Critiquing Architecture School

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B This week, I'm truly thrilled to bring back Sana Tabassum to the podcast and welcome filmmaker Alvin Zhou. Sana is 1 of the producers on a project that Alvin Zhou is directing called Critiquing Architecture School, which has aired 2 episodes on YouTube. We will be sure to post those down in the show notes so you can check them out. But in light of all the headlines that have been happening in the last year, especially within universities and colleges of architecture globally, I'm personally thinking about the reaction to the commentary around how to be in a studio from SCI Arc that made headlines in the Los Angeles Times. And then later in the year, there was a report by legal consultancy, Howlett Brown, who uncovered a really toxic learning and teacher culture at the Bartlett School of Architecture. So this series, critiquing architecture school, looks to bring greater transparency to the burdens that often fall on the students, but also on the educators in the field.

A So, Sana and Alvin, welcome. Sana, I thought we could start with you and just have you reintroduce yourself. And then, Alvin, you'll have to introduce yourself to the audience for the first time. We're interested to know why this project was important to you and where are you based in the world?

C So hi, everyone. I'm Sana. I'm a final year master's of architecture student, and I'm also a content creator and blogger. I have my own platform called To Scale where I help other architecture students do more with their time and be productive in a healthy way. And I'm also a coproducer on the Critiquing Architecture School documentary. And, yeah, I'm based in London. So that's me.

D Hey, everyone. My name is Alvin. I'm based in Sydney, Australia. And I am well, as the villain said, feels weird saying this, but a filmmaker. But I'm also studying my master's in architecture at the moment at the University of New South Wales, and that is where the focus of Critique Architecture School is taking place at the moment.

A So we have another group of guests that are spanning multiple time zones to make this happen. So I think we have quite the gap today.

B Yes. So thank you all for joining us, and thank you for all for kinda bringing attention to what we think is an overall necessity to talk about culture shift and culture change within the industry more broadly.

A I also wanna add, Sana, after our last episode, you inspired us to completely rework our graphics. So we did make that jump, so thank you for that inspiration. We have kind of gone in a completely new direction on social media. But we, you know, wanted to bring you back on because it sounds like you are playing a really important role in helping Alvin think through content creation and making this jump into his project. And I think we should start by talking about what is the purpose of this YouTube series, Critiquing Architecture School, and how's it going so far?

D So I guess I'll just start off here. The main purpose of this series is to ultimately empower students. I think over the last year or so, I've kind of struggled to find that purpose. Initially, it was more about critiquing architecture school and trying to make a positive change. But, ultimately, I think it comes down to empowering students to let them know that a change can be made and that they do have the power to do so.

C Alwyn pulled me into this project because I think we work really well together, and I think we both have the same kind of outlook on what architectural education has been like both personally for us but also in the general kind of like perception of students around the world. And I think that's why it was really important for us to come together and work on this project because it's never done before and I think also it's just really key to kind of be questioning the things that are happening of late and why they're happening and how we can kind of move forward together and not just rely on education bodies and and things like that. So, yeah, I think it's just a very much needed topic at the moment.

B So I'm gonna probe you guys to go a little bit deeper because I think we have a very broad audience here on Practice Disrupted. We have people that are, like, thinking about architecture. We have people in uni or university thinking, do I go into the field after this? We have people that are tenured practitioners looking back and, like, remembering the good old days when they were in school. So when you talk about kind of the current culture and university, whether you're in Australia or whether you're in London. And, obviously, being a student, like, what are we actually talking about when talking about empowering students to change? What are we asking them to change?

C So, for example, working in practice, I spoke to people who were much senior than me and I feel like they also had a very similar experience at university where they kind of had this toxic culture of working late and staying up doing all nighters and having this, like, huge amount of pressure on you for this specific degree as compared to other degrees where, you know, it doesn't seem like much compared to the intensity of the course. I think it's just basically that we wanted to kind of address all these problems that I think people already know about in the industry, but they failed to kind of do anything about it. And so we wanted to kind of start by shining the light on just making these problems a bit more well known.

D And especially through the medium of film, it kind of captures a different perspective in some ways as opposed to articles, what not, because I feel like in this space, there is this architecture school documentary that I've heard most people say. I think it's called aciculture, that most people have said they've watched before coming to school or something like that. And I think having a resource like that, which follows someone, which in this case is me, their journey to actually discovering different aspects of how they can make a change is the reason why I hope it can empower students because I'm just an average student, honestly, a below average student. And if someone like me can work towards making a change, I think, hopefully, students can see that they can do it too.

A You've put out 2 episodes now. It was interesting because, originally we interviewed you, and you were wrapping up production on the first episode. And so this is actually the second take on trying to do this interview. So now you've had 2 semesters and 2 episodes. What have you learned?

D Oh, where do I start? I think I've learned a lot about architecture education. For instance, just from the first survey, the fact that there were so many similarities across the world in terms of experiencing toxic culture, bad tutors, or okay. Maybe bad tutors isn't the best way to phrase it, but not trained tutors who aren't really teachers. I think that's always been an issue, and it still is. But I guess there's also been the case of how things are adapting post COVID or how things were during COVID, how you can translate a studio environment online, and how it was pretty unsuccessful in most cases. Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot.

D I think even the fact that some schools are willing to listen and some others aren't, that was also an interesting kind of experience I had recently. And, yeah, I guess, for me, there's a lot.

C I guess we both learned that there are more similarities than we thought there would be initially and I think that's also really helpful in kind of solidifying this idea that this community of architecture students is actually really global and really connected and really has the same experiences throughout. So we're not that much different, although our courses and the lengths and the process of getting qualified and stuff like that might be, the kind of experiences that we're going through isn't so different. And so I think in that sense, it's really important that someone is taking the lead and kind of, like, taking that first step to kind of invite that change into the industry as a whole.

A And are you both Gen z? Is that right?

C Yes. I think we are.

D I always forget. I'm not a millennial.

A You're not a millennial?

D No. I think I just missed the top.

A It's interesting to hear you say that. I was gonna mention that I know you both did not attend the same school. And so you at some point, you realized that you both had had similar experiences even though you went to a school at 2 different institutions on 2 different countries and 2 different continents. Similar to you, when I was coming out of school, I had this amazing opportunity to work with the AIAS, which is the student group in the US. And I went and visited 40 schools of architecture during my year. And I had the same realization that the culture that we learn through studio has common themes. And it's really, really similar at every institution, give or take very specific cultural elements of that institution. Like, so, for example, like, in the US, if you have a football team, football might be important.

A Whereas if you go to a school without football, it might not. And so there are, like, different personalities on the professor lineup, you know, things like that that just kinda push and pull the culture a little bit. But under it all, I think there's really common themes. And so I wanna talk more specifically, like, about the toxic culture that you guys are talking about and what what is it that you see as toxic?

C In terms of what toxic culture means to me, I think I personally haven't experienced any. But I think, you know, when you're kind of like a 1st year at university and you're starting architecture for the first time and you're kind of not really knowing how it's going to be or what you should be doing, I think there's a general sense that you should be putting in x amount of hours and you should be in the studio all the time. And there's kind of already this sort of set of rules that are placed within from the get go. And so I think it kind of starts there, but it's also much down to, like, the tutors. And I really believe that the kind of tutors that you get can really shape your experience at architecture school and therefore shape the way in which you become an architect and how you practice. So I think part of it is something that's probably been sort of generational, and it's kind of like the way that they have been taught and the way that they think is the right way to teach therefore. And, you know, I mean, there's no kind of, like, fault to blame or anything. It's kind of more just so that we need to kind of be updating ourselves and keep kind of, like, recognizing the traits that are kind of borderline toxic and, you know, need to kind of stop and change.

C For example, like, this whole idea of having critiques is kind of like transitioning here in the UK where there are now some universities who are kind of getting rid of the whole critique idea and instead they're either doing informal reviews or they're kind of doing just pin ups every week. And they're kind of like taking a more different approach. And therefore you're not really having that whole kind of like pressure building up to a crit. And you're not having that kind of, like, breakdown afterwards where you've been told to kind of completely change your design or whatever it is. So I think there are kind of, like, baby steps happening in that direction to tackle that toxic culture.

D Like Sano mentioned, it it really does usually come down to how the tutor tries to kind of create a culture. And sometimes if they encourage students to just do what they want, what the tutor wants, and do exactly what they want. They'll they'll end up having these characters who just purely go into class, show the tune exactly what they wanna see, and go home. And there's no sense of community, and it kind of bleeds into the bigger issue, which is bringing all of this into practice later, kind of just having this relentless cycle, and that's that's kind of what we're hoping to make a difference.

A Yeah. Go further on that idea. I like where you're heading.

D Okay. Well, ever since I started working on this series with Sana and Lou, a lot of practitioners have reached out. A lot of people in the industry, I've started to speak to them. And they've mentioned that, you know, if you're really wanna dive into this, you might eventually lead into the bigger topic of what it's like in the industry because a lot of these things that happen in school come straight out and happen in the industry because, I guess, it becomes common practice. People get used so used to working like this that it feels normal to work like this in the workplace, but that's when it shouldn't be the case for sure. So I don't know if it's bad to say this, but I think if it was just contained in the university bubble, it wouldn't be that bad. But I think the fact that it comes out on the other side and continues on, I think that's where the big issue is.

B So I wanna push a little bit further on the fact that you guys have never experienced toxic culture, because I would say that I really appreciated my years at both Drew University and SCI Arc, but I definitely pulled all nighters right before critique. I mean, I don't know how you you actually bucket that behavior, but that behavior, even though I loved my professors, that studio pushed to was in fact toxic. So your guys say you you are saying that you've you've never you've never experienced that?

C I wouldn't say never. I mean, I I'm sure me and Alvin both have done, like, the odd all nighter here and there. But I think there's a difference in between kind of, like, you working late at night or working for too many hours when it's up to you versus when it's kind of forced down your throat and you're kind of like, say, for example, if you're in the studio and you're working and everyone's there and your friends and peers are around and it's kind of like, well, everyone else is working, then so should I. And it's not, you know, no one's pressuring you per se, but it's more kind of like a it's almost like a weird FOMO in that sense, kind of you don't wanna sort of go home and rest, which is which is really bizarre if you think about it because, like, that's honestly what helps a lot of the time. Because, like, even with me personally, when I'm finding that I mean, even, like, this past last week, I felt like I've been working way too much. And I realized that today, and I I was kind of just like, I need to take a step back and just, like, disconnect for a while because otherwise, the quality of my work is just gonna go down and my mental health is gonna, like, you know, deteriorate, and there's no kind of, like, good thing about it. So I think in terms of, like, experiencing this toxic culture, like you said, it it does come down to the ethos of, like, each studio, because I believe that each studio will also have their own kind of goals and way of doing things, and that does get passed down. And then, you know, you hear about, for example, in the Bartlett, like, there are certain studios where the quality of work is amazing but the people who are graduating from these studios aren't happy or they're not kind of like making their way into the industry or, you know, stuff like that.

C And it's, you know, not, like, all the time, but the 1 off maybe thing that you might hear about. So, yeah, I think as long as it's kind of, like, on your own terms and you end up balancing it out somehow anyway, I think that's better. It's only toxic in my opinion when it's kind of forced upon you or forced in kind of, like, a general way, I suppose.

B I would just like to say that I think you guys are so much more in tune to your mental state of health than I was as a as an under undergrad. But no. No. That's just me.

A No. I I totally agree.

C I think also, like, I find that it's it's very difficult to kind of be in check with yourself. I mean, I've realized it when, like, my friends, I see them working all the time, when they see me working all the time, and then we kind of, like, check-in on each other and we're kind of saying, okay. You need to kind of, like, go relax and you kinda need to stop for now and just, you know, regroup and whatever it is. So I think that's also a really key element that I didn't really experience in my undergrad, where I didn't really have that, like, group of friends who I could lean on and who I could talk to stuff about outside of architecture rather than it just being about work all the time. So I think that's also very, very important and it does kind of, like, affect the way in which you work and the kind of, like, habits that you keep, and the atmosphere is really important too.

D Touching on what Sona just mentioned and even what you've mentioned, Evelyn, about your awareness of mental health and whatnot, I think social media has offered it has brought so much awareness to stuff like this. And I think architecture students nowadays, for the most part, at least, are more aware of when they might have to stop just because there's so much talk about mental health. Not that, you know, it's always a case, but I think we're going in the right direction. And in terms of changing the mindset overall, I think, it really can happen just with more stuff being put out there, I guess. Does that make sense?

A And I wanna go further on actually talking about your work. So can you describe for our listeners what the series is and kinda how you are walking through the creative process of creating the content?

D So, yeah, I guess there's a lot of stuff that is hard to film behind the scenes because it's usually the same same repetitive thing. You know, getting surveys has been 1 of the most challenging things I've had to do this whole year because from a student's perspective, I know that it can get a bit annoying when someone's trying to ask for surveys on, like, please do this survey. Please do this survey. But now that I'm on the other side, I've discovered how difficult it is to actually get people's input. But at the same time, it's such an important thing to do because you want to hear their perspectives. You wanna hear what they're thinking and how they view things. So a survey is probably the best way to get the most amount of information possible, And so that's always been the starting point for the series. So once we have the survey, I usually bring it back to the producers, and we have, like, discussions about things and the results.

D And I always ask them for advice on what to do next because I'm I'm never sure what to do. And following that, I guess, since the first episode, I built a relationship with my head of school at the University of New South Wales. And I guess the process now is to do surveys with the help of the university and then bring it to the head of school, have some discussions, and see what we can do. That's basically the entire process at the moment. On top of that, reaching out outside of my school to get more input from professionals, from other educators, from other universities, I think that's the next step.

E I have a year and a half left before I graduate, and within that time, the goal is to help improve things at my university. Every term, for the rest of my degree, I'll focus on a different topic. I'll be giving a voice to the people who don't feel like they have 1, learning about what goes on behind the scenes, Putting a spotlight on the people who are already making a difference. Taking this all to the decision makers, and if everything goes well, we'll work together. And if not, all this will be on the internet for anyone to see. I want to do these stories justice, and as an aspiring filmmaker, who cares if I piss a couple of people off along the way?

B How receptive has your school been? And then I feel like I don't know if it's on Instagram or recently, you tried to visit another school, and they were a little less perceptive. So can you talk about both of those experiences?

D I was kind of doing it under the radar at my university for 1 term because I was a bit concerned that my school, you know, they might take it negatively. They might think this is just a a student trying to take the school down or something like that. But when my head of school actually reached out to me because he saw it on social media, he was super open to coming jumping on board and working together with me. And he even told me, you know, I'm surprised that no 1 started this earlier because he he's identified the same issues, I guess. So it was great. He even put me in touch with all the course convenience for various studios. They've been helping me get to their students this term. So my score has been great so far, and an issue came up recently when I visited another university to kind of do the same thing.

D I just honestly, it was the purpose of being at other universities was to see their studio environment and bring in some of the positives to my university so I could tell my head of school, you know, this university is doing this. We should maybe try something similar or whatnot. But, unfortunately, a tutor found me. He told me to go speak with the course coordinator. The course coordinator told me that she'd have to ask the head of school. She ran downstairs, brought the head of school up, and they both told me that I wasn't allowed to do that at all. They were somewhat supportive of the series. They did say that if I had a survey, they would be able to share it.

D That hasn't happened yet. But I don't know. It it didn't seem like they framed it as human research, and they said that I wouldn't be allowed to do that without all the ethical clearances or whatnot. And I don't know. I didn't know about any of that. And I don't know if that was legitimate because I did look it up after. It didn't seem to be a 100% the case. So I I wasn't sure if they just didn't want me there and were just finding any excuse to get rid of me.

D So yeah.

A Do you have aspirations to pull in other universities, especially given the global nature of your collaboration?

D Yeah. Absolutely. I think in the form of a documentary, it might be a bit tough to travel and study and work at the same time. But, you know, with this tool that we have now, the Internet, the possibilities really are limitless. And I think that's really exciting because hearing what other schools have to say or whether or not they'd like to, you know, offer some insight into what their school does that I could bring to mind, or maybe if they like what they see in my series, they could ask me to offer them some insight from my school. I don't know. I think it's just a really incredible tool that we have right now. We have access to everyone.

B So you have 2 episodes down. What does future episodes look like, and what's kind of the focus on each? Because you only also have a certain amount of time when you are actually a student.

D Basically, the next few episodes will focus on studio culture, which is a big 1. I think that might be 1 of the biggest episodes in investigating how things are post COVID. That's what I've been doing recently, and I'm pretty excited to see the outcomes of that because I think there's a lot of room for improvement, and I think it's possible, which is very exciting. Following that, it's also somewhat related to the post COVID world kind of looking at how the Internet can act as a resource, and that includes content creators like Sauna, Archimarathon. You know, there there are a lot of different mediums as well in terms of the online space, which architecture education seems to be embracing at the moment. So I think that's really exciting.

C It's more just about unpacking the nuances at your university and then using whatever we do end up learning as a sort of framework to then, you know, share research or share kind of like the lessons or share knowledge about what students actually think in this present time. And then, hopefully, that can start conversations with other universities globally, either through content creators like you said or other students or societies and representatives and that kind of thing. So it's more about kind of like using this almost as a sort of first test and then expanding out who knows in what in what way.

A So you know that you've identified the desire for change. And you even said earlier in the episode that a lot of people are aware of these issues. It's not new. We get questions a lot of times from people that want to know specifically what needs to change or recommendations. And I guess I'm wondering, it's probably early in your work, but can you describe the vision you have for what the future of architecture education could be?

C Probably it might just be the fact that a, it would be to ensure that the well-being of students is as a priority in education because I think that should be a priority regardless anyway. Right? And so that's 1 thing, but then also, you know, you're looking stuff like the actual content of the course, the modules, how they're broken down, the kind of skills students are learning and that kind of thing and that varies from uni to uni in 1 country alone. So I think it's more about maybe finding a way to bring all of these together and make sure that everything's on the same page. In the UK, for example, that relies on boards like the RIBA who are accrediting university courses. And sometimes, I mean, I still find that if I speak to other people from other universities they're learning other things and they're kind of like gaining other skills and it's kind of interesting because then you don't really learn about all of this kind of stuff when you're applying to university and it's only after the fact. And so I think that kind of disadvantages people. So I think getting everyone on the same level is really important as well. But on a kind of, like, wider scale, I think then maybe it's also just about us valuing ourselves as architects whether that's in education or in practice because I think that's also a very big topic that I've been kind of leaned towards earlier is that when we carry on these skills into the workplace, they're not really as suited and why is that and, you know, why is there this huge disconnect and why are we not able to bridge that as easily as possible? And, you know now we're kind of seeing the rise of like apprenticeships and different modes of also learning and working at the same time.

C So I think that's also kind of like a step in the right direction because it kind of allows people to get a real sense. Because I think what I've seen personally is that a lot of people end up leaving architecture, a, because it's such a long kind of, like, journey as it is, but also because they kind of get fed up with the industry and it's not as they expected it to be. So I think just being a bit more clear on, like, what the actual goal is at the end of this is is also really important.

D I guess the only thing I'd I'd have to add to that is what I'd like to see or how my vision for how architecture school or, honestly, maybe even any university faculty should change or adapt adopt is having open dialogue between the faculty and students. I think there is that disconnect, And just having simple open forums or something like that between the students and the, I guess, higher ups is something really important because oftentimes students might feel intimidated by them or they feel like they're not heard. It might not necessarily be the case. I think sometimes if the schools are open to listening and they want feedback, they should stop just doing surveys and maybe have an open discussion with students instead. And to my understanding, that doesn't happen. It it happens at some schools, but not all of them.

B Is there an end to this? Like, is there a plan to end to this? Because what what happens, Alvin, when you graduate? What is the next next step? Is this a project you're gonna keep creating about, or you obviously have other opportunities to pursue as a filmmaker. So where does this story end for you in particular and even you, Sona, as you're, like, looking at your own graduation too? And what would you hope would be the the biggest takeaway, or where would you hope that somebody kind of continued that journey?

D Well, the timeline for this project has always been it's supposed to finish when I graduate. And I guess once that happens, to look back and see what has changed at the university specifically would be great and maybe coming back in a few years to see if those changes have been implemented to kind of, you know, see if it just stopped there. But, also, I think what I found recently and what I told the producers was that there are too many conversations to be had about this topic. And an idea that came up recently was that maybe after this documentary series is done, it transitions into more of a podcast kind of medium, where we can just have long discussions with a single person about their thoughts on the topic, their perspective, and whatnot. And, you know, there are so many people that we want to speak to. And in a documentary, it might get lost. We can't just interview every single person who who is willing to do 1 or who has something interesting to say because the narrative will get lost. But if it's in a single episode podcast format, I think there's a lot of opportunity to explore different aspects of architecture education.

A Can you give us a few examples of the conversations that you wanna have, but you feel like you're trying to edit back to constrain the project?

D Well, I did an interview towards the end of last term with my head of school. Sit down interview lasted for about half an hour, and it's hard to cut anything from that. But as a documentary, I don't think it suits that format because I think a lot of things would have to be cut out. And while I try to cut out the most important things, I still think the nuances and the details in what I said are really important. And that's why I think podcast would be a great format.

A I kinda wanna push further on specifics because I'm sure we have practitioners listening. Maybe for them, if you guys could provide some recommendations on you know, they're really interested in making sure that people come into the profession and that they do wanna stay and that they work to become architects. But I think the reality is they know they're losing people. They know they're losing talent, and it's a tough battle to keep talent in this field right now. If you had, you know, maybe 3 recommendations you could throw out there for them, like highest level things that they could do next week that would encourage people to stay or even would motivate them to put in the work, whatever that means, to stay in the field? What's something that they could do that would have an immediate impact?

C 1 thing that probably helped me personally when I was working in practice is just this kind of, like, open dialogue of being able to learn while you're on the job. And what I mean by that isn't just software related, it's more so learning about the industry that you're working in because I worked in a practice that, you know, specialized in care home designs, and I knew nothing about the care industry. And I think looking back now, I know so many, you know, small things that, you know, can have a big impact when I'm thinking about designing. Even if it's a university level, even if it's for hypothetical projects, those things are always in the back of my mind. And I think it's really important for you to kind of look at projects on a human level. And so what my practice was doing is they were kind of involving me in discussions to almost think of ideas or kind of, like, find new ways of designing that could kind of be improved or that could kind of help the clientele and the kind of people who are actually using these care homes, for example. So I think stuff like bringing them into the conversation and kind of making sure that they're able to explore and it's not just kind of like a general 9 to 5 job, it's more of a community in that sense. I think that's really key because it shapes you as kind of like a designer in the end.

C Another thing would probably be to kind of be as transparent as possible and kind of make sure that everyone is on the same page and you know treated equally and that kind of thing, but I think honestly learning skills on the job and kind of being able to grow is really important and I think that's something that practices could prioritize. In terms of, like, the short term, maybe it's kind of something like having a discussion or having a kind of, like, task or activity that everyone does collectively where they kind of brainstorm on ideas for how we how we can, like, improve this specific type of design that we've been working on for decades. Surely, there might be an easier way to do it or a better way to do it or something that kind of, like, improves whatever aspect it is. So, yeah, just involving people from this kind of younger generation into the conversation because I think we have a lot of new and fresh ideas. And I think that's also 1 thing that you can kind of take away from university projects is that even though it might be very hypothetical and, you know, not really as a built project, it still gives you a lot of skills in terms of honing down on kind of like design aspects that are really important in the end.

D Well, I guess my experience doesn't go into practice. I've never worked in an architecture practice, But I think even in school, in the early early days, what I've noticed this year, I've been on a a few office tours with a group of students, and they're pretty early on in their undergrads or either 1st or second years. And during those tours, the directors would come and kind of give us a tour of the office and how things worked, and they would actually be pretty open and honest about the industry. They mentioned that, you know, it was tough. And I guess they mentioned a lot of things that you don't hear at university about practice itself, and I think the students really appreciated that. You know, of course, the the practitioners were telling students how great it was. I mean, how much they love their work, and I think many people in the industry do love it, you know, especially if they manage to work their way up to that position. They really love the work, and I think you could feel that passion for their work.

D And so I think that balance between being honest about the current state of profession and also sharing your passion is is something that practitioners could do tomorrow, you know, with the next generation.

B This has been such a great conversation. I wanna say and I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way. And, Janine, I hope I'm not speaking wrongly on behalf of both of us. But I think you both have such a great, better perspective on the profession than I did when I was your age coming out of school. But I think you guys could do so much more to tell that story. And while you are great on your mediums, like, as a director and behind the camera, Sat and I feel like when you're on social media, I think you could do so much more by being more courageous about, like, literally getting on camera more yourself and and learning how to tell your story, like, really, really quickly. So I I hope you take that as, like, a a positive critique and know that Janine and I are here to support you in any way possible, whether that's podcasting in the future. You guys are on to something.

B I think you could use perspective of other people that have been in practice a little bit more. Like, Evan said, you are finding that other people are talking about this, but I'd love to find a way to keep what you're doing going.

D What's the first word that comes to mind when I say the word?

E Anxiety.

D Intimidating. Sharing. Feedback. Collaboration.

C Is learning hectic? Vulnerable.

D A day that you set to review something with people, whether it be external or your tutor, so you can get progress and an update on where you should be heading. But it is a brutal experience.

E It might feel like harsh feedback, but most times it's it's like a true Yeah. At the end of the day, like, they're trying

D to help you. They're not trying to,

E like, crap on your project. In my 5 years of architecture education so far, I kind of worked out that all we needed to do this properly were 3 things: a criteria sheet, knowledge on how to critique constructively, but most importantly, transparency.

A We haven't talked about how people can participate. Like, if students are interested, if they're listening to this and they're at other universities, what's the best way for them to get involved or support you guys?

C Subscribe to the channel, first of all. And I think also, like, we underestimate how powerful sharing something can be. Many people kind of think just because we're kind of creating content online and because our posts or our stories are going out to a lot of people, but everyone's seeing it, but it's not the case. Like, so many people I, you know, sent specific DMs to to kind of be like, hey. Check out this documentary. And they were like, oh, I've never seen this. And even though I posted about it many times, so I think it's more about if they can support us by just kind of like sharing, kind of like getting the word out and, you know, forwarding it on to someone who you think might be interested in to learn more about the industry or someone who might benefit from seeing these experiences that Alvin's going through and that can help them make a better decision as well. So just sharing the episodes that we have out so far and getting them out to kind of like friends and peers and tutors and whoever it is because that's gonna help us grow and that's gonna kind of give us a better audience, but also a better community to interact with.

C And therefore, we can kind of aim to include as many people as possible.

D Yeah. That's perfectly said, Zanna. I think as I mentioned early in the recording, the head of school found the documentary through social media, and he reached out to me. So by just simply sharing, it it can go a long way. And, also, again, what you said, you know, building that community. Once a survey does come out, and there will be many more, it'd be great to get people in that community to add the input through a survey. And the only way to do that is if they are involved with us and following our socials and subscribe to the channel and all that. So I think that would be very helpful.

A I also wanna hear why are you guys in the world of content creation? What about it makes you guys excited?

C I think what excites me about content creating is just being able to document what I'm doing at the moment and then learning from the people that I'm interacting with because they're all from different experiences and stages of life, and they might be 1st years or they might be architects, and, you know, I get to kind of have those conversations with with them and learn from them, but also I get to kind of show a side of me where I'm still learning and it's okay to kind of keep growing yourself and expanding your skills and that kind of thing and kind of coming to grips with the real kind of like difficulties of being a student and what that entails. So I think for me it's more about crafting this community and just kind of connecting everyone, which I think is also the aim of like what Projects by People was for Alvin right at the beginning. It's just connecting all with all of these amazing people, right? So I think that's also continued on through the documentary, I feel. And so it's it's really nice to kind of, like, have it come not full circle yet, but I think kind of, like, grow into something a bit more substantial.

A Yeah. I totally agree. I mean, I think that's what I appreciate about what you're both doing is sometimes when you're going through these growing experiences, it can feel lonely

C and difficult

A to go through the ups and downs. And Sona, I know on to scale, you've been really open about the good days and the bad and, like, the challenges. And similarly, I think, Alvin, you're kinda trying to create some visibility behind that for what it looks like in your own experience and while also pushing the dialogue on what education could look like. So I think it's cool. I really do. And in our journey to create and develop content, you know, sometimes you're you don't necessarily know where the path is gonna lead you, but every time we do a new episode, we learn something. And and over the effect of almost a 100 episodes, we started with a hypothesis, and now we have such a better understanding of the work that we were trying to create. And so what I can only hope for both of you is to keep going and to try to keep telling that story.

A And I think that the work that you're doing is is connecting that community that definitely needs support. So thank you both for being there and doing all that work.

C Yeah. No. Thank you. It's been really nice to kind of, like, outside of our kind of meetings about this documentary to also be able to kind of see an outsider's perspective and talk about it a bit more. So hopefully this gets a bit more eyes on the project itself, but yeah we're really we're really I think excited to kind of see where it takes us right, so should be interesting.

A Alright. Thank you guys so much.

D No. Thank you, Janine.

C Bye.