TRXL Crossover: Calling on Architects to Embrace Change

A This episode of practice disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operations solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. To celebrate our 50th episode, we have 2 special things planned to share with you today. The first is that today's episode is a special crossover show with our friend and fellow podcaster from the Gable Media Network, Evan Troxell. Evan has a long legacy of podcasting, and we're excited to share this conversation with you. But before we get started, we have a second special update to share.

A So, Janine, you and I have talked about our AIA involvement on and off throughout all of our seasons now. And, you know, looking back on it, I have nearly 20 years of service in the AIA, and this happens to be my last year as national treasurer. And there's been a few people that have been inquiring, and asking me what's next, usually right after, I've been asking them what's next. And I'm excited to finally announce my decision to run for 1st vice president, president-elect of AIA National next year in 20 22.

B I am so excited to hear that, Evelyn. And I know you've been working towards this for quite some time. So for our listeners who don't know, this is a pretty big deal announcement today. And I I wanna ask you to tell our listeners why this is important to you.

A So there's a lot of change happening at the AIA right now, and I won't go into all of it. But for instance, Robert Ivey, FAIA, is retiring after nearly a decade as our EVP CEO. There's really important work being done right now with a member's voice task force that I'm on, looking at how we make sure we are not only giving our members a way to communicate with leadership, but how do we also make sure that we have systems in place to prioritize initiatives based on what our members need? We have a capital improvement project looking at the renovation of the headquarters happening at this time when everybody is trying to figure out what the future of work looks like to them, and we're trying to figure out what the future of the association looks like to us and, and in turn, how the over 200 full time employees at AIA National needs to work within that headquarters. And then, you know, just on top of that, I think we're trying to we're really focused on finding ways to function better as a global organization serving over 90,000 members and using more of the technology tools that has even come out of the pandemic to connect our members in a more thoughtful way, allow them to knowledge share and get more information out and and generally raise the value of the profession. So, anyways, these are all areas that I'm currently engaged in and believe that I bring a unique perspective to given my history of service at National, but also somewhat of an outsider of the profession as an architect on an untraditional path.

B Obviously, I'm standing with you on this run. After being involved with the AIA for over a decade, I've seen firsthand your commitment and your tireless dedication to this industry. You are an advocate for architects, and not everyone gets to see the work that you do up close like I do. But I can tell you and I can tell our listeners that from your time early on with the National Associates Committee to the Young Architects Forum to serving on the national board to going up through different leadership positions within California on the AIA California Council. You have been at the table fighting for change and helping architects move the industry forward. And you've gone on to the national board and you've served as treasurer working to ensure that the membership is served at a really difficult time in our industry's history. So I maybe a good place to go next with this conversation is to talk about all of the change that we've experienced during the pandemic. And so appropriate to the show, all of the conversations we've had on the podcast, I guess I'm wondering, why do you think now is the right moment, and why do you think you're best positioned to lead the industry forward?

A My entire career, I think I've been focused on transformation of the profession. So even as an associate member, we were running a campaign to be able to take the ARUs concurrently while doing what was then called IDP, it's now AXP, and really urging National to adopt a position statement to encourage both of those things to happen simultaneously. And as a young architect, I introduced the Practice Innovation Lab, which was, you know, we've had 2 guests from JM on there, the People's Choice Award winners, really looking at what are alternative business models and practice in order for architects to remain relevant. And now post pandemic, there's so many of us trying to figure out how are we going to work and what does work look like coming out of this? And, you know, I think we can all agree to say that we will not know what a new norm is, what our new even work schedule is, you know, a year or 2 from now. So even though I find myself in tech and away from traditional practice, I feel as though I have I'm this unique bridge between where the profession has been while also helping to identify opportunities to continue to grow the value of architects and practice into the future. I practice traditionally. I served on the national board as associate member when it was a big board with regional representatives. I've now transitioned to tech, and I've served on the board, the smaller board, as well as strategic council.

A And even though I find myself in tech away from traditional practice, I feel as though I'm a good bridge between where the profession has been, having served as an associate representative on the national board when it was a large board, but also having a foot in traditional practice, Well, now I'm identifying opportunities to grow the value of architects and practice into the future being on the technology side. So I'm gonna with that, I'm gonna attempt to make a segue to talk to our host for this episode, Evan Troxell, who tends to operate within that future forward space on the technology side.

B That's right. Yeah. Segwaying into today's episode, our crossover episode with Evan Troxell. Evan's an industry leading design and technology expert. He runs 2 podcasts, Troxell and ArchiSpeak. Both are popular podcasts with architects and leaders of change. And to jump to his bio, an industry leading design and technology expert, Evan is a licensed architect in California and tech's architectural community director. With over 25 years of architectural design and project experience, he strives to better the architectural community in meaningful ways.

B Evan is the author of Aerie Hacks and also cohosts a widely recognized architecture and design podcast called ArchaSpeak. In 2020, he launched a new podcast, Troxell, where he is joined by guests from the Architec y community to talk about how technology is changing the profession of architecture. With not pushing the profession forward, he's likely out in the mountains recharging his batteries. An avid mountain biker, rock climber, photography enthusiast, and general adventurer, he's always searching for the next outdoor experience.

A Let's cut to the conversation.

B Hi, Evan. Welcome. This is an exciting, kind of unique experience for us to just do a crossover episode with someone else in our Gable Media Network.

C Yeah.

B So we've been, I guess, tweeting with you online.

C Yep. Egging me on, I think, is what Evelyn's been doing. Yeah.

B But, we've had quite a few of, similar guests, and I think there's a lot that we share in common between our two shows. So we thought that it would be a good idea to do a crossover episode to actually get together and talk about some of these

C things. Absolutely. Yeah. And the the premise of Troxell podcast is looking at how technology, like you said, is a lens through which the profession is changing, like it or not, good or not. So it is. And so, therefore, it's a it's kind of an awareness campaign in on many respects because it's not necessarily about specific startups or their founders even or their product. It's about what's going on and why it's happening. It really is the kind of conversations that I wanna be having because this is the kind of thing that, like I just said, like it or hate it, it's happening.

C So be aware of it, and let's take these stories of people who are really interested. And, you know, I make the point of view that I have is that I'm we're working on the profession, not necessarily, maybe sometimes in the profession. Right? So as we work on the profession together as, you know, what are we doing, and why are we doing it? Because there's some huge amounts of passion there. So what can I do as, like, a facilitator of these conversations to get people on the same team and get them in alignment about what's going on so that they're at least aware? They they don't have to love it. But for me, it's about awareness and getting people to root for these who really have the passion to take our profession to the next level.

B And your background, we should probably frame that you are an architect, that you have a background in working in the studio environment. So you are really coming from it with the perspective of somebody who's been in practice.

C Absolutely. And I think coming up through the ranks, you know, of of our old school profession as a designer in particular, I feel like I have a a skill set around crafting communication and and design and working with people to get to the outcomes. When you're working with clients on projects, it's like synthesizing their super random vague ideas about and the particular ways in which they work into reality. And to me, that's what I'm doing in my job as well, and that's what I'm doing on the podcast as well. It's really a design approach to these kinds of conversations and these problems and these challenges that we come up against to shape the profession as it moves forward.

B That approach is actually very similar to the I think, Evelyn, the approach we take on our show, which is to use the design framework to look at it from a business standpoint, which kinda dips into a lot of different conversations. But, definitely, to us, it's still like a marriage of design and business and the problem solving process around figuring out the answers.

C And you guys both work I mean, Janine, you work you you're you have your own company, consulting company. Right? So you're working with a lot of different groups. And Evelyn, at Slack, you're working with a lot of different, probably, groups within the company, but also externally facing. Obviously, you do a lot of speaking. You get to dip into a lot of different conversations, and there's a lot of topics that come up. And by being in those positions that I think we all are where we're kind of active on social media and just kind of keeping our fingers on the pulse and then with the conversations that you guys are having and that I'm having it really helps kinda shape that overall framework and then connect the dots within it, and that's, I think, what you guys are doing as well.

A Yeah. I think and then my connection back to the profession, I think, is held together oddly enough by the AIA, and everything that I'm hearing from the members that I interact with there. Mhmm. I have a question for you, though. Would you consider yourself kind of an optimist or a pessimist when it comes to the future of where we're headed?

C It's a double edged sword.

A I tend to be the pessimist, but I I want to be an optimist.

C Yeah. I tend to be an optimist, and I try to root myself in some good old pessimism because it's so there's it's interesting when you when I think about architecture and architects as a general population, I think of them as optimistic. Like, overall, it is about the future being better, and it's about positively impacting communities and change to the built environment and through the way people interact with space and what it can actually mean to somebody on many different levels, which is very different than most of the time we spend in most of the buildings that we're in. Those aren't our capital a architecture, which I think is better at fulfilling those kinds of changes. But at the same time, like, we are so slow to adopt change. We're so slow to try something new because, you know, we sell time for money, and we have a certain way that we do contracts. And we have a very specific piece of the pie that we deliver in the overall process, which is not that building even though, you know, like, we're never we're you you go to a ribbon cutting ceremony, and it's and it's the there used to be the saying, and I'm trying to recall it right now, but it's like it's like the ceremony of the uninvolved. Right? It's everybody's patting themselves on the back because the mayor's there and the council's there and the the board of direct and they had nothing to do with the project throughout the whole thing.

C And and guess who doesn't even get mentioned in that ceremony at the end of the hall? The architect. And that's where this pessimism comes from. And I think I think where I've kind of landed from a point of view is that, like, we've designed ourselves into this position, literally, because we're waiting around for somebody else to acknowledge or to do something. Mhmm. Acknowledge us or to do something for us. And it's like, guess what? Like, we're in charge of designing our future. And by actively nonparticipating in that event and just because we're so project focused. We're so focused on the now and not the big picture of where things are going because that's not the business model.

C The business model is this project right now. As soon as that project is done, cool. Put it in the archive folder. What's the next one? That is hard to kinda come up for a breath when you're under all that water all the time.

B That's a good point.

C So, man, am I an optimist or a pessimist? I don't know. Like

A I don't know. I was like, that kind of ended on a really pessimistic note at the end there.

C It because change is hard. I mean and I and working in a firm for you know the majority of my career literally like pushing boulders uphill to get people to adopt change has been a hard lesson it's been really difficult so my recent change this year by going into the technology space, but it's funny because

A Welcome to the dark side.

C Yeah. It's it's interesting from a because I don't look at it as, like, a tech company. I look at it as a people company, and I look at it as, like, we are working on trying to solve some fundamental problems within the architectural and the manufacturing professions and the industries and the way that they talk to each other and communicate with each other. It's super broken because the incentive is to keep it that way. The incentive is to well, I wouldn't say the incentive is to keep it that way, but there are incentives in our own silos that keep it that way. And so when I think about it as a people profession or a people company, and I think about it from a a standpoint of trying to work on the profession and make the profession better, it's a really good fit for me because now it's like, do you believe in this? Because you can opt into it. Whether whereas when I'm working at a firm and I'm saying, this is what needs to happen because this is the future that is imminent, And people are like, no. Thanks.

C I have no power there. I have no I don't have as much influence there to get people to come along with something they are not incentivized to do. They're incentivized to cut corners. They're incentivized to do the project with less every single day, less hours, less resources because that's faster and faster is rewarded by higher profit margins. So, man, there's, like, this crazy tension going on inside of our profession. And so that's I I find it the optimistic side of me now is, like, okay. Opt in. Let's go on this ride together.

C And the people who are ready and willing to do that, who kind of are that early adopter mindset, will gladly do that, whereas the other ones can wait and see.

B I relate to this because the the struggle, it's like the dual personality going on. I I came into this profession optimistic and excited about the idea of becoming an architect. And then as I continued to grow in my career, I was disappointed time and time again as an emerging professional, and I think that's made me a little bit pessimistic

C Sure.

B Over time. And it's it's disappointing because you're right. These systems exist. And when I've tried to bring change forward into a practice, it's it's never met with excitement, which has always been shocking to me. Like, why would we not wanna do this better? How can we not make time to fit this in when it's gonna improve the business? So, a lot of this work that we're we're trying to invest in comes from this desire to figure out, like, well, how do we get past those barriers? How do we actually bring about change in a profession that doesn't see a need for change?

A And part of me, you know, is just I'm just kind of placing my hope on the future generations at this point, honestly. But I think any optimism that I have and any like why I still say engaged, why I run practice of architecture and practice disrupted on the side of my job at at Slack, I think is because because there there's so there's so much opportunity and value Mhmm. For us out there to capture. We just we just need to be doing more of it.

C Yeah. I agree. One thing that I don't think is too debatable is that our profession and maybe even, you know going out on a limb here but saying the older generations are really bad at capturing information on one level it's kind of what you're doing at Slack Slack I think originally started out as communication and knowledge capture but it's much more of a communication device now because that's what people can do on a daily basis like I can participate in communication Actually, participating in knowledge capture is a lot more work, and keeping it current is a lot more work because now you have to kind of mentally keep in mind or have a system in place that helps you keep track of all the stuff that you're capturing so that it isn't just a dead document so that it is a living breathing thing and when I when we place the hope in our future generations like what do they have to build on To me, that's one of the biggest things, the biggest disconnects that we have is, like, people are retiring and walking out the door with all that information. It's never been it's in their inbox a little bit which I'll never get access to as you know it's it's in a set of drawings that is in a folder, like, in the Indiana Jones warehouse at the end of the movie. Right? It's, like, where's that file? I don't know. It's somewhere in there in all those wooden boxes. And so when you think about these future generations, especially now as we're working from home and not being able to overhear things going on inside the practice of architecture in the office, in the studio, as easily as they used to be, but also just on this kind of 1 on 1 interaction level like we're having right now over Zoom, it's just not easy to pick up on all the stuff that it takes to be a good Architect. It's just not easy at all.

C And so how do we facilitate that so that we actually can have, like, a legit hope in the future generations? And and maybe maybe the answer is they don't need any of that stuff I don't know but I kind of don't think that's what it is I kind of think and that's one of the reasons I feel like these podcasts are such an important part of that and putting this information out there and sharing it, like, where we are right now, this is a snapshot in time. It's not evergreen content. It's not like we were talking about earlier. It's not like there are nuggets of gold in here. The whole thing isn't just like this giant treasure chest, but at least we're we're trying to capture that stuff so that there is something that can be built upon. And I I feel like that's a huge missing piece of the puzzle, and it's it is really hard for people to participate and contribute in that when they're just not used to do it's not a part of their day to day.

A I think that also stems back to this culture, though, of secrecy.

C In architecture in general. Yeah.

A Within the profession in general. And and one that, you know, the more we talk about it, the more we talk with our guests about how technology has this open source platform, the more I, like, I I feel like that's such a hindrance to our ability to move forward as a profession. Mhmm.

C Yeah. Totally agree. I think that that whole paying your dues mentality falls within that as well. Right. It's like, how do I get to the next level? I'll let you know. Like, that's kind of the comment that you'll hear from a old school supervisor. It's like, you're doing great. What should I do? Just keep doing what you're doing.

C It's like, really? There's no and so so it's really black box and I think that also gets into this other stuff that you're talking about which is this whole idea of like this is our secret sauce this and and therefore like because of that mentality people jump from office to office because it's a black box like okay well let's go try this black box and see if it's a better fit. Well, no. It wasn't. I'm gonna go try this one because maybe it's a better fit. And so people jump around a lot, and they don't have time to build within one firm. And at the same time like none of that stuff is actually secret and the profession as a whole doesn't move forward because we're all reinventing the same stuff at every single firm and not sharing any of that information

B right and the other thing that's really strange to me about that dynamic of the the firm owner over the younger staff, I don't know, and I I worry about being too generationalist in these conversations, but the reality is that without some of these junior leaders who are running the Revit models, it's not like the firm owners are teaching us how to use Revit. Right. We're figuring it out. We're doing the work. We're putting in the hours to build these complicated models. Yes. There's things that they're allowing us to do through being at their firm, but, you know, it's like there's a value trade off that feels really undervalued in that relationship that I find kind of weird and very specific to this moment in time Mhmm. Where we didn't have technology.

B Now we do, and this generation is the one who understands how to use it.

C Yeah. I I think the power is in that person. I mean, way more than they think.

A Yeah. No. I've definitely been encouraging individuals to, you know, remove emotion from the decision making process. We're in this the great resignation. Mhmm. There's a fight for talent right now.

C Mhmm.

A You know, and people are like, oh, but they held on to me through Right. Through the pandemic. You know, I owe them this much, or I need to finish this one last project so I can get it into my portfolio. And I was like, well, just try to treat your career as a business. Is your business gonna suffer if you stay, I guess?

C Our whole profession is built on the idea of sunk costs. Right? It's like we will continue to use those details forever because we already spent the time doing all that research and making sure every word and keynote was just right. And so, therefore, like, the cost to replace that is too big for us to even try to use a new material that is more energy efficient or better for x, y, and z. So it it extends naturally into that kind of idea about self worth and agency within within the profession.

A I've never thought about it that way. But absolutely

C I'm dealing with that specifically, like, that material aspect of it. So it's like there's 22 ways that we work. We either. It's so funny because there are polar opposites. We either just reuse the same stuff over and over and over again because we don't wanna do it again. And, therefore, yep, we've already got the spec for that. We've already got the details for that. We've already got it in the Revit families.

C We've got all these things. And so, man, that's a huge amount of time encapsulated in those things. Or, like, let's dive off the deep end and go to the google.com page and type a keyword in and see where it goes, and then somehow we end up, like, shopping for shoes. So you're you're 3 or 4 or 6 hours into some product research. Like like, those two things are polar opposites. There's no so that's why I say, like, this is my day to day. Like, I'm that's these are the mindsets that I'm dealing with within our firms. It's like there's the risk management specifier.

C It's like just keep using this stuff. We will only use this kind of CMU or whatever. And then there's these other designers who are like, man, like, I wanna do something different. I wanna do something new. Turns out I can only get this thing from Germany, and it'll never get here in time, and I can't afford it. And those are polar opposites. Right? So there's gotta be something better out there.

B So maybe we should talk a little bit about what got you so interested in technology as a framework for architecture. Where did that passion come from?

C I would love to hear you guys' take on that too. I I it's funny because, like, I I'm constantly reminding myself, like, this is a means to an end. I'm not just a technology champion. I just want us to make progress and also kind of pointing it, like, it's obvious that we're going in this direction, people. It's it's not going back to the old way of doing things. Remember the day when we used to be able to draw this, and I could just erase the lot the dimension and put in whatever number I wanted on a set of plans, for instance. Like, we're never going back to that. So I've always been kind of technically inclined.

C I was you know, I graduated college. I'm gonna age myself here in 1997. And I was, like, one of 3 people who learned how to be the very first class that introduced 3 three d modeling into the program that I was a part of. And so I love, like, the exploration of that and the the curiosity, like, dopamine that comes from that. It's like oh my god I figured this out I learned how to make websites in 1995 because I taught myself how to write code in a text editor by looking at other websites code and so you kind of start to teach yourself so it's just been a great learning experience and I love learning Technology is never ending evolution, and it's such a fast pace that it just fits the way my brain works really well. And so I see lots of challenges, and I also see lots of opportunities for solutions in the tech space, period. Whereas there's not a lot of other innovation happening. If you think about innovation, it's happening with technology.

C That could be hardware. It could be software. It's probably a combination of both. But it's to me, what the most interesting part of that is is the people who are actually making those decisions on how those products kind of come forth and what they can do and why they can do it. So for me, that it's just always been this perfect fit of the way my brain works, and it's interesting. I heard something recently about a research study on serotonin and dopamine and having to do with a lot of the way you think. So if you're and I can't remember which one's which because I can't remember what my left hand from my right hand is, but it's one or the other. It doesn't really matter.

C It makes you either be a very conservative person or more willing to try new things type of a person, which is also kind of maps politically, which I think is really interesting. And so I've always been the kind of person, like, who likes to take risks, who likes to try new things, who is interested in change for better. And then I can clearly see people in the profession who are the exact opposite of that, and those are the people that I was talking about earlier who I'm constantly, like, fighting with and pushing those boulders uphill?

A That view is just addressing to me because for me, I'm a little bit flipped on that. Like, tech tech space is so safe because you can prototype a 1000000 different ways in it.

C Quickly and cheaply. Quickly. Yeah.

A Right? So then my conservative side says, like, this is this is why I like it because I can

C That's funny.

A Kind of it's almost completely flipped in terms of where where you are. But but similarly

C draw your baseline. Right? Like Right. Exactly. If if I'm drawing mine from within the profession of architecture from where it's come from, like, that is the risky model. Right? Because it's just new and different. Right. But you're coming at it from a a different generation and a different like, you're you're saying, no. This is this is where I'm comfortable.

A Well yeah. I mean, I don't know about different generation. Like, I saw on tail end of gen x.

C Mhmm. Mhmm.

A Yeah. But I mean, I I was taught to code by my mom of all people. But then I grew up in Los Angeles, New Mexico, so that might have a little bit to do with that. But

C I would love to hear more about why why that would be different because I I just have only my experience to go off.

A Well well, just because Los I think Los like, Los Los Angeles is such a unique small town, right, because there's a laboratory there. And my mom was essentially running IT for the laboratory, like IT support for so she had, like, she had Toaster or Linux, and she knew I don't know how many different languages she knew. She ultimately felt like she couldn't learn languages as fast as those coming in to keep up with IT support. So when she when her brain could not hold anymore, I think it's literally when she's just like, I need to step away from this.

C But yeah.

B So there's kind of a bit of a paradox there with a very forward looking role model in your life, but then also living in a community that was a small community. So maybe

A Very true. Yeah.

B I I can relate to that. I had a similar paradox in my life, and I would say my technology interest is really driven by my orientation point because I am in the millennial category, though I'm on the older millennial side. My high school in the county I was in was actually one of the first in the country that issued laptops to every student. Mhmm. And I had it the whole way I went through high school. So it was like they you know, you started the semester and they give you a laptop for the year that's like a textbook. So all of our homework and assignments were done on a computer. You know? And I took drafting classes.

B It was all in CAD. So and then we would communicate, and it was all on AOL at the time. So my whole point of view on the world is based off of this experience of adopting technology right at that moment in time and then continuing continuing to use it. Mhmm. And it was only when I started getting into architecture where I could see this, like, struggle of, you know, the value of hand drafting, but then we had to go learn software to do the programs. And, ultimately, we didn't actually learn the software that we needed to do the work when we got hired. Oh, never. Yeah.

B It was just a disconnect of this industry struggling to catch up with what was happening at the moment in time.

C Yeah. I think from my perspective, kind of spanning the whole gamut of that was that I've always seen myself as kind of and maybe this is Gen X kind of in a nutshell, is a bridge between. And because we had we while we chose to go along with this technology changes, some of us did, some of us didn't. So I've always felt like the and I think we've been labeled like the bridge generation to some level as well or the fixer. So I like I know how to make stuff with my own hands. I've got a garage full of tools. I build. I do design build.

C I I just built a deck with a trellis, and I welded, and I, you know, so I do all that stuff, and I draw it on the computer and I model it and I can do all that kind of stuff as well. And so I can speak both languages. And so if I'm out on-site, I can talk to a contractor, and I know what they're talking about, and I know how they're doing it. And I know the tools that they're using to do it, and I know why they're doing it a particular way. And when I'm sitting at the computer, I know how to speak the language of that group to make that happen. And so I've always seen myself, and they've also called Gen X, like, the forgotten generation.

A Yeah. I was gonna say that's the alternate.

C The skipped over generation. Right? Because now now we're looking at the younger generations as, you know, the up and coming leadership. It's like, well, what about what about the Gen x? You guys

B are also missing a big part of your cohort because of a recession.

C Yeah. Huge. Huge. Like, I talk about the the great resignation. It was just the forced resignation at that point, though.

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B ZHA designer Marco Margherta says that the benefit of using Twinmotion for the designers are the simplicity of the interface, the playfulness with which you can articulate your scenes, and not having to worry about all the technical aspects that real time usually brings, like light maps, PBR workflows, and other technical details.

A Marco also loves Twinmotion Cloud, which lets any member of the team access a project from their web browser without a single download or installation. The project manager can access the model, review it, and immediately give you feedback anytime from anywhere, says Marco.

B To download your exclusive free trial, head to twinmotion.link/disrupted. That's twinmotion.link/disrupted. So I guess we see so many compounding challenges facing the industry, and I I know we've talked in-depth about that on both of our shows. Maybe we should talk specifically about some of the limitations of actually implementing change and what barriers we think we need to get past to push the profession forward.

C Yeah. It's a it's a good topic because there's so many things. I think that's one of the things that both of our shows do fall more on that optimistic side because the people that we're talking to are excited about where things are headed. And they aren't necessarily excited for where things are headed for you, you, the person in the firm, because everybody's kinda choosing their own adventure on that, on that side of things. But overall, it it is an optimistic point of view, at least for, you know, in their startup. I'm sure, like, they wouldn't be doing if if it wasn't. But for for what it can do to for the profession, I think is is highly optimistic. So on the other side of that, what are the limitations that people are actually dealing with? And I think, you know, we hit on one of them earlier, which is the ability to capture knowledge, not data knowledge.

C Data is, I think, is the easy part. Right? It's like, even though they're not very good at that either, like, tell me how your building performs. Can't do that. Right? That because that's not maybe something that that you're building into your models. But, I think from a a knowledge standpoint, I think that's a huge limiting factor for implementing change. It's just because people think it's a secret. People aren't interested in sharing it. It's not their project right now.

C We'll figure that out later. Kind of a mentality, Push it, push it, push it down the road, figure it out later. So that that's a big one. I'll I'll just throw that out to begin with, but maybe you guys have additional limitations.

A The knowledge sharing is definitely interesting to me. I just think it's I don't I don't know. I mean, my whole thing is just like, we can't get out of our way fast enough.

C We can't, and we can't make anybody do it either. Right. So so it's like, okay. What next, I guess? What else?

A And it also boils down to the to the business. I mean, we I think we've all alluded it to, you know, and how we're like, kind of reverse incentivized to actually make progress. The the biggest problem that I face with that is is sometimes the business the the the quicker, less riskier business models to adopt means stepping away from design and architecture as the big d and as the big a and, like, offering additional services. And I and and that's also, like, a hard hard struggle. But, like Mhmm. I feel like there's a necessity to do that, to give us the space to reassess, like the true core business model. And how do we rebuild that?

C That's a huge I think I agree. It's a huge limitation for a lot of people is getting out of their identity as an architect with a capital a or a designer with a capital d or a project architect or a technical architect or any one of those things. It's like, this is what I was trained to do. I'm really good at it right here, right now. And to dilute that focus and place it upon other things that are more of a question mark in my mind as that person, man, what a hard sell. It's like, I can continue to do what I'm really good at and what people tell me my value is versus my curiosity to go potentially chase something that could never happen.

A I have to respond, is it truly valuable? Because we always complain about not getting paid for our value. Right? So Yeah.

B I try to I have been really focused in on this people piece because for me, that's where the answer is. You know, I think we can put the systems in place and teach people the technology, but it can really I think it's the mindset. And and I've done a lot of stuff with AA on leadership development, and then now I'm getting into this mentorship piece. But I'm trying really at the individual level to work with people. And I like working with people who are interested in change, but even those who aren't, just to see the potential, to get them past the barriers that they think there's these assumptions that the world has to be this way, I have to do it this way, And to be like, do you? Do you really have to?

C Right.

B I mean, most of the time, what I found with my friends and my husband talks about this often is, like, when you're on a deadline with a client and it just feels like everything's on fire and you're trying to get this project done, and then you're going to the job site and you've got an issue you've gotta resolve, that there's no time. And so, like, time, I think, is, like, a really great conversation to just talk about and helping people step back from their their feelings of the idea that they don't ever have time to do all of this stuff. Mhmm. You know, if we create more time, if we create systems that allow for more time and efficiency, then you prioritize differently. And I and I think there's so many parts of this conversation that I get excited about, but it's always about, like, unlocking that one thing that someone thinks is true and challenging it.

C Seems like right now is a great time to have that larger chunk of found time on their hands. And we've all read the studies about how productivity went way up because they're not doing these other things, and they've filled those gaps with

A With some work?

C Let's just call it work. Whatever it is. Right? But, you know, even even with the invention of mobile and how tiny it's gotten and, like, AirPods. When you're doing the dishes, now you can be multitasking. Right? Because doing the dishes is kinda like driving in a car, and it's kind of like you're on autopilot. So you can be learning through osmosis at that time or or when you're walking the dog or, you know, things like that where it's like this found time has made you more productive. So you can inject maybe those times, maybe not with work, but maybe with learning that then directly applies to work. And so I think that it's like, if you can't point at this recent last year as an example of what you're talking about, Janine, then then there's no getting through.

C But I think for a lot of people, it should be easy for them to cross the bridge into that conversation to say, no. Look. Really? Here was a great example. And if we can automate or use technology or whatever those things are to take care of the the dumb stuff, like, wouldn't you like more time to solve the meaty problems that actually will have meaningful outcomes to these various groups? Especially ourselves, like, we and we're always last. Like, we're we don't we're not gonna treat ourselves best in the beginning, but I do feel like a lot of that time can be applied back into the profession and steering it to where it needs to go.

A I just don't think people are prioritizing their time like that, though.

B I don't either. No. I think there's, like, a big fear that if they take their foot off the gas, everything's gonna fall apart. And one of the things I did learn from lean is that, like, when you slow down, you slow down to go fast. You put an organizational system in place so that you can speed up. And there's I've seen over and over again, many architects are very unwilling to do that because they're like, oh my gosh. If I don't respond to this client right this second Right. You know, it's an emergency.

B If we don't get an answer out to our GC, you know, it's just like catastrophe. So, you know, there there's never a willingness to to slow down to go fast.

C Totally agree. We see it all over the place and kind of the also just setting poor expectations when you do respond in 30 seconds to the thing. It's like, well, okay. They're always gonna respond in 30 seconds to the thing, and so now I'm their highest priority just by default. And so it does become a slippery slope of there's takes the balance away from your life and from a balanced life. So it's impossible then to slow down because you're always just in reaction mode.

B Exactly. And I think that's something that I I I would say a big takeaway Evelyn has shown me is just this strategic thinking is a method to allow you to be more intentional. Like, that is the that's the point. That's why people get excited about it. It's a it's a value system back to time and aligning with your priorities and not being so reactionary. I wanna come to talking about the podcast because, Evan, you've done an extended portfolio of podcasting. And so I'm so interested to hear, you know, what are big things that you've learned through that process and, like, things that have helped you even improve as an architect by having these conversations?

C I think the biggest thing so one of the reasons I started podcasting was because I didn't feel like that. I don't necessarily want to pin it on, like, the company that I was working with, but let's just call it the profession. Didn't invest, wasn't interested in any one person in particular who is very interested in a trajectory that is not the normal. And I think a lot of people feel that way. Right? They feel like, my god. I could go so much faster. I could do so much more if you would just let me. Right? So it's kinda like waiting around asking for permission.

C And so my starting the podcast was like, screw it. Let's make something happen and be open to the opportunities that come from it. And it wasn't, like, super intentional, but it turned out to be a really good decision to make because it opened up a ton of opportunities that nobody else know, a, would ever get and b, just you could never see it coming. You can you never know. And so just kind of being open to what's possible with that, I think it was a really fun journey to go on. And so that to me is probably the biggest influence back into the profession is just being really open and being really curious and going outside of your usual echo chamber, which is like the office. Right? To because it's so funny. Architects love hanging out with architects until they don't.

C Even happy hours with a bunch of other architects

A architects. We can't get out of our own way fast enough, and we only complain to other architects.

C And then we pile

A up our own way. Like yeah. Exactly.

C So so and that was, you know, one of the big things about even branching out to another podcast myself was to expand the range of conversations and topics because Arka speak is very much about the the day to day, what it's like to work in an office and really exposing that and, like, the good and the bad. There's great stuff that especially older generations of architects will just tune in just so it's they feel like they're back in the studio. We've had those those comments, those that feedback given directly to us. It's like, man, I just turned it on so that I feel like, you know, even though I'm sitting alone at my drafting table in Vermont as a retiree, I feel like I'm in the studio again. But then we also get the students who are like, oh my god. Thank you for showing us what it's actually like because our professors don't know. They know they don't practice right there. Academics.

C So that to me has been I think that's valuable, but it gets kinda like what we just talked about, what Evelyn just mentioned, which was, like, it becomes kind of the circular conversation. Right? Like that we can't get out of our own way. And we're kind of did we say that already? I'm pretty sure we did 3 different times, but maybe this time it's a little different. We use a different word. But to me, expanding that out to tech and to which is there's constantly kind of fresh stuff there to talk about and and then using that as a tool to come back to practice with and saying, like, broader range of experiences equal better designer. I fully believe that. And so the more people on your team who you can encourage to have a broader set of experiences is going to lead to better design outcomes because there's more empathy, there's more experience, there's more points of view coming into the equation that creates design outcomes. So I that to me has been probably one of the biggest benefits of going into podcasting, but it doesn't stop there for me.

C It's adventure. It's travel. It's it's stuff like that too.

A I also think it's, like, all best intention. Right? Like, I know leaders out there who want this, but bring and bring that into their firm, but then they don't they don't give voice to those people. So it's

C It's almost like a marketing ploy. Like, yep. We hired this diverse group to work the same as we've always worked. They don't say the second part. Yes. But they like saying the first part.

B They they keep that, you know, behind the closet door until you get into the office.

C Right.

B And then the truth comes out.

A I think that's where my pessimism then kicks in because I I so want this to be an opportunity, a moment coming out of the pandemic for change in not only practice, but how we're working, with one another. And I'm just listening to all these principles saying like, but we can only, it's only always, we've only ever done it this way. It's only ever worked this way. I heard one principal say in the same breath, she believes with full conviction. You know, my small firm, you know, we just we're we're just getting back into the office, and we we really love the culture of being back in the office, you know, but we're talking about how many days we should allow individuals to have flexibility. And we're worried that if they give them too much flexibility, they won't show up in the office. And I was like, but you, like, said with so much conviction that, like, everyone loves being in the office. And yet, you know that they all want greater flexibility, and that's gonna change the dynamic.

A So so that's where you need to start to create change.

C Totally. That one statement is at odds with itself because it's, like, a personal preference that is applied to everybody to start it off, and then there's the reality of it. Yeah. It's interesting. Well, what about you guys on your podcast side, and how does that influence what you guys are doing now with your day to day main jobs?

B I think that I felt so restrained working in my career the past 10 years, and the podcast has been a way to break free from that. I started my business because I was I kinda came to the conclusion that if I can't practice in a way that makes me happy, then I have nothing to risk by starting my own business.

C You can always go back to unhappiness. Sure.

B Yeah. I can always go back to unhappiness, but I love running my business. It's so fulfilling for me. Now, of course, I've always wanted to, but but doing it, it's like, wow. I feel so much more fulfilled. Even on the hard days and coming through the hard stuff, like, I get so much joy out of it that it makes it worth it. I just don't think I could go back. And I and I think if more people realize, like, that if you didn't work for a firm, if you work for yourself and you consulted or you you know, I always think about Nels' interview that we did early on about this decentralized model of workforce.

B I really think that's the future because I feel so much joy in the way that I'm working now. I'm constrained. I take on the projects I want. It's hard. It challenges me, but I, like, get so much reward at the end of the day. But the podcast has been, like, therapeutic, to be totally honest. I had so much built up frustration, and I think I know people hear it in episodes. And I'm working through stuff, like, as I have these conversations to figure out, like, what do what do I think now? But I am really happy with the content that we've created because I feel like it's it's I believe in it, and I stand behind it.

B And and every time we have a new conversation, I learn something new that makes me feel more optimistic about the future of the profession again, whereas I I wasn't.

C Yeah. That's great. What about you, Evelyn?

A No. I'm I'm I think I think similarly. I I also think it was just like, I I go back to this whole notion of, like, like, always feeling so alone moving away from architecture and knowing that knowing that somewhere out there, there's other people that are equally feeling alone, and then having those individuals kind of reach back to us, out to us and saying, you know, what you're saying is resonating with us. Like, thank you, you know, thank you for having a for sharing your shared experience. That's that's kind of what what really continues to to drive me. I mean, we talked with Catherine about this. It's really hard to understand who's who's listening, who's resonating. Yeah.

A But but when we hear back from the listeners and they're saying, like, you're you're saying all the things that I am thinking, You know, thank you so much. That's that's kind of just what keeps it keeps me going, and it gives me more optimism for the future of of the profession.

C I I think one of the big drivers that I've you I taught a class for a couple of years, and it was about emerging technology. And that's that's before the podcast the new podcast started. And I shared those experiences on the other podcast, and that I think those stories really did resonate with people because the purpose of the class was to say, okay. Look. We've got all these new career paths possible inside of architecture for all of you students of architecture. It's not all about being a project manager, being a technical architect, or being a designer. It's actually not just those three things anymore. So look at all this huge landscape that technology is affording the profession and potential for you to go and try something and stay in the profession.

C And that, to me, is optimistic for the the audience we're talking about. Right? And so when it when you kinda compare, when you see people who are older, you know, well seasoned architects who are totally miserable. It's like, what are you giving people a model of looking forward to there? They're like, I don't wanna be miserable like you when I grow up. Right? But, man, there's a lot of other stuff out there. It's not just that one path. And so I think, like, that's where shows like ours come in to kind of help fill the void of potential for people and to keep them in the profession of architecture. I mean, if you survived architecture school and you enjoyed it, this is for you, but there's lots of different ways you can take it from here. If you survived architecture school and you didn't enjoy it, you should probably go do something else because, like, you'll never get anything out of this profession that'll be worth worth it.

C Like like you said, Janine is like, I wasn't happy, and I can always go back. I might as well try some other stuff and see if that makes me happy.

B I feel like we've gone into kind of a dark place, you guys. And I I do feel like we should come back to, our optimism, which is is what we're here to do through our shows. So maybe we can share some closing thoughts about optimism and where we're heading with the future of the profession.

A You know, while I kind of maintain this pessimistic framework, I am seeing these firms emerge from the pandemic differently. Right? That the there's these job postings going out for all all remote workers. So there there is there is hope that change is coming. I hope that these firms that make these changes are the ones that prove out to be the more successful ones. Because then then the firms that don't change have will have nothing to do but look at the firms that change and say, what are they doing differently? And how how can we like, we're no longer competing at their level.

C Yeah. I think something else that I'm really optimistic about is when I was in Washington DC last week, I was meeting with AIA. And, obviously, you're so involved there. And I I'm really optimistic. The group of people that I'm working with there are fantastic. And like you said a minute ago with with, like, the guests on the shows, there's people like that in the AIA too who are identifying these kind of opportunities and just going for it. And to me Right. That's fantastic.

C To to see that happening in our national organization is fantastic to see. So gave me a lot of good feelings, good vibes, and, and I'm excited to see where that goes. And and I know you're a big part of that as well. And and the work that you're doing there is in a similar vein. It's like identifying these things. Let's do something about them. Let's stop just talking about those. Obviously, policy and things like those take time, but raising those conversations to the surface and then acting on them has given me a lot of optimism for the profession and for our national organization.

B Before we get into our closing thoughts today, we wanted to share some info that we recently learned from the team at Arc IT.

A Did you know that new business was affected by ransomware every 14 seconds in 2019? And unfortunately, that number is on track to decrease to every 10 seconds by the end of 2021. It's so easy to assume that a ransomware attack will never happen to you, but this sobering statistic highlights the uncomfortable truth that new businesses are affected by ransomware attacks every day.

B And for the businesses that were affected, it took 34% of them a week or longer to regain access to their data. The cost of a ransomware attack impacts your operating expenses especially when you don't have access to your data it causes a diminished capacity of how you can operate, and in some cases, you might even have to close your doors.

A ARC IT is offering a free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment to help you determine how secure your business is. During the assessment, Arc IT will help you identify your top three highest risk areas in your business.

B Speaking of risks, Arc IT is also sharing some helpful tips with practice disrupted listeners that you can implement tomorrow to ensure your business is secure from cybersecurity threats.

A Today's episode tip is to protect your email from social engineering and phishing threats using advanced threat protection solutions like Mimecast.

B To take your cybersecurity solutions further, contact Arc IT at getarkit.com backslash practice disrupted to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions that will fit your design firm. Now back to our closing thoughts on today's episode. If you enjoyed listening to today's conversation with Evan Troxell, we highly encourage you to go check out Troxell and ArchiSpeak. Troxell is where you can find more content, especially related to technology as a driver for change in our profession. On his show, he's interviewing people weekly that are thinking about technology in a way that will elevate the profession. We will drop the link to his show in our show notes so you can go ahead and take a listen.

A As this is the close of our 50th episode, we also wanted to send thanks and appreciation over to Gable Media and especially Mark LePage, Demetrius Lynch, and Stace Carter who directly influence how we sound every time you tune into our podcast each Thursday.

B If you haven't listened to some of our earlier episodes, then you probably haven't heard us talk about how much we appreciate Gable Media, but they have supported us on this podcasting journey from the beginning. Mark LePage started out early on before podcasting became so mainstream and really took a chance to create a podcast entree architect that really gathered and organized architects behind this idea of business, and it has grown into this amazing community. He's gone on to create Gable Media with Demetrius Lynch. And through that network, we now have all these amazing podcast content creators, YouTubers who are working together to share a message about change and thought leadership in the industry. We feel really lucky to be part of that community, and it's through their support that we've been able to create 50 episodes.

A A big final thank you to Gable Media, Mark, and their crew on our 50th episode. Thank you to all of the more than 10,000 unique listeners that have tuned in to listen. We are excited about the content that we have coming up for you for the remainder of season 3, and we're already scheduling well into season 4. Thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

B Thank you to Twinmotion for their support of this podcast episode. Visit twinmotiondot link slash disrupted and try Twinmotion for free.

A Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. You can find all of our past episodes by visiting practice of architecture.com backslash podcast.

B You can also get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of a r c h.

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