Practice Applications Digital Architecture, Block Chain, and NFTS

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

A So this week on Practice Disrupted, we are going a little bit deeper into technology to talk broadly. That sounds like an oxymoron. To go deeper, we yet talk broadly. But that's what we're doing about anything from the IoT or the Internet of things, digital architecture, NFTs in particular, I feel is a buzzword that everybody is kind of trying to figure out what that means for them in this space. But more specifically, what architects should be paying attention to in this area. And I am so incredibly thrilled to welcome Wendy to the show. And this is a connection that we made, I believe, over Twitter. Right, Wendy? So that, that just goes to show you that connections can be made online.

B I was trying to get up to speed on Wendy's credentials and found her on LinkedIn, and, oh my goodness, I was so blown away by the depth of experience from an MRR at Princeton to commercial real estate, analysis and investment at MIT, and then, of course, a doctorate of design and computational innovation at Harvard Graduate School of Design. So

A You didn't even cover her time at the Bartlett School yet.

B There we go. And the and time at the Bartlett School. I I think I was a little intimidated when I looked at your LinkedIn, honestly, Wendy. So I'm super excited to just learn a little bit more about your background and, of course, talk about how you made this interesting jump between architecture and computational design and where you're at now in your career.

C Yeah. So first of all, thank you for inviting me. And yes, the organic conversations that Evelyn and I had through Twitter and everywhere else, I think really helped understand, like, where both of us are. And I think in terms of, like, where all first began, I I would say I was probably in the generation, that really was coming out of the kind of core understanding not American. So I have to say I'm non American. So I did do a lot of it, my formal education abroad and then, like, a lot of it also in in New York. So my kind of influence in how computational and digital architect architecture came in really kinda started with a curiosity of how do we integrate design and technology into our everyday lives kind of speak. And so I also had the pleasure and also, auspiciousness to work with many mentors such as Jesse Reiser.

C You know, currently, I'm still in touch a lot with Greg Lynn because motorcycles. And a lot of these kind of early players in the paperless studios at Columbia. I had an undergraduate education at the Barnard program, and so there was a little bit of transition, but not really that much that kind of cross pollination. So I would say, like, my early interests in architecture and digital design really came in with digital fabrication, just the craft of making things using digital tools, and then applying technique of design, that kind of functions within the realm of, digital fabrication. And I think it evolved, I wanna say, like, maybe 10 or 15 years ago when I started kind of looking at reality capture, looking at ways that we could really kind of push for more kinda handheld platform urbanism discussions. So now it's at the stage of I didn't know what I was looking at when I I was at my doing my doctoral, which to now kind of have the foresight is kind of saying, oh, you know, that's that's really, like, early accounts of blockchain like research. Yeah. So that's kind of how, in a nutshell, it all came together.

A Can we back it up even just a little bit further, Wendy, and have you talk about kind of your interest in architecture and then where these opportunities came to light. Because I I I mean, obviously, there was the paperless studio, but I I feel like not an like, not many people were looking for those type of opportunities at that time. They were, like, much more rooted in in practice for practice sake.

C That's true. Yeah.

A What was that interest for you to, like, first of all, pursue architecture as the underlying theme and then kind of the evolution into technology from a personal journey?

C I think, like, within architecture, what as a as a young, student, I I've always kinda looked at for instance, like, one of my favorite building is actually a very ornate building. It's a Woolworth building. It was probably like I I was very interested in the building because we were taking I forgot. It was, like, one core, art history studio or seminar, that we were all supposed to take in undergrad. And and this is obviously coming from the more undergraduate architecture education and, like, theory education. One One of the biggest things that really can struck me when we had to do the site visit, you had to analyze and you had to draw it and you had to draw it, like, by hand. You had to draw it, you know, even on the computer was, was like when Cass Gilbert really started designing what people thought were the gargoyles of the Woolworth inside and exterior. There's a lot of kind of technique and craftsmanship that comes into, just any sort of architectural production.

C And I think part of that fascination into how things were made really kinda made me, very kinda drawn to how architects practice as using its tools, but also kind of how it impacts local kind of cultural and society and and also economic growth. At that time, you know, the Woolworth Building was quite significant, not because of its, only because of its Planet H type of kind of structure, but also how it became a landmark and one of the tallest buildings in that area. So I think as a architectural landmark, but also beyond that larger discussion of, like, what it is as as like the way that it was built, I think the way it was built really fascinated me more. And so within the practice of architecture, I think that's really part of the beauty of using tools within the design process. And I also had the opportunity to work at various firms, that really inspired me to push the digital application of tools. Working for Prick's office was a great delight. I'm still in touch with Prick's and other directors there. And I think one of the biggest discussions at Prick's office in Vienna and also the Anguvante, which is a University of Applied Arts, in Vienna, was at Zaha was there.

C You have a lot of different studios. Greg was there. And also, just like visiting professors that really push the field of architecture using digital tools. And I think in the case of Frank Gehry, for instance, it's quite evident that with building his buildings, he needed also to kind of parlay the larger discussion of establishing, a software company that could build these buildings. So I think these kind of discussions really opened my eyes on how architecture as a field could be both, kind of pushing for entrepreneurship as one aspect of it. But the other is also creating opportunities within technology, and how does that integrate into the built environment or even just the building itself. Those are kind of one of the kind of pinnacle discussions that of, like, how do you impact data creation in buildings, especially with Gary Tech and, like, DP, especially digital project. Early stages of that were really about basing it off of CATIA CATIA and, like, how do you actually generate forms through data and spreadsheets.

C And it's not really, core to maybe even producing in terms of just formal explorations. And then from that progression also, my curiosity spiked because I think classically speaking, even at undergraduate level, I did like architecture and economics, and then I did during my master's, I did master and or in policy and planning. And so a lot of times, accumulation of information through not only our key, industry, but also from outside of the industry really helped me to understand how to navigate or understand how other people perceive architecture. And, the more recent, degree, which is obviously my doctor of design degree, I also was very fascinated how, the intellectual property, in in law kinda plays a role in how we design design objects, whether it be computer aided design or how we distribute manufacturing in in in the world.

A So Janine and I both have a lot of degrees. I feel like you have a lot a lot of degrees. Have you pursued that path because there is no way to get that education in practice anywhere? Or you or is just academia just like a better way to create a structure and create and get those connections in order to pursue that subject?

C I don't think, like, academia is better or worse. I think I I had an interview a couple years ago where I actually mentioned this. It's funny because I actually I am sure my students who listen to this will end up, you know, cringing and then probably all the deans out there. But I I was actually not into school, if that makes any sense. I I found that my formative education in architecture. So I graduated in 3 years in undergrad. I just had the opportunity to do all my studios and everything and all the, you know, the credits that's required, and I just finished in 3 years. Mostly because there were several tries and tribulations of, like, how I didn't feel like the actual formal education of architecture provided me the groundwork that I needed to understand how to practice in a manner that really executes my own curiosities.

C And I think largely speaking, in at least, most East Coast, schools, they kind of have a very traditional sense of, playing out, you know, especially if you you do the the similar lineage of, education I do, which is you you kind of learn a lot of history theory, you apply it, you kind of go work, and then, you know, when you're in the field, it's generally it's client facing. It's and I I do that a lot also with my own practice and also with client work. And I think there's a difference between, and I think that's where the chasm comes in. There's a difference between practicing architecture and really being able to execute it at a fellowship or writing or even like just as an installation or an exhibition that really provokes certain types of topics that I think sometimes just a day to day grunt of, doing built work, it doesn't give you. And I think that's probably why I've always gone back. Or if not, I have a a toe in, like, teaching for instance or even more than a toe sometimes. And and I think I've always struggled to also personally try to find, quote, unquote, the right space for what my position is in architecture. And especially when it comes to a lot of the work that engages with digital technology or, you know, how do you actually integrate policy discussions within a data landscape that brings it back to architecture? I think now we are at a space with a lot of institutions that really try to engage on that discussion.

C But I would say even, like, 10 years, 2011, 2012, when I was pushing for the AD journal issue on digital property, I actually co wrote it with my adviser at that time. He was very kind of reluctant on, embracing the idea that architects or, you know, the AEC industry would ever consider a blockchain like technology. Like, he he really didn't understand. Understand. But I do think, like, other than my law professors who really embrace the idea of, oh, yeah. Like, you know, blockchains would totally take over the world. And it's and also Martin Bechtold, my other, second reader and adviser, who's now still the director of the DDoS program. He was like, oh, yeah.

C Like, Boeing has been doing this for decades. Like, they need to know where that screw is being distributed, and they have to document it and has to be on a ledger. You know? There's a lot of liability issues. So I guess it's like it depends on who you speak to, but I would say it's like a fairly niche type of discussion to have architects or designers are so embracing. I mean, I could probably count, how many colleagues are really into this, kind of world. And so I think a lot of us do kinda communicate with each other. But also the other question is, where do these architectural individuals end up working? Do they work at traditional practices or do they start their own or do they actually work at industries outside of architecture that requires a lot of computational design? And I think it's mostly the latter. I would say a lot of my colleagues that were really even like a decade older than me that are, you know, in the field of computational, they they end up working at least have a stint at big athletic companies.

C I'm not gonna put names there, but, like, you know, they they they lead their design computational team for, you know, not only architectural work. And and I think other fields find what architects are learning in the digital and computational and also digital fabrication and materiality exploration. Those other companies are the ones that are coming to architects and being like, oh, you know, you have such a critical investigative process of how to understand material in a computational manner, why don't we apply those systems thinking into our firms or corporations. You know, like, for instance, I'm just gonna throw 1 or 2 names out there. I mean, like, nervous system. Right? Their entire practice is computational, but it's also highly, kinda ornamental and, like, mathematical and also, like, is inspired by nature. And a lot of their work, they've been working mostly with, companies like New Balance or like Adidas or, you know, like, other kind of companies that are not traditionally kind of looking into, you know, our own field of architecture. And I don't know if that's just because our own field is, kind of more, I don't know, like, risk adverse in in using it, or are there just because, there's just just a lot more issues in in developing that a narrative to to push the field in that in that manner? I don't know.

C I I genuinely am very curious when I go to conferences and also talk to other colleagues on, like, is it just because the adoption of, new technologies is difficult, or is it just there is kind of a digital virtual world expanding that's very difficult to understand? I I know that for a fact, like, colleagues that I I work with at Autodesk, for instance, or even Adobe, they had, a company that had, more of an XR. It was more like VR slash XR, augmented reality goggle that also attached to, a construction helmet. That that company, like, went, under a couple years ago. But the colleague that worked at the company that worked on developing the the the technology for the goggle itself ended up working at Adobe for a few years in their XR department. And now they're at, Meta working essentially for Facebook in developing virtual worlds. And so I I do think that there are a lot of technological crossovers that could go into tech tech companies. And I think tech companies are the ones that are more interested in pushing that larger question. But I'm still very curious on why, you know, other than the Frank Gehry's of the world, why are we not pushing for more exploratory? I mean, there are a lot of labs.

C So I I did for my doctoral, I did do a lot of research. And part of that research was looking at what other companies out there was actually pushing other than Frank Yuri. So there again, it's probably like a handful. It's a handful of companies that are really trying to push that larger discussion of digital creation and, like, a lab like, think tank like within, a studio atmosphere. So I I don't know. Does that does that go on a tangent? Does does that help? Or does that, like,

A feature something? It does. It it might I mean, I I think it's like a a plus and to everything that you, like, I I mean, I I think it's slow adoption and everything else. I you know, back to the original question, it was just interesting to me that, like, you haven't necessarily found a place in practice and academia. So you continue as you continue to bridge the 2. Right? And it's still still, frankly, unclear, like, where where it's gonna emerge, but these outside forces and I think that's why we talk about things on practice disrupted, that there are outside forces that are kind of demanding these things or finding greater interest in these things than even, we are within our our practices, and and what does that mean ultimately for the future of the profession and or where we're headed?

C Yeah. I mean, like, it's very clear, like, the even seasoned professionals who have been practicing and also trying to find their ground. Like, Greg is the CEO of Piagio Fast Forward. And, you know, for decades years, he's been pushing for such innovative ways integrating materiality into the practice of architecture, you know, using, ways to build boats, sails, and into kind of, like, playfully, engaging with materiality with residential and commercial work. But still at the end of the day, like, I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing. I think it's like a tech a huge technology company is the one that's pushing for what he's interested in, and it's not, you know, the another firm that's fascinated with, like, how how we could integrate these technologies or employ these individuals.

B One question that I have is I I know that your career has kind of been about trying to find this place that you wanna work that meets your expectations and hope for practice and you've kinda perpetually been looking for that. But what is that space? And if you can define it, like, I think you're starting to talk about it in the way that you're defining, like, a incubator lab collaborative studio, but what can you more succinctly describe, like, what it is that you're looking for?

C Yeah. So, I mean, within the past I I mean, the pandemic has actually exacerbated a lot of that larger digital, discussion and especially for industries that are more traditional like real estate. It's also kinda embraced multi platform and also even, like, technology in a much quicker pace. For me, I think, like, realistically speaking, I think my book, manuscript really pushed me to break down these thoughts, which is what a little bit of what you're asking. But I think also in the back end of that, I also interviewed a lot of industry experts to kind of offer and understand a little bit more on the core of what their own theses are. And so I think, like, I spoke with, like, Saskia Sassen, Minerva Tanteko, Andrew Witt, who's still a GSD of of whom I also worked with before on a robotics project, And other mentors such as Greg Glenn and like Jesse Reiser is also writing the foreword. But I think what's key here are all these individuals, whether or not they're working for object scale or their policy makers like Minerva, who's now actually the chief technology. She was a chief technology officer, the initial one during the Bloomberg days.

C And also she's currently the chief, executive AI person at the NYU Institute. I think all of these individuals are trying to engage in a kind of territorial and infrastructural discussion. And that's kind of where I realized what my research and my interests actually are more broadened in in actually, understanding how it could be applied in various scales is it's more of an infrastructural discussion. And it's, again, infrastructurally speaking, it could be about the Internet as a digital and invisible, network. It exists, and it's a tissue in the current state of technology and also even the current state of the world, especially first world countries. It is a connective tissue of how all of these powers are coming together. More critical to that discussion for me at at least now at this stage of my research interest. And also kind of looking at how, like, web 3 and and, like, you know, just digital worlds are built.

C These new infrastructures are intended where, a lot of data centers and also commercial buildings and, like, how architects need to integrate new forms of contemporary space that are design oriented but also intent oriented that encompasses an accessibility to the internet. And I think that has made me realize other things, which is, for instance, Minerva was the policymaker at the time that really pushed Link NYC to happen. So she's writing a guest essay on that. But Link NYC, for those who are not from New York or in New York, is very important. It's a critical infrastructural system because I think most people know them as ad posts on in Manhattan, which has, like, tidbit information on the side of the streets and also where you could charge your phone. But it's designed also to offer individuals who might be walking down the street and feel unsafe and who are harassed and could go there and get free internet. But also could report their unsafe situation and press help. Or for homeless people to be able to connect with other people or, you know, kind of handy accessible pod systems where you could actually roll your wheelchair onto it and be able to plug in.

C And so there's a lot of kind of integral design opportunities that not only are you like in a urban scale or in a in a like kind of architectural scale, but it's also thinking about how we connect cities. And I think talking to Saskia Sassen really helped also because, you know, she's very interested in that larger power authority and territory discussion on like how urban systems are connected through a larger tissue. And obviously with Greg, one of the larger discussions is also like how data plays and makes a role into our day to day systems using robotics with the Gita robot or like with anything else. So I think what I realized over the years and, like, how we're driving technology and also how we're integrating systems, into planning is that all of these little parts of how we're designing is part of a larger system. It is architecture. And it it might not be seen historically as a as a system that, you know, it's you're building a house with certain type of materiality or you know you're in LA and you're being building an ADU and you know it's in some someone's backyard, but it is part of a larger infrastructural system that is important regardless of how you interact with it. And I do think, like, NFTs, and blockchain like systems are part of that system that needs to be clarified. And I think right now we're still in the early stage of, believing that, you know, creations in as a digital asset is still used as a manner of cultural ledger.

C But it could be beyond that, accessibility issue of maybe the focus should be not on digital objects as art objects, but maybe how does architecture and real estate use these, forms of system to be more transparent so that traditionally disenfranchised communities or BIPOC communities who have less access to understanding for instance the very convoluted and complicated process of ownership and transactions in traditional real estate could actually use smart contracts. Right? Which in a sense is not that different from a digital ledger that's, you know, storing something in a MetaBank somewhere or using, you know, any other kind of blockchain like systems.

A So let's kind of break down these topics because, like, so when you are talking about a digital ledger, that is actually I feel like blockchain and, for instance, cyber currency is, like, often, like, linked hand in hand. Right? But can you help us distill down some of the definition of what these are like you did with the ledger and then talk about why the traditional architect should care.

C Yeah. I think I think the beauty of the hybridization of digital goods and physical purchase in in a world where all of our transactions is more or less digital, essentially. You know? Like, whether or not you wanna call it meta, whether you call it Internet, essentially, is, I I think meta is just a new rebranding of how we're engaging in web 2, web 1. It it's not really that different. I mean, Webex o is really one of the chapters I've been kind of engaging on for, like, chapter 5 and 4, in the book, which is like okay. Look. If you're thinking of transactions online or on your credit card, it is more or less kind of broken down in the system where whatever you're buying ends up being documented, and you have a essentially, you could print it out, but it's also a digital ledger of some sort. It's probably not as traditionally it it's not viewed the same manner as blockchain because I think, the blockchain system is something that's it's it's a little bit more difficult to corrupt.

C It's transaction based. It's also really about, if you wanna break it down for an anti gimmick application of the terms, I would say, like, if you're physically going to store or having it mailed to you, and you're looking to buying something on your credit card, in a sense you could see whatever you buy through the transaction of your credit card as some sort of a ledger. I think the more kind of, the idiosyncrasy within a blockchain, however, it facilitates, a type of immutable ledger that also has a process of recording transactions and assets within a business network. And within that business network, I think in what how architects and designers could have the responsibility of engaging with and integrating into our day to day design. I think it this is my own personal opinion is that there are ways perhaps, and this is where I think there needs to be a change or an evolution on how the AEC industry would push forward is to have a more transparent process of building, period. Not BIM in the sense that, you know, you have, building information technology where multiple multiple players come together in building that building, let's say. But beyond that system is that integrating a actual blockchain like system where you're actually gonna integrate the informal workers that are building your building, subcontractors that really have no agency in building your building. Being transparent in the sense not only on the finance terms of how distributions of, trading purposes work in finance within a blockchain like system, is integrated in the building technology? How much is the bolt? How much is the window frame? How much is, like, the day to day? And, what what happens if the AC breaks down? What is the rigmarole that you have to go to, like, find the actual general contractor to actually, you know, go back on-site and, like, fix it? All of these would be documented not because, you know, in a in a traditional sense, we don't have it documented.

C We do. But it's never in the sense that it's so transparent that you could actually see the financial breakdowns where, you know, the whole community could incorporate a distribution financial distribution system that would say, like, a wood supplier and a a steel contractor could also build out the same system and and transparency and see what the draw drywall guy is actually, you know, kind of in the bid for. And not only because of liability issues, which a lot of times is great, but also because there are individuals who build our buildings that have no agency. And I do think in a practical sense and maybe in a transparency sense and also as a as a way to celebrate the workforce, a lot of the invisible labor could invisible labor could be highlighted perhaps, and this might be, you know, idealistic or utopian. It could be high highlighted through maybe a blockchain like system. And so that larger system is above and beyond, you know, just NFTs, you know. And and and that's where I I think, you know, some people don't really understand, like, well, why do we need blockchains? Why do we need Right. NFTs?

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A I always had this romantic idea, and I've said this actually several times this season, and I a few listeners have responded to it, but, like, of creating an IMBD, essentially, for a building, though, like right? Like, the movie database where you have, like, down to the grip, like, everybody involved in that building and kind of their role in it. And I was like, there is there is no there is not enough not only transparency, but, like, like, there's not enough openness in kind of sharing to, like, give everyone accounts, everybody, like, an accountable role on a build like, you know, like like and and now I'm going on a little bit of a tangent, but design awards always list for architects, they always list maybe 1 or 2 people that are involved. It doesn't necessarily stream down to the entire team. Right? So how would we ever provide a mechanism in which you can actually see everybody who's contributed to the interest, like, the intricacies of building a building and the role that they played in it.

C Yeah. And and that was actually one of the explorations I had, for my DDoS, and I I'd built something out. At that time, again, I didn't know I was building something that was a blockchain like system. It was just more like a multi model, multiplayer, system. Like, if you're all designing 1 object, and it was built on Unity. And then so it was kinda like, okay. How do we then have multiple players come in that's not BIM, but has metadata embedded in a ledger whereby every change you make on the digital model also equated to a, like, a financial or attribution type of distribution. Right? And some people might not care about getting paid in, you know, a huge amount, but some people would rather have their attribution made public.

C And I think from a lot of I I did a lot of surveys for my research, and I think over a 1000 people, most creatives across the board, cared more about whether or not they're attributed on a project than, like, whether or not they're paid excruciating amount. I'm I'm not saying that you shouldn't get paid. I am a huge I I every person that has I've ever worked with, including, like, a junior intern has always gotten paid when working with me, and I I've always been, like, pushing for this. I'm like, the industry needs to celebrate payment of some sort. I mean, it's probably architecture and fashion is probably the 2 worst industries when in terms of compensation. But either way, I would say, like, the larger discussion is, again, back to the creator having attribution. What happens if a percentile of whatever they're designing gets extracted and reproduced. What do those derivative derivatives look like? And this is more again back to the legal discussion, which is what I'm interested in, which is, like, when it comes to, let's say, coding, there's a more of a culture of, like, referencing someone's code and celebrating the fact that I, you know, reverse engineered x and made y and used your code to develop, I don't know, z.

C Right? But I think there's there's a kinda I I think architecture is still on the the gamut of design, and there's, like, a lot of egos involved. And so, like, there's a lot of that larger discussion that's not discussed. And as you mentioned, Evelyn, like, that's part of that issue, which is, you know, do you celebrate the whole team because they put so much sweat and tears within it? Or is it about celebrating 1 or 2 individuals that really are building that thing or building? And I think I think as you mentioned like a lot of competitions and awards do list. But again, I think a lot of firms these days do also kinda celebrate like which engineer, firm that they work with. But just because they celebrate like a common era working with them, it doesn't mean that they're gonna share like the 10 engineers that are also working with them. You know, it's like, here's the brand. And, you know, where what about the 10 people that also work behind the brand? Right?

B It makes me think of, like, when I've worked on really complicated projects, especially in Revit where you have multiple people working in the drawing and in the model. I think techno I mean, it's a really good example of how technology is shifting the way teams operate. Whereas you used to have a room full of drafts, people who are working under, one architect. Now it's like there's this level of invisibility, I think, that's happens with being in a digital space and many different people contributing to the input of developing a model and developing a set of drawings and then bringing it to realization through construction. So I'd love to hear more about your view on how computational design and modeling, your point of view about how that shift in that evolution that we're in is, you know, really making a difference in the way that we practice and what's the unlocked potential of where we could be going with it.

C Yeah. So I I I totally agree, Janine, with what you just mentioned about the amount of work, and also the integration of various, like, creators to make it happen. I think one of the biggest discussions that, like, early Rhino 3 d program, if you don't turn on a history, you don't you never know, like, who actually worked on the model. Right? With with River, it's a little bit more transparent, I I would say, like, even with DP. But one of the the the the 2 the 2 things that don't come together again, unlike working for a law firm, is that you don't get billable hours just because you're a paralegal. Right? Like, you're not getting you know, even if the the principal is making $500 or, you know, 750 or, you know, however much your lawyer costs per hour, and the paralegal is charging you a 100, 150 per hour, and you get, you know, a 15 minute quarterly of an hour build. Architects don't work that way. And I think there it might need to work that way or maybe it's gonna be too expensive.

C And this is this is another issue that comes into the design and architecture is like people always constantly try to underbid each other. And so the quality of work, you might be putting too much essentially time on something, but you actually don't get compensated for it. And then therefore, you know, you have this again, that issue of, you know, who gets undercut. And usually, it's the juniors that do in in the current discussion, of the field. But I I think largely speaking, if we were to push for a more equitable workforce, a larger discussion may be a policy discussion, but I think it's about better protection. And if better protection could come within a blockchain system or a blockchain like system, then there are ways to use data for social good. There are ways to mitigate larger data distribution in a sense of, like, how we are using data to govern our day to day practice. And that could be through as simple as what lawyers are doing that's in the billables.

C But also because there are so many ways that every time you're touching a file, it shows, you know, Janine has been working on it for, like, 5 hours, but, like, Jim has only been working it for, you know, 30 minutes. So if Jim has been working for 30 minutes, should Jim get paid less? Right? And so these are kind of things. And then but on top of that, I think there's the difficulty, which is different from, like, the a constant law practice, which is, like, you know, it is more tangible. Sometimes design isn't tangible. Right? So just because someone spent like, for for instance, me. Like, if I were to have 3 d modeled something, I could probably 3 d model something in 15 minutes. Whereas if I gave it to a junior designer, it might take them an hour and a half. Doesn't mean the quality is better or worse if either of us are doing it.

C But, like, in terms of billable, I might do way faster just because of experience. And I think the premium that someone actually is paying for is not necessarily the premium of, you know, me spending 15 minutes. It's a premium of, like, also the decades of education, the experience I'm putting onto something. And I think, I think this is again part of the practice. Architects underbid themselves for that exact same reason because they don't remember sometimes or just because it's how competitive it is to underbid yourself. They don't remember how much of their previous experience they're putting into their day to day and hourly rates. But again, I think it's if we were to adapt a new system, not saying that we aren't doing that already, is that how do we form a means of using blockchain like systems as a cultural ledger perhaps to better the society. Using cultural ledger as an interpretation of, you know, urban renewal, social integration, and using cultural ledger as a form of currency that promotes invisible labor, but also benefits the community.

C And I think these are some discussions that don't really get pushed in the WebExo discussion. Is that what happens to the physical space when you're actually trying to use architectural, again, you know, kind of efforts or ways to think beyond platform urbanism and integrating better ways of designing space. And I think right now, back to that discussion of, like, you know, who's actually using this technology the most. I would say, like, the lowest hanging fruit of the meta space or the web 3 0 space has been retail. Corporations are really interested in high engagement, high turnover projects because it's quick to test out who on the market would actually be using these technologies. And, obviously, retail engaging individuals and also corporations such as the Nikes out there, such as Adidas, and all these other kind of sneaker head related practices is engaging on the future, you know, virtual reality. And also a lot of fashion brands are doing that because I think they have already, a day to day operation on the on the ground level. So it's not that difficult to kind of integrate it.

C Well, you know, how does a buyer integrate? And if they were to buy the the newest vial that, you know, kind of opens up on the digital world, what do they get in the physical world? Right? It's it's more a quip or quo kind of discussion. And it's kinda a little bit difficult when urban cultural ledger is coming up when a lot of these urban renewal projects takes 20 years to actually establish itself, then how do we actually engage in better workforce or a better protection method? I I hope that gives you, like, 2 scales of economy at least.

A So these retailers are obviously using NFTs. So so when it comes to architecture practice and thinking about how NFTs are engaging at a policy level, where where should we have our eye on and what are the future potential possibilities?

C I think, like, within within the field right now, given, you know, supply chain issues are such a big topic of discussion within construction, within real estate, definitely with within architecture. The next I'm not saying this is a next phase. I think, like, there is there's a lot of kind of misunderstanding of using of NFTs. I think One of the the key potentials of the NFTs in digital realm is that if you're using gaming as an example, if gaming is centralized on one server, NFTs is decentralizing those skins that you have for your sneaker or, you know, the avatar that you have a different colored hair for into a localized, community within your data network. Right? It could be, like, on your local computer or it could be on your local data system, whatever you use, your server. And I think realistically speaking, if we're actually pushing that a little bit further and looking at supply chain issues and build actual new building materials as an extensive system, Potentially, there's a way to also aggregate, how we're using, you know, how gamers are using NFTs or even how gamers are actually buying digital objects to a physical world in terms of how we're actually seeing those, experiences. So I think in one way of reutilizing this larger discussion of supply chains is that perhaps the there's, I think, still the easiest and for in terms of works workforce transparency is one thing, but also perhaps there's a way to make way for architects to play in to perhaps esports and econcerts within how we're designing spaces. And what I mean by that is that, you know, like, Travis Scott's Fortnite concert probably was one of the biggest concert that I've ever existed because there's, like, you

A know, a lot not know Travis Knight had a Fortnite concert.

C Yeah. Travis Scott had Fortnite. Well, this is, like, during pandemic. Scott. So Okay. So I think, like, one of the larger discussions is, like, you know, it's it's one of the biggest because, like, you're you're having several instances within a cluster of 50, approximately 50 people per cluster on the virtual platform. So you're actually creating decentralized spaces and, like, multiplying these instances to see the same individual sing or perform. I think what would be very interesting, and this is something that I'm exploring with a few thesis students at the UC architecture program, is that what will happen of reusing physical architectural spaces, especially in Los Angeles, where a lot of these spaces will probably get decommissioned such as movie theaters.

C There's there's a highly there's been a huge issue with theaters during the pandemic, but also because how individuals, I would say generation alpha is, economically also, it's very interesting. Economically, gen a or gen alpha, not really a, gen alpha is gonna be have the same amount of spending power as boomers. We you you and I and everyone else in the middle have been, like, the most disenfranchised.

A We're all SOL. Yeah.

C So generation alpha, however, also has been less interested in going movie theater. Right? So architecturally speaking, the physical building is kind of reduced into streaming services. And so if we have physical buildings that we need to renegotiate that perhaps Travis Scott Fortnite experience, how do we push for those bigger arena kind of experiences? I I don't think there's I I don't think it's by chance and happenstance that crypto.com is renamed as crypto.comarena, which is what Staple Center used to be called. I I yes. There's a lot of money involved, but I also think that there's a larger interest into kind of ways that existing buildings could be repurposed, retrofit, however you wanna use it. But also, like, for instance, in California, gas stations by 2050 probably will be reduced due to California's interest in becoming carbon neutral electric vehicles. What do you do with gas stations? What do you do with car washes? Like, how do you reappropriate existing buildings to integrate new technologies? And I think that's gonna I'm not saying that's a trend prediction, but I do think because concrete, for instance, is 18 to 24 months behind in terms of supply chain supplies. Quite literally, there's there's a backlog of material distribution.

C Why not think of existing buildings that are really not being utilized? And if we're gonna do that, how how could architects kinda come back to the physical space and start replanning those spaces for alternative uses? I think that's also another discussion to be had, obviously, inspired by, like, Donald Judd and his Marfa, buildings. But yes.

A Does that mean spaces need to be spaces in the future need to serve a more multifunctional purpose than they ever have Before

C I I would say, like, architects would need to know how to adapt buildings in these physical environments to be engaging or be able to engage in different meta experiences. I would say it's not that architects need to I mean, obviously, a lot of architects through the education of architecture learn to build different types of buildings. But I think the difference is now architects might need to learn how to physically readapt new technologies into buildings rather than just understand the technology itself.

A Right. So what's interesting to me and where this conversation is headed is because we've been talking I've been talking at a very what I'm understanding right now to be a super rudimentary level of the hybrid practice, and here I was thinking I was so forward thinking. But what it really is is that, like, like, there will be an ongoing intersection between, like, the digital experience and how that plays out in the real world. And we just need to be keenly aware of of how every experience is potentially a hybrid experience, one that you've experienced in physical space, but it also, like, shows up on my phone in a various different ways, or one that, like, I'm in my computer, but also attending a concert where somebody else might be attending in person.

C Yeah. I I would say that.

B I'm really glad you grounded it in those terms to think about the buying power behind generation alpha. Let's just briefly define what generation alpha is. So what year would you what year are they born?

C 9 years old to 14 currently. So by the time they're of age, they would have more financial power than you and I put together.

B And it's interesting because we are seeing that in the educational experience. I think that's where they are at right now, but, like, this different academic experience than what many of us experience coming up. And so, basically, what you're talking about is that's gonna continue into their adult lives and how they think about infrastructure needs. And you gave the example of the movie theater, which I think is a really relevant example, especially with the, you know, emergence of streaming platforms.

C Yeah. I mean, it's also not it's also ironic that I don't know. For those who are from LA or in LA, the the Egyptian theater currently is bought by Netflix. It's owned by Netflix. Right? And classically speaking, I also I'm always at awe when Culver City is actually built by MGM. Right? It's it's planned by a studio. And these kind of these these kind of ways of designing cities, I think, are not gonna stop in my opinion. I feel like the bigger tech companies will come back in.

C And as Janine you were mentioning like I I don't think the digital is gonna go away. I think it's just gonna be re reappropriated in different physical spaces that we engage with. I think, like, in a sense, like, we are in a very crucial moment at least for architects who are excited about producing hybrid spaces. And that, you know, I mean, I I didn't go into like the data center discussion of like how inhumane a lot of these data center spaces are, because that's also one of the biggest research interests of mine is like, if we're gonna integrate decentralized data into our day to day living, are there better ways to incorporate the architectural practice to, build sustainable environmentally, like, cautious footprint of data usage into our day to day lives. Can we integrate these into our furniture? Can we integrate these into our structural framework of walls, zip walls, structural columns, all of these other discussions? But beyond that, I think we're also in a very crucial moment to thinking about if we're gonna have more of these hybridized spaces that are nontraditional in the sense that, you know, you're not only going to a movie theater to watch a movie, but you're also engaging at, like, different concerts or, like, you know, you're you're doing celebrations of other sorts. How do we look at these infrastructures a as a matter of how we're contributing to it as a community? Right? Accessing the communities that don't traditionally have access to, but be able to utilize the actual physical space for alternative uses. So, yes, it might be viewed as, you know, one space has multifunction, but I think it's more important to kinda say that when we're not only designing for the 1%, there are other ways to engage a community to utilize a space. And I think that's very crucial if we're able to take the next step on designing spaces that are also about accessing communities that don't generally have, access to these spaces.

C So it's like, you know, when you're designing a museum, there's a lot of discussions of, like, how do you make a museum space accessible? Not only in terms of, understanding the content, but also being able to encompass, 8 year old child to an 80 year old grandma that's bringing the child there to understand the content that's within the space. Right? So I think within designing the hybridized storytelling, of a space, using digital devices obviously will not be a surprise. But also, like, how do you play up the augmented reality spaces? How do you use, mixed reality to storytell a little bit more? I think that's something I feel, as architects, we probably need to, be more aware of when we're actually designing these spaces, and that's something I'm very interested in.

B I guess I wanna really round the corner on this conversation on NFTs because I know that this was one of the key things Evelyn wanted to talk to you about. Do you have examples in your research of firms that are actually implementing this, or are we too early to really understand how architecture firms are implementing it? Is it still at the conceptual stage?

C Oh, no. Not at all. I don't think we're at at the conceptual stage at all. I do think NFTs so I think, like, foundation over the pandemic has, you know, obviously pushed a lot. I feel like within the 12 month, 15 month period, they've launched a lot on what they actually could be doing with the platform. However, I think it's still a marketplace. Architects are still just contributing their digital objects into a marketplace discussion of where it's more of an auction of whatever you create. Right? I have several colleagues that are actually doing that, who are making NFTs.

C They're doing it on OpenSea Foundation. Like, whatever you could find. Right? But I think it's still not engaging as what architects are traditionally educated to do, which is engage with community in a physical realm or perhaps integrate that same technology into as what we spoke of earlier working with, you know, maybe non traditional users with the technology. And I think that's still something, that again, we if we think beyond building for the 1%, we could start thinking about, how to engage on the use of social good. The the probably the only NFT I really put out was with welcome to Chinatown as a fundraiser. And I think that's the only time I really did it just because it's we're we were creating something obviously digital, but I was working with another artist in LA to kind of make these visual physical objects so that, you know, they're not only buying into the digital object. But it's again, it was a 5050 split on fundraising because, at this current moment, we're still in the pandemic, and there's still a lot of, you know, Asian hate around. And so a lot of Chinatowns, especially in New York City, a lot of businesses have been suffering.

C So I'm still trying to figure out personally how to utilize, digital currency as a means of fundraising or, like, you know, putting out objects, not just for the sake of putting out objects. But in terms of other architects, I do think there are other architects are trying to use different types of platforms beyond Bitcoin, ETH, and like, you know, different types of currency. And they're they're exploring it at a very different level. I think one of it is exploring a level of like, how do we find the type of digital currency that could be, better for the environment, like, use less energy to consume. And this is where the data center discussion comes in. And, you know, how do we mine it that makes new builds more sustainable? And I think there are architects that are interested in that, but, obviously, this comes hand in hand with, computer engineers and also physical engineers to build infrastructure for it. But El Salvador obviously is, you know, one of the foreground countries that are, like, pushing for geothermal to build an actual Bitcoin society. Right? Whether or not that works locally is another issue, Because the the adaptation for local consumers and also local citizens, the currency is so much in flux.

C It's kinda difficult to buy things and trade with. So I think it's still at an early stage on that level, but whether or not we're actually using the infrastructure system to think of ways to engage with actual physical communities, I don't think that is new. I just think that there are better ways, not only using NFTs, but there are better ways to use blockchain systems and smart contracts to engage on other fields that architects are prompting more urgency to engage with. And if we're gonna use NFTs as a Trojan horse to kinda enter the field, so be it. I don't think, you know, virtual is going anywhere. I don't think blockchain systems are going anywhere. I I do think as we proceed more into e contracts and and and smart contracts, that's just gonna be more in our day to day practice. I mean, when was the last time you used a DocuSign? I'm sure quite recently.

C So I think that type of culture that's integrated into our day to day will as people see the benefits of having a more transparent transaction within our field, it's it's gonna be, you know, easier for people to understand like, oh, okay. Having something on the blockchain isn't a bad thing. It's it's not necessarily, you know, a a a thing that we should be worried about.

B This conversation is something that I'm, like, on the learning curve with for sure and trying to understand, and, understand, and, it's a lot of new information. I'm sure others feel that way too. And so I, you know, I wanna come to this conclusion question, trying to distill it down, Wendy, from your own words. Like, if you had to really choose you've you've talked about a lot of ideas in this episode, but if you had to make one main point, or share one main lesson on change, that you think architects could grab onto following this conversation that could help them, in moving the industry forward? What would that one main core idea be?

C If architecture could be a form of cultural ledger, then we could probably start interpreting that cultural ledger as a means of like moving forward with extra legal or extra economical societal contributions. And that's something I think is is something that as architects, we should think, again, as a way of creating space, as a form of physical currency in that sense.

B Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

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