective than the representation that we had on this last one.

A I agree. And I think, you know, this has been a learning process for us. I mean, as much as Evelyn and I are very interested in these conversations, like, we're learning how to have these conversations too. Diversity conversations are vulnerable and tough, and, you know, you have to confront your own limitations, your own barriers. You have to open up your heart and your ears. And I have to say, like, just going through the process of both the events that happen in 2020 with the Black Lives Matter movement. I mean, I remember when I was in San Francisco, I drove home, and I remember seeing early before Black Lives Matter became a thing. Individuals from the Black Lives Matter movement were standing on the, Bay Bridge and that they shut down traffic in the opposite direction of what we were heading.

A And we were we were watching this from the other side of the road, from our cars. We were passing, and they were lined up across the the highway lanes. Police arrested them, took them to jail. And then to come forward a year and then having watched my hometown of Richmond, Virginia go through this process of the Confederate memorials being vandalized in such a public way and the community coming around them to dismantle them. I mean, it was so powerful. And then listening to the stories and all of my friends that I've been brave enough to share their experiences, I feel like whatever work I tried to do before 2020 on becoming more aware, was completely just I grew leaps and bounds through this past year just watching and learning and trying to understand these diversity conversations, the black experience, and now a year later coming to the Asian American experience. And I asked Evelyn privately. I was like, you know, we went through this last year with black lives matter.

A Like, how do you feel different now that this is on you? You're it's impacting you directly, and and I think I don't know. It just was really hard to watch Evelyn and some of my friends who I'm very close to in the Asian American community. I could see their pain, you know, after the shootings in Georgia. And it was there's so much that people have to get comfortable with in terms of being vulnerable and listening to these conversations because they're they're so deep, and you cannot just brush the surface with them, and and think that you understand.

C Yeah.

A So I know that was heavy, and and and I just wanna you know, I feel like it's important for us to reflect on that because it's been a big part of season 1 and season 2 and where we'll go in season 3. But to close this conversation out, I wanna ask Evelyn, you know, what is what's been the biggest takeaway for you over these 2 seasons and what you've learned about where we wanna go next with the show?

B I think historically, I've been more of a pessimist when it comes to our profession. But hearing the feedback that we're getting from the show, and partly just knowing that, you know, I'm not alone in my thoughts, has I still might be pessimistic, but I I'm seeing there's opportunity, and I'm I'm there's a light at the end of the tunnel. We we are an old profession. Being involved in institutions like the AIA, it takes, it takes a lot of time to change organizations that are that big. But But thank you, I think, to all of our listeners who send in these comments. It's the only kind of marker that we have that what we are saying is actually meaningful to anyone out there. So thank you for beginning to shine a light in areas of the profession that that I was really struggling to see whether whether or not we would capture those opportunities.

C What about you, Janine?

A I think it's a good point. I think the weirdest thing about podcasting is not especially after you do a lot of public speaking events. Like, Evelyn and I have years of public speaking events at conferences with the AIA under our belt. But then when you do podcasting, you don't have an audience, so you can't you don't you can't pick up on cues, like, that you rely on when you're a public speaker, like, how people are responding, if they're agreeing with you, if, like, you have their engagement. So most of the time it's, you know, Evelyn and I sitting and talking to our computers looking at each other on Zoom behind microphones. And so I I do really appreciate all the feedback. It's been extraordinary to realize some of these observations that I had in my own career are things that other people have experienced as well and feel similarly about, and that's been really validating. So I feel like if we're amplifying a need in the industry, then I feel like we're we're doing our job, and I just feel really passionate about continuing to build this work to really make a difference in individuals' lives and careers.

A I I just don't wanna see anybody have, you know, the same frustrations I've had over the years. And so if this podcast can be, a way forward to help help guide people towards different directions, then I feel I feel really happy about that. So, Evelyn, is there anything you wanna mention before we close out season 2?

B I think we hinted to this in a little bit with our conversations with Demetrius. But, you know, I and I know, Janine, you are too. I'm super appreciative of our growth that we've seen this season. So a huge, huge thank you to all of those who tuned in, from the beginning, meaning probably our, like, family and friends or more so our friends. I don't know if I have a lot of family members listening. But especially, you know, thank you for sharing, and thank you to those who have found us and continue to listen. How about you, Janine?

A Yeah. I I wanna echo that and just say, like, if you've been along for the ride in season 1 and 2, a big thank you to you. We really appreciate everyone who supported us through listening to the show, recommending the show to others, and especially those who've taken the time to reach out to us to share kind words. When we were prepping for this episode and trying to organize these comments and questions from friends and listeners, it was really helpful to take a step back and look at it collectively. All of the comments you guys have shared were very meaningful to both of us, and we love getting this feedback. It just really helps to show us where we're doing things right and where we wanna keep going with the show. So thank you.

B Yeah. I remember, committing to 40 episodes this year and the 2 of us thinking, how are we going to get through 40 episodes? And here we are at the end of our second season, so halfway through those 40. And we've nearly filled up all of our spots for season 3. So, Janine, did you wanna talk a little bit about what our listeners can look forward to when we relaunch in July?

A There is so much to look forward to in season 3. We've been receiving your feedback, and we've been listening to you. And a few things that we're gonna integrate in, To start off, early in our season, we'll be interviewing one of my former professors from business school about workplace culture and what makes a great place to work. We're also bringing in several new entrepreneurs who will help us expand the conversation on entrepreneurship, and we'll look at their individual journeys in starting their companies. So it's kinda like a crossover on the work that they're doing to bridge architecture and their specific passion projects. And, basically, we'll look at what it means to be an entrepreneur in 2021. We're also planning more diversity discussions, and we're gonna continue to look at different perspectives and practice, giving them space to share their stories. And we'll also be looking at more architecture and episodes.

B I wanted to circle back on the diversity conversation because we've had several of these conversations now. And, obviously, we're going to introduce at least one more into season 3. A lot of individuals have been taking these conversations back to their firms and using them as a way to begin to have those important discussions on how to move the needle around equity, diversity, and inclusion in firms. So we're actually considering and love to get your feedback on creating a more structured program for firms using these conversations to begin having more regular dialogue about what it means to be more equitable, diverse, and inclusive, and create kind of a practice of architecture course out of it that then can be used in the firm, and you can simultaneously, you know, earn AIA. We're gonna see if we can get some HSW credits for it as well.

A And I guess last but not least to mention for season 3, you know, from the very start, we were looking at ways to talk about this body of research that we didn't know we were creating around how architects are disrupting the practice of architecture through technology, culture, and emerging business strategies. So we very much plan to continue to do that work in season 3 and beyond and to really think about different ways that, we can be thinking about practice differently.

B Yeah. So I'm super excited. I don't know. I'm just super excited.

A Yeah. Me too. And I I guess, Evelyn, I'm gonna swing the mic mic back to you and say, what's happening over at practice of architecture? I think there's a few updates you have to share.

B Yes. So I am super ecstatic to announce, and we've hinted at this a little bit on and off throughout the season. But this week, we officially opened our doors to the Practice of Architecture Lab, a community where we can take the conversations that Janine and I are having on the podcast and have them live with our listeners, with you, both on our community platform and in monthly Zoom calls where we can actually talk face to face. The lab is really meant to help individuals at all stages in their careers. So helping firm owners reimagine what it means to successfully run and build a hybrid practice, supporting middle managers with the professional development that they need to grow and become great leaders, and giving our emerging professionals, interns, new grads, those new to the profession, a fresh perspective on all the ways that architects can practice. Really, it is for anyone who is looking to collectively find ways to redefine and expand what it means to practice architecture. If you are interested in joining us, visit practiceofarchitecturedot com backslash lab to find out more and join the wait list. And we've been having a

A lot of conversations offline with individuals who care a lot about changing the way we practice architecture. So if that's you, I think this is a great opportunity. Coming out of the pandemic, this is a great chance to get involved with a community of people who are like minded, and we're gonna have really interesting conversations about how to move the needle. So we're at the tail end, Evelyn, of our 40 episodes. I can't believe we made it. So what do you wanna what do you wanna say to close it out?

B I I think we'll end how we always do. Thanks for listening, and be sure to tune in next month. Season 3 launches on July 8th. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from

C us.