Addressing Mental Health in Architecture

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

C Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B So I'm really excited to bring our next three guests onto the show. This has been an episode in the making for a while now. I don't know about the rest of you, but I do feel the mental health crisis and awareness that's happening has continuously I don't know if it's increased or accelerated since we started trying to schedule this episode, but I do think it continues to get a lot of traction, not only in our field, but in other industries and areas more broadly. So Greg, Peter, and Corey, I've met in a variety of different ways. Unfortunately, Greg, we've never met in person. We need to remedy that someday. But I remember talking both separately to Peter and Corey as you 3 were coming up for an article for our AIA Chicago about mental health and awareness. So in order for us to to jump into this conversation, it would be great maybe we could do a round robin.

B Maybe, Peter, you can kick us off. Give us a little bit of your background, why this is important for you, and how you came together with these other 2 to write the article.

D Hey, Evelyn. Hey, Janine. Thanks for having us here. Really important topic for us to talk about. Greg, Curry, and I are all embedded in practice. I'm also, and Greg is too, deeply embedded in academia and in in teaching. And as the 3 of us talked through our professional connections, through our AIA connectivity, Corey and I both serve on the AIA strategic council. Now it's evident that there's a persistence of what our strategic council colleague, Laura Teegarden, and others call suffer culture.

D And this begins, I think it begins, in studio culture and academia, and it certainly doesn't seem to have gone away in studio culture and practice since I started being an architect and being, you know, aware of the all nighter in the early eighties. So Greg and Corey and I felt, it's time to talk about this and the systemic issue that is pervasive in our industry, and to think perhaps about the support cultures that we need to build. So that's the sort of genesis of this conversation. And that there was a convenience that all 3 of us are based in Chicago. We tried to be based in Chicago. Greg is in Philadelphia today.

E Yeah. Thank you for that, Peter. And hello, Evelyn, Janine, Corey, of course. It's really a privilege and an honor to be here with you today. So just by way of background, what brings me here is kind of a collection of different factors that all come into play. And I frequently describe myself as the luckiest lawyer around, and there are really four reasons for that. Number 1, for about a quarter century now, 25 years, I've had the privilege of working in and around the architecture profession. 1st as general counsel and a vice president at an engineering firm where my clients were architects.

E And then a second reason is for the past 10 years, roughly, I've been at Studio Gang as a principal and the general counsel there. And, working with Genie and our collective of extraordinarily creative and talented folks has been the privilege of a lifetime professionally. The third thing is that, as Peter mentioned, I've had the privilege of of teaching. I'm a lecturer at Harvard's Graduate School of Design, where I co teach each fall semester the foundations of practice course, which is required for all m r one students and, you know, being able to interact with that next generation of leaders of the profession is something that is really extraordinary for me. And then finally, and really this is the most important factor for today's discussion, I'm a recovering alcoholic. It was about 21 years and a few days, but who's counting? Well, I am. But 21 years ago, I had my last drink and have been fortunate to be in recovery since. And that is something that was known within Studio Gang.

E But when Peter originally approached me with the idea of coauthoring this article with Corey and him on mental health and addiction, I faced a question which was, is this something that I want to or should be talking about more broadly than my little confined world? And, ultimately, to me, it turned into a no brainer, and that's for a very simple reason. We need to have these conversations about mental health and addiction and recovery in a forthright and open manner. We're past the point, at least we should be past the point, where these are issues that are discussed in quiet corners and whispered about. These need to be discussions for the health of the profession, for the health of society, for ourselves individually. And so it really became a matter of, I'm going to discuss this and my recovery openly. And if it helps any one individual out there who's listening to this podcast or helps anyone in any way, shape, or form. Well, that's all to the good, and there's no downside to me whatsoever.

B Thank you. And last but certainly not least, Corey.

F Hi, Evelyn. Hi, Janine. Peter, Greg, good to be here with you today. I am coming to this conversation, I think, from a bit of a different perspective, one in which I am only just under 10 years into my career. And the suffer culture that Peter mentioned is very fresh on my mind personally because of I am in the early stages of sort of getting out of that first chapter of my career where I was trying to learn and trying to pick up everything about our industry through others and firms and practice. So I am currently at DLR Group in the Chicago office location working as a planner and architect within our k twelve sector. And I found myself in this conversation by way of personal experience, different from Greg's, but a mental health issue nonetheless. A few years ago before the pandemic reached a critical point where I realized that the career path I was on was misaligned with what I had hoped it would be.

F And that wasn't the only problem. There was some undiagnosed general anxiety that was accompanying that, but it all ended in a bit of a difficult period for me where I actually took a leave of absence to work through it, to get the help and the treatments that I needed so that I could live my life in a better a better way. And through that personal experience, which coincidentally was pre pandemic, I was really well equipped with the right tools to help myself and help others through the pandemic times where we saw mental health issues rise substantially because of isolation, because of being stuck at homes, because of the worry that any person we would see, we might in fact could go on and on about that. But what it also did was made me aware that up until that point, this was a very undiscussed issue. There's been a lot of talk of stigmatization around mental health issues, whatever they may be, and I very much felt that. I felt very ashamed that I was having to take time away, that I was not able to control my own anxieties and stresses as it related to the workplace. And what I learned was that there were so much strength and empowerment in doing that for myself. So it was a great lesson for me to learn and also take forward into more broad work at the industry and professional level.

F And so since then, I have been participating and leading the strategic council through the AIA at a national level and helped co lead a working group looking at the impacts of mental health on architecture in the built environment in our profession. And so that's where Peter and I connected on this topic and he so graciously brought the 3 of us together to discuss what some next steps might be because we were recognizing just how little discussion there was about mental health in the everyday. And it's something that we really should be talking about promoting centering in everything that we do in the same way that we do it for our physical health, that we do it for our own professional learning development. Mental health is just so critical to each of us being successful and leading really healthy, fulfilling lives. And so happy to chat more about those specific happenings within the AIA as it relates to mental health.

E I was just gonna jump on top of something Corey said because I consider it so important and so foundational. You know, she talked about the stigma attached with these sorts of things. And as she said that, I viscerally viscerally went back to my own experiences and the shame that I felt when I was prerecovery. Right? The sense of deep and abiding shame that I can still call up it in a moment's notice. So when I just hear someone describing their journey and the problems that they felt. And, again, it's so important that we talk about these topics because people need that sense of connection. People need to understand that there are paths forward and ways out, and that they don't need to feel that shame as part of trying to find a positive constructive path forward. So, Corey, thank you for saying that.

E And the second thing I wanted to observe, and we could probably have a a separate discussion about this topic, But what we're talking about here today is not just related to the architecture profession. This is a much broader issue. Everyone is touched in one way or another by some form of illness. Sometimes it's physical. Sometimes it's mental. Sometimes it's all of the above. That's a part of life. Life ain't easy.

E So it's not just that this is an architecture or design professional or construction industry problem. This is really at the core of what it is to be human, And, you know, we can we can have serious discussions about whether it's worse in the United States than it is in some other advanced countries. Right? I think that's an interesting question. But, you know, this is a broad societal issue that we're discussing here.

B Thank you, Greg, for that, and thank you for your openness and sharing your own personal experience with with alcohol abuse, we keep alluding to this article that the 3 of you had written, and we're gonna go ahead and put that down in the show notes. But within the context of the article, you started to frame not only the problem, but also a solution for the architecture profession. Is there a way to simply frame the problem that we're facing right now in the context of the profession or even more broadly?

E So I'll take a stab at this. So, yes, it is an industry or profession specific problem, but it's broader than that. This is you know, these are issues that affect everyone in every corner of society. The good news is that there are any number of existing models out there that other professions have already adopted, and we described one of them in our article, The one that I'm personally familiar with, the lawyer's assistance program, that is a self funded and when I say self funded, I mean the legal profession funds this program, which assists lawyers and judges and families of lawyers and judges and law students to deal with folks who are experiencing difficulties, from mental, emotional, or substance abuse varieties. And, it leads them to treatment where they then have to do the work themselves as individuals to be engaged actively in the process of recovery. One of the things that we learned after we wrote the article is you know, the medical profession in the state of Illinois and probably in a ton of other states as well has a corollary program for doctors and nurses and health professionals where the state of Illinois itself actually contributes to the program to assist these frontline health care workers with the steps that are necessary to seek help and get people the the resources that they need. So we're a professional group just like doctors and lawyers, and I frequently say that in the context of my contract negotiations with my clients. But, you know, it's equally true that we should be gathering together as a profession much the same way that the legal profession does or that the medical profession does with the help of the government.

E And, you know, given that there are disparate financial resources available for the construction community, it may well be that our model is not just architects. Our model is probably the entire industry. It's architects and engineers and construction professionals. Right? It's the AEC world broadly defined, and maybe that's where we can find some critical mass as well as the financial wherewithal to come together and collaboratively find some kind of avenues that members of our profession can seek assistance from and through.

F Yeah. I would love to respond to this question in a bit of a different from a different lens. I spend a lot of time in discussions both in my firm, outside of the firm, in general, talking about the future of the profession and how do we bring people in and keep them. We know there have been challenges over the past few years due to very expensive education, inclusivity within the profession. And depending on where you are, pay might be a part of that issue or separate issue. Anyway, I mentioned all of these things because I think it's a very layered problem that we are facing about how do we really grow the profession of architecture so that we can best serve our clients in the built environment in solving the challenges we know that we are facing as it relates to climate action, as it relates to more just and equitable communities. And I think a big piece of that is this mental health discussion. And so you can't have it on its own isolated from these other problems, but I do think it compounds these other problems that we are facing.

F If you are a high school student trying to choose which path you are going down for the future of your career and you see that you're so interested in the practice or profession of architecture and improving your community, yet there's no support there in that industry to get you through, to make you have the life that you need to live. Our cities are very, very expensive these days. I mean, we've seen inflation rise. Health care, you know, there is no shortage of challenges that we are facing. And so I think that is really the problem that architecture specifically is facing a bit differently than other industries. And so I think a solution to that is how can we change the culture of our industry so that we are the most welcoming to people regardless of what their needs are, regardless of what their health challenges are, but we are placed and a profession where people can thrive and really solve some of these really complex challenges that our societies are facing.

D Yeah. These are great observations, Corey. And if I could just add another one. Currently, I'm teaching a graduate studio with 6 of the finest future architects I've ever met. Greg has actually met them and entertained them and and showed them around Studio Gang with a colleague the other week. They've already learned about the negativity that is embedded in our culture. The thing that I've been trying to do for the last decade as I teach this graduate comprehensive studio, is to develop a syllabus that emphasizes time management, that emphasizes this is about showing evidence of your skill, not becoming the greatest architect of all time and staying up all night to get the return on that extraordinary investment that you've made, not only in time, but in resources, in your family's finances. And it's a difficult ship to turn.

D It is so embedded. I am guilty of doing those same all nighters. We're still so committed to the culture that surrounds the deadlines, the extraordinary investments that our clients demand of us and expect of us. I'm really sensitive to Greg's suggestion and recommendation that this is an industry wide challenge that we all have to face. We brag freely that we're part of a $1,000,000,000,000 industry. There are lots of $1,000,000,000,000 industries out there. But you look at the cities that we live in, they're construction sites right now, there is extraordinary investment in what is happening in our infrastructure. The resources exist for us to address this, at least economically they do.

D It's the will that we have to take as architects, as engineers, as those that work in our offices, as contractors, and we need to do this together. So I think there's the genesis, a rather obvious genesis of an idea here that hopefully will gain traction and become adopted. I'm very optimistic for those 6 students in my class. Greg's colleague talked at length about gender issues and standing up for the value of what these young people are going to bring to the table immediately. They are the smartest, most capable. They have technical and digital skills. They have emotional and personal skills that are like no other. They're going to be leading our industry hopefully sooner than ordinarily we expect.

D They bring great skills and that they're essential in bringing equity to our profession because they're living those challenges and rising to those challenges and have an awareness of those challenges like none before. And this is why articles like We Wrote, I think are really important. And this podcast, I really hope has the potential to make a difference here.

E Yeah. Very well said, Peter. Just to layer on top of that and going back to Corey's point about how there are so many issues, right, that kind of come together in the present moment. Some of them relate to the extraordinary world conditions we've all lived through. Some of them relate to the profession. Right? It's just this whole bunch of bundle of things coming together. All of these things can be attacked from any place. Like, you know, for instance, Studio Gang is is an extraordinary community in terms of our willingness to engage in some serious discussions around pay equity and things like that and try and make sure we're doing right by our community.

E So each of us individually and our firms, we can make individual efforts to improve the overall conditions of the architecture profession in discrete ways. And, you know, the one that brought us all together is just one way in to opening up the discussion to making, you know, the profession better for those 6 young students that Peter brought by the studio a couple weeks ago. Right? Again, these are folks who will have an outsized impact on on the profession along the same lines as the students that I'm fortunate enough to teach, and we owe it to them, right, to get started and to dig in. And so, you know, today, it's on the issue of mental health and addiction and emotional well-being, and, you know, we can collectively come together there. Tomorrow, it will be that we have to focus on one of the other issues, whether it's climate change or, you you whatever it is, and seek to move the big ship little by little so that we wind up moving in the right direction collectively.

B What I have been hearing through the dialogue of this conversation and what I realized, I've absently been discluding the dialogue from my own conversations, but Janine and I talk so much about the need to evolve the culture of studio, the need to evolve the culture of practice. And I can honestly say, for whatever reason, I don't instinctively layer in mental health into that conversation, and I feel that that is thank you to the 3 of you. That is absolutely something that we should be doing every time we talk about the necessity to change studio culture. Janine says she does, and I talk about emotional safety all the time, but not from a broader mental health issue. So it's it's been an educational conversation as a listener on my end.

C The early work around studio culture started because of students who died in car accidents, basically. That was the issue at hand, and it raised the question around studio culture in the context of an academic setting and mental health. But for me, as I've been in my professional career, the cultures at hand sometimes have really damaged my own mental health, and so I've I guess I've always felt that in my work to try to advocate for change in the way we practice, it's always been in relationship to supporting people and supporting people's mental health and supporting people to succeed. I always see the lack of support around anxiety and stress and some of the things that have been alluded in this conversation. It feels like a huge opportunity for us to support. Even if people aren't talking about it, underneath the surface, I think everybody is struggling in some way.

E So well said, both of you. And this really illustrates the problem writ large. Right? Why do we talk around these issues? Because they're uncomfortable. Because people are afraid, because people are ashamed. It goes right back to what we started talking at the front end, Corey and I. Right? You you there's that sense of deep shame around these issues. So we dance around them, and we talk about other issues that kind of go near the subject, but don't dive deep and don't call it what it is. These are serious health issues.

E If someone's an addict, they've got a serious problem, and they need help. And we, as a community, have an obligation to do what we can to provide avenues so that they can find ways out. Same for depression or any other form of mental health issues. Right? These are things that people still feel deep shame regarding, and so we need to keep having these discussions. We need to talk about them in forthright manners. And even that, if nothing else is done, that in and of it itself is a community service that we're collectively performing and providing to our friends and our family members and people that we may not even call friends, but just interact with professionally. Right? Everybody's human. Everybody needs a hand from time to time.

E We need to reach out and help people.

D It sounds like health, safety, and welfare and equity and resilience and community, doesn't it? Yeah. Things that we're really, really comfortable talking outwardly about and using to promote what we do as professionals seems like we have a bit of an inward problem there.

F Yes. And, Evelyn, your realization in this conversation hit something for me. You know, I was at a place once where the connotation of talking about mental health was negative, and I still feel that when I'm having conversations with people. But for some reason, we're really comfortable talking about our physical health. Right? You can walk into any work environment and someone's talking about going to the gym or strengthening some muscle or just getting over a cold. And my big question has been why are we so comfortable talking about one half of this, but not the other half? And so I think when we talk about solutions, a place where we can start is in academia, in schools, equipping people with the tools to be proactive instead of reactive. And so I think a lot of times we enter this conversation because we're talking about a struggle or a deep problem that we have gone through. And so the lens by which we approach mental health is sort of trying to recover from something, whereas, really, it should be something we're proactive about.

F We're setting boundaries in our workplaces. We are talking with our friends about going to therapy or doing a meditation or doing yoga because it helps us feel better and less stressed. And so I think that's my big hope is that we can really shift this conversation from being reactive and feeling that visceral pain when we talk about mental health to a place where it's comparable to talking about your exercise routine in the workplace. And I think that it's on all of us to model that leadership. I've found myself in a place where I've shifted from being on a team to leading teams, and I know that my actions set the tone for how people are going to model their own lives. And so for me to talk about, hey. You know, I'm gonna take a half a day just to take some space, recover. You know, I need to center my myself because my my mental health is off today.

F Right? Making that visible and having those conversations and creating the space for our team to do that is something all of us can do. You don't need a huge leadership shift in your culture to start doing that. You can start with the 4 or 5 people that make up your team that you interact with every single day. And I know a lot of listeners are coming at this from different firm sizes, different practice sizes, different places in their careers, and I think that's just a really important thing if you can have such an impact on the few people that you interact with every day and really start to shift this.

E That was beautiful, Corey.

D Corey, I I presume that you're seeing a performance outcome that is positive

E Yes.

D With that culture. I see a performance outcome in my studio that is similarly positive. Now, I know that each one of these students is going to matriculate at a high standard because they have the space, place, and the support in which to do that. That's not always the case. Greg, I presume that the same happens with you at Studio Gang and in the lens that you've gone out on things like pay equity, for instance, to build a more comfortable and supportive and successful culture.

E Yeah. And I don't want to make this about the studio gang, but, you know, she is an extraordinary human being. Right? And she's given everybody within the studio agency to make our collaborative a better place for everybody. Right? And so whether it's pay equity or it's any number of other metrics that we use to make our community a more constructive and positive one, People have that sense of empowerment, and so we're a lucky little place to be within the profession. But I wanna come back to what Corey said. It's every grouping of us within our firm or within our connections have the ability to move the conversation forward within our small circles. Right? It can be 4 or 5 people. It can be people working on your same team, Corey, or it can be collaborators, you know, folks that you just work with outside of your office, where you're sharing the same places along the journey of life, right, where you find ways of connecting and sharing and being honest and helping folks develop the toolkit to figure out how they can try and lead healthier lives.

C I guess I wanna come back to the article and ask about what you were proposing because it to me, it sounded like you were offering up a in addition to steps that individuals can take in their firms, but it seemed like there was an opportunity flagged for a larger discussion within the industry. Do you all wanna speak a little bit more about what you're proposing?

D Yeah. AIA Chicago just jumped at the chance to feature this article and even went so far as saying, oh, try and write it by such and such a date so that it can be in the issue that we hand out at the AIA conference that was in Chicago this year. I think one of our aspirations, thinking that even in a city as bold and as brave or as big shoulders as Chicago, realistically, we have to take small steps. And I think Kori and Greg and I are hopeful that we will have a conversation in the AIA Chicago offices for somewhere that a good safe place where we'll attract people who are interested in having this conversation. And we expect to make discoveries from that. Perhaps it will be the leader of a large firm that might want to invest in prototyping this. It could be that it will be an architect like ourselves or a colleague like ourselves who just wants to be there and share or or listen. And I think as Greg said in his opening remarks, if this touches one person, then we're on a road to success in enabling a more healthy conversation and actions on this.

D Yeah. Curry, what were your expectations of this all? I mean, I I don't want to say that we're informal about this, but there is a next step and we're about ready to take it. Being on this podcast is an extraordinary opportunity to broadcast this, for instance, too.

F Yeah. Back when the 3 of us came together, one other thing that we mentioned is our hope that through our our fairly extensive networks that the 3 of us have and now through this podcast, that there's some champions out there that are also listening that would be willing to do this in their own local communities. It would be amazing if this were happening in 10 cities, 10 AIA chapters across the country within a year. You know, I think the key is starting small because of the circumstances surrounding this conversation. You do need that safe place to do it. And I think we have to be mindful not to to rush it. It's an important one to get right. And so I think, as Peter mentioned, we are hoping to lead that next step of having him hosting a conversation in Chicago, and I know the 3 of us would be more than willing to meet with anybody else out there who would like to do the same in their own local community.

E Yeah. And we've already had I haven't checked in recently with you, Peter or Corey, but I've had a number of people come up to me and say that they would like to be a part of that discussion that we have at the AIA Chicago. Right? And so I imagine we will have when we are able to to put that meeting together and on the schedule, we will have a pretty interesting and good cross section of folks from our communities coming together with ideas about taking this forward in ways that we haven't considered or discussed yet.

B It's interesting when I think the dynamic about how do we because there's 2 things we want. Right? We want to be able to talk openly about how we address this, but we also want to simultaneously and alternatively create a real private and safe place for people who are struggling with it to actually have resources and share. So so I'm like, oh, that should be a conversation we should broadcast to the masses, but also how do we create these more intimate places? The dynamic of that, I'm just playing through the dynamic about in that in my head and how we go about supporting both sides.

C Well, it's interesting that's where your brain went because similarly, I was thinking about knowing how many people need help right now or are feeling like they would love to have these conversations. I'm just wondering if maybe we might close this episode by talking about some really practical steps, perhaps either as a firm owner or even just trying to support somebody in your office who's struggling right now, or if you yourself are struggling and you feel like you're in a place where you're not getting the help and support you need. I just wanna close with some words of advice from this group that obviously cares deeply about people and care about your mental health so that you feel like you're supported right now?

E So I'll just answer that briefly, Janine. That's a great closing question. So not everybody, but many folks who are listening to this are working at places where their health insurance, they may not have thought about ways in which their health insurance can assist them, but there are frequently EAPs, employee assistance programs, that are available through your health insurance, through your employer's health care. That's one option. You can certainly feel free to reach out to us individually. Folks who are, came together, Corey, Peter, and myself, we would be happy to steer folks in the direction of current and available avenues of assistance. We want people to make that first step if they're really in crisis Because that first step of picking up the phone or saying, I need help, is so important, and it is really the linchpin to everything that we're talking about. You know, it's that willingness to admit there's a problem and you need help.

E And, again, if this discussion finds someone who's at that place and they need that additional assistance, they need someone to hold their hand to get over that threshold, that's what we're here for, and we want to figure out ways to provide additional hands to assist folks who are currently in need so that folks can be in distress and know that there's a place they can go to find that first step of help.

D There's not a better way to put it, Greg. And I I think if you're not sure whether you need help, there is no shame or stigma attached in in looking. And it could be that you don't need that help, but don't take a chance on that. Minimally, you know, reach out and share this with friends and family and look to the resources that Greg suggests. And certainly, just to reiterate, reach out to Corey, Greg, and myself.

F Yeah. I thought a little bit about this before we convene today and actually just coming off an announcement from my own firm. And so this would maybe be a suggestion for firm leaders out there who have the power to do this, but this next year, we are getting wellness days. So everybody in the organization has 2 wellness days. And I think it sends communication that we all need this. Right? And so I think that is something if you're in a position of leadership, regardless of your firm size, this is some a conversation to start. How can we communicate that we care about our employees' well-being and their mental health? I think if you are a team leader, take a small step to really listen and hear what it is when your employees are talking about some of the struggles they're facing and try to model good behavior, whether it's setting your own boundaries of not working on a Saturday. Right? Just try it for once and try to model that behavior because we all need that break.

F Take your PTO. These are really small simple things. Even if you're not going anywhere, take a day and take that day to yourself and disconnect because it really is important for our own health and wellness and ability to be the best human that we can be, to take some time away from the things that we deal with every day. And I think for someone who's not in a position of leadership, maybe is just starting their career or is in school, start practices every day that really help you feel better. And I think it can be as small as going for a walk or starting a meditation or putting your phone down when you're eating. You know, these are all little, little, small things that can really make a big difference once you make them a part of your life. And again, probably more on the preventative side, but wouldn't it be amazing if we never had to reach the point where we were in crisis mode?

B That would absolutely be amazing. But also, I think and it's something that you said, Corey, at the top of the conversation. Wouldn't it also be amazing if the architecture profession was seen as, like, a profession of helping hands where we help one another move forward, which is so counterintuitive to the competitive nature I feel that we even had when I was in in studio culture, and then our inability on the firm side to even talk to one another about certain things.

D That's a really wonderful thought there, and it's something that we are so comfortable in talking about through our services, but that's really wonderful if we were the model ourselves for that wellness, that safe place. That's what we create for our clients. That's what we nurture, in leadership programs, and, we should be putting equal stock in wellness.

B Corey, that's what you're gonna do on the board in the next 3 years. Right?

F You got it.

B Well, thank you so much. We've been eager to schedule this call. So to finally get all of us together, thank you so much for finding the time today. Thank you, Greg, for calling in from my consultant's office while you're on the road. Thank you, Janine, for taking this in your car. So I think it was a a really timely conversation, and thank you all so much for your time and energy around this important topic.

E It's our pleasure.

B Yes.

D Yeah. Thank you.

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