Designing a Culture of Mentorship

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph, Twinmotion, and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode.

B I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, Dis Raptors.

A So today's episode is going to be a little different. Usually, Janine and I prep for an interview and then record our intro and outro separate so we can provide you somewhat of a recap at the end of each episode. However, today, we are gonna try to do it all in one, and that's mostly because today's guest is my co host, Janine, who's going to share some of the research she's been doing behind her business.

B Yes. And I think in Dungeons and Dragons terms, they would call this a one shot. So we're playing straight through in one sitting. But before we get into that, I wanna pause because I think we need to reflect on your story before my story. You made a big announcement last Thursday on running for national president of the AIA. The response has been amazing, especially over on LinkedIn, And I wanted to, you know, see if you wanted to share any updates now that you've gone through this process of sharing this publicly.

A I'm still collecting my thoughts, I would say. You know, no real updates, but just overwhelming gratitude for my extended AIA family and those who have already reached out and stated very publicly that they are supportive of this endeavor.

B The message I'm seeing is that people want change, and they definitely recognize that you're capable of delivering and leading change. And I feel like these conversations through the show have allowed both of us to explore change at a deeper level, especially in the context of architecture and what it takes to move through these conversations with actionable results?

A Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about change within an organization as large as the AIA, right, which our member count is back up to over 90,000 again, is that this position that I'm running for, vice president and president-elect, it's a 2 year position, but, ultimately, 1 year as president. And there's only so much that one person can do within the breadth of a year. However, I think there's a lot of momentum happening at the institute right now, and there's a lot of initiatives that have the potential to create change that I've been a part of. Most recently in my last 5 years being on the national board, 3 as an at large director elected by the strategic council, and then 2 years as treasurer. So it really makes me feel that change is possible right now, and I would love to be able to get some of these initiatives over the finish line and move the institute forward.

B So given all this change that we've been talking about and seeing, I wanted to take a moment and and do an episode dedicated to a snapshot of the research and all of the things that I've been learning through the podcast and my business, Apostrophe Consulting, and just share that with our listeners. Back in season 1, I brought Andrew Cronin on the show, who is my client from KieranTimberlake, and we touched briefly on some of the work that we were doing around mentorship at KT. And we're about to actually present another conversation together at the upcoming AIA South Atlantic Regional Conference next week, again, talking about mentorship, and he's gonna be co presenting with me. And we're gonna facilitate a workshop with, multigenerational team of architects and designers. So today's topic is a deep dive into mentorship and, really, by extension, leadership and talent development. I'm gonna share some of my work, and I hope it resonates with our audience.

A So for those of you who don't know Janine very well or just tuning in for the first time, thank you for joining us. Janine is my cohost and supports the practice of architecture as a collaborator. She also runs her own business full time, Apostrophe Consulting. So, Janine, you've been able to work with clients, specifically architecture firm, to bring some of these conversations on change, leadership, and talent development in house and give them a strategic way to move forward?

B Yes. That's right. And I have several clients I'm working with on a variety of project types, and one of those being in house strategic talent development consulting. So I'm look at one conversation, I'm talking about mentorship and another, it's leadership, but they both are basically tailored to this conversation of talent development and staff development designed specifically for those firms that I'm working with to, respond directly to their firm culture and their needs and integrating in the industry best practices as well as the research I've been doing.

A Great. So I'm so excited to hear more about this and ask you some questions. But before we jump into the interview, we usually share our guest's bio, so here goes. Janine Chastain is a consultant trained in architecture and business management with a decade of experience working with award winning architects. She founded Apostrophe Consulting to help architecture firms win more work, build a culture of leadership and trust within the studio, and create a pipeline for emerging leaders to grow. She is the cohost of this show, Practice Disrupted, a podcast that addresses how technology, cultural shifts, and emerging best practices in business are prompting industry disruption and transformation. A recipient of the 2017 AIA Associates Award, Janine holds both a b arc and a MBA. She specializes in facilitating conversations that engage multigenerational teams and has designed, developed, and presented dozens of professional development training programs that inspire next gen leaders.

A So before we jump into the conversation, I was trying to think back, Janine, to the first time we met. And I actually can't recall, but I do recall in kind of the months or weeks leading up to that first time that I was getting all of these AIA board members coming up to me saying, oh, you really need to meet this person, Janine. I think you guys would hit it off.

B Yeah. It's vague to me too, Evelyn, because I definitely knew about you before I met you. And then I think after I moved to California, somehow, I ended up at the AI California board meeting, and we ended up I vividly remember we ended up in a car driving back from Sacramento to the Bay Area, and that was probably, like, the first time that we were really able to have a group conversation.

A Blair Blandon.

B I was the driver.

A You were the driver driving us back. Well, thank you for that lift pack

B from from Sacramento. And then from there, we just, like, I mean, we just, like, continue to connect, you know, over many, many, many AI events. Yes.

A I wanna dive a little bit deeper on on mentorship. So so I don't know if our listeners have actually picked up on this, but there is a bit of a age gap between us. Not to say that's that's bad. I actually think it's very it's very productive to our conversations because I firmly landed myself in Gen X and you are a millennial. And I think that a lot of the conversations that we are having are both similar, but different enough that we bring, 2 different perspectives to the table. But I'm more interested in hearing specifically what you've been focusing on around mentorship.

B Yeah. I'm I'm really all in on this topic and I find it interesting because it taps into this people part of practice, which is always what I've been very excited about. From my early days in AIS, it was all about, like, developing people, and, specifically, I was always interested in helping the people that I was working with, as leaders grow. And so, you know, that shows up in a lot of different ways from career development to, just, you know, leadership development. Like, when you're when you're serving as an AIS chapter president early on, that's like a whole experience of learning how to be a leader for the first time. But, you know, I've gone on and I've worked with AIA leaders, you know, at all points in their careers. So I I find it very interesting. And while originally it was about leadership, you know, and how how to make architects better leaders, my work, you know, as it's evolved, I've realized that mentorship is basically an extension of leadership.

B And it's a great way to talk about leadership because it it explores talent themes across all aspects of the studio setting. So I'm working with several clients right now on mentorship and leadership and, essentially, just working with their staff to help them grow. And I've worked with a lot of leaders one to 1, but I find that in these conversations, it's really about, a group dynamic that's happening in the studio, the as we talk about studio culture going on. And it does happen to your point about all of these different generations kind of learning to work together and how to communicate together. So in addition to all of that, because of the pandemic, mentorship has emerged as a really important and growing request that I'm getting from architects, and they're asking me to help on, especially because of the talent development and retention piece, that I think a lot of firms are trying to figure out how to manage.

A And you and I have had this conversation. I a friend of a friend, I'm not gonna name any names, but very on early in my career, you know, I was I was admittedly kind of against all these mentoring programs because for me mentorship has to happen somewhat organically. Right? If the if the, if the relationship isn't there, you just, like, can't necessarily force that two way conversation to to happen. But your definition of a member of mentorship, I think, is a little bit more expansive than mine, and your approach is a little bit different. So what impact are you trying to make by focusing on this topic, and can you share a little bit more about kind of your expanded definition of mentors?

B There's a lot to discuss within what you just said. I mean, there's organic mentorship. There are structured mentorship programs. And, definitely, there's there's different needs that people have around mentorship, which I think is what is the hardest part, the people part. People need different things. There's a lot of different types of personalities in practice. And what takes what it takes to help one person grow is not gonna be the same thing that someone else needs. So it it creates this really complicated and complex problem to solve in the office.

B But I think, generally, like, my definition of mentorship is really geared around this idea of professional development and finding ways to help people grow in their in their careers or in their life. I think it's really about a growth mindset. And while early on, I was doing a lot of this program development through AIS that led to, you know, my work on the Leadership Institute, You know, I've done so much of that work over the years, and I just loved it that, I guess, eventually I realized I was like, I should do this in house with architecture firms. Like, why are we doing this only in AI settings when, like, the real problem is, you know, the project team that's not operating at its peak performance? So I was like, I need to shift this internally, and and that's what I've kind of been exploring over the past year and a half. Basically, that that desire to pursue mentorship or even leadership grew out of my experiences of trying to navigate my career and and trying come into the profession when the recession was happening. You know, in my 1st year of living in the Bay Area, Alex Tsai invited me to join AIU San Francisco's mentorship committee. And so I joined this really great group of people who were at all different points in their careers, and they were doing this mentorship model, which is based on cross generational mentoring strategies. And they do this thing called speed mentoring where they match people and they form these, like, mentoring groups that allows for about 5 people to come together in a self selection process that allows them to have a support network.

B So it just opened my eyes to all the different ways and strategies around how you can form growth and support systems for people. And I think, personally, like, from a very personal standpoint, I've just always been in search of mentors who understood me. I felt like my point of view is just kind of different than some people, and so I've I've been searching out people that see me and understand me and are able to help me as an individual. I think I talked about this in the episode with Vershae that that you weren't as a mentor, Evelyn, you weren't trying to change me, and I think what I meant by that it's not that I don't wanna change or grow. It's just that I I just I wanted somebody who understood what I was already bringing to the table and and valued that versus tried to and then, like, made that better versus, like, not understanding this outspoken person that's coming into their firm and then trying to essentially limit me or make me be something that I'm not. And so and and then I think that's really what it boils down to is, like, helping people grow from where they're at instead of, punishing people because they aren't the way that you want them to be. So that I mean, that's a little bit deep, but, you know, I I just I think that mentorship is is it does happen really organically, and there are so many mentors that show up in your life. You know? Like, there's there's the mentors by proxy where you have people who are assigned to you, and that's what you typically see in a very structured mentorship program.

B Or even, like, when you get hired and you're staffed on a project and you are paired with your project manager, you don't pick that person. They just are there and they mentor you. But what I I get excited about is the mentors who actually understand you as an individual and they intentionally help you grow. And then there's also the type of mentors that trigger really painful experiences in your career growth and that that they basically force you to grow through those experiences. And then there's, like, the informal network of peers that also become your mentors in the studio environment. So I don't know. I just I get excited about all this stuff because I see all this complexity to how these conversations around mentorship happen. And, instead of thinking, I think, very in a limited capacity about mentorship as a one to one relationship, I just see it as an infinite, expansive experience that you go through your entire career where you're meeting people and learning from people and you're growing through the process of, you know, just learning and making mistakes.

A Yeah. I guess I mean, one of the lessons that I'm learning from you, and I think you've just kind of restated it, is that you you actually might be a proxy mentor for somebody without having, like, formed the, do you want to mentor me? I want to mentor you. Or, like, having that conversation. Right? Vershae talked a little bit about it, and you kind of mentioned it. I think people go to different people for different needs in life. Right? So the person that you go to to to figure it out a d a detailed section might not be who you're going to to figure out your overall career trajectory, but those individuals, can both be your your mentors. So how is mentorship happening now in in firms, and then how are you kind of helping usher that forward in a more intentional way?

B Well, I just came off a workshop session with one of my clients, and and that, like, really energized me. So I'm in a very positive headspace about this and feeling optimistic. But I think when I was preparing for this conversation and I was trying to collect my thoughts, what I was thinking about are the really hardest parts of my experience working in practice, and I was trying to consider, like, what is the problem that I'm actually trying to solve and thinking critically about how to solve it. So I'm gonna do my best to recapture that energy, which is maybe, like, a little bit more critical. So my argument and plea to architects and what I'm really trying to overcome through this work is that, you know, if we are a profession that's trying to achieve perfection and peak performance at the highest standards, You know, if we aim to create projects that meet the code requirements, that are structurally safe, that are on budget, that are environmentally responsive, and that make our clients happy, and, most importantly, that are designed beautifully, we are trying to compete at a very high level. And so, of course, we have very high standards for the people around us on the project team that we are working with and that we're trying to bring together to deliver this project. We're asking ourselves to really show up at the highest level. But in reality, we know that this profession takes a lifetime of learning to get better at.

B So I guess I I just constantly am wondering why we're making it so difficult for people on our teams to succeed. In some cases, studios are actually psychologically unsafe, and people don't feel like they can be themselves. They don't feel like it's a safe environment to fail. And there are definitely different leadership styles out there that use fear based mentoring or, create consequences for people that make mistakes. And so I just wanna come back to this idea that I think is so important that it's if we're going to do great work, we need to help people rise to meet the challenge instead of crush them. You know, in my mind, mentorship should not be this isolated coffee meetup that happens once a year, or we shouldn't be just using annual reviews to be the one time that we give people feedback about things. Mentorship happens every day in relationships with your colleagues and your team. It happens on your projects.

B It happens in studio gatherings. It happens when you guys have a deadline and when you're working side by side. And so we have to recognize that that that mentorship is not just the person that you get assigned to be your mentor or mentee. It's everybody in your office. And so to be a place where people can thrive and grow, mentorship needs to be part of the studio culture. It has to be an intentional part of the way that you work and the way that you run your business, that you're investing in it and you are making a safe place where your staff feel like they can take risks, that they can fail, and that they can improve. It requires leaders to set aside outdated leadership strategies that punish people and reenvision how we practice and communicate and collaborate in the studio environment in this new era of work. Mentorship is based on the historic model of apprenticeship, which, again, is that idea of the one to one relationship.

B And at one point, that model worked in practice, but in today, with a culture of busyness and a lot of email and high stakes and complexity that is challenging to manage, I think that that model doesn't work as well anymore. And so there's a need for us to focus on how we support our staff, which ties into this larger conversation around talent development where I consistently see firms coming up short. So interestingly enough, I think that mentorship is the key to help studios operate at a high performance level.

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A You kind of gave a plea, if not a warning to all the architects out there. So hopefully our listeners are taking notice. And I've actually seen, unfortunately, a lot of bad behavior, especially that have been coming out of the pandemic, you know, and and their employees that that are making statements on social media in various different contexts about what's happening in their firm. So but there are a few firms that are doing it right. So what does it look like for those firms where the supportive environment is happening?

B Yeah. And, again, like, there are definitely firms that are doing it right. So, you know, I'm talking about worst case scenarios as a warning, but I I think that the firms that are doing it right and the and the firms that are coming to me to do this type of consulting work are actually interested in this process of designing the studio environment to respond to the way that their teams and their office need to function, and figuring out, like, how do they help people at the individual level? How do they help their team succeed? And so we are talking a lot in those conversations about ways in which you can lift people up through project work. And a big takeaway for me has been just talking about this idea of making people feel seen and valued. So many times in busy projects, you know, we get tied up on the deadline, and then we forget that there are people around us on this project that are at various stages in their career, and they need to feel valued in order to feel like they wanna stay at the firm and grow at the firm and to to nurture those people and to help them feel like they're succeeding so that they have a reason to stay. I think the metrics for what makes people want to stay at Affirm have changed dramatically from the way that it worked decades ago. And so it's an entirely different value system now, I think, in many ways. It's no longer based on salary and loyalty.

B It's really based on, feeling valued and feeling like, especially for younger people, millennials included, that they're on a pathway to growth, in some capacity. Money is important also, but there are other metrics. And I think, Evelyn, you've probably even seen some very sophisticated ones working at Slack from the technology side, but these incentives that you can give to your employees that make them feel like, you know, it's much more than just the paycheck that they're getting an entire experience out of working at the firm. So, I'm talking to my clients about planning for growth and creating pathways for people in their firm, not just annually, but daily and weekly and yearly, and how do you help bring them up in the firm? You know, we've also talked about on the show this idea, of studio culture. And so, I've been talking to my clients about this concept that I call crick culture in the office, and it's really basically this communication system around how we communicate to each other. And I think that is a really important place where the conversation has room to grow, because we we inherited these toxic behaviors where we critique people and we tear people down, and it's in support of making the project better. But there's a better and more human way to communicate criticism and improvement that humanizes individuals. And so we're talking a lot about what what those conversations look like and how you achieve them and how you prioritize them with your time.

B And then I think most importantly, it just really boils down to getting to know every person in your office on a truly one to one basis. And I know that's hard, especially when you have a large team. But if you're empowering the people in your office to lead and it's not all just funneled through one person at the top, then your project managers and your project architects and your job captains should each be playing a leadership role in cultivating those one to one relationships that create a network of support across the office, so that they can tap in and really understand and and know what motivates people, what their communication preferences are, how they work best and when, and what they're struggling with and and and really instead of punishing them for the things they're struggling with, helping them to succeed both in a personal and professional capacity. My hope is that we can start helping architecture firms and the industry as a whole prioritize growth at the individual scale for the people who are trying to pursue architecture as a career to support these individuals. Because I think at the end of the day, that's what millennials and Gen z are looking for desperately. And the firms that can offer that along with some form of flexibility, they're gonna win the war on talent. They're gonna be able to keep and retain their people longer.

A So I wanna go back to this idea about kind of mentorship as an inorganic thing versus kind of a a system or process for developing mentorship. You believe that there's an ability to kind of formalize this in a way that helps everyone at the firm grow and develop together. So can you go a little bit deeper into that? I mean, my argument has always been that my best mentors have come out of the relationships that I've kind of maybe purposefully had to develop on my own because there there was never kind of a a there was I never had that support in the firm.

B Yeah. That's a good point, Evelyn. And I've been trying really hard to figure out where the gap is on this conversation because I can see it both ways. And the best that I can come up with is that I think that, first of all, if we think about so many different individual needs, I think there are people out there that don't need this level of support. It's not something that, they are looking for. Whereas there are other people that are that that would definitely benefit from that. So in some cases, that's that's part of the conversation. I in one conversation, I actually heard someone tell me that they were like, I've never had a mentor, so I don't even know what it looks like.

B And and that was really interesting to me too because I think that's true in our industry too where there's a void in some cases of what is mentorship, what does it look like. People don't actually know how to execute it, and therefore, it doesn't happen. Or there is an assumption that it's happening, And I think this comes back to this conversation that you've and I've had about the hybrid practice of some people feel like it's organically happening by proxy when people just listen in in studio conversations. But what I've found in researching all these different firms and how they're thinking about mentorship is there are a lot of ways to design mentorship structures. The most important part is to actually, like, be talking about it, to prioritize it as a firm owner and a leadership group to, make it something that the firm is just even discussing at an individual scale. Because I think when people don't and they just assume that it's happening, it's probably not happening quite as much as it should. I think you and I are both people who will go seek out mentorship when we feel like we need it. I'm not sure that everybody is that personality type.

B So I agree. Like, some of the best relationships that I've had have been organic, and, like, I think that's you know, you, definitely, Clark Manis was another one that showed up in my life, and and, definitely, there there are so many others who have helped and supported me along the way. But when I've been in firms, I have felt so alone at times when I don't have good support systems around me. And that has been the hardest part about practicing is just not having the right people in my corner to make me feel like I should stay, I that I'm growing, that I feel invested in, in the ways that I need. When it's one person in the office that sees the value in you, that's really hard. And so, I think the reason I'm fighting so hard to design this is very personal, but it's it's really to reach the people that I think feel most isolated in this industry.

A So you mentioned a little bit about your research and, obviously, the need the need for firms to set mentorship as a strategic priority. What are some of the other things that you're kind of finding is really effective when it comes to putting these programs in place?

B Yeah. I think leaders have to model it at the highest levels. And, you know, we've talked about this before. There are leaders who understand this concept and that they are already doing it, and there's definitely leaders who don't understand the value of this and they don't know how to model this behavior. But, basically, I think that we need to think about what happens in the process of when we make mistakes. Again, to come back to this idea of if we're trying to do work at the highest level possible, how do we help people rise to be able to reach that high objective that we're setting? We know that people are going to make mistakes because it's just a part of the process. And so you need to plan for that rather than being surprised when mistakes happen and getting upset with people when they make mistakes. You know, I think from a leadership perspective that it's really important to start thinking about how do we teach people through making mistakes okay in order to achieve better results.

B This is something that I think is a philosophy that you and I recognize, like, in the business world and also I think it shows up in tech. Like, being okay with mistakes because when you learn from your mistakes, you get better.

A You obviously have the experience having worked in architecture firms. You've done a lot within AIAS and AIA when it comes to professional development and leadership coaching. How specifically are you helping firms with mentorship?

B So I try to show people that this conversation is so much bigger than themselves and break past their limitations. You know, when people are not mentoring, you know, sometimes there's things that they're thinking that are prohibiting them from mentoring. And I always am trying to figure out, like, how to get them past that. So some examples are, how can I help you when I have this, like, urgent deadline that I've gotta try and work on? That's an that's a huge one that gets in the way of mentoring all the time. Or I don't need this type of support, so why would I give it to you? You know, it it might be subconscious that they don't even know how to do it, or nobody helped me do this. So, you know, why why I'm gonna why am I gonna do that for you? We need to learn how to prioritize these conversations within our work structures and within our project development work, because people are the hardest part of the business because they're the most complicated. They're messy. So understanding people's strategies and how to lead people and how to communicate with people, with varied life experiences and varied ways that they think and communicate and solve problems, It's the way forward in in how to make our offices so much stronger.

A I don't know if it's a level of emotional intelligence, but it's this this notion, this culture that we've set up of kind of constant feedback. Right? So one, like you said, you're not waiting for an opportunity, like the annual review to really get that feedback. Like like, everyone is giving feedback to everyone kind of on on the fly, and it's done in a way that's very constructive. But also and I've seen this happen so many more times in the last 2 years at Slack than I have it seen happen in the 7 plus years I was working in practice was the vulnerability of the leaders to actually call out and say, hey. This is this is where I went wrong. You know, thank their team for kind of bringing it to their intention and then and then move forward to together. So, and that definitely for me is a sign of, like, not higher emotional intelligence, but but a level of emotional intelligence, and vulnerability that is refreshing in the tech space.

B Yeah. I I think that's a really good point is is that visibility at the leadership level to demonstrate basically modeling the behavior that they would want to see across the office. I don't know why either. I I I still feel like architects, you know, we we're trying to get things right, so there's a lot of pointing out what's not working, what's wrong, what's, an error. And I think it's just a it's a shift away from that this all or nothing mentality that, when you're developing people, you have to take kind of maybe a balanced approach to providing feedback and definitely recognizing that people are going to make mistakes. There are different levels of support that you can provide them that translate to helping them, actually grow faster when you're, aware of their specific needs.

A Yeah. And maybe it's just that the risk is so much higher. Right? We're licensed to protect the health, safety, and welfare. I mean, I think we need to acknowledge that there's different levels of mistakes. Right? Mistakes that happen in different phases of design even. But I do feel like there is this overwhelming it's not I don't know if it's mentoring by fear, but it is. And you alluded to this, this level of professionalism that, like, we aren't really allowed to make mistakes because, you know and the most dramatic view on this would be, like, there's human lives at stake. Right? But I think if you look more closely at it, like, if I get a door detail wrong, it's it's gonna be okay.

A But, you know, so so how do we how do we let those mistakes happen? And, also, how how do we get leaders to acknowledge kind of the mistakes that that they've had and have been able to overcome too, I think, is equally as important.

B Definitely. That transparency is so important and not everybody is comfortable with, talking about their mistakes in that way, but I think that it it actually is a very inspiring thing for staff, when done right to recognize that they're the leaders in their firm are human, and, I I don't know. I just I think it's it it helps to know that when your boss is okay with making mistakes and then getting past them and and doing better the next time, it makes you feel more comfortable with doing the same, modeling the same thing. Before we get into our closing thoughts today, we wanted to share some info that we recently learned from the team at Arc IT.

A Our friends at Arc IT are helping architecture firms with their technology solutions, including fighting back against ransomware and cybersecurity attacks. They recently told us about 1 San Francisco based design firm they help who had 3 ransomware attacks in a span of 6 months. Their latest hit took their generic IT provider over 7 days to recover the data.

B Yikes. Imagine not having access to your project data for over 7 days. For a midsized firm of 40 people, that's a lot of people not having the ability to do work on their projects.

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A Arc IT is offering a free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment to help you determine how secure your business is. During the assessment, ARC IT will help you identify your top three highest risk areas in your business.

B Speaking of risks, Arc IT is also sharing some helpful tips with practice disrupted listeners that you can implement tomorrow to ensure your business is secure from cybersecurity threats.

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A So we've talked through a lot of a lot regarding mentorship. And and ultimately, what I'm seeing is that there's a lot of opportunity for greater growth in this area, in our industry, if I'm if I'm to take a more positive spin on this. So what kind of what would you like to leave our listeners with? Any final thoughts for both kind of the individual struggling in the firm as well as from leaders out there. So I guess that's 2 different things. And then, you know, if if they're interested in getting more support on this topic, how do they get in touch with you and and what would be the next steps there?

B Sure. I think, in some of my presentation work, I definitely talk about, these dual points of view of the mentor versus the mentee. And we also kind of have evolved this conversation into talking about, the responsibility of everybody to be both a mentor and mentee. So, from a from a firm leadership standpoint, I think the biggest thing that leaders need to understand is regardless of how you view your firm, others are not gonna view it the same. There there are gonna be hidden things that you cannot see, in leading the business forward. So I think it's important to recognize that and understand that there are gonna be people who are struggling for reasons that you cannot understand. And your job as a leader is to figure out how to help everyone be successful because by doing that, it results in better project team performance and better projects, ultimately. And it hope and it's going to help you with retention long term.

B So there's there's that perspective. And then from the mentee perspective, I think there is a, growth process in terms of helping to learn and grow in your confidence on how to communicate the things that you're struggling with in order to get the help that you need. And so, you know, if you're feeling isolated, if you feel like you're not in the right scenario for yourself, there there are things that you can do to practice, like, your communication skills around that, that might actually help you get the support that you're looking for in a different way than you've been been trying to get it. But, basically, investing in a shared conversation in the firm where everybody is focused on how do we do mentorship better together is going to open up the doors for those conversations to happen, and it's a really great way to take your design skills and apply it towards organizational leadership and design in support of making the firm better. So I would encourage everyone, if you don't have a mentorship program in house, to form a committee or get together and talk to people and figure out how is mentorship going to show up in your studio ecosystem. If you're interested in learning more about this work, I do workshops, and like I said, I go in and I do needs assessment and help firms design strategies around this. So you can contact me. My website's apostrophe.consulting, or you can get in touch with me at info@apostrophe.consulting.

B I'd love to help you. I've been helping firms all over the country, and I'm I'm really excited by this work because I think we're making some amazing experience about redesigning the way that studios operate in order to improve performance. So I know that everyone can benefit from this conversation.

A Thank you, Janine, for this really thoughtful conversation around mentorship and for sharing your research. For those of you who are interested in pursuing this further, definitely reach out to Janine and look at her website, apostrophe dot consulting. We will leave all of this information down in the show notes below as well. Thank you for listening, and please tune in next week.

B Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

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