The Ultimate Building Configurator

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operations solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast.

C I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

C Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

C Hey, disruptors. Hey, Evelyn.

A So before we jump into our usual opening banter, I wanted to take a moment to celebrate and thank our more than 10,000 unique listeners out there for tuning in and taking time out of their week to listen to Practice disrupted.

C I also wanted to share with you, speaking of listeners, that someone reached out this past week on LinkedIn about the show. It was Jenny from Kalamazoo who said that she found us after listening to our crossover episode with Design Voice Podcast. So it was really great to hear from her, and she was asking about the value of an MBA in an architecture firm setting. You know, initially, we just connected and then started chatting, and she ended up asking about the value of an MBA in an architecture studio setting. So I was explaining that to her, and then we were talking about some of the upcoming diversity series work that we are gonna be preparing for next season. And I mentioned that we're doing a mother's session to explore the point of view of moms in practice, and so she's really excited about that because she's a mom and was talking about her experience of trying to go through managing being a mom and her career.

A That's awesome. I also wanted to mention that things have really been ramping up in the practice of architecture lab. There's been some great chatter in there about employee surveys to move EDI efforts forward, some takeaways from presentation and the process regarding, winning projects, and we're doing this weekly accountability check-in to really see where everyone's head is at and whether or not there's an opportunity to support one another, whether it be approaches to an individual's career, their firm, or even potential new business. And we actually had a new business idea come in last night. I wanted to also mention that on the last Friday this month in September, we are having a webinar talking about IT security and safety within a digital first or hybrid work environment as you think about your return to work. So go to our website, subscribe to our newsletter to register for that. And as I'm thinking about things, Janine, and as we're recording this intro, we should probably reach out to Clifton, this week's guest, and see if he's interested in doing an ask me anything session for the lab.

C Yeah. That'd be great. I've I've really enjoyed the conversations going on in the lab. It's been a nice way to just validate some of the conversations that we're having through our recording session and just checking in with people to see what they're thinking about and meeting so many people too.

A So jumping into today's conversation, Evelyn, why did you wanna bring Clifton on? So I was actually first introduced to TestFit. Io, more specifically Clifton, during a presentation that he and a few others, including Kat Dov, who we've also had on Practice Disrupted during a conversation hosted by AIA National Strategic Council looking at the cross section of architecture, building, and technology, and what's the future look like. Well, I appreciate what TestFit is doing to save time through iterations, and we can talk a little bit about that. You know, Jen Carl, who is also a previous guest, mentioned that architects can really take advantage of getting rid of the mundane tasks. Right? And I feel like that's what test fit is doing, but it's actually more interested in the fact that Clifton, unlike any of our other guests, virtually dived into this entrepreneurial endeavor almost immediately after graduating from college. And he is a true hustler, I would say, in the sense of, like, what it means to be to hustle and be an entrepreneur. So, ultimately, what I was really interested in about Clifton is that he saw where the architecture industry was struggling during his summer internships. Meanwhile, it took me 5 to 7 years to kind of digest what was happening and where the opportunities were.

A You know? So I just wanted to find out from his perspective, how did he come to these insights so fast, and what, if anything, historically kind of motivated this path that he took with TestFit. Io. Janine, why don't you jump into his bio?

C Clifton Harness loves to build buildings and now new companies. He graduated from the University of Texas at Austin with his b arc. And soon after joining a real estate development company, he started working with his college roommate, Ryan. And together, after hours, they started innovating on a prospective new company and deal process. This work grew into TestFit, and Clifton now lives in Dallas with his wife, Annalisa, baby Savannah, and their goldendoodle, Brinkley, as well as 4 chickens. This work grew into test fit. And Clifton now lives in Dallas where he's running his company full time along with his growing team and his wife, Annalisa, and baby Savannah.

A Great. Let's cut to the interview. Tell our guests a little bit about yourself and a little bit about TestFit.

D Sure. So I've got, background architecture, b arc. I am, I guess I'll I'll say the the I'm not a geriatric, millennial. I'm, like, the opposite.

A Although Janine calls herself a geriatric millennial. Did did you get that

C from disqualified. I'm I'm gonna apply for ARPA later.

D I identify much more with, with the Gen z. You know, Internet natives. You know, I I I feel like being this old, and I'm 30, so I guess I'm old now. There's maybe a different perspective that that I bring to the industry, and that's that I was an Internet native. That I, grew up in a world where you could demand instant gratification and get it. And that, you know, like like, early on in my career, I had an architect sit down and talk to me and she said, you know, Clifton, you can either like, every project is either got, you know, a cost, a quality, and a time parameter associated with it. And, like, you can only win 2 out of the 3 when you're, like, designing buildings. And, you know, like, I was kinda, like, listening to that.

D I'm like, yeah. Because our process is terrible. Like, we don't really have a process for scaling our, you know, construction document business. I think I I felt like a bit of a stranger walking into Capital a Architecture as an intern and asked to tag doors with an oval with a piece of text inside it inside AutoCAD, and then was told that, like, the use of blocks was was against the rules. And, like, I was kind of livid in some of my later internships because there was just a lack of of process. Like, it wasn't even a lack of process innovation. It was a lack of even caring about process. And I I worked at some of the most amazing design firms in in Texas, Highest quality buildings.

D The product, absolutely amazing. The people, absolutely amazing. And at the end of the project, you kinda look around turn around and you look at this disaster of process that, like, there was bodies strewn. You know, there's there's problems everywhere. And, like, sure, you have your CFO. Maybe you're you're completely done, but you didn't learn from the process. That was, I don't know, maybe an observation that I had while in architecture school. And at the same time, I was really like, I really wanted to be, like, a Starkitect.

D You know, like, they they they really do a bad job in architecture school. Like like, your your aspirations are are really, really high because you're you're doing, like, things like design a museum, and you're doing things like design a a capital building or a or a library or or any of these these sort of functions, that really cause you to think, how to solve a problem. But in reality, it's, like, very little practical skills to carry into into the into the profession. And so the thing the thing that really started to interest me was commodity buildings. It was, like like, what if I were to be the Bjork Ingalls of, like, apartment buildings? Like, just straight up, like, we gotta provide housing. Like, it's not sexy. It's utility in a way.

A Necessary.

D Yeah. It's it's a necessity. And so I started getting really interested in that, and, decided to, go work for a real estate developer that did the department buildings. And that was that was eye opening as a 18 year old, or 19 year old, I think, to go get your 1st development internship and kind of talk about finance as a as an architecture student. And I think my professors, like they they knew that I was in development internships and they really were uncomfortable with it. Like, they were really uncomfortable with it. They asked me why. And I was like, well, I wanna be able to communicate to my clients, when I'm an architect, and I want to be able to understand their market really well.

D And I wanna understand how they think so so that I can build the best product that I possibly can for them. And, like, early college kid me thinking that. So if you if you wanna be a start up person, like, if you have really deep thoughts like this, but you're gonna have to do it. Like, it's a thing that you have to do. Just gotta get it out sometime in your life.

A To be clear, when it comes to process, you are definitely among friends here.

D Sure. Yeah. I I think the learned technologists really like, they I think we all do the market much the same way that we could really use a lot of process innovation more than, you know, creating new materials or creating new systems that are even more complicated to understand and, I don't know, repeatable parts is like a thought that would come to mind. Like, why why why is there not afford of housing? Like, the best the best housing developer in the US right now doesn't even have, 4% of the market. Like, it is the most fragmented market. It's hard to see where, like, where innovation or where the Quintero emerges that's gonna disrupt everything or, you know, obviously, not Quintero anymore, but, like, what is the thing what's the killer app for housing and what's gonna happen? And I don't think anybody knows. I have ideas. But

A before we jump into TestFit and, just because I wanna find out a little bit more about you, I don't I appreciate your way of thinking, which is obviously why we wanted to bring you on practice disrupted, but I don't think that your average architecture student is coming out of their internship saying, like, this process really sucks. So what about your background or upbringing kind of made you latch onto that? Or That's

D a great question. I used to be able to point to, like, Myers Briggs and be like, you know, this is the sort of, like, bucket that I'm in. You know? The the way that I think is, you know, systems. Think in terms of how do you build big systems that can understand complicated problems simply. I mean, honestly, every architect out there is a systems builder. Like, whether they know it or not, like, the unit is part of the building, which is part of, you know, the block, which is part of the city, which is part of you know, like, everything that you do as an architect is contributing to a system of some sort. But I got really excited about systems thinking as a kid, like, with blocks and leggos and, like, how do you how do you create a system where you can connect blocks with, like, like, things that I was worried about as an 8 year old were, like, those things. Right? But instead now I worry about, I guess, like parking garages and and roads or or something.

A Why don't you tell us a little bit about your company?

D So, cofounded it with, Ryan Griggs, my CTO. He would wake me up and make sure that I get to to studio, on time, like, because you don't sleep at all in architecture school. We we just had, like, a really deep relationship, you know, friendship, really. And that that grew into more of a professional well, not really professional in college. Like, we built a game together. We built a couple of, you know, stupid little apps that that would help little problems for our house. So we had 10 people living in a house, which is amazing. One dishwasher, 10 people.

D Terrible idea. And really through this relationship, I I learned just how powerful programming can be. So, like, at UT, you get exposed or I get or architecture school, I got exposed to Dynamo and Grasshopper and, you know, some of these things that that give the impression of programming, but, like, in a way are are limited, by the same box that they're in. When I was in, development out of school 2015, 2016, I I called Ryan and said, hey, man. Like, I'm really having a difficult time, solving unit mixes. And so unit mixes are a are both a spatial problem and a map problem because, like, you're trying to cram proportions of units in a building, in a in a really good way. Like, you don't wanna just chuck them in the building. Like, you want similar units to stack.

D You want your plumbing walls to be efficient. And so I walked him through the through the problem, and he said, hey. Like, I could probably build an app that would solve that. And I was like, prove it. And he built a he built a simple terminal app. You'd, like, type in your your width of your units and your width of your corridor, And it spit out, here's how you solve this corridor. Here's how you solve this corridor with the units. And it's, like, perfect unit mix, like, in the first, you know, the first go.

D And that like, I looked around. I was like, well, the unit mixes used to take me, like, 4 hours to solve. So alright. What's the next thing? In terms of of TestFit, TestFit likes to think in terms of scale. It likes to think in not I'm not saying, like, 1 to 500 or one to a 1000, but in terms of how do you scale up, like, one architect's ability to be significantly more powerful at their jobs just by providing software. Like, good software, not bad software. Most of the stuff out there is bad software. It's not very focused, 20 years old, needs you know, it wasn't built by by, millennials.

D It was built by a generation that shall not be named.

C Okay. This conversation is really making me think about efficiency because I think that that's the root of what we're talking about. And we've talked about this on the show before with past guests about this desire to eliminate time that's being used in ways that's non efficient so that you can put your time towards other things that are more valuable. And I guess every time I see one of the test fit videos, that's like what I think about is just like how much time is being saved by being able to iterate so fast.

D Yeah. So luckily for us, we're in a part of the market where architects are not getting paid for feasibility studies. And so we basically can reduce their opportunity cost 90 to 95% once they're trained up. One one architect out in he's out in San Francisco. I don't think I could say his name. But he said, you know, Clifton, it's like turning a intern into a guy with 10 years of experience overnight. And I was like, yeah. That's, yeah, that's what happens when you embed intelligence, like, into a tool.

D Right? Like, what if we had been embedding design intelligence into tools from 19 sixties, 19 seventies, 19 eighties on. We would be a very different world. But you have to deal with the human component. Like, everybody's everybody's really obsessed with efficiency because they think that they want efficiency. They think that they want things to be done quickly. In reality, I think what people want is is a is to feel trust, whenever they look at the thing that just got generated, and they wanna be able to trust that thing. And so invariably, like, every time you start a new project or if it goes from, like, you know, SDs to DDs, there's always this pause of a nesting phase where thing you just need to digest what you're about to do and then give it up and do it. So I I always like to say, like, yeah, it's efficient, but you need to think about what you're doing.

D Like, sure, you can click a button, but think about what you're doing. Like, what is the quality of the of the parameters that you're plugging in? And in that way, like, in the future, I think the ability for designers to be as successful as they possibly can is to understand how an algorithm works and know how to exploit it in ways that you can get the result that you need to get as fast as possible or with as high of quality as, high of a quality as possible.

C Maybe we should talk about the fact that you started this company while you were still in school. So you went to UT Austin. Right?

D Yeah. Went to went to UT Austin. My thesis project was basically like a deal information modeling tool that linked SketchUp and Excel, and I made the cardinal sin of having the financial model drive the form of the building. Never making that mistake again. We didn't start test fit while I was in college. I'm saying, we started, you know, when I was working. You know? I had I went and talked to my boss. Okay.

D Can I work on this nights and the weekend? He's like, yeah. I guess. It's not gonna turn into anything. And, like, of course, like, 5 years later, you're like, yeah. It turned into something.

C What was the, problem that you identified when you started developing this idea? And tell us a little bit more about the solution process and basically taking what you learned and running with it.

D Where we started was with Texas Donuts. That is about 8% of housing in the US. It's a structured parking garage typically above grade with units wrapped just all the way around it on all sides. And when I was working professionally, I would draw site plans or have my architect draw site plans. And I either I was counting every single parking stall, to check the math for me, or I was checking somebody else's math. And one day I walked into my boss's office, and he was checking the math that I just checked. So I was like, alright. This is a huge waste of everybody's time confirming, like, how big how much stuff is in a site plan.

D That was maybe a a nudge for me to to think, okay. What if we don't have to worry about counting parking stalls again? So, like, first, the first problem was the UNIX. Right? The second problem is parking. And And so you just sort of identify, you know, a problem, and then you solve it and go to

B the next one and the next one and the

D next one and until Evelyn and Janet invite me to the podcast to talk about the problems we're solving. Yep. So problem, we're doing lots of site plans. We gotta do 8 teams to get to one that we like to see if the deal will work. We're running financial models, part construction models, you You know, trying to solve a deal, in real estate development. And the site plans are important. We knew we had to make a lot of them. And so I was I was talking to Ryan, my cofounder about this in maybe 2015 or 2016, and it's kinda walking him through, like, how I draw a wrap.

D You know? Okay. So set the property line, set the setbacks. I go in, you know, a foot off of the setbacks because I wanna make sure I have enough space in the future for the poor sap in the future is that needs to fit. You know? I'm giving you 12 inches of tolerance. And then I go, you know, okay. 65 foot building mass width, put a corridor on the middle of it. Just offset offset, trim trim trim. And I kinda walked through the whole process.

D At the end of it, it's 15,000 commands to draw 1, you know, multi panel building. Mhmm. And I sort of walked Ryan through it and said, okay. Let's do it again. Then we just changed the site. We drew it manually together. And, like, literally walked through, like, what are the steps that a designer would go through in order to draw a wrap building. And the shape of the land always changed.

D You know? So we were trying to build, or we still do try to build really powerful algorithms that, can operate on any any kind of geometry. It doesn't need to be a rectangle. It can be triangle or polygon or irregular polygon. From the very get go, we're trying to make it really flexible and scalable, because we knew that there would be other building types, down the road. Now if you're a start up person and you're considering starting a business, I would not start on a building typology that is 8% penetration in multifamily, which is 12% of the market. Well, pre COVID is 12% of the market. Now it's, like, 40% of the market. So, yeah, multifamily is absurd.

A So, obviously, you were doing this you were moonlighting a little bit in the creation of it. So when did you decide this is this is gonna be an actual thing. I'm gonna commit a 100% to it and turn it into a business. And what are your kind of biggest lessons learned in that transition?

D That's a great question. Like, we we never set out, you know, I know, like, Mark Zuckerberg or something to go build some giant thing. Right? We're like, Ryan and I are are pretty down to earth, like, pretty observant about what's going on around us. And, you know, like, the goals for us in the early days were, like, to just build a product and see if somebody would sell it. Like, the for us, the there's somebody who buy it. I I hadn't saw it. Oh my word. I hadn't saw it.

D Still have to sell it. The impetus really for me to leave my job was that I I just was so passionate and excited about building this business. And, you know, the real thing that put me over the hump was when my wife said, I am committed

B to doing this with you.

D So, you know, if if you're gonna do something meaningful, do it with those that you value the most and with their with their permission.

A So I wanna circle back at a story that we were going to get you to start talking about at the top of the hour. But tomorrow, you're actually headed to Portugal, right, for for a wedding. Yep. For an employee who you DM ed out of the blue. So tell us that story.

D Alright. So, 20 so 2017 was pretty rough. We we we launched in October of 2017. I would drive to Houston and, like, prospect for a whole week, and then I drive to Austin and do the same thing. Drive San Antonio and do the same thing. Basically, within driving distance to Dallas because we couldn't afford to fly anywhere. We made a little bit of money, and then we could afford to fly somewhere. So I flew to Atlanta, and we made a little bit more money from Atlanta.

D Then I flew to Boston, made a little more from Boston. And Ryan's sort of like, hey. Like, you're having a lot of, you know, fun, like, the meeting with people, and I'm, like, sitting here inside a cave programming the entire day. You know? Like, can we get some more people? So it's, like, a business. We had always considered the fact that we needed someone. I mean, when you're 2 people, you really need at least 1 more person. And when you're 3 people, you need more people. It's just like it's a snowballing effect.

D And I was like, well, what kind of person would you wanna hire? And Ryan said, I don't know. I've never hired someone before. And then I was like, yep. Me neither. You know, this is true how we communicate seasonally. And, like, 3 weeks later, he's like, dude, I saw some programming on Reddit, like, our programming in the subreddit for programmers. There's, like, a snippet that I really liked, and it's in you know, like, it it could be something that we use or, like, it could be, you know, an engineer that that we could hire. But Ryan was like, yeah.

D I doubt this person that wrote this code would wanna work for a start up and, you know, What what are we to this person? Because you don't know. Right? Like, it was, like, really weird DM ing this guy to be like, hey. We're interested in, like, the code that you wrote. We think you'd be a good, you know, addition to our team. Well, we didn't say that because we wanted to, you know, interview him. Turns out he was in his last semester last month of his master's degree, was looking for a job, was a perfect fit for our code base. And the only catch was he lived in Portugal, but he spoke English and had Internet. So we're like, wait.

D We could be and this is this is pre COVID. So, like, you know, my family was like, you're not gonna have people in an office like a normal business. I'm like, no. Like, I'm not even in the office at all now. Like, I travel all the time. That was, how we met Joao. He was our first employee, and, he's getting married, this weekend. And Ryan and I are flying out, to Portugal tomorrow morning.

D And I guess when you're listening to this podcast, it was I don't know. We're flying out late August. So

C Yeah. Evelyn is really advocating for me to adopt Twitter, and I've been resistant. I used it a long time ago, but I've been pulling my social media back over the past couple of years slowly.

D Yeah. It's it can be a real real time waste. Social media can. But, when when you come into, like, a startup world or you're building a business like you are, especially if you're young, you don't have a network, you don't know anybody. And, you know, the first 100 TestFit customers, I had to go, like, knock down their door and beg them to to to look at what we had and then to beg them to adopt it Mhmm. And then to beg them to pay me. You know? Social media gives young people, I think, a huge huge amount of leverage, with their network.

A Let's take a break from this conversation to talk about our sponsor of this episode, Monograph. We're proud to partner with Monograph because they are helping to form the practice of architecture, one design studio at a time.

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C ZHA designer Marco Margherta says that the benefit of using Twinmotion for the designers are the simplicity of the interface, the playfulness with which you can articulate your scenes, and not having to worry about all the technical aspects that real time usually brings, like light maps, PBR workflows, and other technical details.

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C To download your exclusive free trial, head to twinmotion.link/disrupted. That's twinmotion.link/disrupted. I wanna come back to this idea about you knocking down the doors of all of your 101st customers. Can you talk about some of the lessons that you've learned from going out and putting yourself out there and selling to developers and architects and brokers?

D They want different things. They all, think that their role in the process is, you know, very important. So you have to go in with every meeting. You know, go into meetings with respect, honestly. Sometimes I see competitors in mind that really only sell to real estate developers, completely not respect the profession of architecture at all. And I think they're doing a great disservice to generative design and and to the future of of the ecosystem we're trying to build. In early October 2017 is kinda when we released. I sat in a Starbucks, and I just guessed 3,000 email addresses of people that, you know, you look up architects in Milwaukee.

D You know? And, there's, Epsilon UN or you know, there's there's some architect up there. Get on their website and you you go through and you look at all the principles. You know, like, dear lord, I'm a 25 year old kid. Here's a, you know, 60 year old guy that I plan to automate some of what his function is. So I took the 1st year or so. I was really, really careful with how I phrased what I wanted from people. And in reality, I really needed their wisdom. Like, the the people that have a lot of knowledge, institutional knowledge, in AEC are typically older, and they got a lot of wisdom, and they get a lot of connections.

D Treating those prospects with a lot of respect was helpful, I think. Because, like, my cold email was like, hi, you know, Bob. I'm a entrepreneur from Texas. We're building an algorithm that draws parking stalls really fast. Would you wanna take a look at it? You know, I'd be interested in hearing your story and and attaining wisdom. Yeah. So, really, it is you could have a killer app, but if you don't have the the personality to to connect with people, you're not gonna be successful at all. And that's that's the sales game.

D I mean, sales is a is a is a part of, the architecture industry that I think maybe 10% of architects really figure it out. You know, these are the guys that bring in giant deals for firms. And there's some really good ones, that that are in my early decks now. And so asking for advice is never going to be like, the worst that can happen is someone can say no. Asking to make a sale right now, for a product they haven't seen in an industry that they deeply love, not a great recipe for success. So I yeah. Our architects and developers are are the typical customers. Visa brokers, It's a new kind of market for us, but general contractors are seeing a bit more, traction there.

D And they're starting to do more pre con services, specifically when when architects are so overloaded like they are right now, that they can't even get site plans out the door Or or they could just not post it.

A I a little bit of a different spin on that question is I, actually, I I think our audience will be pleasantly surprised about your acknowledgment towards the older generation of architects and those leadership and how you how you sought after them for for wisdom. Our usual angle on practice disrupted is is to talk about, like like, what aren't architects naturally getting? So is there is there something in the conversation where, like, developers pick it up, like, super quick and you just, like, wish that architects understood this side of the business a little better so you didn't have to consistently explain the same thing over and over.

D Yeah. I I think it comes down to, like, do you understand your customer? And when I was in development, I don't think any of our architects really understood what we needed. They would over design, like, 10 x over design. We're in deal deal territory. We don't even have SDs. We don't have to land under under lock, and I'm getting an SD set. So they're wasting tremendous amounts of resources and time and effort creating documentation that that might not be needed. It will be needed later, but what like, why work why do future work, you know, today, You could do

B it later when you should should be doing it later.

D Real estate development is a math problem. And if your building doesn't fit in that math problem, like, no matter how beautiful it is or or how well crafted it is, it's never gonna work out. I mean, it it just won't. You've got 5 analyses that need to happen every time you look at a new new piece of land. And the financial analysis is huge. It's what your developer is typically doing. Construction analysis. You know, what does it cost? What are we gonna make it out of? The site plan analysis, which is the what test fit's typically known for.

D The zoning, conformance analysis, which I don't know how we're gonna do that one. It's, like, 3,000 different counties in this country with, like, 9,000 municipalities and, you know, like, no government has budget to do Diddly. It's amazing. And then the last analysis is actually the land itself. Like, who owns the land? What are the meets and bounds? What's its topography? How does the building sit on this piece of land? And so you have to do all 5 of these things to to understand whether or not a project will will pencil even, which is to say, we are spending a tremendous amount of time on on feasibility, you know, maybe when we don't need to be. Like, why why can't TestFit take the first whack at any site plan? They'll get within 90% of what an architect's gonna do in a few seconds. But then the next iteration because the first one's already done, that's when you crash. Like, that's when you get in as the architect.

D Like, alright. We're gonna make we're gonna make a place now. So solve the deal, solve the deal metrics, make the financing hard concentrate work, and then craft the building and make it into architecture.

C That's actually a really good point. I I've frequently been in architects' offices where these feasibility studies are coming in, and they're quick turnaround. They're like you know, it's it's something that the developer's looking for quickly and that the architect needs to fit into their already busy project schedule. And it just makes sense to me that you're looking for an arrangement on the site more so than you're looking for a building footprint that's perfectly designed. It's more about understanding understanding the value of what the developer's asking for in terms of the exercise versus what the architect might be inherently hoping to get out of the exercise for their own emotional benefit.

A I know they only asked for this, but we're gonna give a little bit more. So when they move on to the next step, we'll see

D you like to be ready. Across the whole country is having, like, the same exact thought. Like, oh, like, we've done business with this company for 20 years. We have to do, like, a lot more work on this site plan. And in reality, like, they're they're still gonna come back. Like, if you do good work for SDs and or for CDs and BDs and and, CA, they'll come back to you. Like, for sure. On the execution.

D Architects, you're getting paid for the execution, for sure.

A Even in your hustle alone, I think in cold e like, cold emailing, reaching it, like driving out, those are not usual characteristics of firm leaders and architecture practice, I would say. So where where does this entrepreneurial side view, like, come in? Where where where is that learned from?

D That's a great question. So my grandfather, Clifton Bolner, my mother's father, was a, entrepreneur, still is, still puttering around in Santonya. But he built a spice company, in Santonya. It's called Fiesta. And our blends and stuff are are everywhere across the the country, US. And I grew up in that culture. I grew up in, you know, like, you wanna go, have a have a summer? No. You're gonna go stand on the jar line and, you know, learn how a plant works.

D You wanna, you know, watch TV? No. You're gonna go learn how to do a QAQC test on you know, how do how do you irradiate stuff? Like, it's, you know, it's like things that I learned as a kid were not things that other kids learned as a kid. And then my dad, my dad's side, it's a real estate development family, like, through and through. Developers are a different breed altogether. I mean, they just they don't they don't come to conferences. They don't wanna be known. They don't, like I kinda laugh at some development websites that are really well done. You know? Because it's like, oh, the only thing that people can do is just criticize all of your, you know, projects on the website.

D Family really is a good driver, I think. I think architecture was me. I wanted to do architecture. And I got into the 2nd best architecture school at the time, UT, Cookham, as I've said, like, 9 times on the podcast. Yeah.

A As a young entrepreneur, where do you go to for your own professional development? Like, who is it from mentors? Are you reading books? Like, how do you how are you growing into this role?

D Yeah. I have about 6 personal mentors, that I I can communicate with at least once a month. I, like, I can't stress enough how important it is to have people in your life around you that can, like you know, as iron sharpens iron, one person sharpens another. Like, it it really is important. And these are people that are outside the company. So I'm not talking to an employee. I'm not talking to an investor. I'm not talking to something like that, but I'm getting professional advice.

D And then in some cases, I some of these people are are so close that I get personal advice from too as in addition to to professional advice. So I've been very fortunate. Like, from the time I was my first internship, I think I was 16 or something in architecture. You know, I went and talked I asked the firm principal, like, the second first day I was there, I walked up to his desk and I said, sir, can I, take you to lunch, as soon as I earn my first paycheck? The guy looked at me. He was like, what? What is this guy?

C Oh, actually, I have a simpler story. I went over to the desk of 1 of the guys who is very technically minded, not a human interaction kind of person and, like, sat down at his desk and was like, hi. I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm Janine. And he just looked at me like I had 2 heads. And it was like the most just uncomfortable moment ever. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I work at your firm.

C Like, you should, like, care.

D But Yeah. I mean, like, I see our my favorite generation. Especially when it comes to office work, It like, they're very different mentality in terms of, like, what a worker is and what a worker does and and, like, you're in a box and you stay in your box and you get out of your box, like, they're gonna have some issues. You know? Like, the test fit company culture is the exact ops. It's like very loose structure. We're all headed towards a very specific goal, but, you know, everybody's free to go on a journey to get to that goal. It's when I think in architecture, specifically, you're so, tied to your time sheet and, like, billing hours and and, staying efficient that, like, you kind of don't get the the sort of gestation and nesting and and the kind of stuff that we get, in the software world where, like, you you have deadlines, but they're not like if we don't hit this deadline, we lose our, you know, temporary certificate of occupancy and, you know, and then there's liquidated damages and, you know, then we're good too. You know? That didn't happen for us.

D Hopefully, it never will. But we get to be a bit more creative. Like, the mythical man month is totally true. Like, the algorithms that we build are highly creative. I can't just throw, like, some guy I've never met, some per like, I could hire a programmer to make a website tomorrow. I couldn't hire a programmer just to build, you know, build a parking generator. They do look terrible. They do sit down, talk through it.

D It's very creative. And in a way, like, when I when I when I go around to my engineers or when our customer success people go to the engineers with, customer feedback, it's a bit like a like an architecture studio, it feels like. Like, because, hey. Like, there's this feature that the the low density configurator doesn't have that the high density one does have. And, you know, so you're, like, talking to engineer. You're kinda, like, leaning over on their desk. Well, we're on Slack, Evan. So we're we're not really, you know, leaning on people's desks.

D But, you know, we get into a Google Meet. We talk at length about, like, light industrial. We we just, announced the light industrial data. It's literally a giant box of a building. We build almost as much light industrial in this country as we do, multi panel buildings. It's not sexy, but geez, imagine drawing thousands of parking stalls for light industrial building.

A I I consider myself a bit of a pessimist. I'm trying to be a more of an optimist when it comes to the future of the profession. I'm interested to hear your take on on whether you deem yourself a pessimist or an optimist and and where

D It's an interesting question. I think before so I'm in a very unique position. I'm one of the few people that has leverage, over technology in in this industry. And, like, it I didn't realize it until recently. Right? Like, I didn't realize that test fit was as big as it was. And that, like, I I just remember, like, we closed this huge deal and made a lot of money. Great. You know? But it's it's the adoption.

D Right? Like, it's the adoption that that really gets me excited and looked at the adoption for one of our new, you know, new customers. And I'm like, okay. They paid us this, and then we're seeing this amount of effort and this amount of activity. And I don't know. Like, you when you're an entrepreneur, you're you're running through a dark tunnel with a train behind you, then you're just desperate to see that light at the end of the tunnel. So I see the light. We're gonna make it. Right? But there could be so much more innovation that goes into this industry and into this company, than there is now.

D Like, TestFit is only, you know, for the 1st several years, is only what I could conceive of in my mind. Right? But now we have 12 employees. We have hundreds of firms. The future of the tool is is driven not by me anymore. And that that makes me, I think, an optimist at one, that it it it it wasn't me that got it here. Right? It was, like, everybody else that disagreed that, yeah, this is alright. This is a good way to go. Alright.

D Sorry for the emotion. No.

A I appreciate that candor.

C No. It's welcome. I mean, I think it's amazing. I was gonna say, I guess, as somebody who's not inside your organization looking from the outside in, The reason that we get excited to bring someone like you on the show is because you become a case study for what's possible for the rest of us. And just the tenacity to go out and launch this business, first of all, that's huge. But the fact that you came up with something that does challenge the market and does challenge the status quo on how people think about design and demonstrates a new way of thinking, it's hope it gives me a lot of hope as someone who's also trying to do that from my own business perspective. And I know that there in in all of these conversations that we've had on the podcast, there are so many people out there wanting that that we need people like you who are saying this is possible. Yes.

C It might be only one small part of the industry that I made change, but that gives hope to so many people. It makes such a huge impact.

D Yeah. If if I can get 10% of people to stop drawing parking stalls manually, I think I've done done my job. You know?

A Next, you can move on to toilet details and stair stairwells.

C Oh my gosh. Bathroom details.

D Y'all see that, like, a a a Revit pure post about how many parameters are associated with, handrails or something. It's like Oh. 63 parameters in

C the handrails.

D I'm like, wow. There's no way that, like, a deck of cards I think if you reshuffle a deck of cards, 52 of them, there is more wait, there's more fewer atoms in the universe than there are combinations of 52 cards in a row. Right? Like, the the the thing that shocks me is, like, you're just when you're at 63 parameters, you're just inviting complexity to just crush your entire model.

C Well, that that post got me thinking because I saw people reacting differently to it, and it just kind of aligned with this idea that there's, like, different ways that people are thinking about this problem. Like, for some people, they're in the camp where they're like, Yeah, that's 62 reasons that I get to tweak the model and I'm going to obsess about it. And then there's I saw one person who I won't say, but they were like, this is the reason that I'm getting out of this field. You're, like, over designing something. And so, like, there's this, like, spectrum of people that are, like, all in on this kinda level of detail and some people that, like, just can't handle it or they're not interested in it.

D Well, the the reality is that some things shouldn't be parametric. I say, like, I say stuff like this on Twitter. Like, I say, like, like, I I had one that didn't like, people didn't like at all. So when I whenever I have Finnair and Mueller, I know I'm going against the grain, but it was like, the only way we're getting the model based delivery is if we can generate, you know, every single drawing at will instantaneously. Right? Like, but my point, like, my point is that you want model based delivery. Your model's gotta be so good that you could generate a drawing from it at any moment in time. That I think is, like, possible, but the thing is, like, when you okay. When you go to architecture school, they tell you windows are are not windows anymore.

D They're apertures. And doors are not doors. They're portals. Like, I thought the first time they said I was like, oh, this is dumb. Like, what like, I missed the point of the exercise. Right? The the point of the exercise is you've been using the built environment the same way your entire life. You have these specific defaults that you default to as a user of the built environment. As a as a human, you have these defaults around you that you just think things are the way they are because that's the way that they are.

D And you take it for granted because it's frankly easier to to not have to process everything around you at all times. So that is to say, like, this industry right now is stuck in, like, a CAD bucket or a BIM bucket or, like, you know, the people that are really passionate about BIM are gonna be really up in arms if you, say you wanna disrupt something with BIM and the people that are the people passionate about CAD. The people that haven't adopted BIM yet, are sort of like, well, we don't think Revit's ever gonna be a thing for us, so we're just waiting for the next thing that comes out. And, like, the majority of housing units in the US are not designed in Revit. They're designed in, like, CAD. Some some of them are in the US are designed in, one of the biggest architects doesn't use AutoCAD. They use, I think MicroStation or something. So, like, there's there are lots of ways of solving problems when you don't think like, when you think it sounds stupid.

D Think outside the box, honestly. Like but the the thing is, like, you have to, like, actually physically get out of the box in order to think outside the box. So, like, if you're gonna work in an architecture firm, you're not gonna think the way a technologist will think unless you're no longer at that architecture firm. You'll think like an architect doing technology, but I don't think, like, I I think you need a separation in order for your priorities or for the priorities of the business to shift. Like, I love it when I see Gensler made blocks, which is this I think it's a Grasshopper plugin or something. I don't know. It's a big planning tool. And I'm like, this is great.

D Look at this. They have the ability to build this. This is amazing. They're never gonna sell it to anybody else. It's gonna be locked up in Gensler forever. And, you know, what are you gonna do? It's like it's it's really hard, for architecture firms to create IP, and invest in it. Because it locks their people into certain companies. If they learn how to use that technology and it's only there, I mean, I'd be worried.

A I really enjoyed the conversation. The your answer to the optimist versus pessimist was interesting because I think, like, if I were just to take that last piece out of out of it, I would have been like, oh, Clifton's more of a pessimist. So to hear that, like, optimistic side

D I I think every every disruptor is a pessimist. I think you have to be. Like, you have to be a pessimist about the things that can really go bad. But you have to be an optimist about the things that can go right. And a lot of people are not comfortable living in the volatility, which is why you need a cofounder. Honestly, cofounders help you get through the volatility of not knowing what the future looks like at all. And you're in it together. I mean, frankly, it's like a marriage.

D Like, I feel like I'm married to my cofounder the same way. Married to my wife because, like, we are committed. We well, there's lots of very clear differences. But my point is that, like, I'm not leaving it, like there's not gonna be a test fit without Ryan Green to me. Right? Like, that that doesn't seem like a future that I wanna be a part of. Because, like, you do the things that you wanna do with people you wanna do it with, and it's a journey, it's an adventure, And that's, you know, that's I mean, every architecture firm that starts up with with, with 2 partners or something. Like, you have to have that. I mean, I've seen lots of solo architects try.

D They're less successful.

A I think that's a great jumping off point to our last question. What other what other tips, tricks, suggestions, advice do you have for young architects, you know, 4th, 5th years, or just wrapping up their m arc as they're embarking into the profession and thinking about going out on their own or being more entrepreneurial?

D Yeah. I would I would say get absolutely lethal, doing 2 or 3 critical things. Like, architecture is a very, cyclical industry. So if you can make yourself an incredibly valuable employee, by I don't know. You're the guy that that knows how to run Dynamo, That you're the guy that knows how to code. I think what I'm saying is the future skills that will keep you employed are are learning more about software than they are, you know, line weights or the the rhythm of the facade. I mean, like, the the the like, you can worry about that once you have the software, you know, piece understood. And the gateway driver that's Grasshopper, Dynamo, Python.

D I mean, there's a lot you can do there. But my advice would be be absolutely lethal at something. So that way, when they're going through all the list of people you gotta lay off, you're not even on the list.

A So there's this continuous thread that I see emerging throughout Practice Disrupted on a lot of different episodes, but I wanna believe it's because it's actually a really important piece that somehow we never spend enough time on, and that's this idea of process. And when I think about why, and I'm using kind of a royal we here, like all of our like all architects tend to do this, but I I realize there are some architects that are much more forward thinking in this area. I have to believe it comes back to, like, design with a big d and the necessity for us to always create everything from scratch and not necessarily share, even internally. So I worked at a firm where depending on who your project manager was, each project manager was literally, like, keeping their own library, and we couldn't share library details with 1 within one another, within a firm, and I think that might be an extreme example. But, you know, at the same time, I don't know I worked at another firm who had the worst time updating their library. So I had, like, you know, 25 different variations on a tile detail that we were using for a variety of different schools across the same school district. So let's talk about the need for process and building in business efficiencies.

C That's a good question, Evelyn, and I'm trying to decide sometimes, I think and it varies based on the firm. Like, is it a need to start from scratch and design everything uniquely? Or sometimes I wonder if it's just that there's so much emphasis on the project that they neglect to think about the processes behind the business. But one company that I think is thinking about process is KieranTimberlake, and we heard that in the interview that we did with them back in season 1 is that they have literally a process for everything. Everything is mapped, so it doesn't matter where you are in the firm that there if there's a task that the firm identifies as a process, there's a process procedure

A outlined for each part of the firm, which is kind of impressive because most firms don't have that. Yeah. And I you know, it makes onboarding, right, People so much easier and getting people up to speed when you're not having to search in a zillion different places to find how to do something because that is all in one place too. So it's, you know, it's interesting how these small seemingly small things really scale really easily. And actually, it doesn't take long to kinda see where you can gain back some of that precious time, some of those precious billable hours.

C I often see people who are working on different project teams. Like, say, they have the like you said, working for different project managers, sometimes they did this versus sometimes they did that, and they would hoard different, detail libraries. But I think also, like, when you jump from manager to manager and you're dealing with different personalities, what I've frequently heard is people struggle with different managers who have different ways they like to manage projects, and it can vary widely based on personality and leadership style and preference. But when you have a process or at least a loose framework for a process, it makes that transition when you go from your commercial team's project over to your, I don't know, health care studios project. If there's some basis for process, then it makes that transition just a little bit easier on the person that has to kinda be bench player on those teams.

A Absolutely. So, I mean, for me, a big takeaway, and I I hope a big takeaway, at least for our listeners, is kind of identifying those areas where you can begin to build in these processes. And it could be as as simple, right, as comb like, as creating that library or finding a way to continuously update that library, which I know some firms struggle with. But I I think it it's just one of those things that it makes it so much easier for everyone in in the long run. And I gotta think that there's some technology somewhere where if you have a library and you find out there's been a code change and you need to update a detail in the library, there's gotta be some technology that allows you to update the library and have it carry through on all active projects. And maybe if that library and maybe if that technology doesn't exist, maybe somebody can go out and build it now.

C Yeah. Actually, I do have a friend who's working on a startup for AEC that looks into Revit libraries and how to transfer them. We can you know, he's at the beginning process of his company, so maybe we'll bring him on a later point to talk about it. But he's definitely exploring the technology requirements on how to do that across projects and across Revit models.

A That's awesome. We'll definitely consider him for a future episode. The other thing that I wanted to touch a little bit on is just sales because I feel like Clifton did the equivalent of door to door going door to door, like, being the door to door vacuum salesman. Like, like, literally just, like, cold calling firms and flying to their destination and and, like, showing up and trying to get a a meeting. You know, you started your practice at a very interesting time, like a month before we went into a pandemic. You'd moved to a new geographic location, but you've done well, and I've seen it grow over time. So, you know, what's worked for you when establishing your new practice during this, you know, and how have you 1, would you ever take Clifton's approach? Could you? Is you know, I'm wondering if it's a certain personality approach that has to personality that's really able to go and do that. And 2, do you have any kind of takeaways in terms of what's worked for you lately?

C Well, I think, my story is similar to Clifton's in that, I did do a lot of networking, but it all happened, before I started my business. So because of my history with the AIS and the AIA, I met all these people all across the country, and so my version of what he did happened through volunteer work mostly, but I certainly made a ton of connections the 10 years prior to starting my company, which helped me when I hit, you know, the uncertain parts of the pandemic. Like, trying to navigate how to be a new business owner in the pandemic was just emotionally draining. There were so many unknown variables. Like, you know, you already have a new business that you're trying to put framework in place, and then to have this additional complication that basically upends everything you know about the way that the world works and how people are responding just made it so complicated. So, I I think we, at one point, Evelyn, had a conversation about me needing to just have really honest conversations with other people and get back into my network. And, you know, so at first, when I had started my business, I was really focusing on people that I I trusted, and I felt like I could be very candid with and just say, hey. This is really hard, and I'm struggling, and I'm trying to figure it out.

C And then as I progressed into the pandemic and as I started having more and more conversations through the podcast, like, I got more comfortable reaching out to other people in my network and just allowing for that level of transparency that you're talking about in the first part of what this conversation was. Just being really honest about the fact that that I'm a new entrepreneur in some ways, and I I need help and I need, you know, to collaborate with people in order to make my business successful. And so a willingness, I think, to have those conversations second half going into the second half of the year for this year.

A I remember that conversation, and it's it's interesting how it's kind of, like, comes full circle or, you know, we we talk about the importance of leaders to be able to really communicate at all levels. And it's just interesting to see that how that's even translated into business development for you.

C Yeah. And I think also, like, my husband and I had a talk at one point too because I think with the pandemic, there was a part of me that was actually holding back because I'm like, okay. I'm trying to manage risk, and I want to take on work. But I'm such a new business. I'm not sure, like, to the extent of work that I can take on. So there was a part of me that was limiting things at the beginning in in an effort to really make sure as a sole proprietor who was new to this that I was able to get my feet under me in a very uncertain time. And, basically, earlier this year, he was like, you've gotta just start saying yes to all these opportunities. Like, you know, say yes, take a risk, put yourself out there, and, like, see what happens.

C And I put that into motion, and the results have been really good. I mean, I I have a lot of work for the second half of the year, and, actually, going into the 2022, I feel confident that I'm well positioned to not run off the cliff. But coming back to our speaker for today, you know, it was funny to me. Clifton is such a unique personality, and I really I laughed so hard during this interview. He made me giggle a few times, but he I think he has just this, like, personality that's open to risk and open to taking on, an exploratory conversation with people just in pursuit of trying to figure out this bigger idea that he has behind his company. And so, you know, I think as people think about how they're trying to grow their businesses, you have to take risks in order to get a return. And so, like, this idea of the door to door salesman are going out and having these conversations, Like, that could be a real big turnoff for some people. They might say, yeah.

C I'm not willing to do that. I'm not willing to I don't wanna do that. I don't. But, you know, that's what it takes. Like, to run your business, like, really, truly, it takes having conversations, putting yourself out there, getting uncomfortable, and and just showing up and seeing, like, how can you add value or grow your company?

A I think that's a great place to end the conversation. Thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

C Thank you to Twinmotion for their support of this podcast episode. Visit twinmotion.link/disrupted and try Twinmotion for free.

A Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. You can find all of our past episodes by visiting practice of architecture.com backslash podcast.

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