A Case Study on Leadership: Expanding Established Design Practices to New Locations

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is brought to you by Monograph, Arc IT, and NCARB. You'll hear more about them later in the show.

B I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, disruptors. This week's episode has been in r and d for a while. I flagged this as a possible story for our podcast after introducing these 3 remarkable leaders to each other. We're going to be sharing their stories as 3 architects working at 3 different award winning architecture firms. The twist is that they've each helped their companies launch a new office and a new geographic region. Our story starts with Amanda Loper who works for David Baker Architects, a San Francisco based practice. David Baker's office has built a reputation for multifamily housing and is well known for designing beautiful affordable housing projects.

B I met Amanda at the AIA Leadership Institute and that's when I learned she had relocated to Alabama with her family and was helping to set up the DBA Birmingham office. Since launching, she's been designing what she calls small but mighty acts of urbanism and is bringing a modern approach to the southeast. In 2021, she received the young architects award for her work in design policy and bringing social awareness to issues of housing and density and urban settings. Summer McEnany has been working with Kone Architecture, a Seattle based practice since 2016. She reached out to me pre pandemic to discuss helping Kone expand to North Carolina. She's now the managing principal of their Charlotte office, which opened in 2021. Kone found a niche in helping to address Seattle's urgent need for more housing and Summer is helping to bring that expertise to the Carolinas. Since relocating, Summer has successfully worked remotely across time zones with her Seattle based team while also setting up her office and hiring her first employee.

B The 3rd player in our story is Abigail Hammond of BRIC, an Oakland based practice. During the pandemic, she relocated to her hometown of Boston and in planning for the move, she and the BRIC team immediately recognized an opportunity for the firm to expand to the East Coast. Brick is well known for commercial and life science projects as well as multifamily and higher ed work. And actually, they're one of my clients. Abigail has led the team in not only setting up an office and hiring a team, but is also winning new local projects. Abigail and I work together in San Francisco, so we go way back.

A What's interesting to me is that all these are mid career women, and it's probably worth noting that 2 of them are mothers. As a leadership case study, there's a lot to discuss within this episode. Clearly, there's a bigger story about the value of recognizing talent within your studio and investing in those leaders to help you build and expand your practice. So let's jump into it.

B So we always start by asking our guests to tell us a little bit about themselves. And since there's 3 guests, I wanna make sure that we differentiate the voices that are speaking. So, Amanda, let's start with you. Tell us who you are and tell us a little bit about, your firm or your transition over to Birmingham.

C Yeah. Hi. My name is Amanda Loper with David Baker Architects, and I was in, San Francisco for 11 years right out of college. I wanted to sell my car and live the urban life. I love my Alabama roots, but was ready to fly elsewhere. And my first real job was with David Baker Architects, so it just, you know, kept working until, let's see, in 2014, I became a principal. And, again, Amanda, as the architect, I felt like I had arrived. I loved our work.

C I loved our culture. I love San Francisco. Had baby number 1 in 2013. She lived in a closet for a while, and it totally worked. And then baby number 2 came around in 2016, and I had convinced myself it was also gonna work. We just needed to, you know, be smarter about how we lived in our 1 bedroom. She was home for about 3 days, and I had just kind of that really deep realization that it just wasn't gonna work. And after coming to grips with realizing that San Francisco wasn't the best for the family as a unit anymore, I took David Baker out to coffee, cried for about 2 hours, and told him I felt like we needed to move for all the reasons.

C And, I mean, to his credit, he was like, well, maybe this is the future. Maybe, you know, at worst, we can wean off each other, but at best, maybe this is we're gonna be a national practice, and you can start an office there. So and that was in 2016 when we moved, so it's been a little more than 5 years. We now have, 8 people in the office and are developing our own office building with, some other tenants and are gonna move into our 1st brick and mortar, hopefully next month. So I pinch myself every day. I feel like I am getting to have my cake and eat it too.

B That's such a wonderful story and so cool to hear, you know, just like the personal exchange between you and David about trying to figure this out. Summer, I'm gonna jump to you next. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Kone, and your transition over to North Carolina.

D Awesome. Hi, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Thank you both so much for having us on today. I'm Summer McEnany, and I'm a principal at Cone Architecture, based in Seattle, Washington. I currently lead our satellite office, which we affectionately call Cone Carolina, here in Charlotte, North Carolina. My story is pretty similar to Amanda's. I graduated in 2010, sort of in the middle of the the economic downturn, and my boyfriend, now husband, and I understood that, you know, no matter where we were, job opportunities might be scarce, so we just decided to to go somewhere that would make us happy.

D And that place was Seattle, and, we lived there for 10 years. We loved every second of it, and, it was really foundational to the people that we are today. And, around 20 18, when my second niece was born, we really started to feel the pull back home. Both of our families were all still here, and it was just becoming more challenging to be away from everybody. So in January of 2020 of all years, I decided to, start the year fresh with an honest conversation with Tim and Greg, the owners, and just sort of be, straightforward about the fact that we we felt we needed to be back home. And, you know, what I thought was gonna be a a really challenging conversation about leaving a place I loved and a group of people that I loved, you know, actually turned into a conversation about opportunity. And my big takeaway from that moment is the trust that they immediately had in me to consider staying connected and opening a satellite office. You know, finding a group of people who believe in you unconditionally is is totally priceless.

D So that's sort of where my story begins.

B Thank you, Summer. Thanks for sharing your journey, and I wanna jump also to Abigail so she can share a little bit about her transition from the Bay Area to Boston.

E Hi, everyone. I've really been looking forward to this conversation with the with the 5 of us. Just I see so many similarities already in the stories between the 3 of us, so it's just really interesting to talk to you all. But yeah. So I have quite a lot of similarities in my story to both Amanda's and Summer's. I also graduated from school in 2010, and there weren't a lot of opportunities. So, when I graduated, there wasn't a single person in my class who had a job. So I decided to move, to San Francisco for the same reasons that Summer moved to Seattle just for, you know, life experience and to try it out.

E And then I ended up staying there for 10 years. I worked at a variety of different architecture firms, including where Janine and I were colleagues. And I worked in a bunch of different project types. And then in, let's see, February of 2020, right before the pandemic hit, I had taken a new job at Brick. And I just started. I was really excited. I'd been going into the office for about a month, and then COVID hit and everybody went home. And, I had a toddler at the time who was sent home from day care, so my husband and I were both working from home and trying to take care of our daughter at the same time.

E And then I got pregnant with my second daughter, and we were really realizing that it was gonna be unmanageable. It was already feeling, pretty unmanageable to work with 1 kid home, and the idea of trying to do that with 2 kids home and no childcare support just seemed really impossible. And my husband and I are both ambitious and really wanted to continue to focus on our careers. So we decided to move back to Boston to be closer with my parents. We actually moved in with my parents for the first couple months that we were here. So that was, an interesting challenge as well, but it enabled us to really get the support that we needed and the closeness to family that we'd really been missing. So, actually, my kids, it's we had a snowstorm last night, and my kids are home from school right now, and my parents are watching them in the other room. So if we hadn't moved home, there's a lot of things I wouldn't be able to do.

E So, basically, I had just started this job, and I approached I was really nervous about the conversation. I approached Rob, the founding principal of Brick, and I really kinda hit him with this it was a triple whammy. I was like, you know, I'm pregnant again, and I'm moving to Boston because I need to be closer to my family. And would you be interested in talking about the possibility for brick expanding to Boston? And I was pretty new at the company. And so the fact that he was open to that conversation was really remarkable. But Brick as a company and Rob particularly have a really sort of entrepreneurial say yes spirit, and immediately, he was like, yeah. Let's do it. So it was really nice to get that reaction because it would have been easy for him to say, like, it's been great knowing you, but, it it I think he really saw the opportunity.

E And so we kinda put a pin in it until I moved and had the baby and went on maternity leave, and then I came back from maternity leave late spring this year, and we really just kind of started kicking off the office then. And things have moved really fast. We're, we're moving into our office space in downtown Boston. We're finishing up a TI on the space. We've hired a couple staff members, and we've gotten a couple jobs already. So there's a lot of opportunity in Boston, and I think together, we were really able to see this sort of win win proposal that this meant. So, yeah, that's my story.

A It's so inspiring to hear all of you, and and thank you for kind of the humanity of how hard that initial conversation with your principals and partners were. So, Abigail, you obviously were very new and still suggested and recommended the remote satellite location. Amanda and Summer, did you go into that conversation at all thinking that you could do the remote? Was that that was that part of your initial thought at all, or or you just thought you had to move on from the firm at that point?

C I think for me, it was a question. I think I hoped I dared hoped that that could be the future, but, honestly, it felt so impossible and at that time, unprecedented, because it was before the pandemic. You know, I mean, now I feel like people say that we were working remote before it was cool. But, yeah, I mean, if so I didn't know what to think, but I hope that could be the outcome. But I also the reason it was so heavy was I felt like I was gonna, like, give up on, again, so many things that Amanda, the architect, the kind of personal you know, the person I am was loving, but felt like I had to kinda let all

E that go.

D Yeah. I'd echo a lot of what Amanda said. It it did not feel like a possibility at the time. Again, it was pre pandemic, and, you know, we all learned in a very short amount of time how to work remotely together, and that, you know, that was sort of coinciding with my conversations with Tim and Greg about how how we could proceed with this. And our conversations started with an initial buy in, an initial all in from Tim and Greg, but followed with a lot of sort of biweekly conversations, a lot of research about the area and whether opening a satellite office here, you know, aligned with the work we do and if it made sense. And so it it was something that evolved out of our conversations and and wasn't necessarily how I went into the conversation initially. I thought it would be a a parting of ways and was thrilled when it that is not the path that it took.

C Yeah. Another thing for us on that research bit, Summer, it took I feel like David Baker, to use Abigail's cool term, has that entrepreneurial say yes spirit. And some of the partners at the time were like, where where is Birmingham, Mississippi, Georgia? And we called our business consultant who works with firms all over the country, and we were like, hey. We're thinking about doing this. Is this crazy? And much to our surprise, he was like, 6 of my clients in the last year have done exactly this where a principle is needed to move for a personal reason. And he really helped kind of make it not seem as a radical idea, with kind of that industry based research, but I have to imagine, like, stories like yours, Abigail, have only increased the trend, through COVID.

A Abigail, it sounded like you came to the conversation with the idea of expanding. Right? You just joined this new firm and you expanded. So was there anything in your own background that kind of initiated that particular entrepreneur spirit?

E You know, I'm not sure if it was something in my own background. I think in some ways, it was a little bit like I was so new at Brick, and I didn't have I mean, I was invested, but I didn't have as much invested as if I'd been living and working there for years. And so I kind of was like, well, it can't hurt to ask. Right? You know? And all he can do or all they can do is say no. Also, I just think that the way that the company is and the way that Rob, the founder, is gave me the curt like, the courage to bring. You know? And, actually, I'm trying to remember. Like, I came to the conversation with this in mind and wanting to suggest it. But I think that Rob's mind went there right away when I started talking about moving as well because that's just kind of how he is.

E And so I think that made it easier was that he seemed really open to it. And and and then the other thing is, you know, having I was talking to friends and family about it. And, Janine, I think we might have talked about it before. And, Janine, it's just been really encouraging of me and my career and and giving me the courage to do things that I might not have had to do if I if I'd had hadn't had the support of other people kind of pushing me and and giving me that that encouragement. And then I think the last thing is just really sort of a lucky coincidence is that Boston is kind of the perfect market for Brick to have expanded to. We, you know, things are really booming here in exactly the markets that we work in in the Bay Area and the approach to building and just there's a lot of similarities between the market kind of, kind of knowledge to encourage me to make the suggestion.

B I'm glad you brought that up. I I definitely wanna talk about each of your visions for your offices because you are representing 3 very different geographic locations with different needs and different, cultures. So tell me a little bit more about how you maybe initially were thinking about the jump, and then how are you thinking about the expansion now?

C So when we realized we were gonna do this crazy thing, I immediately took as many smart people as I could out to lunch and coffee and was basically, like, what should I do? What do you think about this?

A Can I just love the fact that, like, you start all your conversations by taking everyone out to coffee?

C It's true. Or depending on the time of day, we could go drinks. Some of the best working meetings happen over wine at, like, 3 or 4. Just saying. But yes. So over coffee, I did data research. I took out, like, EB Men of she used to have Minday. Now she's just her own.

C But at that time, she had this firm with, you know, somebody else across the country. Yosha Sotto, who's David Baker's wife, who's just brilliant, wise, She's worked in PR in the architecture industry for decades, and she's overall a golden person. And she said, Amanda, you need a business coach. Like, you can't come down there and do it yourself. You need support. And I never would have thought had that thought or had the audacity to invest in myself in that way if somebody like Yosch hadn't mentioned that, and I will give a shout out to my business coach, Maya Sharfie, because she specializes in women in the architecture industry. And with working with her, I developed kind of the vision for Birmingham and what it's basically become. So Birmingham is a market that is not like San Francisco.

C It has an opposite problem. It has, like, not enough people and too much land, whereas San Francisco has lots of people and not enough land. And so what kind of where we've landed is that in Birmingham, we do relationship bay based kind of boutique projects that can have impact, and we're learning that we can actually develop here, so that's something I want to do more of. It's actually a dream I had in San Francisco, but, like, seemed like a pipe dream. So, you know, we're really kind of, again, focusing on, like, relationship and impact, Like and it's not really the kind of types of work we do, which we do a lot of, you know, housing, big scale, master planning, stuff like that. We've got some of that in Birmingham, but most of it is this more, like, boutique scale. And then we realized that markets like Nashville and Atlanta are dealing with the issues that we are well versed in from the Bay Area with population growth, how to prevent gentrification, livable density, all those things. And so we kind of have this home base, this grounding bit of these relationship projects in Birmingham, but then we work in cities where we have good relationships with both clients and local architect partners to leverage more of our expertise in multifamily and mixed use infill.

D That's awesome. And, I'll just tag on to that by saying that early on in my process, I spoke with both Janine and Amanda. Janine connected us, and those are 2 of the smart women that I was, able to connect with and get some advice on my next steps from. But, I would say our our broad vision for our office in this market is is simply to be, you know, part of the smart growth of our city and our region. We're kind of just starting starting there. It's really exciting to be here, setting up here when the, you know, Charlotte 2040 plan is nearing implementation. We've got a new, you know, unified development ordinance hitting this year. And so it's just really exciting to be sort of part of the onset of all of that and bring all of the learning that we, you know, have done in Seattle with very similar code implementation surrounding, you know, transit oriented development and affordable housing and, you know, 10 minute neighborhoods, all those things that, you know, we we've grown to feel are, you know, very critical to an urban environment.

D Excited to see both the city prioritizing that and to be here and be able to participate in the implementation of that. So where we currently stand, I don't think I mentioned it before, is that we, established our office space last summer and, hired my first employee. And so we are still sort of laying down roots. We're in the discovery phase here, and, I've been working on sort of setting incremental milestones for us and celebrating sort of the small steps towards those larger steps. One thing I've found is that, celebrating those incremental goals is really helpful because sometimes it it can feel like you're not making as much progress as you'd like, and it's not happening as quick as you'd like. And so celebrating and recognizing those small steps is is really great.

A Let's take a break from this conversation to talk about our sponsor of this episode, Monograph. We're proud to partner with Monograph because they are helping to transform the practice of architecture, one design studio at a time.

B Tired of using dated and clunky software to manage your firm? Or do you feel frustrated wrangling all of your spreadsheets to get a clear view of where your project stands today. Monograph is here to help.

A Designed by architects for architects, Monograph allows you to track your time, your projects, and your budgets in real time. With our awesome MoneyGantt, you can immediately understand project performance across your entire firm portfolio.

B Need to adjust your projects week to week? Their new tool, Resource, allows you to reallocate your team's time and track its impact on your remaining budget.

A Be proactive with Monograph. Our friends at Arc IT are helping architecture firms with their technology solutions, including fighting back against ransomware and cybersecurity attacks. They recently told us about 1 San Francisco based design firm they helped who had 3 ransomware attacks in a span of 6 months. Their latest hit took their generic IT provider over 7 days to recover the data.

B Yikes. Imagine not having access to your project data for over 7 days. For a midsized firm of 40 people, that's a lot of people not having the ability to do work on their projects.

A Cyberattacks are a growing challenge in the hybrid world, and they are costly. The firm leadership estimated that the pure financial cost of the business was just over a100 k, not accounting for the tremendous mental pressure the team experienced during the attack and subsequent recovery. However, it's important to mention that proactive architecture firms can get ahead of these type of technology threats.

B As you consider your technology infrastructure needs for your business, be sure to check out Arc IT. They're a trusted IT provider who is in the business of helping architecture firms, and they offer tailored solutions for design studios, small, midsize, and large.

A Arc IT is offering a free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment to help you determine how secure your business is. During the assessment, Arc IT will help you identify your top three highest risk areas in your business.

B Speaking of risks, Arc IT is also sharing some helpful tips with practice disrupted listeners that you can implement tomorrow to ensure your business is secure from cyber security threats. Their latest tip is to use different passwords for every service and use a password manager such as LastPass

A to keep track of them.

B Tune in next week to hear the next tip from Arc IT. To take your security solutions further, contact Arc IT at www.getarkit

C dotcom/pd

B to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions for your design firm. Hi, disruptors. Janine here. If you're like me and have a lot of ideas about how to improve the profession of architecture, well, I've got good news for you. Here's your chance. Incarb wants to hear from you. Their ongoing analysis of practice study is your opportunity to shape the future of architecture. Share your experiences and insights from working in architecture, and tell NCARB what you wish they would do better.

B Your feedback will help guide changes to the national experience and examination programs for architects and impact what being a licensed architect could look like. Whether you're an architect or you work with architects, Incarb wants to hear from you. Make sure your voice is heard. Contribute to the analysis of practice study today. Open a new browser tab and sign up at encarb.org/a0p. That's incarb.org/a0p. Okay. I'll wait.

B Go pull up a browser incarb.org/a0p. That's incarb.org/a0p.

A I wanna go back to something Amanda mentioned about and I realize you are all 3 kind of in very different stages, having started satellite offices. But, Amanda, you know, you were talking about being remote before remote was cool. Pre pandemic summer, you also were doing that kind of remote thing pre pandemic. So what has that connection been like back to the home base, I guess, if you will? And we talked about your own vision and value, but also how has the culture from the original firm kind of been extended into these new satellite offices?

E For me, I guess the talking about the kind of match between the market in the Bay Area and the market in Boston was kind of an easy place to start with the planning for the Boston office. And, you know, one of the biggest areas that we've been working in in the Bay Area increasingly, and I think kind of all over the country is really booming, but it's life science. And so BRIC has, you know, a lot been doing increasingly a lot of our commercial work has been going life science in the Bay Area. So that's become an area of expertise for us. And Boston is really, like, the biggest market for life science in the country. So that's kind of where we're putting our initial focus is to kind of take that increasing expertise in life science, which is, like, developer driven core and shell life science buildings and then also lab and commercial interiors and kind of starting from there. But I think the long term plan for the office is to be a diversified practice, and that matches with, you know, the focus of the Oakland office. So we kind of really work in these 3 buckets that are commercial life science, which we'll call 1 bucket, and then multifamily housing, and then university, and specifically community college work.

E And those are the kinds of projects that we want to develop the same kind of diversified practice in Boston. And, really, all of those markets are are really viable in Boston. I mean, Boston has a lot of the same housing problems that the Bay Area has. And I have a background working in in affordable housing, and so that's an area that I'm particularly really interested in, and it's also, you know, something that I see going on in the city. And then also universities, of course, in Boston and the Northeast are really, big potential areas of projects for us. Although, I think those are kind of the institutional projects and the university projects, I think, are, like, a longer path to start to get that work. They're much more kind of, like, working on developing long term relationships. So I think we're laying the groundwork for that, and we're starting to sow the seeds with relationships.

E But I think those are probably things that will maybe take longer to bear fruit, but we're really looking at that in the future. And then the last thing, this is sort of more on a personal note than the office, but I think it's really related is I was appointed to the planning board in my hometown. So, I grew up and live in Watertown, Massachusetts, which is, like, a first ring suburb outside of Boston, and I'm on the planning board now, which for me is just it's really interesting to be involved sort of on that municipal side, but also to be able to, sort of, help shape the discussion. Water tons in kind of a big boom moment with lots of life science going on, men, lots of commercial development. And so to be able to be involved in how my hometown is developing at this really pivotal stage has just been really exciting, and I think it's good for me to get that perspective when I'm also shaping the office sort of on the other side of the table as an architect. So

D I'll jump in. We we very much see ourselves as still all one cone group. We've got 2 of us here in Charlotte and 16 in Seattle, and we, you know, over the last 2 years, have really focused on, you know, both through our work and, you know, outside of work and culturally staying connected as much as possible. And Haley and I have gone out to visit Seattle, a number of times since, she started, and we you know, culturally, we sort of see ourselves as, you know, all one group, and we really sort of operate that way still. We work on Seattle projects, and the Seattle team will work on southeast projects as the need arises. So that's sort of how we've approached it is is maintaining as much connection as possible.

C Yeah. We've taken a similar approach. It was a little intense for the 1st year. I think I was so desperate to make sure that it worked. My newborn and I went out there, like, once a month. It was crazy. In hindsight, I would have slapped myself and been like, girl, what are you thinking? But I do think it, like, helped maintain the connection in that very kind of critical time of, are we sure this is gonna work? And then from there, I tapered off to like every 6 to 8 weeks by myself once the kids got a little older, which which also was hard. And COVID, honestly, in that respect, has been a great liberator in that I think, you know, it it doesn't matter anymore that I go over there in, like, in that kind of rhythm.

C It it's more it can be, like, twice a year or 3 or maybe even 4 times a year. So there's been some relief at least for me around that bit. But like you, Summer, I think the culture has been something that we have prioritized because I'm I was very much not interested in starting, you know, something else. Like, the the whole reason to do this was to extend this DNA that I've fallen in love with that, you know, probably the projects need to adapt and approach needs to adapt due to the super different context, but that the culture is really the thing that's kept us all there for so long. And so we do, we kind of invest when new folks come into the Birmingham office. We have them go to San Francisco for, honestly, as long as they can handle it, like, you know, everything from kind of 2 months to a month immersion. And then we also do twice a year rhythms. You know, we get everybody out for the holiday party, and then we also either go to the Monterey Design Conference together or in the off years like this year, we just did a big camping trip And things like that, I think, are so important to kind of, you know, help it when you're remote on the other side of the country, 2 or 3 hours difference.

C You can get your headset on and feel like you call somebody that you know. Yeah.

E I think our plan is probably to I mean, we're still working it out, but definitely to take a similar approach. We're actually trying to not even use the term satellite office because we want to make sure that it's really thought of as to just 2 offices of the same company. But given that we're started all of this during COVID, I actually haven't been back to the Bay Area since we started this thing, so everything has been remote. And I had a plan to go out with my family for the holiday party and to see everybody and all be together, and then it was right during Omicron, and so we canceled, which was just like, that was such a bummer. But I think once sort of travel becomes easier, there is an idea about having people come back and forth and spend more time together. But I do think that during the pandemic, we've all really learned how effectively you can work remotely. I mean, it certainly has its challenges, and I miss being around people every day. I'm excited to go back into the office once, you know, we get up and running.

E We're waiting for our desks to arrive because everything's back ordered. But but, you know, being together in person is something that you can't replace, but I think that it doesn't feel like the culture has stalled out just because we're remote. But I think it's sort of the same approach where we wanna keep the culture unified and do a lot of sort of cross office pollination.

C I think it also that approach helps with client service. Right? Like like, when you somebody, you know, in Birmingham or Boston, you know, goes to hire you, like, you know, you can say you've got the expertise of the whole firm. You know, we just happen to work in a different time zone, and it does allow you to kind of put the right people at the right project based on lots of different things around areas of expertise or geography.

D I have a lot of reflections on the unexpected challenges piece because it it sort of ties in with what we were just talking about with, as Amanda said, extending the DNA of the firm to the new office because I think that's a great analogy for how we've perceived it. You are sort of the cultural representative of your company in the new office, and the amount of work it takes to wear all the hats in that space is something that you know going into it, but don't quite have a sense of exactly how much time and effort it's gonna take. You know, you're you're responsible for the the vibe in the office, the comfort of the office, the supplies, decorating for holidays, making sure that you get out in the community and engage with, you know, the architecture community and the the community at large. You know, you're you are sort of the person who who sets the tone of the space, and that's sort of been a a big thing for me is, you know, leading within a space that's already defined is one thing, but defining a space and then leading it is a whole another thing. And so just all all of the pieces that come along with that, have been, you know, really a challenge to me as a leader and sort of thinking about leadership in different ways and and culture in different ways. It also makes you, you know, sort of more aware of any, you know, unhealthy work habits that you have because you're the one in that space setting examples. I'm still working on this one. Can't say I've completely cracked it.

D But, you know, if you're overworking, if you don't take lunch breaks, if, you know, you're you have any sort of, you know, bad patterns, that, you know, may have been frequent at your last office, but you don't wanna set that, you know, new standard for the employees you're bringing into the space. You know, you just think twice about how everything is perceived.

C Oh, man, Summer. I feel like, I'm gonna be thinking about that all weekend. You're so right. It's so hard to break those bad habits. And when you have all the hats, it's hard. It there's, like, not enough hours in the day. For me, the kind of unexpected things or the challenges I think I faced were, I mean, a, just, I think, loneliness, you know, especially in those first years when I didn't have a lot of people, like, here in the office in Birmingham and just feeling disconnected and realizing how much life that I got from working with my colleagues and how much I just genuinely have grown to love them, respect them. And even though I'm technically capable of designing alone, like, I don't want to.

C It's not as fun. And I and I do think you get better results. You know? And so I think that was something I really had to kind of put tools in place to whenever I was feeling down or disconnected just to, like, really train myself to pick up the phone and to always have your camera on. And if somebody doesn't have a camera on, ask them to turn your camera on so that you can kinda get that kinda connection. So I just realized how important that was. Another thing that was really tough for me was, you know, like, Summer and Abigail, y'all both moved to these okay. Let's see. Let's let's just go with thriving, growing cities.

C Right? Birmingham is incredible. It has opportunity. It's like you can smell it in the air. It's palpable. It has a really complex history, but one of the issues it does not have right now is population growth. And so I think, you know, for a company that specializes in housing and affordable housing and master planning and cities more like Boston and Chicago, like those issues, that that was, like, really tough. And so that's when I had to kind of face the music. But, again, it also brought me tons of peace.

C Like, because I think I was forcing trying to I was kinda stressing to force Birmingham into something it wasn't. You know? Like, I was trying to get it to yield the projects that I felt like we needed to do, and I just realized, like, you can't push this market. Like, it is what it is. And so when I let that go, it was the beginning of last year and moved to that more model of, like, we will do the projects that come to us organically in Birmingham, but we will hustle more in the areas of our expertise. That was a really pivotal shift for me mentally, and I think the opportunity seemed to kind of flow once I, like, understood kind of those 2 pipelines. I think another thing I wanted to add is to, like, finding talent has been really tough. So, again, more in the early days when people were like, who are you? Who's David Baker Architects? You know, like, we didn't have a reputation. I think people in Birmingham tend to kinda stick with what they know, and we just, you know, peep we were unknown.

C Right? And so I it was hard to kind of cold find new folks. Like, I'd put job board postings on the job boards, and there wouldn't be a ton of activity. So I really had to pivot to, again, a more kind of relational, recruiting model. But also since then, I've done some teaching at Auburn and Mississippi State, and that has really helped in that way. And then now that we've had some things actually built, people know us. But it's still been really tough to make sure that we can recruit folks that are, again, like housing nerds, as I would call them, because that's what we are. So that's a challenge we're continuing to kind of deal with today.

E Yeah. I'd say that we're I mean, even in Boston, which is a bigger city, like, recruiting is really a hard thing right now. I mean, I think hiring is challenging for everybody, but, so that's something that we've been struggling with a little bit as well. One thing that I found challenging, and this is sort of just more on maybe a personal level, but I think that it's the amount of autonomy and sort of rope that this opportunity has given me. It's given me opportunity to make decisions myself about the direction that we're going and being involved in every discussion about strategy and about the priorities and about the space and about, you know, everything. And and for me in my career, I haven't always been given that opportunity. I wanted to be in the room for those discussions, but I feel like oftentimes the message that I got in earlier parts of my career was, like, you know, you have to wait, you have to pay your dues, you have to take direction from the top. And I feel like it was always I was in positions where, you know, culture was being handed down, decisions were being handed down.

E And then all of a sudden, this opportunity really shifted that for me, and it was a really quick shift. So to be all of a sudden in a position where I had a lot of authority to make decisions I hadn't made before was scary, and it's been going out on a limb a little bit for me. And I feel like I've realized I have to just, like, really trust my instincts, and I have to take, you know, ask people for their opinions, ask everybody for their opinions, ask for feedback and encouragement, but then I also have to find a way to make things my own and feel authentic and personal for me. So, the business development aspect of the office is really, you know, a a big shift for me to be responsible for such a big aspect of business development. And, you know, everybody has advice about how to do business development. Right? And I'm getting lots of really, really useful feedback from people, but then I also have to find a way to make that process my own and make it feel like it's me that's doing it and I'm doing it in an authentic way for myself and representing the company properly. And so a lot of that has just been like trusting my instincts and just kind of like putting myself in situations that are uncomfortable and trying things out. So that that's been one of the biggest challenges for me, but it's also felt like a really big growth moment as well.

D I am completely with you. That has been sort of the biggest, like, you know, pushing myself outside of my comfort zone is understanding that, like, you you are the decision maker in this space. You are the the representative of your firm, and you're responsible getting out there and winning work for your firm. And those are all, you know, to me, based in a mutual trust with the leadership in the home office, you know, the their trust in you to, you know, be that decision maker, be the the voice of your firm, you know, be the one to get out there and advocate for yourself. And one thing that I've done outside of what you mentioned, Abigail, which is just consulting with people, getting as much, you know, conversation and and information as possible, but, also just informing myself as much as possible at every turn, particularly around the idea of winning work, you know, spending so much time learning the ropes, researching what's going on around here. You know, where is work happening? Who's doing the work? Who's on city council? What are they voting on right now? And just being ready, you know, for those opportunities being, you know, able to hit the ground, you know, in that exact moment as soon as an opportunity hits.

E So I'll just say that, you know, I I said earlier that some of this stuff that's part of what I'm doing here is is really new to me compared to roles that I've had previously. And one thing that Brick has done, which has just been incredibly helpful to me, is they've provided me with a business development coach. And so I have somebody who I have weekly meetings with, and it sounds like, Amanda was saying that she has a business coach as well. And for me, that kind of support has been incredibly helpful because it's somebody that I can talk to. I can share my concerns. I can, you know, talk through questions that I have with her. I don't have to feel like I need to know all the answers, and she's provided a lot of support in coaching me how how to do the aspects of this job that are different than things that I've done before. So especially kind of the non project aspects of leading an office are pretty new to me.

E And so just having that coaching has been a level of support that I've found incredibly valuable. And I really think that that should be the case for anytime you sort of take on a new role. It would be really nice if firms provided coaching support to help people kind of get comfortable with those new aspects of their job.

B Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think, yeah, the idea of coaching might be I I feel like there were business coaches previously, but I feel like the the expansion of it is a little bit more prominent in our culture than it used to be. I think coaching is for anybody at any point in their career and just, you know, it's so nice to have somebody else that allows you to voice your concerns and your ideas and then get real time feedback.

A I think you've given a lot of great advice when it comes to even asking the question and and the challenges that you have faced in kind of building out I don't wanna call them all satellite offices now because a few of you are trying to actually avoid that term. You know, is there anything that we haven't touched upon or any, you know, any additional advice that you would give to others who are contemplating if they should leave their firm to move where they want to live or or have or, you know, have even taken their approach that, you know, they would like to kind of be that person to take the firm into new geography.

C Yeah. I would say ask. And, I mean, Abigail put it so well. You know, the worst they can say is no. But I think the risk of not asking is so much greater than hearing the no. I mean, because I think about this all the time, like, you know, I mean, we have a house with a porch, and I feel like I get to, like, see my kids thrive, but I also get to do work that is invigorating and impactful and purposeful. And I think if, you know, without having even thought about this idea, like, that life wouldn't have been possible. Kind of one part of me would have had to suffer, it felt like.

C So and I think too I do think we're seeing our stories modeled so much more, but I would also just encourage folks, like, to dream about alternate models to use your training. I mean, architectural training is just so incredible. I mean, I know we think we can do everything, but I truly believe that we kind of almost can or we know who to call to figure out how to get it done. And so I would just encourage people to kind of design your own career path and to kind of do research. Ask is there somebody else in the world. Like, maybe I haven't seen it in my own, hometown, but, like, are there other people that have a career path that, you know, I wanna model? So I I would say go for it.

E I would say also now is a good time for that because people are looking all architecture firms mostly are hiring and are looking for people, and it's a little bit of a, I don't know. Is it a buyer's market or a seller's market? I don't know. A job hunter's market, we'll call it. And so I think that firms may be more open to discussions about sort of nontraditional models right now because people are really wanting to hold on to the good staff they have and are looking for new good staff. So take advantage of the opportunity.

A So the closing question that we ask all of our guests is, you know, as practicing architects and firm leaders, what is one main idea or lesson or change needed in the practice of architecture that you'd like to pass forward to the architects, emerging professionals, and industry disruptors listening?

C Okay, Evelyn. I feel like that was a zinger.

A It's on the prep sheet.

B This is your mic drop moment. Bring it.

C I mean, I think the thing that first comes to mind is, I mean, there's a lot of things that need to change that I feel are in motion. You know, I feel right now people, you know, ironically, we've all been talking about how hard it was for us to find agency to kind of ask to do something audacious. But, I mean, what I see in our firm are really engaged young people who care very much about having an equitable practice, you know, both internally and externally. I feel like people have found a voice throughout this profession regardless of their position to speak. And I think there's it's palpable in the air. There's momentum, and and I think there's an appetite for change. And I think just as, you know, our generation and the ones below us continue to kind of rise into places of influence, I would say to folks to keep speaking. You know, talk to your project managers, talk to your principals because your perspective is so different than one of a principal.

C I mean, I joke that sometimes I feel like I've become like a curmudgeonly old dude, you know, because being an owner, your your your mentality does change because you just have new things to worry about. And we really lean on the folks at our office that are not burdened by that stuff to say, hey. We should think about making a change here. So I would just wanna continue to empower folks to speak up, to change, you know, project team culture, firm culture, you know, hiring. I mean, we've just we've got this great group in the office that continues to just push us forward, and it's something we wanna do. But, again, like, we're so consumed with lots of things that it has been such an asset to have folks inside the office kind of continuing to push to make sure that we're continuing to be, like, as inclusive as we possibly can.

D We have talked a lot today about the past that we've paved for ourselves and, you know, how it's expanded, what we thought our careers could be in really fulfilling ways. And key element of that to me was the the trust that came from the firm owners. So when I think about, you know, how I would like to see the industry evolve, which there are a million different things, but just to focus in on one, you know, one element of my job that I've really grown to love and, in fact, think is almost more important than anything else I do is mentoring. And, you know, when you move into a leadership position in your firm, you spend a lot less time thinking about yourself and more time thinking about everyone else and what kind of community and work experience you're helping to shape for them. And, you know, an unclear career path for growth is, you know, one of the main causes leading to burnout with a lot of architects, like, just not knowing what lies ahead for them. And the advice I would give is, you know, as as you yourself move forward, you know, you should always be looking behind you and bringing everyone else with you and helping to uplift their careers at the same time, and I think that happens through a lot of mutual trust. That would be my advice.

E Yeah. I I mean, I couldn't agree more, Summer. I think that I mean, Janine knows that mentorship is something that we've been talking about a lot at. Brick. Janine is helping us develop a mentoring, a sort of more formal mentoring program in the office. So it's been a big topic of conversation, and I think that that's something that I think about a lot as well. You know, how can I share my experiences with people coming up in the firm or in the industry whether or not they're in my firm? Sometimes it is easier to be mentored by somebody outside your firm as well. But, you know, sharing experiences.

E And for me, I think one of the things has to do with, you know, vulnerability and and being honest about things. And so being honest about the struggles, being honest about times when you made a mistake or didn't, you know, know what you were doing. Because one of the things that I really had a hard time with coming up in architecture was the amount of things that you need to know to be good at this job. You know, there's just this sort of endless pool of knowledge that seems like it's expected of people, technical knowledge, management knowledge, financial knowledge, schedules, client management, you know, communications, cultural things. There's just so much that you need to know to be an architect, and I think that's one of the things that we all probably like about it, is that a lot of architects are really, sort of generalist and well rounded people and like that multifaceted aspect. But I just remember feeling like, how could somebody ever know all of these things? And even in the technical realm, the amount of technical knowledge that you needed just seemed overwhelming at first. And so I think it's important to remember, you know, speaking to somebody, you know, an emerging professional is that you're never gonna know everything. This is a career that's about constant growth.

E You never get to the point where you're like, I'm an expert, and now I'm done. Every project, everything you do involves a new level of learning. And so don't feel overwhelmed by the amount of things that you need to learn, and don't feel that the people in leadership necessarily know everything either. Because for me, that was really hard. I felt like I didn't I always felt like I was missing some aspect of knowledge that I didn't have, and it took me a long time to realize that it's, you know, how much of a process it is. But then I think on the flip side of that, speaking to firm leadership, I think it's also really important to listen to younger people in the firm and listen to junior people in the firm because I think sometimes there's this feeling that if people don't know enough or they don't have, you know, 15 years of experience that they don't have something valuable to offer. And I just in our practice every day, we see fabulous ideas coming out of people who've, you know, just started their first job out of school and, you know, great design ideas, great ideas for firm culture activities. And I think that giving a voice to young people in the firm is really important because their ideas are just as valuable and sometimes fresher than ideas that are coming from the sort of people that have been in in the industry the longest.

E So I think it's important for emerging professionals to feel comfortable speaking up, and I think it's important for firm leaders to make sure that they're listening when young people do speak up.

A Thank you to NCARB for their support of this podcast episode. Visitncarb.org/a0p. That's ncarb.org/ a0p, and contribute to the analysis of practice survey today.

B Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cyber security assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

A Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

B Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast.

A Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is at practice of arch. That's at practice of a r c h. We love to hear from you. Drop us a note to say hello.

B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablmedia.com.

A Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.