She Builds Crossover in Three Acts

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is brought to you by Monograph, Arc IT, and NCARB. You'll hear more about them later in the show.

B I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, disruptors.

A This week, we're excited to offer another crossover episode with our friends at She Builds Podcast. She Builds is part of Gable Media and has reduced over 40 episodes of content featuring women in the design and construction industry.

B She Builds podcast features the seldom told stories of women who build, women whose worth is not taught in schools, but who have shaped the industries of architecture, construction, and development over the last century. The podcast was started by 3 friends, Nordjuri Rivas, Jessica Rogers, and Elizabeth or Lizzie Rahr, who, after graduating from architecture school, together wanted to fill in the gaps in their education and share those with others.

A Every story they tell on their show features a woman who is disrupting their chosen profession simply by showing up and doing the work. Today, they are going to share some of the stories with us through the lens of Practice Disrupted.

B We have a special spot in our hearts for these podcasters. To celebrate the amazing work that they're doing, we thought it would be fun to team up for another crossover episode. And today, we're gonna offer something a little different, a a bit of a remix of pairing themes between our show and the way that She Builds tells stories. So without further ado, I present to you the special She Builds practice disrupted podcast crossover in 3 acts.

C Woo. Yeah.

B Alright. Here we go. Act 1, identity and culture. High, Nerdery. Welcome to the show.

D Yeah. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm a big fan of your show, so I'm kinda fangirling right now. You don't have to keep that.

B Well, we are thrilled to have you. And to celebrate all the research and love you've done to put into telling these amazing stories, I can't wait to hear what you've organized today, and I feel like we're about to get schooled on some architectural herstory.

D Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me to share this story with y'all. Actually, one of the things that I really, really like about your show is out of all the subjects you cover, my favorite one is about culture and identity. I think it's really important for society and as architects to talk about those stories because we have a responsibility to reflect the identity and culture of a place in the built environment. So that's why I really like that subject. Yeah. We agree. We love culture topics too.

B Of course, you do. That's why you

D do it. Oh, So why you do it? Okay.

A So sassy back talk now.

C Inevitable.

D You told me to be me. On Sheba's podcast, we've shared the stories of a number of ladies that had identity and culture as the driving force of their work. Ladies like Lina Bombardier, Mary Elizabeth Jane Coulter, Dora God, Minette De Silva, and Jane Drew. Today, I wanna focus on the last 2 on that list, Mina de Silva, and Jane Drew. Let me start with Jane Drew. Are you ready?

B I'm ready. Let's hear it.

E Okay.

D The time, March 24, 1911. The place, England. Jane Drew was born. She graduated from the AA Architecture School in 1934. At the time, there were not a lot of ladies in the field of architecture. Firms would flat out tell her, sorry. We don't hire women, or more like, sorry. We don't hire women.

D Like, this was a valid reason for not hiring someone. Like, can you believe it? Did that ever happen to y'all? The experience motivated Jane to start her very own firm. She started it in 1934, and she called it Jane Bedrew. Now guess what kind of jobs she got hired to do when she started? Just guess. Interiors. Chairs? Furniture?

A No. I'm just saying interior. Like like right?

D I mean,

A like Interiors. The interior decorator.

D Chair designers. That's a really good guess.

B I'm gonna guess admin.

D Well, those are really good guesses. Kudos to you. But she actually got a lot of jobs doing kitchens. And she decided that she was gonna do the best kitchens ever, and she researched the heck out of those kitchens. She found out that the average height of women in England had gone up, so she raised the counter heights in her designs. And she studied the motions and activities of women in the kitchen, and she suggested placing the laundry room near the kitchen to raise efficiency. So her client basically told her that nobody cares about improving efficiency for women and to please don't waste their time with silly ideas.

C And I

D think that the joke's on them because nowadays, I mean, where is the laundry? It's pretty standard. It's near the kitchen.

B Pretty genius.

E Right?

A Yeah. Mine's definitely near the kitchen. And my well, my house was built in 19 sixties. So

D There you go. Mine too. I live in an apartment, and it's like a little closet right next to the kitchen. It's very convenient. Jane thought so too, and she wrote a book about it. She called it kitchen planning, a brochure of new plans and suggestions for labor saving kitchens. So I'm not saying that we have to thank Jane, but maybe. Eventually, Jane graduated for kitchens.

D Thank goodness. From 1944 to 1946, she was the assistant town planning adviser to the resident minister for the British colonies in Africa. Listen to this. She got paid a £100 less than everyone else just because she was a woman.

B That's crazy. Can you imagine? I mean, I know I hear stories, even the equity by design survey. Like, it it's still happening, but it's hard it's hard to know that it was it's always been that way.

D Yeah. I think it's hard to know that it was so blatant. Like, today Yeah. It's kinda hush-hush. We know it's happening. But in that time, it was so normal. They would flat out tell her that's what it was.

E Yeah. Or, like, expected. Like like, she should be just so happy that she gets to do that. A job.

D Exactly. That she's even there. Well, the person that was getting paid a £100 less realized that the architects in the office were just duplicating the designs that they did in England, in Africa. And Jane was like, wait a minute. We're in Africa. I mean, everything is different, the climate, the people, the culture. So she made it a point to learn a bit about the local language and try her best to communicate with the people that she was serving and become involved and try to understand their culture and their needs so that she could integrate that into her designs. Seems obvious, but later on, Jane and her husband, Max Frey, formed the firm Frey, Drew and Partners, focusing on large scale planning for tropical countries.

D And they wrote books about what is today known as regional modernism, integrating the lessons of the modernist movement with the needs of a specific region, because what worked in England and Paris was not exactly the same as what would work in Ghana and Nigeria. Jane's firm hired local craftsmen and artisans to make sure they integrated local aesthetics and culture in their buildings and town designs. Jane became so well known and so legit that the Indian Prime Minister of India, Prime Minister Nehru, invited her to lead the design of a new city, Chandigarh, yet she was so busy to run that project that she recommended a little known architect, Le Corbusier. Have you heard of this guy?

B Oh, man. What a nice referral.

D I'm sure

B he appreciated it.

D Right. He needed the money. I'm sure. Actually, maybe he did. But did you guys do you remember this project from school?

B I actually had to look this one up, and, yeah, I definitely remember looking at this one. But, gosh. Wow. What an opportunity that she passed off.

D Exactly. I remember, like, we studied this to death in school so much. So much. The only person that they ever mentioned was Le Corbusier, and it was, like, a huge shock to me to know that if she hadn't recommended him, like, this project probably wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for her.

A I wonder how many other projects out there. Like you know, it just makes you it just makes you wonder.

D So many. Exactly.

C So many. You can listen to my show. Get a clue.

D Just as a side note, I've been thinking about, like, Starkitex and how we give them so much credit, and they're not alone. Like, Carbusier didn't design a whole freaking city by his by himself. There was, like, this huge team of people behind him that we never ever talk about. Like, he was brilliant on his own when he really wasn't. I mean, he was brilliant, but there were a lot of people.

C It takes

B a team.

C It takes

D a team. Exactly.

A I've always wanted was, like, the IMBD version of Yes. Buildings.

E Like, who was who everyone who worked on the project.

C Yeah. Yeah. Could you imagine drafter, contractor, but, like, not just, like, the name of the firm, but, like, break it down. Like, credits on the move. Members.

A And then, like,

C you know, like,

A people maybe people would begin to understand the complexity of the teams that go into producing these buildings too.

E Absolutely.

D That's very true. How do we get that happening, Evelyn?

A I don't know.

B Let's I'm talking

D Okay. Let's talk about that after this. Okay. So back to Jane. So even though Jane wasn't running the project, mister was, she did a lot of work. And not just her. Her husband, Max, Pierre Generet, and a large team of Indian architects for years worked on this project, but like we've been saying, only Le Corbusier gets to be the rock star. Whatever.

D Jane was still a rock star, honestly. Like, she has this large body of work all over Nigeria, Ghana, the UK, India. I mean, you could do a deep dive, get some wine, spend hours on YouTube looking at videos and pictures of all her projects and her work, or you could also listen to episode 7 of She Builds podcast just to get a little start.

B Yeah. Highly recommended. We will list more details in the show notes on how to catch up with that episode. But I think you're right. I think her identity as a woman attempting to practice architecture at a time that it was so rare that they basically wouldn't hire her and then paid her less. It's just amazing. And and due to the social norms of the time, it's yet she persevered, and she was able to find her path into the field of architecture.

D Yeah. That's one of the reasons I wanted to tell her story because it's so powerful. And, also, she was really like, she went to this new country. Every time that she stepped into the project, she tried her hardest to understand the people that were using it, and that's why she was really special to me. Okay. So I've probably taken up 20 minutes already, but I wanna try to tell you one more story, if that's okay.

B Go for it.

D Let me tell you the story of Minette de Silva. The time, February 1, 1918. The place, Kandy Ceylon, today, Sri Lanka. Minette de Silva was born. She studied architecture in Mumbai and worked as an apprentice for the firm Mistry and Burdoir. Later on, she moved to England, and she graduated in 1948 from the AA in London just like Jane Drew. Well, Jane Drew did it, like, way before her, so they didn't they didn't see each other in school. But Minette was the first South Asian woman to become an associate member of the Royal Institute of British Architects, and she was also part of Siam, which is, like, this famous huge modernist movement group.

D She represented Sri Lanka and India, making her the first Asian delegate of the group. There, Minette became close friends with Jane Drew. So even though they meet they didn't meet in college, they they did get to spend some time together. And also with our friend from the other story, Le Corbusier. Yeah. They were friends. It's okay. He shows up a lot.

D Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like all the connections she made and that she was adding representation of her community to these very important groups. I find that really important. And, I mean, think of all the good and important work that you do as part of the AIA and how important that is for the organization that underrepresented people join and become active. I actually wanna hear from you. Like, isn't it very important that the 2 of you are in the AIA making change?

B We try our best.

A I hope so.

B It's hard. You know? We hear architects complain about the AIA all the time, and I feel like, you know, Evelyn and I have been in the fight for a long time trying to be drivers of change. And sometimes people don't see that the AI is just made up of people trying to do things, trying to do the good work, and, it's not like the wizard of Oz. There's no man behind the curtain. It's all these individual people that volunteer thousands of hours of their time to make change.

D I just I mean, that made me think of y'all because Minette was joining these groups that didn't have a lot of women in them and didn't have a lot of South Asian representation. So it made me think of y'all and all the groups that you're part of and the people that you represent in those groups. That's

C it. Yeah. If anything, I would say, like, it's more so of, like, these groups that you insert yourself in as networking opportunities to create a change in your own way. So it's not even large organizations, but just even the friend groups and the people that you surround yourself with. Because at the end of the day, you wanna make the world a better place. And if it's through the lens of architecture, that's where it is. And by you being a part of it, you're representing a demographic that's not there.

D So after she graduated the AA, she went back home because it had just gained independence from Britain, and it had become Sri Lanka. Imagine this opportunity as an architect to work and shape a new country. I mean, that is amazing. Mhmm. I was really inspired by that. But like we discussed earlier, it was really hard for women to get work. Minette had to start her own firm, and then clients, engineers, contractors refused to work with her. Her first clients were family friends.

D Since contractors didn't wanna work with her, she had to use local artisans and craftsmen to build houses. This worked for her because she believed in preserving traditional arts and crafts, building methods, and materials, so it worked out. She was one of the first architects in Sri Lanka that incorporated her western education with Sri Lanka architecture. She didn't just do one thing or the other or, like, some sort of a weird mix. She wanted her architecture to reflect Sri Lanka's culture and identity. Her style was part of what is known today as tropical regionalism. I just was thinking about it. Like, yesterday, I was talking to Lizzie.

D Imagine if contractors didn't wanna work with you. Like, if you had to go to people that don't know what they're doing, really.

B Yeah. But this is so entrepreneurial of her. Like, she went out and, you know, because she recognized the value of local culture and local artisans, she was willing to pull them in and be creative about bringing people in to collaborate on projects that should reflect the community through the hands of people that live in the community.

A It's so interesting to me in both the the first story that you told and the story that it's like the women intuitively say, we need to bring back, like, the human local aspect to the projects. Mhmm. Right?

D Yeah. I mean, it's really powerful that she had the opportunity to do what she did. And it was important to her, like you said, to carry on the Sri Lankan traditions and the materials and the culture. So, yeah, I agree with you. Her projects include a lot of houses, a community center, and she also wrote the section on South Asian architecture in Bannister Fletcher's a history of architecture.

B Oh, PS. I did have a professor trick me into buying that book. It's massive and expensive.

D Oh, really?

B Yeah. If anyone ever wants to see it, it's it's a thick book.

D Is Minette so she she wrote in the 18th edition. There's, like, more than one. I don't know which one you have. It's Minette in

B there. My

C copy. I'll

A get back to you.

D Oh my god. When I visit you, I wanna see that. Definitely.

C We've talked about creating, like, a library of all the books that are mentioned in our show.

D They're expensive.

B This one's expensive. I had to, like and then I was, like, why'd you make me buy this book? It wasn't worth it?

D You didn't read it cover to cover.

B Worth it. Well, I definitely did not read it cover to cover. It's more of a reference manual.

C Mhmm.

D If you ever wanna sell it, we can talk. After that, in 1996, she was awarded the gold medal by the Sri Lanka Institution of Architects. Minette dreamed of publishing an autobiography, but sadly died before finishing it. The incomplete autobiography is called The Life and Work of an Asian Woman Architect, and it was published posthumously in 1998.

A Nerjuri, thank you so much for giving us an example of a South Asian architect. And, you know, I think we leaned into this a little earlier, but it it is important to tell their stories. And I think now that we think about the conversation that we have earlier, I think it's actually more important that even other people tell their stories. Because I think it's it's hard for these individuals to tell their own stories about why their contributions were so specifically significant because they were a person of a certain background or a person of certain color. So while, you know, obviously, being a woman is just one part of an identity and being Asian is also another part of I my identity, it it obviously informs how people look at me and how I look at the world. Like, I need these stories to kind of almost remind me of my Asianness sometimes. Right? Like, my family raised me. I'm very American.

A They they both immigrated here to to follow the American dream. So it's it's something that I've had to come to terms of and kind of, like, realize and be more for like, further educated on even as as an adult.

D Well, I'm glad that you enjoyed the stories. I I really wanted to tell these stories today because they're similar but from different perspectives.

B And if you wanna catch more on these women, we'll drop the details in the show notes.

D Okay. I'm leaving now. Bye.

B But wait. There's more.

D Oh, there is?

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A Their latest tip is to enable 2 factor authentication for every business related service and personal services that store sensitive or credit card information, including Netflix.

B Tune in next week to hear the next tip from Arc IT. To take your security solutions further, contact Arc IT at www getarkit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions for your design firm. Hi, Disrupters. Janine here. If you're like me and have a lot of ideas about how to improve the profession of architecture, well, I've got good news for you. Here's your chance. Incarb wants to hear from you. Their ongoing analysis of practice study is your opportunity to shape the future of architecture.

B Share your experiences and insights from working in architecture and tell NCARB what you wish they would do better. Your feedback will help guide changes to the national experience and examination programs for architects and impact what being a licensed architect could look like. Whether you're an architect or you work with architects, Incarb wants to hear from you. Make sure your voice is heard. Contribute to the analysis of practice study today. Open a new browser tab and sign up at encarb.org/a0p. That's incarb.org/a0p. We're gonna move on to act 2, workplace cultural shifts, And this one's by Lizzie.

B So hi, Lizzie. Welcome to the show.

E Hey, guys. So another topic that you both explore a lot on your show are workplace cultural shifts, which is obviously very relevant right now. And I was thinking about this sort of in the context of our our ladies to try and think about who to talk about. I'm not gonna lie. There's a lot of people that we could be talking about. Emily Warren Robling came to mind, Florence Nightingale, and Julia Morgan. And I think a lot of a lot of our ladies created major cultural shifts in the workplace just because they were like, women in the profession were abnormal to begin with. Right? So, like, in a way, they're all doing that and disrupting in that way, but a few of them kind of really stood out to me.

E So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Beatrix Farrand, Louise Bethune, and then I'll give you a sneak peek of a future lady whose episode is coming out later this month. So Exciting. Whee. So okay. Let's start with Beatrix. She was born in 18/72 in New York City, And her family taught her all about gardening when she was growing up, and she was always really interested in plants. So, eventually, she decided to study landscape architecture. And she had an apprenticeship with Charles Sprague, who was a well known landscape designer in the Boston area.

E And she saw Frederick Law Olmstead's design of the Chicago World's Fair, and that really inspired her as well. So at the time, Columbia School of Mines, which is the engineering school, they didn't allow women. So instead, she hired one of the faculty members to teach her on the side in drafting and surveying. And I just love how determined and industrious she was to kind of figure out, like, okay. So So what do I need to do to learn what I need to learn? I think that's true of a lot of our women. You can see they're all very determined, and they kind of will go to any length to figure out how to get where they wanna go.

D I love that.

E Yeah.

B Those are girls after my own heart.

E Right? So in 18/96, she's 23 years old, and she decides, you know what? I'm a start my own firm. And she got her first jobs through family connections, but after a while, she was really busy designing gardens for various estates in the New England area. So we talked about this on this episode when we did it, but, like, were either of you ready to start your own business when you were 23 years old?

B I wish I had, but I I wouldn't have had the confidence to do it.

A Yeah. Well, I've always been I always moonlit moonlighted. Yeah. Not architecture projects, but, like, I always was doing something on the side. So 23 me would say that's not really a business, but, like, 43 actually, 42 me says, like, you know, I was kind of being a little bit entrepreneurial. So in in a way, maybe I

E did. Yeah.

A I still had to pay taxes. So I guess so.

E Yeah. But I think Well, then yeah. I agree with you that business. When you're 23, though, you're thinking like, ah, this isn't really, like, you know, or you're just kinda figuring your way through the profession. So

A Right. I do wonder, though, you know, to have the money to pay a faculty member to teach you how to draft, I'm wondering if she historically came from any Oh, she did. So she saw that she got that entrepreneur spirit from her parents.

E Yes. You're very right. She actually her family is, like, the phrase keeping up with the Joneses. That's her family.

C They're the Joneses.

D They're literally the Joneses.

E Yes. So, yeah, there's definitely some money there, and there's there's definitely some of that. And I mean, she was, you know, I think living in her family home and started the business out of her home and that kind of thing. So

D Yeah. We talked a little bit about the the privilege that she had too.

E Oh, yeah. And, I mean, that's true, I think, of a lot of our ladies as well because I think, yeah, they just they had more ability and more privilege to be able to kind of go farther in a time where that was not very accepted. So

A Right. And that privilege also kind of, I think, I would imagine instills a level of confidence to

D that a woman

C Yeah. Yeah.

A Who just wouldn't have as well.

E Definitely. Well, in 18/99, the American Society of Landscape Architects was formed, and Beatrix was one of the 11 founding members and the only woman. She's considered the 1st female landscape architect in the US, and she's certainly someone who helped shape landscape architecture as a profession. Her practice and just kind of the structure of it was a model for other women and firms who followed after her. Other landscape architects like Ellen Biddle Shipman and Marion Kruger Kaufmann, they would base their firms off of what Beatrix did. And I I just when I was looking into workplace cultural shifts, I remembered this, and I was thinking like, well, if that isn't a cultural shift in the workplace, I don't really know what is. You know?

B Yeah. She was a early model for other women to look to.

E Exactly. So she would go on to design many university campuses across the country, and she also designed the East and West Gardens of the White House in 1913. And Dumbarton Oaks in Washington DC is one of her best known projects. It was a 53 acre project, and she created about 1200 drawings and full scale mock ups for the clients to understand the various pieces of the design.

B Dang. That's a lot of work.

A Right? Especially at that time because I feel that the drawings were so much more simple. Right? Like Yeah. They didn't have the level of complexity that we do now.

E Right. And we'll Sorry. All by hand and just kind

D of Yeah. Yeah.

E More time

C consuming. It's funny because I remember you told us this story a while ago, and I was like, oh, yeah. I should check it out. But then now, like, hearing you talk about Dumberton Oaks, I've actually been looking at that because, one, I didn't realize today of how popular it is as, like, a wedding venue. My team at work is considering doing a staff retreat there. So

D Oh, really? Empty. Yeah. Wow.

C Yeah. It's just yeah.

E The gardens, they'd be great. You know? Yeah.

C It's yeah. I just I I'm putting 2 and 2 together. So

E Yes. Well, you can check out episode 6 of our show to find out more about Beatrix. Okay. Let's talk about Louise Bethune now.

B Okay.

E So Louise was called Lulu by friends and family.

B Before you get started, I have to say this one's a big deal for AIA folk.

E Yeah. Very true.

C There's a conference room named after her. There's a metal. But there's an metal too.

B With her face on it. Yeah.

E She's a big deal.

C She's a big deal.

B Yeah. She's VIP.

E Yeah. Well, Louise was called Lulu by friends and family, and she's considered to be the first female architect in the United States. She was born in 1856 in Waterloo, New York upstate, and then she grew up in Buffalo. She always wanted to be an architect, and she even got teased by a male classmate. And he told her, Lulu, girls can't be architects, which, I mean, you know, that lit a fire under her, and she was going to be an architect. So Yeah. She was planning to study architecture at Cornell, but she started working as a drafts person for an architect in Buffalo and decided to keep working and learn through that experience and access to their architectural library rather than going to school. She worked there for 5 years and then started her own firm at 25 years old, another early starter.

E And she actually married a coworker from her previous job, Robert Bethune. And not long after she opened the firm, the company became Bethune and Bethune. So the theme of our current season is partnerships and power couples and how that might have helped women in their profession or not. And we did a mini episode on the topic overall to kick off the season. So check out charrette number 4 to hear more. But one of the things that we discussed in that charrette is partnerships at the time of Louise were sort of a newer thing. Up until that point, architects were kind of like 1 man shows. You know? And so this shift to a partnership model allowed more women to be able to participate in the profession in a way that maybe was more another thing we kinda talked about is, like, when you look at the name of the firm, it's really ambiguous as to whether it's 2 men or a man and a woman.

B Yeah. I mean, I can think of so many even today, like, dynamic duos out there

C that Yep.

B Are married and that have thrived building their practice and their marriage and architecture.

E Yeah. Exactly. I think it's become very common. And so, like, that shift to partnership models with firms was, like, a huge thing for women, I think. And Louise was very much a front facing member of their firm, and she handled most of the design and the construction aspects. She specifically tried to take a variety of project types and tried not to be pigeonholed into residential projects because they were considered more domestic or female appropriate. And because of this, their range of work was really vast. They designed commercial buildings, industrial buildings, schools, public buildings, a church, and a prison.

B Nothing like a good challenge. Right?

E Yeah. It kinda seemed like she would just kind of take any work that came their way, you know, and she just wanted to kind of do it all. And there was obviously some media attention around her, and a biographer wrote about her saying, it was thought that a woman couldn't be an architect and supervise construction and wear a dress at the same time. And, yeah, I mean, she was pushing the bounds of the workplace just by working in it, let alone working with her husband and in this new partnership style firm. Well, Louise designed many projects in the Buffalo and Upstate New York area, and she also became the first female member of the AIA in 18/88. And she was a strong advocate for women joining the architecture profession and for equal pay. You can listen to episode 9 to learn more about Louisa's life and career.

B What's really cool about this story is that as the first female member of the AIA, she is now being honored in the AIA through a award that you receive after you've served on the strategic council. It used to be that if you were on the national Richard Upjohn was an early member of the AIA distinguished fellow of the institute. And once they created the strategic council, they created the equivalent of that through, the bassoon medal that you get. And so it's her face is on a medal, and you get it when you're done serving on the strategic council. And I think it's pretty cool to see the AIA recognizing their first female member that way.

E Okay. So I'm also gonna give you guys a sneak peek of a new lady who no one has heard yet. You're very special. The episode's out on March 28th, episode 48, and it's about Florence Knoll. So Florence was born in 1917 in Saginaw, Michigan. She studied architecture and eventually moved to New York City where she worked at a few firms before meeting Hans Knoll, who had a furniture company. And like I mentioned before, our season's theme is partnerships and power couples. So similar to Louise, Florence and her husband, Hans, ran this furniture company together, and it became one of the most well known corporate furniture and interior design companies of the 20th century.

E And Florence was pretty much in charge of anything creative with the company. We're talking about division of labor in a company, and she was doing a lot. But one of the most mind blowing things that I learned about when researching her was that she's the reason that we have sample swatches. You know, like, that companies have this, interior design firms have this, and also material boards. She was really the first one who was doing that, like putting actual materials onto plans and rendering so that clients would better understand the look and feel of a space. And things that are just so standard in the industry now are because of her, and I just, again, definitely made me think of workplace cultural shifts and how she was pushing forward the profession and better understanding how to communicate with clients through these techniques.

B I'm really fascinated. Like, when you all do this research to understand your architects, you're able to pull up that level of historical knowledge. That's so amazing.

C The Internet's a beautiful place.

E Yeah. No. Google's our friend. Yeah. I mean, that's I mean, luckily, we're, you know, we're pulling from resources that other people have researched very thoroughly, and, thankfully, we get to use those, like, you know, books written about these women and things like that. But, yeah, it's amazing what you can find and that we just that we don't know about. You know?

A I didn't realize that she was the one that did swatches, but I always noticed how actually in Knoll showrooms, the textiles and the swatches are displayed pretty prominently. So Yeah. That's really interesting.

C Mhmm. Yeah.

D It's all thanks to her.

E Well, you can tune in on March 28th to She Builds podcast to learn more about Florence.

C There's a lot more to this story. There's just so much more to the story.

D There's a lot. That's right.

B Okay. Last but not least, act 3, disrupting education and using podcasting as a tool. And we have none other than Jessica. Welcome to the podcast.

C Well, thank you for having me. I'm ex I'm excited to complete the trio of us She Builders being on your show.

D It's like

B a 3 course meal. You get a little taste of everything so that everybody knows why they need to head over to Shebuilds and share

E dessert, Jessica. Yeah.

C I was gonna say that means that I'm the sweetness.

E Hey. You are.

C Cool. I love it. Okay. For my act, I wanted to switch it up a little bit. Just, you know, look at it more big picture perhaps. You know, on our show, we've talked about we've talked about how women, you know, they represent these different cultures, I wanted to talk a little bit more about how these women have impacted our architectural education system. So I'm gonna use this example. So I'm gonna ask you a question, actually.

C Evelyn, Janine, while in college, did you guys study abroad? Simple question.

A I did.

B I did too.

C Where'd you guys go?

A So I went to Greece. Okay.

B Oh, that's a good place.

C Oh. Mhmm.

A Drury University, small liberal arts school in Springfield, Missouri actually requires every student that matriculates through Hammond School of Architecture to do a study abroad for graduation.

C There you go.

B And I got to go to Rome for the summer, which was amazing.

C And what what school did you go to?

B UNC Charlotte.

D Okay. Nice. Okay.

A I was I was gonna lead

C me to another thing, but okay. We're not there yet. Okay. So, Evelyn, you mentioned that it was within the curriculum. And for the both of you, I guess, it was a part of our curriculum too to study abroad. Like, we went to Florence, but we had options to go to other, programs. But I guess, what are your thoughts on the idea of studying abroad with an architectural curriculum? Like, some see it as a requirement, some, like, as a as a participant, it's like, oh, well, yeah, it's a must. Some people, they might not have the opportunity to take people who may have never been, you know,

B in North Carolina, and I think the opportunity to take people who may have never been outside of their hometown or another state or another community into a completely different culture abroad is so powerful. You get to experience life in a way that's so beyond your ability to comprehend that you you just start to understand that the the people see the world in so many different ways.

A Yeah. Yeah. I think it's even more important when we talk about, you know, kind of equity, diversity, and inclusion. Right? You talk about how all of these different perspectives really contribute differently to a beautiful Whole, but you don't really fully understand that until you step into an entirely different culture to understand how truly different the perspectives are.

B I will say the other thing that was really powerful for me is having grown up on the East Coast with historic preservation and

D Mhmm.

B Like, a major part of my childhood was going to DC and Charleston and all these historic sites on the East Coast. But going to Rome and and seeing buildings that were the length of history that those buildings had existed is so much greater than any structure in the United States that it just it was amazing just to know that, like, ground level in Rome is above where the city used to be. Like, it you would have to, like, dig down and excavate, and you can actually see parts of the city where it drops down and it exposes the older parts of Rome. It's just it's incredible.

C Yes. So I I just always think it's so interesting as architects and how and designers how important it is, and I never really thought of the beginnings of that. So the lady that I wanna mention from our show is Astrasarena. She is originally from Latvia. She is. I'm gonna I'm not gonna go too, detailed into her story because I want you guys to listen to episode 39, and it gives you a little bit of nostalgia of your time studying abroad because, she started the Rome program at the University of Washington. So, Janine, that's why I asked because I wanted to I like, for a second there, you said Rome, and I thought you were gonna say University of Washington. And I was like, woah.

C Woah. Woah. The phone, you might have met this woman because she, you know, she's she's one of our more recent ladies. But Oh, nice. But to your point, though, on our show, we love quotes. There's something about having these quotes from our women that kind of makes us learn more about them in another way, in a special way. It also gives us an opportunity to reflect a little bit on the themes that we see within our show. So going back to Astra, and it actually ties in perfectly to some of the comments that the both of you made is, you know, when she's starting this program in Rome and seeing how her students are, taking to the city and why she advocated so much for a study abroad program is that, yes, they're learning language and culture and all of these things, but also seeing the city as an artifact of history.

C So it's exactly to the same point that you make, Janine. And another quote that is tied to that is also just learning how architecture and cities are expressions of the cultures that produce them. So it takes that human aspect of, design as well. So I thought that was it's it's just one example of how I mean, I'm not gonna say that Astra disrupted education, but maybe she did by introducing this concept of not just learning classical architecture from a book or drawing or copying drawings, but actually exploring within a city, taking the architect into the city to learn about architecture in a much more tangible way. So in a way, she was like a disruptor as what you guys would call it. We usually call them just trailbasing pioneer women. But for the purpose of this show, we're gonna call them disruptors as well. This actually leads to the next lady that I wanted to talk about who is also an educator.

C She was part of our educator theme. And, I mean, Amazali Meredith, she started the art department at Virginia State College. She is this, like, African American woman that did it. But, actually, to your point I mean, yes. I was gonna talk about how this art department still exists today, but what she's also known for is that she's an educator and an architect because she did the Azeris South and the Azeris North. There are these 2 communities. One is in Virginia, and one is in Sag Harbor. Sag Harbor.

C I know it today as this boujee place that I probably can't afford to live in the Hamptons of New York. But it was actually, like, this, like, black community for, like, the rich affluent black folks to live and vacation in New York. So it's just interesting how you wouldn't think about that today. Now today, people are now recognizing it and seeing this Azarus community as a place that needs to be preserved. But it's that story that now is being told, but it wasn't at a large audience as it was before. So these are the stories that we we like to tell that it's stories that don't typically get told. And it just it makes me wonder as, you know, when we talk about disruption, we talk about all of these things of workplace culture and identity, but it's also just education at large, just of what we're learning and then how we're learning and who are we learning it from. So one of the things that, like we talked about all these, like, and how he stole things and how, like, we hear his name get, like, shoved down our throats all this time while we're in school, but we don't hear the story of Minette Da Silva and Jane Drew that if it wasn't for Jane Drew, Shandigar wouldn't have happened.

C And then I think of how they're just not telling the whole story. Okay. We all know Zaha. Right? Zaha Hadid. And at least for me, I remember learning about her work, about the Rosenthal Center For Contemporary Art Museum in Cincinnati. Does that name ring a bell? At least the it's like one of her first projects in the United States. Does that does that you guys remember that one? It's kinda cool. It's got, like, floating boxes and stuff.

C It's cool. Yeah. I mean yeah. I mean, we're fans. But what the part that they didn't tell you in school at least they didn't tell me. They didn't tell us that with that building, Zaha would be the first woman to design a museum in America. This Iraqi British woman to be the 1st woman, just woman in general, to design a museum in America.

E And that was not that long ago. Like Exactly.

D That's what shocked me.

E Like, I can't believe it.

C Yeah. Because there were firms that apply like, because she beat out SOM. She beat out all these big name firms that I'm sure probably had women partners and principles, but a woman named face

E On the door.

C Of a on the door? Mhmm. And then I think about the history. So, like, I I I remember, like, when we learned about Zaha, it was towards the end of our architectural history, of course. Right? Because we're getting more to the now. But going back to the back, to the previous, to the historical part, like, I I talk about the coupucier too much of how much I I don't like him as the architect or I don't like him as a person. And I talk about Frank Lloyd we talk about Frank Lloyd Wright, and we talk about Mies van der Rohe. And they're behind these, like, iconic buildings. But what we've learned on our show is that there's also women like Lily Reich, like Jane Drew, Mary Mahoney Griffin, Eileen Gray.

C And, actually, these were the women these were the people that actually were behind most of those iconic places. So if it wasn't for Lily, Marion, Eileen, or Jane, these projects, they just they wouldn't happen. Marion was the she did the renderings for all of most of Frank Lloyd Wright's projects. Renderings are the moneymakers. They're the money shots. They're the ones that win projects. They are the existing drawings that get left besides photographs and whatever. And then so it's just, I don't know, it got me thinking about, like, when we have those conversations of diversity and inclusion and equity, and we think about how important representation matters.

D And I'm sitting in this classroom learning about this old

C white man that did this thing and how, like, I'm just learning about the projects and, like, the projects that are cool. But, like, how much more would I feel uplifted or inspired? But, like, how much more would I feel uplifted or inspired to, like, with like, be within this profession if I knew that it was actually a woman or a woman that looks like me that actually made these projects happen or at least was involved. Like, Barcelona

D It makes me wanna go look

A at the all the authors of our history books, though. Right? Like, it's a it's a it's a much it's a much deeper

E Oh, yeah.

A Yeah. Conversation about why the stories are written the way they are written. Right?

D Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And it goes back to

E your comment about, like, the IMDB thing, Evelyn, I feel like too, because

D it's

E yeah. It it goes back to that idea of the Starkitec and, like, kind of giving one person credit for everything. Right?

B One of the things that I really appreciate about your show, you know, I don't remember my architectural history class being that exciting. And I would say what I do remember is that they spent a lot of time talking about the buildings.

C Mhmm.

B The buildings themselves, the sites, design constraints, the decision making that went into the prompt, the design. But what I don't remember hearing about was the people. And so in addition to the fact that you're bringing forward women in architecture who have built work in communities all over the world, you're also talking about the people behind these buildings, which I find really valuable and powerful. To me, I care as much, if not more, about the people who put these designs together as I do about the building because as we've demonstrated in the stories today that you've shared, what matters to those individuals really drives how they think about design, and that, to me, is what makes design really interesting.

C Yeah. I mean, our goal and, I guess, the one of the roots of our show is that it's through the power of storytelling. We want to inspire a more equitable, diverse, and inclusive profession. So telling these women's stories through this approach, we just wanna tell a story that inspires women and others to create a profession that's more inclusive. Yes. But also those that are within it, those students that are stuck in studio right now contemplating what they want or, like, is what they're doing worth it at the end? By telling the stories of the hardship and the struggles that our women have to do will help keep them propel forward. You know, we tell a lot of stories of the women when they become licensed and the the trouble that they had just to get into school or just to get into whatever program. But to see them make it and then become these powerful women behind these iconic projects.

C Yes. They might not have gotten their their store their flowers when they had the chance to smell it, but through our show, they will hear. Their stories will get told. And, you know, it it just through podcasting, I guess, podcasting is our medium to do that because we want it to be approachable. We want it to be something that you could just have in the background. On our show, it's like we're 3 friends just telling stories about these amazing women. You know? It's it's our way of disrupting these, like, old stories that have been told for however many years about these old men, but now we're gonna switch it up. We're gonna tell the whole story, the true story of the women behind it.

C And, you know, it's casual. We're not historians, but, you know, we just we just tell stories of people that of women that we think are cool.

A I think you guys are historians.

B I think you're modern historians. Like, you put a modern spin on it.

C What we do, though, is we always like, I think it was one of our like, if you think of, like, a pillar for our show is that we always thought of our show as kind of like this springboard or like this jumping off point for others to do research as well. So that if they hear our story on Zaha Hadid or on Florence Knoll, they'll be like, I never thought of that. Let me go and research more. So on our show notes, we always make sure to have like, we have a bibliography on all of our our ladies because we want others to do their own research as well. And also just thinking of it as, like, a student standpoint, like, if I'm doing an episode on Chandigarh and all I hear is Le Corbusier, but then I find out that Jane Drew was a part of it, it's like, hold up. I need to know more. And I'm sure their libraries might not have the full story on it, which is a whole other discussion, but they can use our show notes, and then they'll see that there's way more to the story of Chandigarh than just Corbusier.

B Yeah. Well, I think it's awesome what you guys are doing, and I know that if I had had this when I was a student, I would have been really much more excited to write my research paper about Mhmm. Probably a different architect than who I ended up writing about. But, also, I know that you're inspiring, the next generation and architects at all stages in their career to really, like, think about the stories even in their own communities about architects that they see and may not even recognize as as having been women on these projects.

D Yeah.

B We're thrilled that you're doing this work. So I think we're gonna land on one final question, which we do with all of our podcast episodes this season, and we'll go round robin and give you each a chance to respond. Okay. What, mic drop moment, what is one one just one idea or lesson on change needed in the practice of architecture that you'd like to pass forward to the architects, emerging professionals, and industry disruptors listening?

D Everything we've been talking about, sharing these stories, like changing the way we teach architecture and who we talk about, and how we talk about the projects, and who we include. I wish that would change, and I hope that together we're we're creating that change.

C I think one main idea I I tell this a lot when I speak to students, because it's been something that has always been prevalent in my career. But for to disrupt or an industry disruptor or to disrupt the practice of architecture, if you will, My biggest thing is don't accept the status quo. Like, just if there's something that you don't like, just change it. It I know that it's easier said than done, but there's a lot of ways that you can do it. So, like, for us, I'm not saying I didn't like my architecture education, but I saw the gaps. We saw the gaps. So through our podcast, we're filling in those gaps, and that's how we're disrupting architectural education. I don't know.

C In our own little podcast with our own little podcast, that's that's how you do it. Just one disruption at a 10. Yeah.

E Yeah. And I think similarly to that or just, I don't know, in general, kind of for young professionals being more assertive and, like, similar to what Jessica was saying about the status quo, but just kind of, you know, asking for what you need in terms of, like, what you know, if it's to learn more or, you know, like, if you can sit in on a meeting so that you can, like, better understand what's going on or, like, you need certain things for your license because that's important to you. Or, you know, I think a lot of times, we just and especially as women, it feels like we're not supposed to ask for things unless, like, the opportunity is presented. And so I think, you know, asking for what you need and being more assertive is kind of the idea that I would say. Just because I think, otherwise, the profession won't change and, like, your boss isn't gonna know that that's what you need, and so he'll just keep on doing what he's doing, you know, they are doing. Could be a woman. Mhmm.

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A Com. Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.