The Design for Freedom Movement

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. So I was very recently introduced to our next guest, Sharon Prince, CEO of Grace Farms through a mutual friend of ours from ASLAP who really thought Practice Disrupted would be a wonderful platform to show what they are doing with their design for freedom initiative. The initiative is taking a look at sustainability and equity, the 2 core focuses within the AIA strategic plan, by looking at really the entire life cycle of procurement and materials and specifications more holistically than I've seen any other group doing, including the labor that it takes to harvest and manufacture and deliver our building materials.

B This is an area that I feel large corporations get a lot of flack about. Now Nike comes to mind immediately, as well as others in the fashion industry, but 1 that relatively goes unnoticed until now within the building industry.

A And we know Sharon was with us in Chicago. She gave a presentation at a 22 when AIA was last together, as a large group. And so I know a lot of you may have heard the initial story about Grace Farms, and today we're gonna go deeper and hear all about it and all of the education supporting the mission driven work that they're doing. So we're very, very excited to have you, Sharon. Why don't you kick this conversation off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

C First of all, hello, Evelyn and Jen. It is so great to speak with you today as fellow and leading disruptors. I've been so looking forward to this conversation. I'm Sharon Prince. I'm founder and CEO of Grace Farms Foundation. And we are leading as an institution, the design for freedom movement, which does need leading disruptors as you you talked about just a minute ago, this to create radical paradigm shift. That where we're going to first illuminate, that's what we're doing now, and then to remove forced labor from our building materials supply chain. So we are connecting dots, servicing facts, proposing strategies to hold leaders of the full ecosystem of built environment accountable.

C So this podcast is right in my lane, and I'm, eager to, you know, to really engage your your audience as well.

B I think our listeners would love to hear a little bit more about Grace Farms. Why has it taken on this call within the building industry, specifically, and the kind of the evolution of that story from your lens?

C Unlike other projects that are built for existing institutions, the foundation was created when we opened Grace Farms in 2015. So this is just the opposite of the norm and quite aspirational, particularly risky since there's no preexisting model. And the concept for Grace Farm started with this idea that space communicates, which an architect friend of mine shared with me about 15 years ago while working on my former business. So that led us to consider if space could communicate a set of values, could it draw a diverse community together locally and globally by creating a platform to advance good in the world? So could architecture be generative over 100 of years? Like, what could architecture do that other means and methods to or, you know, ways to advance good in the world could do? So then, you know, then we start to think about what are the common denominators among us that would contribute to human flourishing. So the design of Grace Farms in the landscape are together helping to create a peaceful respite and foster this active community. It's quite intentional and fundamental to our interdisciplinary humanitarian mission where we're weaving 5 initiatives, nature, arts, justice, community, and faith, and now design for freedom. So our stake in the ground is to end modern day slavery and gender based violence and to create more grace and peace in our local and global communities.

A And I would say that your building is very beautiful. Like, from an architectural standpoint, it is just a it is peaceful. It is calming, and I love hearing you talk about how you're connecting the values of your organization to your building in the in the context of the site. We wanna talk a little bit about the growth that your organization's gone through because it's it's grown quite a bit. And, can you tell us a little bit about the trajectory of that growth?

C Yeah. So I think it's it's first important to start with, like, how how do you it's first let's go back to this. I think we should first know how important it is in when you're initializing starting an organization in a space. So and actually, please stop for a minute. I'm gonna go back. I probably should describe I didn't even talk about Sony yet. So let me just do that for a minute. Okay? So Kazuyo Sejima and Ryuhei Nishizawa, a sauna enabled us to create a new type of public space.

C So a hopeful space to address pressing humanitarian issues where the architecture would become part of the landscape. And since you have you've you've been to Grace Farms. Right? The river building offers 360 degree views of the landscape and the changing seasons, which evoke new perspectives, evokes curiosity, and initializes an ambulatory experience that has both social and spiritual potential. And it was interesting because we asked them to create this porous membrane. That was back in 2010. And now the term is just porous. But back then, people were like, what is a porous membrane? What are you talking about? And they are as you well know, that they are very, very dept at being able to create spaces where people can flow in and out of the porous architecture that can break down barriers between, you know, people and sectors, nature, architecture, and and what we ask for is a place that could create these new outcomes. So then in terms of how our our organization has grown, I think it's important to start off with how you, who you bring on board.

C So that would be you know, first, we couldn't have done what we've done without Sejima Nishizawa, having the right partners and also having a similar mindset and ethos. We've been committed to creating gender and racial equity with our teams. So that that really did start with the design team, construction. It just carries through to our full team who you have to have that kind of team who can actually create the three-dimensional expression of it. But also then when we start to create our own team to operate Grace Farms. So we have now this very entrepreneurial, nimble team with this like minded ethos to build Grace Farms together. Chelsea Thatcher has been my partner in envisioning what can be as our creative director and chief advancement officer. And then now Sherry Sweeney, our COO, came on board, rate the onset of the pandemic and has helped us to be this humanitarian hub during the pandemic, which I can describe later.

C It was pretty incredible to, you know, being nimble is part of what we do. But it would that was that really was AAA really challenging time, and our team now has grown to nearly 100. And each person on our team now feel and are part of Design for Freedom movement, are designed for are part of how we welcome people, the work that we do. And and, thankfully, people have you know, you don't know if people are going to come. Thankfully, they have, locally and globally, and have had their own or collective experience. We've had hundreds of artists like Carrie Mae Weems, Melvin Ailey, poet laureate, Tracy k Smith, nonprofit organizations like the UN, including UN University, UN Women, government entities, h homeland security investigations, state department scholars. I mean, it just goes you know, we just have this phenomenal group of people within the full ecosystem of the built environment and just, you know, just with humanity that have been adding to the DNA of Grace Farms.

B So Grace Farms is bringing together this collective of people. So how how did it pivot during the pandemic when it was much harder to bring people together to have those the the dialogue and discourse that you're seeking?

C So at the onset of the pandemic, when PPE was really scarce, even for frontline health care workers and food insecurity was on the rise. Grace Farms here, we pivoted our entire operation. We closed and then kept our teams on in the comments to to prepare meals literally from day 1. And within our community, which is very hard as you know for even to keep staff on in the to prepare meals. And then 2, 000 and 20, we converted Grace Farms into this essential pace place of business. And by April 1st, we filled the life saving n 95 respirator gap for all of Connecticut and distributed it's a little over 2, 000, 000 PPE. It was really, as you know, harrowing. It was around the clock effort.

C We were, you know, we're able to source, secure, and donate of those 2, 000, 000 PPE, 500, 000 n95s to all of the, you know, the local hospitals. And there's a whole community effort because we've been invested in supply chains, understanding them, invest in our community, and also because you just the the the MO here is really just gonna say yes, then figure out how to do it. So it was on a Zoom call that I said, we're going to get these n 90 fives for the states. And I actually did not know how long I mean, how difficult that would be. And then everybody has to rally, which we did. So, it was a it's a it's really it's an informative time too for how we reemerged in September this year. And Design for Freedom was part of that too. Even during that during the crisis last 2 years, we also formally launched Design for Freedom at the same time with the report it in October of 2020.

C So we have we were working really, quite quite urgently during COVID. In the past, we're still not out of it, but during the most pressing time.

B The interesting thing about Design for Freedom, like I said, is that it really goes into the labor that it takes to procure all of our materials. So when, you know and this is an area when you talk about sustainability, we always talk about savings, you know, reducing our carbon footprint. Were the architects you're working with, did they know of of these procurement policies? Like, how did how did you go about discovering this particular, issue within the building industry?

C Right. So I've been aware of the entropic crucial human rights violation of modern slavery for about 20 years. And through our work since we opened, that was that commitment from, you know, from our opening to address it and our commitment to architecture. So through our work, convenings from from when we opened, architecture and justice had been in proximity to each other at Grace Farms. So several years ago, I connect the dots that began with ethical transparency and conscious consumerism in food and clothing. Next I am, we are proposing that shelter also be accountable to its mammoth material supply chain. And 1 thing to note is that all buildings, including Grace Farms, around the globe are built with materials that have a high risk of force and child labor. So not 1 modern building can be certified without force labor and its thousands of materials, and in fact, rarely a few of those materials.

C So this all yeah. This epiphany happened while I was on a national jury with the AIA in late 2017 to evaluate projects around the world. And 1 project was in a hot spot. It was a girls' school. And we were looking at the sustainability of the various buildings, but did not prioritize social sustainability, social equity. And so I asked the question whether the bricks for the school construction were made without forced labor, and I was met with silence. So I, you know, quickly learned that while environmental sustainability had been prioritized, there was no discussion of the ethical inspection of the building material supply chain. You know, once I realized it, once you know, you can't unknow it, so I quickly went to everyone that I had worked with on Grace Farms.

C I went quickly to the AIA president to inform them, created and started to create a working group with the late and incredible William Mencky Bill Mencky from and founder of The Architects newspaper. And he agreed that, you know, and astonished himself that there had been you know, there there's been a labor transparency within this, you know, the large industrialized sector in the world that is also at the highest risk of person child labor.

A That is shocking and I don't think it's something that is discussed enough in architecture firms or even in the idea of specking materials. Like, we talk a lot about selection of materials that are regional to reduce the carbon footprint of transporting those materials, but the idea of tracing it back and following the supply chain back to the origin of the material to understand how it is acquired or created. Can you give us a couple of other materials that come to mind in addition to brick, as a material that's high risk for this?

C Well, what happened at the very beginning is that there was no list of material. Not as our labor transparency passes, but there's very little data point that had been brought together. So when we create the report and it was within we've also established the working group that started with a dozen of us is now 80 within the full ecosystem of the built environment. That enables us to have validity and credibility to understand you know, to really pull all the pieces together. And we identified 12 materials that include all the basic materials of a building, whether it be timber, textiles, stone, polysilicon that go into our solar panels. We talk more in-depth about those in our newly released Design for Freedom toolkit. These are all online, open source, and it's it's super important to understand that literally no 1 acknowledged this early on. And so the work that needs to be done is the limp in us.

C We have but we are literally making progress right now. And what's exciting about this conversation is those that are listening now know. Once you know, you cannot unknow it, and we do have agency. So we wanna first expand the definition of sustainability. So when we say sustainability, it needs to include ethical and social sustainability. And they, you know, this is how repair begins, how we can really imagine and create a more humane future through car architecture. How often are you able to do what you do and have this kind of humanitarian impact? So slavery is the most extreme form of inequity. And there is this extreme violation of human dignity, safety, and welfare.

C It proliferates today without any accountability. So design for freedom is a call to action to repair, to create an ethics based built environment, you have to connect the operations to people and materiality. And what's the the main thing people can do is really is what initialize the whole movement is inquire. Is your building ethically sourced and sustainably designed? Right now, we don't know. And there's a startling, you know, startling blind spot right now. And we need to do that particularly even with a sustainable lens because the embeds you know, we're looking at embedded carbon, but we're not at the same time, we could be and should be adding labor inputs so that we're also acknowledging that that is suffering that is built into our construction.

B I would imagine that our listeners can hear your passion and enthusiasm in your voice. I mean, I'm definitely I'm definitely hearing it. You this is an area that you've been, you know, forced labor is something that you've been looking at for over 20 over 2 decades now. What is your interest particularly in space and architecture? Because you don't have an architecture background. So so make that connection for us.

C I believe in the power of of more, of having us all engage in a to me, it's the most egregious violation of of social inequities that has been going on and on her so little and such a weak response. So it can only happen. I just it's it's it's very clear to me that architecture itself with the sheer weight of it, the number of people that are involved in a project, that really has the rare opportunity to actually reduce and hopefully and reduce, disrupt so we're talking about modern day slavery unlike any other avenue. It's really interesting because the green building movement, we have that as a muscle memory within the building industry. We've seen what that is produced, right, in terms of our environmental consciousness of what we of what and how we build. Still a long way to go. But the ability now to shift the marketplace towards ethical suppliers and manufacturers, extractors, transporters is significant. And and we see coupled with laws that are merging.

C So I can give you examples of how that's happening right now. Right at the at the nexus of of sustainability, environmental sustainability, and this effort to of design for freedom because solar panels are something that is a is a means and method for addressing the climate crisis and yet it's being subsidized by forced and child labor at the same time. What's happened is that we have the Uyghur Forced Labor Protection Act that's gone into effect in June that disallows any entry of any products made within the Uighur region, you know, to come into United States. And so just a few weeks ago, 3 gigawatts, which would be about 1 sixth of the anticipated installation of solar panels was seized at the border. So the disruption within the solar industry is happening. I talked about this last year not knowing that the Uyghur Forced Air Protection Act would come into effect or even be proposed. But what I did know is that we also have the Trade Facilitation and Enforcement Act that most people do not know about, which does require verification of all materials that are brought into United States to have fair labor. And what that means is that if you're asked at the border for that verification, you need to produce it.

C And given that there's there's a lack of capacity to test every firm documentation on every shipment, it's it's not there's hasn't been as much of a, enforcement capacity to do so. However, with the weaker forested protection act, there is. It's the difference is that you have to prove that fair labor documentation at the border.

B Grace Farms was founded on this idea of space. Where is Grace Farms located? And if I wanna hold an event at Grace Farms to help with this dialogue, how do I do that?

C K. So we're about an hour north of New York City in New Canaan, Connecticut, and we are free and open to the public. We do hold, you know, different types of events that have a full range, and we but we do this all in partnership. So we're not a place that rents it out for other folks. We partner with many organizations. And for you, you disruptors, we can there's plenty to, you know, to come and attend and be a part of and to help shape, actually. So we have a Design for Freedom summit now that we just had or initialized our we had our 1st inaugural summit in March, and we're going to hold our second this coming March 2023, 30th. We have both the Earth Equity and Landscape Forum that in introduces both it talks about both the importance of ethically sustainably maintaining our landscapes as well as the products and materials we put into our landscapes, and that forum will be in May.

C And then we have every day when you come to Grace Farms, everyone, the public this is the beauty of it. We have the public here who are a big part of Design for Freedom to, you know, really initialize the demand. But also, I guess that's a big part of it. We have programs every day, top up programs, that people can choose to be a part of. There's a library. We have a library where we have, you know, plenty of books, but we also have the report toolkit that everyone can use within this industry. That's the main the the the 1 of the very easy things, the first things to do is to just To

B download that.

C To download it. Exactly. And design for fame.org website has that as well and use it. So the very easy thing to do too, use the toolkit, but also start to ask your suppliers when you're they're meeting with you to give you the, you know, to give the certifications that they're using that are relevant to design for freedom that have third party audited labor requirements. And we list those in the toolkit too so they, you know, you can cross check those. And to use material circularity because that truncates the supply chain that that were at the stream where it's at the highest risk of exploitation. And there is a we have a newsletter. It's like a separate newsletter.

C There's, like, lots of ways. But they the the main thing is that everyone can really investigate 1 material, 1 chair, 1 item, and that will mean a lot. We've already seen that happen. When conversations start to ensue, that starts to trigger a, a mind that and understand this is important. And everyone on this call has that agency, which is really important and exciting.

A So if I'm a designer or an architect in my office right now listening to this podcast, thinking about, wow, I need to take action on this and I'm gonna go download the toolkit, Where do they start with actually applying it? So you're I'm hearing you say that they can go research a material. So let's say their project has, a high use of brick in it as a key material. Is it that you all are offering a database they can look to, or is it that they can also be part of the research towards finding solutions?

C Yes. These are early days, so research is important. But we do have that we've listed those 12 materials, and you'll learn about the hot spots, what those materials that composites are made of. Let's say with timber that FSC certified wood that you might already put into a project to achieve sustainable goals, actually also just added late poor labor requirements. So now you can even propose it's actually beneficial to know which of the certifications also add ethically sourced ethically sourced materials because you can let your clients know or your teams know that they can invest in these sustainable products and also achieve design for freedom principles at the same time. In the in the toolkit, there's also letters that you can send out to suppliers. There is a questionnaire. So you're there no one's alone on this.

C They're all together on it. And, the material tracking spreadsheet is available, downloadable, specifications that were created with Gensler, Bill Dubois, who's the construction specifier there, and others that were part of a sub team. Those could be added to your specs. It's a very similar process that you might be already undertaking for other cert you know, environmental certifications. So, again, we don't wanna create a separate lane for design for freedom. It's additive to all the sustainable means and methods at this time.

B Yeah. This is something I I just thought about it. I was like, this is this is a toolkit that I need to get in front of the Roos team at Salesforce, actually, because we just made sustainability 1 of our core values at Salesforce. So I should hope that ex extends equity as well. So we'll put all of the links that you've been talking about down in our show notes so it's very easy for everyone to find. We do have some younger listeners that are, you know, looking to be practice disruptors as they grow into leadership. So are there other ways that are your younger listeners, those that I would say maybe even struggle with managing up can can contribute to the conversation, and bring it forward to their leadership?

C I love this question so much because we've been I've been talking now and guest lecturing in many universities of over a dozen. And it's 1 of my favorite things because as a new architect design professional, it takes years in architecture. I know that to be able to have an immediate impact, let's say. This it by now by really investing time to understand design for freedom and the capacity that you might have in an organization, you're bringing something to the table that the organization most likely has not been informed about. And and this is something that reduces business risk. It reduces legal risk. It reduces, reputational risk by instituting into an an organization and increases humanitarian value. It's it's just it's it's really, I I believe, a very strong gift to any institution you might bring it to, you know, bring this to and you have agency.

C So it's not it was interesting too is, if you're an architect, there's a you have the responsibility to uphold the, you know, many of the the ethical pledges you're already committed to. And this is 1 that's just has not been recognized, but really folds into those lanes. And I have not encountered anyone, who said that it had had they would ignore it again. Might try to struggle with how to to integrate this into operations. But as a as a young professional, it's a it's really something that I hope and have seen people start to do their own research, be able to bring to organizations themselves. We're also putting into place within our I mean, I think it's such as the universities and young professionals right now to me are the ones who are going to be able to carry this forward as we're developing new technologies and also to make this a non negotiable. It's just, you know, it can it's it's really all you young professionals are such an important part of Design for Freedom as a movement.

A Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I was gonna ask about the pilot projects that you guys are running right now and and what those are and what they look like and what stage of the process they're

C at. So pilot projects are the next step, the design for freedom movement. Nothing replaces doing the work in real time. So the goal of the pilot project is to raise awareness, demonstrate design for freedom principles and action, and then add to the body of industry data. So we've, we've we have now 5 international projects, a couple in the United States, and then also 2 so 1 in, London, the Serpentine Pavilion that opened in June. We're going to be held we held a convening also on June 12th there to on on the UN World Day Against Child Labour and helped to really helped to activate a number of the design community and activists and so forth in London. We're going to hold another ethical action community meeting on September 29th there. So you can see that we're looking for pilot projects that are publicly avail publicly open.

C Probably a million will see all these pilot projects within the next year. And then also add to the capacity to inform, you know, and have awareness opportunities, but also start to activate teams. So the new Canon library, which is a local 1 right here in New Canaan, became on board, has been designed by Centerbrook Architects, but also constructed by Turner. Now Turner is a committed partner. Incredible. Right? They have 10% of the industry and they're committed to really put into practice design for freedom principles. And there's more talk about that in the future. So it's not just 1 prod you know, these kind of projects have a cascading effect.

C Now when Turner has a working group working on it and Arup, you know, might have a working group on it and then, you know, their own when they're initializing these responses themselves by knowing how important it is in the capacity they have. So the projects that are in India have and I've been just I was just in India last a couple months ago and there's more emerging there where there's it's a pretty bold move and for industrialists that are so so we have that are there in the country as owners to be committed to design for freedom, and they're doing it with fervency. It's it's you know, it takes these early early doctors, takes boldness for people to move forward with this, and there's more to come, which is exciting. And can I just the pilot project outcomes already? So each of the pilot projects and what is completed has a brief attached to it that would be open source as well. So if you go online right now, you'll see a very trim, but it's it's a overview of the Serpentine Pavillion's examination of their supply chain. You'll see 16 products that examined the country of origin, the certifications that were used, starting to build that. We're not going to, at this point, have a design for freedom database. We want to be able to what we're doing is adding Design for Freedom filters with other partners like mindful materials, material bank, and others.

C So that it doesn't become onerous also to practitioners that already have so many, you know, responsibilities in terms of sustainability. So that is also another step is to formalize those those partnerships and add the filters, which is emerging right now. SustainChain is another 1, the US SustainChain is data platform that will enable all of those on this call and so forth in the future. We're announcing that soon. How we're activating that. So there's a platform for everyone to engage with. So it's creating, you know, other avenues where that exist and then add design for freedom to them.

A I thought we could talk a little bit about the supply chain itself, and you mentioned people earlier and just taking that idea all the way back to the source because I I'm not sure everyone of our listeners will understand the concept of supply chain. There is so much emphasis on the design part where you pick the material or you pick the product and you select it. But let's actually walk it back and talk about what supply chain is. Can you describe that for us and take it down to the, original source?

C 1st, I think it's important to describe forced labor within construction. There's 2 halves of the equation. 1 is on-site labor that most people are aware of that you need you know, that's why there's unions and oversight on-site. The other half of the equation is material procurement, and that is the half that has been ignored. So material procurement is includes the materials at extraction at extraction level, which is the term is upstream from where you are from the web from the job site. So if you even more simply, look at it like this. You have the construction site. We're looking to move the perimeter beyond the construction site that goes right to the level of extraction, which would be at the forest, in the mines, and, air culturally, let's say for cotton and other, textiles.

C So that's the level of extraction, and that is where there where there's the highest risk of hoarse and child labor. And the reason for that is there are hazardous conditions there at those sites, and there is, in some of the hot spot areas, lack of oversight. Then it starts to also when you start within the construction sector, have a number of brokers, subcontractors. It's a very disaggregated, industry. And so the transparency from that extraction level to the job site is opaque. The from extraction upstream, then you need to transport it. So from harvest or mining, then you need to transport it. That's where forced labor and child forced labor can still exist.

C And then transport it, and then you might be having to smell it and manufacture it, and then transport it again. And it, again, moves throughout the global marketplace. And, therefore, then it then it ends up within the manufacturing of other materials. So there's commingling on materials that make it difficult also to identify the materials that they've never been prioritized to inspect those materials. So they're commingled. And then they end up in other composite like, let's say, HVAC systems and lighting. Very difficult. Right? And then they end up at your job site.

C So you can see that there is a it's a long supply chain disaggregated, and it's also part of that supply chain that's important to note is that when you design a building, you are you actually do have a through line to those materials. Because if you are asking for a certain type of material, they might only come from a certain place. Right now, if you're asking for a solar panel, it's going to the polysilicon, 85% of it comes from China and 45%, 50% from the region. And, you know, there's the the rare woods, you know, they where do they come from? They come from a lot of those, again, that'd be Peru, Brazil, and so forth. And then you look for those areas where there's a then in those areas, there might be a lack of oversight, even though there's laws that exist. That's the other thing that's really surprising is there's within the whole with every country, there's laws that exist against slavery. And yet, it goes within I know it still continues with quite often with impunity. So that's the supply chain.

A The other thing that you mentioned that I I thought was really interesting is the idea of the 3rd party reviewer. I think it's really smart that you're getting the construction industry involved. So having a partner like Turner, when they start to identify the different providers of these materials that that qualify, then they grow this list and knowledge of, sources they they can return to when they're they're putting this into the the building itself. But the idea of a 3rd party reviewer, tell us more about that. That sounds really intriguing.

C Yeah. So that maybe I should define what that is. A third party labor auditor is a is different than Turner. So 3rd party auditing means that you cannot audit the materials for force and child labor yourself. You have to hire an auditor who goes through a process to determine whether passports were withheld, were there brokers involved to, ensure that there is payment on time to workers, paid a fair wage. Those are separate companies that do that inspection that are not related to the manufacturer. Basically, we're we're aiming to shift the largest restaurant sector in the world towards ethical care labor sourcing, and we're gonna continue to figure out how to do that and leverage all of our capacity. That's that's the aim.

C And get it onto the agenda for of the a actually, we wanna get design for freedom on the ACE agenda.

A To me, it's you're right. Once you know it and you see it, you could no. Nobody can ignore this, especially architects who always wanna do good by their projects and their clients and their people. So I think once more architects are educated on this, I think you're gonna have a really strong group of advocates. And so we're very honored to help you spread the word on this mission and just wanna say thank you for joining us today. Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast.

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B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.