Voices of Mothers in Practice

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

C Together, we'll find ways to create

D new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

D Hello, listeners. Hello, Jean.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Welcome back to a special episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we are continuing our diversity series, but through the lens of being a mother and trying to practice architecture.

E So Montgomery is my hometown, and I was able to coordinate with with the office here to relocate for, a temporary amount of time and give birth to our first son, my husband and I, back in the spring of 2021. So we relocated. And late July of 2021, I gave birth to my son, Kai. And we're in Montgomery, Alabama, where, again, my hometown was. And he is from my husband's from Birmingham, Alabama. So being able to have that flexibility to be in our home state, hometown, be surrounded by family, friends, and colleagues that were really supportive was actually extremely helpful. I got a chance to work, you know, in person and still have that flexibility of being remote when I needed to. I had that family support of a close family member, my aunt, actually, who kept my son until he was 6 months old.

E So that was really nice not to have to be, you know, thrown into the daycare world right off bat. So she kept him until he was 6 months. I took maternity leave for 2 months after he was born. And my transition back into architecture firm life wasn't too bad. I came back and realized that the projects had been

F put on hold that were

E government based, and I was closing out tasks with some projects that were also kinda coming to an end and being put on hold. So it was a pretty smooth transition back into the firm, not overly overly stressful or overwhelming. And then some shifts happened at 6 months when Ky did go to daycare for the first time. I had to, you know, figure out how to balance, you know, pick up drop offs at a certain time, when projects did have certain deadlines, you know, how to manage those deadlines and tasks when Kai would get sick from daycare, bugs, viruses, whatever it was. There were times, of course, when I had to kinda huddle over my computer at night and get some things done or either, you know, during nap times on weekends, just try to get as much done as possible. So that's kind of been the biggest, like, challenge with scheduling. And one more factor that, you know, kind of affected our family was that my husband still had a DC based job and he had to go back to work in person for at least 3 days a week starting like October of 2021. So he, at that point, was going and coming, visiting during the holidays once a month, and then continuing to visit once a month when 2022 hit.

E So that was one challenge that we did have. But at the same time, equally, we were still extremely supported by family and friends and knowing that, you know, I I chose to stay around Montgomery just to give family more time to kinda see Ky go through his 1st year, as well as be able to work out of the Montgomery office and get to know and reconnect with some colleagues. It was really nice, but equally a challenge because dad was going and coming. And we we were also trying to be as involved as possible, FaceTiming every day and doing all of that. But kind of the separation will come to an end. Next month, actually, September 2022, Kai and I will be going back to the DC, Virginia area, and I'll be reassuming my full time remote position with SSNA. So, again, it's been really nice to have that flexibility. I'd say the most challenging of, you know, this last kind of year and a half has been, you know, when Kai gets sick and trying to balance getting work done while, you know, making sure that, you know, your sick child is being cared for whether it's, you know, 2 or 3 days at home, one day at home, or, you know, something as as long as a week being at home.

E You know, COVID and viruses such as, like, RSV and things like that. You know, when it hits a day care classroom, they, you know, shuts the classroom down. So you have to figure out if when a family member can keep your child or if you're gonna have to balance keeping your child at home while still, you know, being on meetings at work and that kind of thing. So those are some of the biggest adjustments I've had to make. A lot of family dynamics and just, you know, making sure that Kya is okay during sicknesses and things like that.

D I think I've hit rerecord on this story at least 20 different times. I've always been considered a a workaholic. I naturally fall into that category where everyone's constantly asking me, how do you do it all? How do you do practice of architecture? Do practice disrupted? Participate in the AIA all at once. And the thought of adding motherhood on top of that, even though it's something that I really wanted, In a way, it scared me more so because of the unknown, but also because I didn't really have anyone to talk to about that decision at that time. But I remember coming up with this agreement with my husband that when I turned 35, that is when we would start trying to have kids, not fully knowing, you know, if this is something that was going to be able to happen right away and having seen several of my friends struggle with fertility. Thankfully, we were incredibly lucky to get pregnant relatively soon, but I also miscarried my first child. And I was left alone with those feelings, not entirely knowing what to do. It was before the end of the 1st trimester.

D We had told our parents a little bit out of over excitement that we were expecting. We hadn't told anyone else, but I also definitely wasn't showing. And it was a second visit to the doctor after we had previously confirmed kind of the size of the baby. So I told my husband that I didn't need him there, and I have this empty feeling of being told by the doctor that there's no heart be present. And I didn't I didn't know how to handle it. I didn't know who to tell other than my husband. And I remember going home in the middle of the work day and wondering if I should go back to work or if I should actually take this time to deal with my feelings at that moment. Ultimately, I ended up taking the half day off, but it wasn't without my husband's encouragement.

D And then the second pregnancy, which was successful, was addressing to navigate purely from the fact that I was the first person in my company at that time to the first female to have have a child. So navigating short term leave, maternity leave, what that looks like, and what my return to work plan looks like all on my own with the help of our bookkeeper was really interesting. Thankfully, I had a really supportive firm, but they didn't know who to talk to. I felt like all the individuals that I knew who had been a mother were raising their kids in this time where they were trying to hide their pregnancies, not sure when to tell their clients. And a part of me wanted to believe that things had changed, that we were in a different place, that this transition was doable. I think part of me, I was I was just talking myself up in order to, you know, say, like, this this is okay. You you can do it all. And somehow I I feel like I I've managed to to do that.

D And now and now I have 2 kids, ages 57. And I still get that that question a lot. How do you have your full time job? How do you do the practice of architecture? How do you do practice disrupted, how do you volunteer in the AIA when you have 2 young children at home? It really comes down to my community and the choices that my husband and I have made in order to continue growing our careers in the way that we wanted to grow them. So for most of the last 6 6 years, we had a full time nanny, and most of my take home pay, even working for a tech firm, went to supporting her hours as well as her overtime. Because when you have a full time nanny, you're essentially their employer, and we wanted to be good employers and make sure we were paying her a living wage to live within the Bay Area. But but that was a very distinct choice that Ryan and I made in the beginning, that we would put our money towards childcare so that our careers can continue to grow. There's a few things that I have learned out of becoming a mother, and and one very key distinction is it is truly hard, I think, for individuals to be empathetic with caregivers and and kind of all the ins and outs that they face during the day having not been a caregiver themselves. I get called out of meetings if I get a call from the school, and managing through the pandemic has been a whole another level of interesting navigation, especially in the beginning when the kids were both at home.

D My son's first introduction to school was when he was in TK. I don't know if you all can imagine a TK. Trying to to give your first child, your oldest child, their first home or school experience from home on Zoom when they're of the age where they have very limited attention span. So so that was fun. But now in the return to office and more things going back to, quote, unquote, the way they were, navigating all of the policies that your school does or doesn't have regarding whether or not your child is sick and whether they you should test your child for COVID and then what to do after they're positive. You're actually somewhat reverse incentivized as a parent to report your child's illness because that could potentially mean depending on school policy. You have to keep your kid home with you for the next 10 days. And when your kids are of school age, you know, essentially, that's prime childcare time time for parents.

D So if they're not at school, that means that they're at home with you. One thing that I really personally struggled with as my children were younger was whether or not I am fully equipped to take care of of my my children in a way that that my nanny could. I just I need time around adults and adult conversation. And I remember the first couple years even after my daughter was born and being very anxious of times and not necessarily looking forward to the time that it was just me and the kids because I didn't know what I what I would do to keep them entertained, and I got very anxious about it. That eventually went away over time. One thing that was interesting regarding motherhood in general and the outsider perspective was having Janine visit our house recently, just this last weekend, in fact. And one of the comments that she made that stuck out with me well, 2 of the comments. 1 was, you know, can you see how far you've come? She's known me as an individual single, you know, a single queer minded woman now to this mother living living for all intents and purposes in the suburb raising 2 elementary kids.

D But she also noted that they've brought out a different side of me, a softer side of me that she just doesn't see in the professional world. I don't know if I still unintentionally compartmentalize those two worlds because this feeling that motherhood and being a mother isn't as well accepted in the profession. I hope pre pandemic that's something that we can change, and I'm I'm definitely finding more ways to work more flexibly and asynchronously to make it work for our own project teams at at Slack. So a lot of the conversations that I've been having right now is how do we make it work within architecture practice to allow people to have not necessarily balance. It's funny to me that people are always in search of, you know, work life balance. There will be times when I'm focused on work, and there'll be times when I'm focused on family, And there'll be times when I need to be more focused on work and times when I need to be more focused on family. So whether or not you actually achieve a balance, I think is questionable. But how you manage all of the priorities and whether or not you do so on your own or if you do so with our broader community.

D And I've I've chosen to do it with a community in partnership with my husband working closely with the other caretakers of our children. We've since gone to an au pair. That's how I manage. I don't know if I ever truly find balance. But I would hope that in this new way of working, we at least find ways to allow for greater flexibility so people are able to work and be a part of a firm and do their work when they are most productive. And if that's outside of drop off and pickups, and if it's like me late into the night, I think that'll be a move in the right direction. And hopefully, we can talk more openly about what it's like to be a mother. Not only within practice, but I think also to our clients when it comes to managing overall expectations.

G So soon after my business partner, Ming, and I started our firm at the beginning of 2014, we actually got pregnant 3 weeks apart from each other. And we really actually did try to avoid that from the beginning. But for various different reasons, you just can't control some of these things. And at that point, it was only us 2 in the firm, no employees. So Ming ended up having to hide her belly under a trench coat so that our clients would not have to worry about someone not being able to attend to their project when we had our babies. For some reason, Ming's belly was showing more, so she decided to be the one that would hide her belly under the trench coat. Also, I think, as you know, commercial projects often have very strict schedules, very inflexible schedules. So we couldn't really afford to take maternity leave beyond, like, 2 weeks.

G And so without skipping a beat, both of us were back at work despite having one of us gotten a c section, another experiencing breastfeeding complications, baby's not sleeping, all of that stuff. And we were often pumping a car in the back seat, all cramped up, before our meetings. And, of course, this was long before cordless pumps were invented. So when we had our second children, we did not have our second children at the same time, thankfully. And perhaps due to some stress I was going through at the time, I actually experienced secondary infertility, which involved a lot of visits to the fertility doctor. And there were only women in our office at the time. We're relatively close. And so I just ended up being transparent about why I was out and about so much.

G But I couldn't help but sympathize for other people working in firms where, you know, they would not be able to be as transparent with their coworkers and have to worry about their coworkers wondering why they were always out. And not everyone even feels comfortable sharing these types of struggles. So I I ended up getting pregnant without having to go through IVF somehow. I was able to have a VBAC, vaginal birth after c section, but that also resulted in some severe tearing during childbirth and diastasis recti. So I ended up having to go to a lot of physical therapy appointments to get myself even somewhat functional again. And, again, I was very thankful that I was in a work situation where the people I worked with understood what I needed to go through. Actually, none of my employees at the at the time had children, but we just have a very understanding kind of work culture, and I was very thankful about that. So another thing is that people are often asking Ming and me about work life balance because they know that we both have 2 kids and we're running this growing practice.

G And especially with the uncertainties of being a parent, the primary caregiver of our children, especially during this pandemic, especially earlier in the pandemic when children weren't able to go to school or classrooms would easily get shut down whenever there was a case, Ming and I have started to talk more about work life blending and flexibility. So as you know, school schedules are often erratic. Summer camp schedules even more so. When a child is sick, it's not like we can even hire a babysitter to watch them, especially during COVID. I remember earlier on in the pandemic having 2 kids at home, just while working full time and teaching, actually, I nearly died. There were a lot of very late nights and weekends struggling to keep up with work. There were certainly a lot of meetings where I took had to take them with kids sitting under my desk and muting whenever they were yelling or crying. I think we work in an especially difficult industry for mothers because unlike, say, a photographer or a hairstylist, like, our projects last for years years require constant and unexpected attention.

G And the workload can be so unpredictable, especially during construction. At the same time, especially in the early years of life, a mom may want to work part time to bond with a child, to recover physically, but also to feel professionally engaged at the same time, which is actually something I've never been able to experience as a owner of a small firm. I think also being a firm owner gives me this unique perspective where, especially in the Bay Area where women are having children later in life, they are in a pretty senior position when they may wanna take maternity leave or work part time. And I think the challenge is that as much as I want to allow mothers to work part time, it's really hard because people in leadership often have to be those people putting out flyers in a really timely fashion or providing consistent guidance to junior staff. And I just hate to admit it, but it's been very difficult for mothers to kind of be able to take on these important roles in a part time position. I'm not saying it's impossible, but definitely challenging. And sometimes other employees or the firm owner may have to pick up the slack. So as much as I am a proponent of letting mothers go part time and being flexible, as a firm owner, I understand the challenge.

G So am I saying there is no solution? No. Right now, I think what I've come to the conclusion of is that the compromise may be a mother or parent working full time, almost full time, but with some boundaries on flexibility. That is, maybe having them work 9 to 4 consistently every day so that, you know, their coworkers, their junior staff can really count on them to be there, or maybe to allow them to make other hours flexibly after the kids go to bed or on the weekend. But then that begs the question, is that fair to others who don't have children or will never have children? Can others get this kind of flexibility? And I think this is probably easier to pull off in a small firm, but we just try to cultivate a culture of trust and ownership of projects in our firm. So, for example, if an employee has built up some amount of social capital in our company, Maybe they've been having a hard time passing their exams. We've been open to arrangement where they may work more intensely during, you know, Monday through Thursday, and then be able to take some time off on Friday so that they can really focus on studying and then studying through the weekend. There's no perfect solution or formula for it, and I think it's I'm kind of shifting from talking as a mom to talking as a mom who's also a firm owner. It's a challenge as a firm owner to allow for flexibility while not making things seem unfair for others.

G But I do believe, and as I've tried different things, that there are ways to make it work across the board for mothers and other people alike.

A We have gathered 3 very special guests today to help us discuss this conversation. Christina Cho Yu is a founding partner at Atelier Cho Thompson in San Francisco and New Haven. And we also have Jennifer Matthews, who is a designer at SS and A Design Collective based in Montgomery, Alabama, and our very own Evelyn Lee, who is gonna share her perspective. And she, of course, works at Slack and works on the practice of architecture and the podcast. So welcome, everyone. We are super glad to have you here today.

G Yeah. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you. Thank you.

A I wanted to kinda start by asking you to frame from your own perspective why you think a conversation about being a mother is a diversity, equity, and inclusion related topic.

D So I can jump in on this one. I think I mean, we all know that in school, we're 50, 50% women, 50% men. You know, when trying to understand where that drop off is in women in leadership in the profession, I feel like it happens. And being a mother and and trying to raise a family while being engaged in the industry is a large part of that drop off. So when it comes to equity, diversity, and inclusion, and making sure that we maintain the female voice in the conversation. I think this is an important one to have.

A You know, I agree, Evelyn. I guess, anecdotally, what I hear from a lot of women working in the profession is that their needs are sometimes not considered. There are a lot of conversations, I think, that are private related to becoming a mother or having children or trying to even raise your children that sometimes they're not things that you can talk about in the workplace or people don't feel comfortable talking about them in the workplace, and I think indirectly, then their needs are also maybe not considered in the context of a work environment. And so trying to understand, I think, in this conversation, what is important to mothers, what should architecture firm owners be thinking about in the context of working parents, I think there's a lot to discuss that kinda goes under the radar. And I thought that not only because there's the narrative that women don't become architects because they wanna raise families and step out of the profession to do that, That's one part of it, but also for the women that stay in, which all 3 of you are still actively engaged in your careers, What is it that is happening in your careers, and what do you need in terms of support? What does that look like? So why don't we start by talking about the themes that you heard in each other's stories? What did you hear by listening to each other?

F I think, in general, just trying to tell your story and listening to everyone try to tell their story, there's nothing easy about it. I probably rerecord it, like, 10 times, each time feeling like I forgot information or just felt like I didn't say something right. And I think the saying something right stemmed from just, like, the uncertainty of even wrapping your mind around the thought of wanting to become a mother, becoming a mother, and then dealing with, like, the after postpartum and getting back into, like, the work life balance after maternity leave is over. For me, that was, you know, this whole past year. And COVID created a lot of flexibilities to work from home. Whereas I often think about, even now, like, how did moms even do this before COVID happened? Like, when we didn't have the flexibilities to work from home and it wasn't as accepted, sometimes I wonder what would I have done if I absolutely had to get out of bed every single day, drive into an office, get on the metro and go to work, like, if I was feeling great, not feeling great, whatever. And then, you know, maternity leave, like, you know, once it's over, having to go right back to the office. But I was hired as a full time remote employee, so I had a lot of flexibilities that I know most women, you know, didn't have, don't have.

F So it makes the story difficult. It made the story of me trying to tell my story difficult and still trying to wrap my mind around, like, how in the world did I do this, and how in the world did women do this before COVID happened. You know?

G Yeah. I think being a mother in architecture hasn't, like, we haven't really had the post COVID conversation about this. But if you kinda see, you know, articles written about why so many women have left architecture, the attrition has often been attributed to the lack of flexibility. And so even though a lot of moms barely survived COVID with the children under their desks at their Zooming in meetings and trying to work while they're screaming and crying in the background. Like, now the dust is starting to settle because if someone has COVID, the whole class doesn't have to quarantine for 2 weeks or whatever it used to be. The dust is starting to settle. But I think the increase in flexibility and remote work is benefiting not only mothers, but also, you know, other employees. In my recording, I actually talked a lot about that.

G Like, because I'm a firm owner, I'm very sensitive about giving special privileges to a mom just because she's a mom. And so I have to think about, like, how can I equitably extend certain privileges like flexibility or remote work to other people? And I think that that's what Ming and I have been trying to do. You know, it for example, if you are someone who will never have children, it doesn't feel fair that you're not extended those same benefits too. So as a firm owner, that's finding those benefits and privileges that could be more equitably shared across the firm has been something that I've been thinking a lot about. And so I think when I was listening to Evelyn Evelyn, I'm kinda like you. Like, I think some parents or some moms, they they love their newborn, but they do kind of crave talking with other grown ups or doing a little bit of work. And so I would say, like, there may be some women who don't wanna just full on take full time maternity leave off for 3 or 6 months or whatever you want. They might want the flexibility to take on part time work.

G And so similarly, like, someone who's having a hard time passing their ARE exams might want to, like, take Fridays off to study before their exam on Saturday or something. So I think there are other ways of offering that flexibility to people who don't wanna become parents as well or are not parents at the time.

D I mean, the one interesting thing about all of our stories and I think Christina and I have kids that are very similar in age, and we're kind of at at a similar point is is that it's a never ending story. Right? I think Jennifer, in our struggle to figure out, like, how much of the story do we tell and what part of it do we tell is because it's ever evolving and it's ever changing. And that's that's kind of the predictability of life or my ability to control my own schedules predictability or lack thereof is just definitely something that I've had to give into as, like, a parent and a mom in a way that I never really fully would have empathized with had I never have been a mother.

F I remember one of the first friend out friends I worked at, one mom was struggling and her child was sick repeatedly. She had younger children at the time, and I just I felt that because I remember sitting there like, goodness. Her child is always sick. She's always having to leave. I mean, I didn't think anything of it or about her, but I know there were others around who were just, She's just never here. She's, you know, all these things. And one thing that Evelyn definitely said is, like, you know, you just have to the empathy of just having to know that there are gonna be times where in a week at a time, like, sickness is what happened and there's nothing you can do about it. You're gonna miss this.

F You're gonna miss that. And just understanding from one mom to the next, I mean, that's how it is, especially this 1st year in daycare. There are, you know, the constant sicknesses on top of COVID exposures, on top of RSVs, on, you know, ear infections, whatever it is. It's like at least once a month, something is happening, and there's really just nothing you can do about it except do the best you can and hope that your team at work is supportive and understanding. I've been lucky enough to have that. So

A Yeah. I wanna talk about what supportive environments look like. I think, Christina, you raised a really good point around how do you create equity around this issue to support all of your team members. And so when we talk about what those policies could be and what works and what doesn't, let's frame what does it mean to have a supportive work environment for a mother.

G Yeah. I think the challenge is that some of the special circumstances or the special arrangements we've made are not codified, like, in the employee handbook. And I fully acknowledge that that's possible because we only have, I always lose track, maybe 12 or 13 people in our firm. You know? Like, what if what do you do when you're several 100 people? And I suppose even at a big firm, there are studios. But there need to be some ground rules. And, also, I'm also aware of the fact that whether it be because there's an employee who's a mom whose child is often sick or maybe you're a caretaker for a family member who has a terminal illness. You know, there yeah. There needs to be a certain amount of understanding, but also some ground rules.

G And so because as as understanding as we wanna be, at some point, this person might not be available and doing their work to the point where it kind of inconveniences and burdens those around you having to pick up the slack. So there's just always that. And I think it goes both ways. Like, as a mom or someone being a caretaker, I hate to use this word, but, like, you can't come into it entitled, expecting everyone to be understanding and work around you. At the same time, if someone on your team is going through that, you should be understanding as well. Kinda has to be both ways. I'm speaking from personal experience when I kinda felt like it wasn't.

D That's an interesting question. And, Janine, I think I would have answered it differently pre pandemic, frankly, than I would have now because everyone is ultimately desiring some level of schedule flexibility, whether that is for caretaking or not. There's just things that people wanna do other than spend, you know, the hour in a car getting to work in the hour driving home or or whatever other commute situation that you are in. When it comes to mothers in particular, I think there's just a level of empathy there. But then as a mother, I think there's a lot that especially people that are mid level managers or firm leaders that we need to learn relative to communication, right, and creating workflows and processes so so that team members still know how to react and can continue to work when we do need to step away for those instances. So, you know, going back to Christina saying, like, what is the given give and take there? So outside of maternity leave, I think people are questioning, like, like, what is return to office different for the intern than it is for somebody that's been at the firm for 10 years? Is it different for mothers than somebody that doesn't have a have a child? And I frankly, the most equitable way to approach that, I think, is to do it by job rank and descriptor. Like, it's it's a job description as part of that individual's job role and title is independent of whether or not they are a mother, whether or not they're single, but keeping in mind all the flexibility that not only mothers want, but everybody wants.

F There's a group of people at my firm actually that are dealing with, like, newborns to children through elementary school. My immediate supervisor, like, the architectural department head in a way, she has a daughter who's in 2nd grade of elementary school. There's people on our engineering side that have children in elementary school. And then I went through it with 2 other employees at the time where we all had babies at around the same time. 2 architecture and 1 was structural engineering. All of us had access to maternity leave through FMLA. I mean, it wasn't paid maternity leave or paternity leave, but we had some access to some kind of flexibility based off of the time that we could take off or had to take off. When we were preparing to go on those leaves, our department heads tried to strategically make sure that we were at a level of some kind of pass off or completion when we went on leave.

F And then when I was coming back to the firm after maternity leave, We had actually had a lot of projects put on hold by the government, so I came back in at a time where things weren't super crazy. So, you know, we had the flexibilities of being able to, you know, kinda focus on our kids a little bit more and kinda ease our way back into the project life lifestyle. And even then, our boss had paired somebody with us just in case we needed help with things. If if our kids did have needs, you know, they they were really understanding, actually. Even when we returned, one other coworker and I, the HR person, set up a lactation room that we could kinda coordinate with and lock the door, and we had a sofa and a refrigerator. And we were really fortunate to be able to have that. But I believe it was another coworker who said that she had gone through, like, you know, the pumping stages and the breastfeeding stages the year and a half prior to us. And I believe that she kinda brought it up to the HR person.

F Well, you know, I use the interiors room, but, you know, I know we have 2 people now. And I I think they kind of you know, somebody spoke up and was just like, we need this. So it happened, and that accommodation did happen. But even then, kind of as the office started to transition back into, like, working in person, they gave us the option this is everybody in our office, the option to pick how many days we wanted to come back and physically work in person. So we still got a chance to kinda be home and remote as projects were still ramping back up, which, you know, that gave me a great amount of flexibility whether it's, you know, 15 minute break in the morning or my lunch break or a 15 minute break or some kind of little break before I go pick up to either, you know, wash some clothes, some baby clothes, or sterilize some bottles and do the things that don't seem like that big, but they are big. But just having those flexibilities and still having those flexibilities to kinda just, you know, get things done. And then if your child is home I mean, the project manager I work for now, he's a guy. He has a 5 year old, and he's full time remote out of New York.

F So I'm just among a group of people who have baby stages and elementary stages still at the forefront are not so far removed that they they all understand. Even the more senior people in the firm, like, I think they're at a phase now where their kids are either going off to college or graduating college and they're in this kind of mindset in life where it's like, oh, I really miss my kids being that little, and I've I've dealt with that too. So even they understand if you have responsibilities you have to take care of. Like, I'm very lucky to have the team that I have right now that understands at that level. They check-in. They ask how things are going. They ask how your child is doing. You know? This isn't that pressing today.

F So, you know, if you need to focus on your child today, then do that. So I've been really fortunate.

A So let's talk about some of the policies that you all have implemented or you've seen implemented in your businesses that specifically support parents or mothers, are there any new policy changes that you can think of or that come to mind?

G Well, we recently, after running the numbers, of course, because it was challenging as a small firm, Ming and I decided to supplement the FMLA pay to a 100%, which is only required by law in San Francisco to companies, don't quote me on this, but I think bigger than 20 people. But, yeah, as a small firm, it's a lot of money, and it was difficult, but kind of in principle, we stood by that. I hope that one day the government will just supplement that, and it wouldn't be up to the companies to do that, especially as a small firm. But that's one big thing that we've done. Even pre COVID, we had Fridays as a remote day. So I think, again, aside from the supplemental pay, a lot of the flexibility that we've been giving, we try to do it equitably so that people who are not parents can also benefit.

A I really wanna commend you on that because that's a big deal, especially as a small business, to take that on. I had a group of women that reached out to me asking about what was standard in firms, and so that led me down this whole rabbit hole of trying to research what policies were happening in the state that I'm in, which is North Carolina. And I gotta say, unless you're a big firm, not much. And so, Christina, I think it's great to hear that Atelier Cho Thompson's stepping up to, like, offer that to your employees. More firms should be doing that.

D Now similar to Christina, there's things that we encourage mothers to do independent. So for instance, you can decide whether or not you wanna leave it as busy on your calendar or if you literally want to say, like, I am taking a break to pump milk right now. But, you know, as a returning mother to the office, like, I literally blocked off those times on my calendars, and I refused to just accept meetings at that time. So there's small things like that that we kind of encourage moms to do just to manage their schedule to be able to do the things that you need to do to take care of yourself and your baby. And the other things that we really encourage teams generally to do is to develop kind of a a team agreement. So maybe at the start of a project, if you have and this is harder if you're multi working across multiple projects. Maybe it happens higher up at at the firm level. But kind of what are the team's core working hours? So whether or not you're in the office together or whether or not you're a hybrid situation or fully remote, like, what are, like, 3 to 4 hours a day, like, from 10 to 2, which bridges lunch.

D So maybe that's a bad example, where if somebody sends an email, a text to Slack, like, they're gonna get a response immediately. So you kind of hold all of your questions for those times if you need an immediate response. And then, you know, outside of that time, it's it's okay to pose the question, but you don't necessarily expect somebody to follow-up with you immediately. So creating these environments that allows for flexibility within constraints is kind of what we're trying to set up.

G Yeah. Evelyn, I like that. Flexibility with constraints. Did you say restraints or constraints? With some ground rules. And, again, not all of this is codified in our handbook or anything, but I'm thinking, like, lately, I've realized the importance of in person time, it just isn't valuable to building rapport and trust amongst a team. And so, I mean, Jennifer's fortunate to work at a all remote place, and they seem to have, like, a really good rapport there. But I did have an incident in my office where one person had never met another person in person. And it all blew over, and it's fine now.

G But, you know, there was some tension because the only thing I could think of was that they just never met and, like, joked around or shared about their lives or, you know, whatever it is that helps build trust. And so I don't think I could ever let anyone go fully remote without having established some relationship with the team, but we do have a case where, as you know, like, a lot of schools, they end up 4, and her husband can't pick her kids up. She has to. And so what we decided was that there'd be in person time from 9 to 4, so she'd have a really solid amount of time to do, you know, whatever, Charette, direct junior staff, just build rapport. And that was, like, a reliable chunk of time on certain days each week when she would be available. And then, you know, the 1 or 2 hours outside of that, she could do at home. But I think it was important that we set that 9 to 4 period as, like, a reliable time when she would be available to everybody and be in person with us, and I think that's worked out really well.

F So just one clarifying point. I am full time remote, but for the past year since my son was born, we went back to Montgomery, Alabama where the home office is. So one benefit of being a remote employee is that they would like you to check-in so many times a year with with your home office. So for me, that's Montgomery, Alabama. For my New York project manager, that's the Knoxville, Tennessee office. So we have 3 offices. Auburn office, they're all in person. That's just how they function.

F Tennessee office, they're also all in person. So we have some rotating ways in which we engage, and we also travel a lot with the government projects. So I've traveled a bit in the past couple of months, which has which has helped me bond with with some team members too. So it's been nice to have that flexible travel.

A Mhmm. I know this is a little off topic, but I feel like a lot of people are asking or trying to figure out how to make this remote hybrid work function. And do you guys have any quick tips about what has been successful for making that work in your organizations?

G We're so small that we're sort of one group, but making sure that you're in person on the same days as people in your group. Because I've heard some firms saying, like, just come in 2 days, and then no one's there on the days that they're there. And so, effectively, it's not really working. I think also that when you do come in we were better about this earlier, but we kinda come with with an agenda for that day we're in person so that people really feel like, you know, that day in person was used as best as it could, and you were doing things that you couldn't do remotely. And so I think having that agenda where and laying it out for people so that you can stick to it and you make the most of your time together has been very helpful for us too. So intentional in person time.

D Yeah. So at Slack, we're digital first, but that we always say digital first doesn't mean ever in person. So teams are budgeting for the next business year already. So included in that budget, especially for distributed teams, is thinking about how often you bring your team together and and what that looks like. But every team at the team level is allowed to create kind of their own team agreements of how they work together. And I do know, for instance, our design team makes an attempt to come in Wednesdays, but they also make an attempt to clear their calendar of any other outside meetings on Wednesdays, and that's when they have all of their team meetings and, like, just do the things that you can only do in person on those days. Well, like today, I came in the office, and now I'm sitting in a conference room right for a couple of hours recording this podcast, which is fine, but I don't want it to be a an the norm where, like, people are just going into the office to jump on a whole bunch of Zoom calls because because that definitely is kind of a waste of a commute then. So how do you create really intentionality around those in person times? And I think building an agenda is is great in that sense.

F I think just connecting in terms of some of the platforms that you can use when working, remote. Like, right now, we are all sharing. Our cameras are turned on. We can see each other kind of talking and facial expressions. I think that's really big when working remote, but I also realized that not everyone is comfortable turning their camera on, and I definitely see that a lot in my firm. I've even seen it in the last firm that I was in when COVID first kinda started. But, I mean, not everybody is comfortable with it, but you feel so much more connected, I feel like, when you can see the person you're talking to. So that's a big help, but also tools like Teams and having all of those kind of, you know, live platforms where if you make a a change or an edit, you know, it happens instantly or like Bluebeam where you have a session and you can upload documents and everybody can kinda work in it simultaneously.

F So I think your tools are are just as important as the capabilities of, like, screen share and, you know, turning your camera on. That's been really helpful.

D Yeah. I wanna piggyback off of that. I think it's also important when you have, like, the teams or when you use Slack that you also have a space for the work, but space for the socialization that you would normally have in the office. So we have a whole workspace dedicated to social channels. There's one called Parentland that's in there for parents, and then somebody else started up one that is called, like, my kids are screaming. You know? And it's like people go in there and post, like, whatever ridiculous thing that their kids are yelling about. Like, my kid asked for a ham and sandwich, and I gave him a ham and cheese sandwich. And then they wanted they wanted a slice of pizza.

D So and they're screaming. So it's literally I guess, like, yeah, my kids are yelling or my kids are screaming, but it's allowing for those moments to happen. We interviewed Helen earlier in on the podcast, and Helen and I realized that we had been talking throughout the pandemic, both kind of informally and and professionally on Zoom. And we've never actually met one another in person, and we live, like, less than 2 miles away from one another. But it was the pandemic, so at the time, you know, we were all all in our own little bubble. But it you can form genuine relationships through the tools, but I think you have to set them up in a right way to make it successful. No work is always about work. So how do you allow for those social moments to happen no matter where people are working?

A I don't have children, just to preface that. Like, to frame the conversation, I I haven't gotten to a point where I feel, like, confident enough in making that decision, and it is something that, like, I feel a little bit overwhelmed about, to be totally honest. I

D don't know if you'll ever be confident enough to make that.

A I don't know that I'll ever be confident enough.

D Not because you lack confidence. Just because I don't think you're ever fully prepared until

F Right. Right. Mm-mm.

A That's what a lot of people have told me, you know, like, you just jump in at some point, and I guess well, I don't know. You know, some days I'm just like, man, I can barely just take care of myself, so how could I possibly bring a little kid into the world and, you know, I but one thing that Evelyn, you and I talk about a lot when we're offline, it's funny because, like, I don't think a lot of people get to see you interacting with your 2 kiddos, but, like, in between us recording, I, like, see Kenley and Aiden all the time in the background of the Zoom calls and stuff. And they're a major

G part of your life, and so we

A talk about, like basically, I think how much you change as a parent once you go through this process from the initial pregnancy to you have the child, and then you've got the first period of the year where you're trying to figure out what you're doing, and then, you know, to now where you are now, both Evelyn and Christina, you have young children that they can make decisions on their own, and you kinda have to, like, navigate that relationship in a little bit different way than when they they can't take care of themselves in any way, shape, or form. So I wanted to talk about how that transformation has happened for each of you, and, like, what have you noticed that you've changed? What has been good or challenging about that?

F I think for me, I mean, like Evelyn said, like, you're really never prepared. In my mind, like, like, my husband and I, I knew there was a time period or a time frame or a time or an age that I didn't really wanna go beyond. So I knew that, and I knew, like, I was approaching the age, and we were just like, okay. You know, when it happens, it happens. We'll be happy. We're excited. It happened. And you try to prepare as best as you can, but you really you're just, like, almost spinning your wheels, and then you actually just react after the baby comes and and you spend time reacting.

F But for me, I think it just took me a little while to just, like, really have that level of, like, of a bond, I guess you can say, and just, like, meshing with with Kai. That's my little boy's name. And I think a lot of that actually really kicked in when maternity leave was over. I spent 9 weeks at home with him. And, you know, at that point, it's just like, alright. This is my baby. I'm taking care of him. I'm doing all the things I need to, breastfeeding, pumping, all these things, and then it's like, boom.

F Okay. I gotta go back to work. And now it's just like, oh, no. What do you mean I have to leave my baby? And I think that automatically in my mind, like like a switch came on where it's just like, what do you mean I have to leave him now? Or, you know, who's gonna take care of him the way that I'm taking care of him? Luckily, I had a family member who kept him from months 3 to 6, but then daycare was a whole other, like, switch where it's just like me, I have to trust a stranger to take care of my baby. Like, I went through all of those phases, and it's never easy. Never easy at all to, like, I think, make those transitions from one thing to the next. Even now in starting a new day care, it's like all these, you know, things, all these emotions, and then trying to balance that with work every day and trying to maintain this, like, mental capacity of, alright. I have all these checklist things I need to do before pickup, or I need to pick these things up on the way of picking him up in addition to all these team meetings that need to happen.

F And then these deadlines that have to happen is, like, maintain some kind of, like, just way of life balance, consistency, still wanting to be, like, that dependable team member for work, but at the same time still being kinda super mom and, like, trying to lean on my husband to do things too. I don't think there's a perfect way of any of it happening, but I really have to take it a day at a time. I think somebody a while back said, you know, you just have to embrace the chaos. And literally, like, I have to embrace the chaos to not make myself crazy. Like, I take it a day at a time, a week at a time, and whatever is

A kind of, like, dealt

E in my cards for that week.

F I have to do it. And now as projects are picking back up, I'm having to, you know, do work sometimes at night after he goes to sleep, especially if he gets sick. Like, when he goes to sleep at night, 8 PM, you know, I may have to pick up a book. I may have to pick up, you know, and email people back, and that's just kind of how, like, my last

D That's that's actually my favorite time to work. It's, like, literally, like, 10 AM. It's 1 PM to, like, 2 AM.

F Yeah. I'd probably say very fortunate to have been eased into this point now in life where now it's becoming, like, my probably most peaceful time of functioning. Even though I have the work day, I still feel like it's still such a scramble because everybody needs something. So that's just kinda how I function right now, and it's kinda almost be accepted. And somebody in my at our last firm told me that. She's like, the best work I do is after my kid goes to sleep at night. And I, for the life of me, I was like, I don't even know how you function at that time. Well, I'm here now, and it's I'm functioning probably better than any other hour of the day.

F So that's me. Well, I

G think as architects, you like things orderly. You kinda have to let go of that as I look at Legos and art supplies all over the ground right here. But all kidding aside, this might be because I'm a firm owner, but, you know, as much as I have flexibility, I'm kind of, like, always working because there's always something I need to deal with that I remember on the weekends or at nighttime. And so I realized that I've had to find creative ways to integrate

D my children into work. I don't know if that's a good thing

G to say I do. But, you know, like, I try to be present for my children. But at the same time, especially as they get older, I think there is some benefit to not shielding them completely from what I do at work. Because my mom was a working mom. She was an anesthesiologist, and all her office stuff was in this cottage next to our house. And so there are sometimes she would have me, like, write checks and endorse checks. And I don't know. That kinda set me up for life in a good way.

G And, also, she showed me that it was possible to be this, like, successful working mom in a very demanding career. Like, she was, like, the only minority and woman in her group. All the challenges she faced, that's, like, another podcast. But she showed me that it was possible to, like, integrate me into some aspects of her work. And as a result, I have to say, like, I feel like that's why I used to be a structural engineer. There weren't that many women in it. Probably seeing her do what she did gave me confidence to enter into this male dominated field and know I could do it. And so I'm not afraid, you know, like, actually, I employ my daughter.

G After school, she not every day, but sometimes she, like, sorts the product library. She endorses checks for me. She sweeps. And I think that builds a work ethic and sense of responsibility at an early age. And so the generation before us, they say that there was a lot of helicopter parenting and and the parents nowadays are trying to help their kids become more independent. And so I think that a little bit of integration into your work actually benefits them. So I'm trying to find ways to do that. And it's okay for them to watch me do a Zoom at home.

G Like, they can learn about how to interact with professionals. Yeah. So I don't totally turn off and and shield them from work, but I do try to be present.

D I have very distinct memories. When I was younger, my dad would travel a lot, and my mom took me with her to class. She was finishing her master's, and I would literally just be sitting in the student lounge while she was in class doing classes. And I think that had a big a big impact in kind of my own work ethic or the perception that, yeah, like, it's okay to to work and be a mom. But, yeah, perfectionism, I think, definitely falls aside my how I prioritize things in the day. Like, if I absolutely need to get something done, I block off focus time on my calendar, and I make sure I get it done while my kids have childcare. So whether that's at school, we just transitioned to an au pair, which has actually been a wonderful transition for us. The other thing that my husband and I have been doing more often too also because of our au pair, frankly, is finding time away from our kids to kind of enjoy our relationship with greater intention than we ever did before.

D I think when you're childless, it's very easy to kind of go through the work week and then, you know, on the weekend, be like, hey. What do you wanna go do and hang out together? And when you're a homeowner dealing with home maintenance and everything that comes with that on top of having 2 kids and literally having your schedule filled with, we have soccer on Saturday and a birthday party on Sunday, then we needed to be a lot more intentional about just finding time to spend with our ourselves too as adults to build that relationship.

A That's a good point, Evelyn. And you had a house guest, your podcast partner. Let's close this conversation out by talking about any advice that you'd give to other parents navigating a career in architecture. What words of wisdom can you share with them as they are navigating this journey for themselves?

D This podcast has made me realize I had a very isolated moment when I decided to leave architecture. I also, in kinda telling my story, realized that I felt like I didn't have anything, anyone to talk to about becoming a new mom. I feel like that's less the case now. There's a whole Mothers in Architecture group on Facebook where people can reach out and ask all sorts of questions. There's a lot more people that I know that are that have managed to do FMLA and what that means. There's a lot more firms like Joe Thompson that are sending examples of what it means to actually have a maternity leave. So I would say don't be afraid to reach out your into your community. And there's even people who aren't quite ready to be a mom, but want to ask questions of mothers and that mother in architecture's group on Facebook.

D So so it's a it's a very welcoming community.

F I would say that there are many ways you can't prepare for, but at the same time, there are ways you can kind of wrap your mind around certain things. For me, I had to learn through seeing a coworker go through calculating FMLA. This was probably about a year and a half before I had Kai, and I just remember sitting next to her. And she was telling me that she didn't have a lot of leave to take off, and she had just missed the window for the firm bringing in an Aflac short short term disability policy in which she could claim to help out with bills and things like that when she went on maternity leave. So she was literally sitting there, and I did the same thing. You sit there and you calculate your leave down to, like, the last half hour before you can take unpaid leave. That was one very eye opening thing for me to sit there and calculate so much time to try to see how much time I could spend with a newborn. At the same time, just, you know, mentally wrapping my head around.

F And I at Affirm that I foresee myself staying in and connecting with as far as their, you know, their mission, their vision, and their support for their employees the way that I would want them to when I have a child, a newborn child at that. Those are some things that I didn't really think about, like, months before, you know, even becoming pregnant, but very reality checks and real things of considerations once I was pregnant. Again, I was fortunate. I I did join a firm that was very supportive, and I did learn through a coworker that there was and are these policies out there that exist that do help out when you go on unpaid leave? So that was very helpful. I think, you know, just taking a step back and just thinking about, like, your current, you know, where are you, you you know, at a place you wanna be that's supportive? Do you have the policies in place that will allow you the time to bond with your your child and, you know, that gives you that amount of time that you want away from the office. Is everybody in the background supportive of that and trying to maneuver through new parenting? Those are 2 really big things that I would definitely tell any woman in architecture, any person in architecture, for that matter, mom, dad, whoever that parent person may be, but very big considerations that I wish I would have had, like, just the inkling about before.

G I think the only set of advice I'm thinking of is maybe more for firm owners, if that's okay. I think providing a bit of flexibility, not only to moms but to other people, will help your retention rate. And there's nothing as inefficient as a lot of turnover in your firm. And so I think kind of shifting your mindset towards that is wise.

F One thing I forgot is, in general, employees, you know, in this day and age, when you have to take care of your business, like, you just have to take care of it no matter who you are. If you're a architectural designer, PA, principal, whoever, Like, if you have something that's important to you to do and you leave and go do it, you know, and you block out that time on your calendar, I'm not available. I'm not here. You know, that's a thing. But I feel like, you know, as a a new parent, new mom, whoever you feel like you have to go, like, this extra distance, distance, extra beyond. Will I have to sacrifice these things? I can't go to these things to support my children or whatever. And I had a very big reminder from my boss' mentor right now where she was like, well, you know, I noticed so and so. Every week, every Wednesday, this person goes and they go to soccer practice.

F And, you know, they leave at 4 o'clock to go do that, and that's what they do. And I'm sitting here, like, crunching on my my keyboard and trying to, like, speed things up and do all these things and get it in so I can feel like I can step away from my computer to go to gymnastics. And I'm just like, well, why am I doing that? Like, this person, this is important to them and they just go do it. Why am I sitting here guilt tripping myself for something that's important to my child and to me when, you know, work is always gonna be there. It'll be there tonight, it'll be there tomorrow, but, you know, your child's memories and things, you know, they pass and they go, and your family's memories pass and go. So that was a very big thing for me to hear Somebody so high up in the firm say something like that to me. And a woman in architecture, a black woman in architecture, it was it was a very big realization for me that, you know what, firm life goes on with or without you. And, you know, you you still need to make time for yourself, your family, your children, and all the things that come with it.

F So yeah.

D It's interesting how this conversation is focused on mothers, but at the same time, we're saying, like, build in policies that support everyone. I think if you're really looking to attract and retain people over an extended period of time, you have to realize that people's lives will change over that course of time. Like, especially if you hire them when they're out of college, they get married, they have kids, like, their needs and their ability to spend time on various different things is is going to evolve and change. So make sure you're just creating policies that adapt to kind of the entire, you know, we call it a life cycle of an employee here. But in today's day and age, building in flexibility, I think, is key. And for those individuals, those firms that have started, you know, a remote process, I think everything has to be done with greater intentionality. There is real bias to those individuals that are getting face time with leaders because they're not in a remote office and they're showing up regularly. So make sure that the Jennifers of the world, you know, don't get left off the promotion conversation just because they're remote and not in the office.

D And make sure that that dual situation doesn't happen either and those biases aren't created.

G I think that's why flexibility with ground rules is important because if it's, you know, everyone must be there 9 to 4, there's not one person left out. Also, I think it's important for the people seeking flexibility to be aware of how what they're asking may affect others in the office, whether you're a mom or

A not. I think the through line on this conversation is just more two way dialogue with the partner that you're working with in the firm or the firm owner.

B You know,

A if you're trying to create a situation where you can have a family, it sounds like you need to be in an environment where you trust your employer enough to have open, transparent conversations to build a working relationship that you both can succeed in terms of getting the work done and managing what you need to get done in the office. And so I think probably my advice to people that are working for someone would be to ask yourself if you feel like that trust and that relationship and that office exists, and if not, can you build it? And if not, maybe you need to go somewhere else. And for the employer, I would say to not treat someone who's pregnant differently, but to engage them in a meaningful conversation that demonstrates that you care and that you're invested in that person staying at your firm and trying to find solutions that help support that person but also doesn't make that person feel alienated or isolated, which I think is a theme that is pretty consistent with our show. Thank you very much for doing all this work with us.

D Thank you so much for participating.

F Thank you. Bye.

G Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks, everybody.

A Alright. Bye, all. Alright. Bye.

G Bye.

B Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture dot com/podcast.

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C Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.