Five Topics on Mental Health for Architects & Designers

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Co So we've recorded 2 prior episodes dedicated to mental health, and this is a topic that deserves a lot of focus. Co And, personally, I've been wanting to continue the dialogue to go a bit deeper. So many in our field are struggling with how to manage stress, anxiety, overwhelm, burnout, and they wanna know how to put mental health as a priority and build systems in place that support co Better mental health and hopefully reducing their stress and overload. When we recorded an episode a year ago with Peter Exley, Greg Garmiza, and Corey White on mental health, I was unfortunately stuck in a rental car in Austin, Texas recording over a over a laptop through my cell phone Internet connection. And I had so much to say about this topic, but I really couldn't jump in there because co My Wi Fi connection was so weak. But later, a friend told me that he had listened to the episode, and he wished we had gone co deeper, and so I wholeheartedly agree.

A Today, this episode is focused on really talking about solutions. We are specifically going to be discussing things that relate to some of your individual experiences in practicing in the field of architecture. At some points, you might think we're talking about you, but, truly, this episode is a culmination of the things that I have personally learned about the psychology of architecture and being an architect and studying in design. From my own experiences, things I've struggled with personally, things I've observed from other people, and behavior patterns that tend to show up in practice. So we're gonna discuss what those are in more depth. We have a licensed therapist on the show today to help us explore this co with great detail and great recommendations. If at any point you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, We highly encourage you to seek out guidance from a professional who can work with you 1 on 1. It has been very important to my life, and I know it has helped a lot of people that I know who have had to navigate these types of conversations.

A So I just wanna put that at the front of this episode that that is an important step to take if you're trying to find a pathway forward in your own mental health journey.

B Co Our guest is teaching at North Carolina State University College of Design and helping to lead a pilot effort to integrate mental health into the curriculum, which includes co teaching their 1st year design inquiry

A course. Alison Grubbs is a licensed clinical social worker, licensed clinical addiction specialist, certified clinical supervisor and is certified in the work of doctor Brene Brown. She was trained in 2013 by Brene Brown and has been facilitating her work in both clinical and professional settings ever since. She has been practicing as a therapist for about 16 years and maintains a private practiced here in downtown Raleigh. Allison also works with leaders and organizations to help them practice and grow in emotionally healthy ways. Co So, Allison, I'm super excited to have you on the show. Welcome. Is there anything else you wanna add to your introduction?

C Hi. Co No. I'm I'm really excited to be here too. Excited to talk to you guys. And I'm hoping that this will be a dialogue, and we can talk co I wanna hear what you guys have to say about your own experiences too. But, yeah, a lot of people ask me how I made the leap from college of design graduate to a therapist, and so I like to share that I was a high school art teacher in between co Graduating from undergrad with my design degree and, was a teacher for a while and then ended up pursuing my master's in social work. So that's how that's how I made it here. Co

B Well, we are so happy to have you, and I think it's particular you know, as Janine said, obviously, architecture. I feel like we want to say that we suffer from all of these idea of identity, perfectionism, stress and anxiety, burnout, coping co With all of it more than other industries, can you help us set the framework by is it all in our head, or are we truly suffering co more than other industries before we get into the details.

C That yeah. That's a good question. What I have seen co is that I think there's an issue for sure with the culture related to just creatives and designers and, you know, especially architects. But is it it's an also universal issue. Right? There's a reason why books, like, by Brene Brown on Shame and vulnerability and perfectionism are bestsellers just because it's so prevalent among all of us. I can even speak for myself. Co But I think certain professions lend themselves to either it may be a chicken or egg thing. Is it are the folks that are co More have a more of a tendency to gravitate towards perfectionism, may find themselves in those professions, or Is it also part of the culture of design? Is it part of the culture of architecture that kind of almost reinforces that or can reinforce that? Co Janine, I know you and I were talking a little bit in prepping for this that, you know, it is true.

C I mean, architecture is not the same as surgery, but I started thinking about it. It I mean, there's a public safety element. Things have to be exact. You're not able to be quite as messy co as other professions. And so I think sometimes that kind of mindset can easily carry over in all areas of life, and it can be hard to turn it off. And I just remembered too in in the college design and that this still continues today, this kind of, You know, badge of honor of I stayed up all night. I was, you know, up all night. The studio lights are on all night kinda thing.

C Everybody's continuing to work really hard, and so there's this kind of feeling you're not doing it right unless you're not sleeping.

A Yeah. No. That's spot on. Co And what I hope we can tackle in this conversation, I tried to narrow it down to a short list of things that I thought were priority, co and the list includes discussing the identity of becoming an architect, the tendency towards perfectionism, co The stress and anxiety that leads to burnout, common coping strategies that result as basically mechanisms to deal with those downward pressures, and then we really wanna address actual solutions and what co a licensed therapist recommends. So I thought we could start by discussing the self and our desire for identity. Why do we embrace this concept of becoming the architect. What does that mean? How does it impact the decisions we make? I have a lot of questions.

C Co Yeah. When we were talking about this earlier about the idea of identity and what it means to be an architect And what goes along with the profession, with the job? I started thinking and and and hopefully, this links up or resonates or makes sense. But I started thinking about this idea of our ideal identities and then our unwanted identities and how much that is really the root of that's how we can know where when when and how we feel shame, which is a big piece of my work co that I work with folks on. It's so universal that we all feel it. We all experience it, and it's a big driver for a lot of the things you mentioned about co Perfectionism and burnout and comparison and just kind of this hustle culture because we're co Not feeling good enough. We're we have these ideal identities of I want to be seen as, and I'm I'm talking very ideal identities. And then we have these this set of unwanted identities. I do not wanna be seen as this.

C And, I mean, I'd be curious to hear from you guys what co You feel like even if you wanna share, here I am going and being a therapist for the 2 of you. But but what your ideal identities co Might be what comes to mind and what your unwanted identities might be because that can really, yeah, drive a lot of those kind of behaviors you talked about, and and then our self worth gets really tied to and enmeshed with co What we're actually doing just at work you know, our our self worth and then our work and the product. So if there's a failure at work, That doesn't mean you are a failure. Right? If there's a misstep, that doesn't mean something's wrong with you. If there's a mistake, that doesn't mean you are a mistake. And so I think a lot of what drives and we can talk about this more later, but a lot of what drives perfectionism is shame. So when people talk about, this person struggles with perfectionism, they're really talking about this person's struggling with shame and that's driving this co way of coping with that through trying to perfect everything and trying to control everything. And and if I can just get this right enough, co Then I will, be good enough.

C And so it's it's pulling apart what I am doing versus who I am as a person.

A Yeah. And I will open up about my struggle on this, which is a lot of conversations That I've had to work through behind the scenes have to do with you know, they set in place this idea that you There's one path to become an architect, to be an architect, and you either are or you aren't. And I never felt like I fit into that. It was not the path that made sense to me authentically, but I tried to force myself into being that. Co And me not fitting that criteria, I really went on this tough struggle personally about feeling like a failure in my career, which was, like, such a driver to who I was and what I wanted to be. And in launching my business, It's about my identity. It's about taking back that narrative of being able to well, I'm not an architect, but I'm an entrepreneur, And I am someone who can contribute to this industry, and I see this industry in a different way. And so now Now I feel like I've worked through a lot of stuff to get to the point where I feel like my value and my worth is tied to co Me doing things that align to who I am and not fighting against the things that don't fit me just to be named an architect co And to feel like I belong.

A That is so hard to unpack, and it took me a long time to get there, co But it totally is tied into this conversation, and I know I watch so many other people struggle with the pursuit of becoming the architect or not. You're either in or you're not, and others viewing people that you're either in or you're not. Co But what Evelyn and I believe is that everyone belongs, whether you're a licensed architect or not. And whether you pursue co or another field, or you stay on the traditional path. It doesn't matter.

B Yeah. I think I use credentials. I don't wanna say weaponized credentials, but I I've utilized my credentials of becoming an architect and then pursuing my fellowship as a way to maintain I felt needed to be legitimacy in this profession to have a voice, co Even if it meant that I would never use that credential to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public just because I'm not stamping and signing drawings, which is ultimately what that credential is. Right? But I felt an inward Need even though I made the decision to leave the profession prior to getting license to kind of capend co For all the reasons why Janine said, there's only one path to having a voice in leadership in this profession, co And that path is licensure, and then the the career ladder of that path is firm principle or partner or owning your own firm. Co And I don't struggle with it as much. I think I've learned how to lean into it and own up to it. But I it it shows up daily, And I think it'll continue to show up even more so now in my elected position of, like, why why are you it's already shown up. Like, As president of the AIA, are you going to encourage more people to not get license? And that's that's not what I'm trying to drive.

B But that's always a question in some people's mind, inevitably, and that co That plays into how I need to message things on a a personal level. And thankfully, I've gained friends like Janine along the way, but I've definitely lost co Or there's friends that still, I would say, remain confused as to what I'm doing with my career. Co

C Thank you for sharing that, both of you, and being vulnerable like that. I think that yeah. It's always helpful To hear real experiences. And as you both were talking, I think you both mentioned the word belonging. And as as I was preparing for this, co That kept coming up for me, I think, because what how I kinda define shame, which in turn very related to burnout, very related to perfectionism is that fear of not being good enough, fear of being cast out, co of being disconnected or separate from because we're really wired neurobiologically to be connected. And, You know, if you think about it, our survival for a very, very long time has depended on being a part of a group and really belonging. And co Belonging the difference between belonging and fitting in, for instance, is belonging is I get to be who I am, and I'm still here. So co As you both were sharing your experiences, I couldn't help but think about, wow.

C So the way it's kind of set up, co It's set up kind of as a shame minefield unless you're fitting in this one path. And if you don't, there's this sense of, like, you're not architect enough. You know? Co And then what kind what where does that lead? You know? It probably would and what I've seen is that it leads to a lot of co Really talented people leaving the profession or really talented people getting really burnt out. And in worst case scenario, people getting hurt. You know? So, co Yeah. I I think that's a that's a big piece is this sense of of belonging and the whole practice of Architecture, and then what you guys are doing is so important, is needs to take a look at that and how it's set up and how it's set up from kind of the top down and bottom up, And then what principles and partners are doing in their own firms too.

A Yeah. I agree. I think that there's a lot of accepted rules in the way we practice that create barriers for people that you know, I'm not trying to challenge that I know more than an architect about certain things. Like, there's definitely things that come with that credential that make them extremely qualified. Those just aren't the things that I'm interested in learning about, so I would much rather you call me about the things that I'm good at that are not tested on in the area. I know how to make money, and I know how to make a business operate, and I know how to keep people on staff. And I know, like, all these things that aren't defined by that credential, and I'm really good at it. Co So I just yeah.

A And it's taken me a long time to let go of the idea that I would become a licensed architect, But I'm at peace with it because I see now my identity and the value in the other things that aren't quantified in that way. But I agree co Leadership has the ultimate power to influence that idea of belonging within the culture of their firm, And I think that's much of what the work is that I try to do with firms is to try and push them to create greater belonging inside a practice. I think one of the one of the conversations that is really important to acknowledge around that is this idea around perfectionism. Co It's a pattern that I see across firms that shows up in individuals. I've noticed it in myself. Like, I've been in this profession long enough to co have developed this need for perfectionism, which is tough to break once you have that pattern and that behavior. So let's talk about what is perfectionism. I was wondering, is it a learned behavior? Co And then how do you support people with this tendency?

C Perfectionism, the way I would define it well, you know, you can look at it as just You're trying to make something perfect, but the way I like to look at it is the the difference between co Perfectionism and striving for excellence because sometimes they get confused in some ways. And because perfectionism, You know? So that's that thing that people say in job interviews. Like, what's your biggest weakness? I'm a perfectionist. And, you know, then people go, oh, great. This person's gonna work co Over over time and, you know, check everything over a 1000000 times, and it's not necessarily a good thing. But co The way perfectionism works and the way I look at it is that it's real externally motivated. So it's all about what are other people gonna think co And whereas striving for excellence is really intrinsically motivated and driven, so it's I wanna make a really great product, And they're very much striving for excellence. I am separating out who I am from what I'm producing.

C I wanna make excellent work. I want to produce something that's high quality, which is a wonderful thing, a great thing as a goal. Perfectionism, though, is co The big problem there is it's unattainable, but it's really driven by what are other people gonna think. And co It's so it's a never ending kind of treadmill. It's a very big hustle. And the problem there too is that we can't really control the the perceptions of others. We think we can, but we can't. And if we can't ever achieve it, then we're always feeling not good enough.

C Co And so it's this never ending thing that starts a cycle that kinda perpetuates itself. And I think perfectionism, there's a lot co Related to comparison, and I especially see that in creatives and designers that I've worked with that there's this co How how hard is this person working? How good is that person's work? And so there's this that dry comparison kind of drives that co Desire to to kind of hustle for that. Another way of looking at it is in my training with co Brene Brown. She uses the metaphor of armor. So if we think about vulnerability, which is co How she defines it, uncertainty risk and emotional exposure, we will go into the arena, and that's a good metaphor, a visual co Picturing yourself walking into this big arena. A lot of times, we're carrying with us all our armor to try to protect ourselves from getting hurt, co And perfectionism is a 20 ton shield, and the problem with armor is it's not letting anything else in either. We can't co selectively decide what we're armoring up against. We you know, we're we're blocking out everything.

C So I like to tell folks, you know, there's no creativity without vulnerability. And if we're striving for perfectionism, if we're hustling like That and armoring up, it's blocking out so much access to innovation and creativity and all these things that co All the firms want, what you want as individuals, and really blocking blocking yourselves out from being able to fully express yourself.

B I think one of the interesting things that I have seen in great leadership through the pandemic is co Extra vulnerability and just showing up and showing the rest of us that they are just as human as co As I am, you know, how have you seen, maybe even outside of architecture or even within design, is there an evolution in in the leadership mindset co from needing to armor up versus showing vulnerability. And I feel like we're gonna get some questions about how do I simultaneously lead co And be vulnerable and bring my people along all at once.

C Right. So, you know, if you think about that co Definition of uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. I don't have any experience of creativity or leading that hasn't involved those things. Right? So just inherently being a leader is going to be a vulnerable experience. And I think too, there's co myths about vulnerability, right, that that people think of it as disclosure, you know, disclosing things, or you're a leader up there, you know, crying in front of your whole team Kind of thing, which may or may not be involved, but another piece here that's really, really important that I would have to mention is, vulnerability without boundaries isn't vulnerability. Right? So we have to have boundaries as well. But, yeah, it's Definitely have seen, and I'm really excited that there's more of a push to people are seeing the value of it, of practicing vulnerability as a leader and being willing to be a learner rather than just knowing everything, being able to ask for help. I mean, when you think about what is vulnerability, it can be so many different thing.

C I mean, what I'm doing right now is vulnerable. It's it's practicing vulnerability what you all are doing. You know, It's it's sometimes small gestures, and sometimes it's really big and grand. It's so it can look so many different ways, And it's being willing to be vulnerable with each other. Right? So 2 partners can be vulnerable with each other, and then there may be a different level on a different a boundary set up for when they're having a big, you know, firm wide meeting, you know, depending on the size of the firm and things like that. So co It can look a lot of different ways, but I think boundaries are a big piece there. And we if you think about it if any of us Think about our own relationships in our lives and who we're drawn to and who we actually connect to. We're all drawn to authenticity, And it's kinda the first thing we look for in other people, you know, and and that's what draws me.

C I know that's what draws me to folks is co When I see them being real, being authentic, being vulnerable, and it helps me then feel more connected. It gives me something to kinda grab onto And vice versa. So it's going to lead to a lot more more connection overall in general, which is great for all of those things that we want and not just in architecture.

B It's interesting that you kinda switched the conversation for vulnerability to authenticity. I feel like in a way, we've rebranded vulnerability as, like, we want our leader to show up and be authentic. Like, it's It's okay to be authentic, but it's harder to be vulnerable.

C Yeah. Yeah. Because I think you know? And they can be in some ways interchangeable. To be authentic is vulnerable. You know? But still still vulnerability has such a connotation to it with weakness, unfortunately. But if I mean, we can think about right now, and, you know, I would ask anybody listening right now is to think about Can you think about a time you've been you know, you've practiced vulnerability or done something brave that didn't you know what I mean? That where you were also felt afraid, co And did you feel weak? Right? Like, sometimes we it feels really scary, but it can also feel really, really brave. You know? If you've watched someone practice vulnerability where you've watched someone wait for a call that they're, you know, they're nervous about. Ask somebody on a date.

C You know, do public speaking, tell the tell someone how they feel about them, those things. That's all very vulnerable, but all very courageous close very strong. So, yeah, vulnerability needs to be rebranded, but just in general. Co

B There's a lot of talk at the partner and principal level of how much risk architects take on. Right? So everything that we are doing is, co In effect, trying to avoid a bad outcome from that risk. And then co What happens is we don't necessarily that feeling of pressure of my name is on the drawings, my name is on the firm, co It gets pushed down the the stream, but as somebody who's just come out of school or or as somebody who's even in middle management co Who doesn't have to sign the contracts? Who doesn't who doesn't have to deal directly with the lawyers? Like, I don't understand where that pressure is coming from, but co It's already kind of instigated this micromanagement tendency within within firms that then I feel becomes learned and passed down to the younger people in the firm. Is there a way to to break that cycle or separate the legalese of risk from how you manage teams in a way that makes them co perform better while also having in the back of your head this whole idea that we can't go wrong because we can get sued type of thing.

C Yeah. I think of what's coming to mind is being able co To acknowledge the power of just acknowledging that, the power of the folks in leadership acknowledging that to their whole team, And the people that are maybe not licensed yet, the the the folks that are you know, everybody working on the team, just at being acknowledged, very I I really believe in acknowledging things very explicitly. You know, the elephant in the room, like you said, Janine, it's it's calling it out that we know this is the pressure we're feeling. We know this is scary sometimes. We know There's a lot of stress here. You know? I think what creates a lot of struggle for folks is when They're not they're not aware that what they're feeling is appropriate for the situation. So I think it's really important to acknowledge that, yeah, This is high pressure. This is really stressful.

C If you're feeling tense, it's because we are all feeling tense, and I want to acknowledge, especially leaders acknowledging what they're doing and saying and how it might affect their team, I think it's really, really important because otherwise, people start to feel like they may not be feeling what others are are or that they're feel they're feeling something wrong, That something must be wrong with them because they're worried about it so much or that they're feeling a lot of stress and pressure. So I think the first thing is just acknowledging it. It really helps the entire culture and can help us all really make sense of what's happening. And and the way I work with folks co is really kind of a bottom up approach. So what's happening in my body, and therefore, that informs what's happening in my mind. So making sense of all that, I think I found really helps folks.

A I think that's a great insight, Allison. Like, I'm thinking about it from the individual co there's, like, multiple layers in the organization. There's the person who's managing at the top who has maybe, like, 20 to 30 years of experience, and they have learned to armor up in these scenarios. They've been conditioned to it. They understand how to, like, Emotionally protect themselves. And then you have people at different layers of the organization, like someone who's at the middle who's, you know, getting hit on all fronts, literally. And then the person who's, like, entering the profession for the 1st time and they're like, co Does anyone else see this car crash happening, or are we just not gonna talk about it? Like, I always felt, like, as a new employee or a younger employee in a firm, the silence in an architecture studio is scary for me because I can't measure if I'm the only one that's feeling anxious. And I know a lot of people do that as a tactic to, like, come across professionally and, like, armor up, but, like, you're saying and, like, show no weakness.

A Co But, like, there were definitely times where I was, like, freaking out, and everyone's not saying anything. There's no one to talk to about, like, how how overwhelming this profession can be at times, and it's isolating. It's super isolating.

C Well, which which makes it worse. Right? So The more isolated everybody feels, the worse it gets. And I don't I've been I've had I can think of a 1000000 times where I've said, are is there are you stressed too? Are you feeling overwhelmed? And I hear other people say yes, and I immediately feel less overwhelmed. So it's co It's just an acknowledging it, and sometimes people get afraid of acknowledging it and that it's gonna make it worse. It's actually gonna be it's kinda counterintuitive. Saying the thing actually helps the thing be less scary and big.

A Or acknowledging it to, like, a really tough guy in your firm that's, like, been practicing and getting his butt kicked for 15 to 20 years, and you don't wanna admit to that person that, like, co You're feeling maybe, like, a little uncomfortable about if you can get this deadline done. Like, what are you supposed to say? You know? It's tough. I do wanna come back to this idea around stress and anxiety. You mentioned that you always talk about this from the individual perspective, and you talk about how stress impacts our minds and our body. So why don't you walk us through some of the things that you talk to your students about on that?

C Co Is mental health in general, I think, is kind of taking a more of a shift into looking at a kind of a bottom up approach. A bottom up approach is kinda looking at What's happening in our bodies is then and our nervous system is really informing what's happening in our mind and in our brain thoughts. And, you know, used to be and and a lot of therapists, I still work this way in a lot of ways, is that we're doing a lot of talking and thinking And even talking about our emotions, but, the way I look at it and the way we can kind of look at stress, and co I think it helps. To me, I wanna know so why is connection important on a biological level? Why are some of these coping strategies helpful on level why what's the evidence for that? Why does it work? And so if you think about our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system co is really it's it's parasympathetic and then it's sympathetic. And so sympathetic is that fight or flight. It's like when we're feeling anxious, And then parasympathetic can be kinda looked at into branches. So there's one called ventral. I'm getting real technical here, but that's the name of it.

C It's co It's more ventral the the kind of ventral state is what we'll call it. And then another state is called dorsal or kind of a shutdown state. And so If you visualize a ladder, the ventral state is where we're feeling pretty at ease, able to connect. Co So great access to our prefrontal cortex of our brain, decision making, creativity, being able to have fun, And then sympathetic is, okay, I'm feeling anxious, stressed. It can even build up to a panic attack. And then co Dorsal would be more of this zoned out kind of dissociated feeling, very tired, kinda apathetic, not caring and even just feeling, you know, even real shut down about yourself or your future, kind of feeling hopeless all the way down to that state. And so that's just kind of a general co Framework for how I see and look at folks I work with and even myself, it's been helpful to know. And so The this idea of kind of chronic unchecked stress, it has pretty big impacts on our health and just functioning of our body.

C And so another way to think about it is is what people say, I'm really anxious or I'm really stressed, is actually a lot of alarm happening in our body. And so Our body is doing all these things to try to help us get to safety, essentially. So that's why our heart rate increases. That's why Our blood pressure can increase. That's why our we have, you know, gastrointestinal stuff going on. All kinds of things can, or we get really tired. All of those things are kind of ways our body is trying to keep us really safe. And so if we don't do things to help us get what I would call regulated, If we don't process that stress, that's when we can start to be in a really burned out place, and that's when people get really burnt.

C What do I would call burned out?

A Co Yeah. Let's go deeper into burnout because I think a lot of people are feeling that way and they don't know how to recover from it. You know, when you're actually, Allison, we were talking about this not too long ago. It was like when you finally hit the point of Burnout. They tell you that you're supposed to just stop, and you're like, but I'm overwhelmed And I'm burned out, and that feels terrible. And it's, like, just it's, like, this cycle of, like, perpetual like, trying to come out of it is really hard, And I don't even know I mean, there's there's tactics to avoid getting to the point of burnout, and then there's, like, what do you do when you're in burnout? Also what do you think?

B I also wanted to jump in and before I would love to hear, Allison, how you how you define burnout too because, For me, like, I I, like, didn't wanna believe that I've ever hit burnout, but I didn't realize that, For instance, me procrastinating on something was actually a symptom of being burnt out. So can you just start with the definition of of of burnout.

C Yeah. The way I would think about burnout, you know, if we look at it from the perspective of the nervous system co In those different states, we're we're you know, ideally, we're very flexible in between those states. We're we're not the idea isn't just to, like, stay in the regulated ventral place all the time. Nobody's gonna do that. The idea is a lot of flexibility between all those states and moving between them. Co So the way I think about burnout is getting stuck in a place where we're either, you know, just completely exhausted and kind of in that shutdown space co Or we're can't get out of being really amped up and anxious and worrying and having trouble sleeping. So That's what I think of as burnout is this kind of chronic unchecked level of stress, an unprocessed, so to speak, level of stress, And then kinda just feeling stuck in it, not being able to move out of it very easily into a right regulated place. And so then it starts affecting Not just work, but all areas of your life.

A Yeah. I've had to learn coping mechanisms that work for me on how to deal with co When I noticed that I'm mentally getting to this place, my therapist has helped me figure out what works for me, but I know it's different for everybody, but what are some common things that you would recommend people might do to find their way through burnout? Co

C Yeah. And I I wanted to mention. I think it's funny. You said they say you should just stop. Like, that's the therapist. Co That's all the therapists saying. You should just stop. You should take a break.

C And I know that's super annoying when therapists say things like that. Because because when you're in the midst of all the work that you're doing, that's the last thing it feels like you can do is stop and take a break. So just thought it was funny that

A co totally true. Yes. She said that to me several times, and I'm like, I knew you're gonna say that. Like, what do you want me to do?

C Yes. Yeah. Co I wanted to mention something else too, and we can I don't know if you wanna talk about it or not or if it would be helpful, but that kind of difference between feeling stressed and overwhelmed, co That overwhelm really does call for a pause? I mean, I you can't do anything else, and then stress is I need to call in some backup and help. Yeah. So with coping, though, the the way a lot of people kind of quote unquote try to cope, right, is through co What I mean, it's it's more of that armor. Right? It's so it's like, let me just, like, keep grinding harder at this thing co Or, and then there's the perfectionism, but also a lot of numbing and try you know, we're trying to feel better. So if we could look at it in a really loving, more compassionate way, which I I try to do, and I think that's ultimately a big an important strategy is a lot of compassion. Compassion doesn't mean I'm just gonna myself off the hook, but it's also helpful to see what our behaviors are doing.

C They're trying to help close. Right? So even just zoning out and numbing out on social media with food, with eating, with drinking, with other substances, All of those kind of numbing behaviors, they're really trying to bring us some relief. So it's it's a positive intention there, but it ends up creating more problems. So with burnout specifically, I'd say and and just as a preventative kind of proactive thing, but also If you find yourself saying, I'm in this just fatigued place all the time. I'm having a hard time caring about my work. I'm having a hard time caring about other people And myself, a big one, and these may seem kind of simple, but a really big one is just moving our bodies. By that, I do not mean exercise. Co It it's just moving your body in some way, so it could be just finding a way.

C Is it is it a short walk? Is it stretching at home? Is it moving your body? Is it tensing up all your muscles and then releasing them. Is it just getting up and and dancing? Is it co Whatever it is that feels comfortable for you, but actually moving your body. And that's another reason why I like to bring in the neurobiology because it It actually makes sense. This is the reason this is helping is actually making my nervous system feel safer, and it can actually function better. And it's getting me out of whatever state I'm stuck in, and so we need actual we need to bring literal movement to our body, and that helps us then either shift out shift out of that kinda shutdown place and give us bring some energy to our system, or it helps us move some of that energy so that we can get to a place where we're feeling a little bit more regulated. And another piece here is that we're since we're you know, really the way our system works best is connecting to others, And that includes all mammals, so I'd say an animal too, but really connecting with other other people and and in a positive way. So we we co regulate, and that's why isolation's so dangerous. That's why it doesn't like, Janine, you said, When you're in a, you know, in a firm, in a design studio, and, you know, at at a any place where it's there's so much tension that you can be felt, But everybody's silent about it and leads to more isolation.

C It starts to really alarm our nervous system. So connecting, Getting some camaraderie, acknowledgement, talking, laughing, interacting with other people is really, really helpful. So It may seem like the last thing you have time for or wanna do, but going for a walk with a friend, having dinner with somebody, even just talking to someone on the phone, co Best case would be face to face. What is really important to help our nervous system get back to a more regulated place. And then and others would be some specific breath work. So very specifically and this isn't for everybody. We have to experiment with what works best for ourselves, but, typically, when we when we are talking about breath work, a really simple thing to do would be inhale through our nose co And then a long exhale through your mouth. So when we're exhaling when we're exhaling, our heart rate's actually slowing down.

C And so we want the exhale to be longer. And in general, we naturally do this. And if you have animals, they naturally do this, but just a sigh. So just, like, Just, you know, doing a big sigh, and we can sigh out of frustration. Sometimes we sigh out of relief. Sometimes we sigh out of exhaustion, but sighing is a natural thing our body does. And it's a real simple thing, but letting ourselves do that And we can even kind of induce that with just kind of a double inhale through our nose and a long exhale through our mouth. And those little things throughout the day Can help keep us in a place where we're a little bit more regulated.

C And then in general, just just rest, getting adequate sleep, right, is really, really important. I mean, there's a reason why we haven't evolved past needing a certain amount of sleep because it's not really convenient, but we really do need sleep. Co And so taking care of that as much as we can and then being able to play. You know, having play in our life is really, really important, and it helps actually helps our nervous system because we're with play, we're we're getting kind of amped up, And then we're resting, and then we're getting amped up, and we're resting. So it's really helping us get more flexible in that way. And and the other one I wanted to mention is just finding meaning co And really knowing revisiting back to our values. You know? Why is this important to me? Why why is what I'm doing important, and why does it matter? What why am I here? You know, these big kind of existential questions, But having some meaning in our life and making meaning about what we're doing really, really does and can help a whole lot in this kind of just emotional exhaustion and fatigue. And so I would say those things, both in a body and kind of mind, peace, in part would or can be really, really helpful if done on a regular basis, but really to just revisit if we're feeling really depleted.

B I'm glad you wrapped in the meaning piece of it, because for me, that's the ability for firm leaders to actually build a culture that is less stress inducing by creating We're helping create meaningfulness in the work that everybody is doing and what that what their contributions mean to the bigger whole. Co I feel like Janine and I talk a lot about millennials and especially Gen z wanting to work in purpose driven co Or or pur we're purpose driven companies or purpose driven organizations. And then I hear a lot of partners saying, oh, well, we do sustainable housing, sustainable co multifamily housing. It, by nature, is purpose driven. But I don't think we kind of co revisit the values and what that means and the outcome and what it means to the community as much when you're, like, heads down doing construction documents for a deadline, you know, to get it in time for a permit set. So I'm glad you brought it back to meaning because I do feel like, Again, that is something that principals can set the tone to help everyone in the organization cope and

C cope a

B little bit better. I feel like they're in a collaborative environment, not so isolated, and and how their work they do really is meaningful to the bigger whole. Co

C Mhmm. Yeah. I think, also, just identifying from the outset what are your firm's values co And really continuing to come back to those, and that can be a very good litmus test on what we're doing, how are we treating the folks that are working for us, how are we talking to clients, all of it in in revisiting that and continuing to come back to the firm's values, but, also, I really believe, and I think org it helps organizations a lot for everyone to know everyone's top two values because you then you learn a lot about why someone makes the decisions they make and what's really important to them. So I think knowing our values and knowing the the values of the firm can be really, really helpful in being really explicit and clear And helps yeah. It definitely helps with giving more meaning and helping people. I think another piece I wanted to make sure I mentioned, and it goes with belonging, is Everyone in the firm feeling like they matter. So this concept of that I've been kind of digging more into that I think is really interesting is this idea of mattering. Co Really, really important and can really help with both shame resilience, but help with burnout and help with all of these issues that, You know, it keeps us and prevents people going down that road of that spiral of perfectionism.

A Yeah. The matter part, it's like, I didn't know how to articulate that for a long time. Like, it's not enough for me to work in a firm. It's also that, like, You value me, and you're emotionally invested in me. And it's really obvious when it's not authentic co Even if you try to make it so, and that if I left, that you would miss me and it would matter. Like, there it would matter. Like, I don't know how else to explain it. Like, there would be a void, and I think that's what unfortunately causes a lot of people to leave Because those things don't get said or they're assumed to be true, and then it's just too late.

A And then someone goes, and the opportunity's gone.

B I think going back to the this idea of perfectionism though, and this idea of being armored up, like, that is that is a, like a very big generational struggle that I am feeling right now in architecture in terms of what people the generations coming in are really desiring and what has been learned and trained from the leaders that currently exists at the top. Co

A I think that's a good point, Evelyn, because that was one thing I always struggled with. Obviously, I'm a very empathetic, co But being someone that communicates with emotion, and it's always been weird in situations where co There's, like, a senior level leader of a firm who has armored up their entire life. I think that's a nice way to say it. Co lacks that emotional depth. It's hard to bridge, you know, with that person, and it's hard to make that connection. It creates co limits on connection, and and I don't know their ability to co Move towards me because they I'm speaking basically a different language than them entirely.

B I guess my question to Alison would be then, if you're in this situation where you wanna be a more connected leader, But you actually really struggle with identifying where you are in the spectrum and how much you've armored up. Is there is there something that like, are there exercises that I could do to co To be more self aware of how I'm coming across to to my team. Co I I guess I'm concerned that the leaders aren't self aware enough to to make the change.

C Well, I mean, if if Somebody that is in a leadership position, let's say, is listening to this or maybe co Somebody sends them this. I would say so if if there are problems if you're in leadership and there are things that are frustrating that are trading that are happening when there's issues. It's, you know, issues like there are people maybe moonlighting. There are people doing this thing. There are people co It's silent in the in the space or what you know, if there's issues that are coming up, I think it's really important for all leaders to look at themselves and To look at how how are they modeling. Right? How are they modeling and what and and even co What what are they doing then to be more curious about themselves? Because the other piece here is it's not about shaming leaders that are real armored up. You know, the they're doing that for, you know, good reason, probably. Right?

A To be armored up out on the job site. Co That's where it's helpful. And in contract negotiations, very good.

C But at the same time, it's it's yeah. It's being able to co Get curious about our own humanness, and and, you know, Janine, you were talking about being emotional. I mean, we're all being led by emotion. We're either aware of it or not. So we're all being led by emotion, really, and, really, we're being led by our nervous system. I mean, that's what it really comes down to. People just don't talk about it in that way that much, And so they've just learned and adapted to these strategies to get really armored up. But the thing is We have to ask ourselves, and leaders have to ask themselves, is what I'm doing working? It's kinda like, you know, I've done that and talked people in family therapy before and been like, well, how's that working for you? The this doing the same thing that you've been doing is still getting the same thing, so we can't just grind harder at that.

C And it's really hard. I mean, you know that you're doing vulnerability right when it's really excruciating. Super uncomfortable. This is not real fun, and, like, that felt great. It's it's really hard and really uncomfortable to look at ourselves and then be able to Communicate curiosity, uncertainty, and within acknowledge just even acknowledging our own feelings is really, Really can be really uncomfortable and really hard work. So, I mean, there are I can think of lots of resources for 1 in particular, I would say, that all leaders should should read, but there are and and and then there's so much value in bringing someone else in co that can see help you see blind spots. I know, you know, Janine, you've you've worked with organizations. I've worked with organizations in really helping them see They're blind spots, and it's helpful sometimes to have somebody from the outside come in and, you know, help those leaders do that hard work And to start to shift things so things start to to change and acknowledging what hasn't been working is part of that.

C You know? I think of or my organizational work is a lot like family therapy in a way, and a big piece of parenting and co Work being with a partner and any kind of family work is about repair. And so we we will always have ruptures. We will always have Issues that come up, missteps that come up, but if we can repair and that that definitely transfers over into the work environment. If leaders can get really good at repair, it really helps the whole culture.

A And and I wanna emphasize this. All have blind spots.

C Mhmm.

A We all do. It's universal.

B I also think I mean, my biggest thing is we co Is if it's if it's not the armor, we also deflect. Like, it's not my problem that they are moonlighting. It is co Their attitude is that is that generation that wants to do this thing, but I don't know. I I I think in in Allison, in hearing you talk and hearing I'm relistening and always learning more about Janine on these conversations as well. I think it's I just get concerned that I'm not concerned, but I but I but I kind of I see the the struggle of, like, We've always done it this way before, and it's worked. Why is this incoming generation different? And, like like, why do I have to why do I have to change to make them work better? Yeah. For them to to bring them along. So, like, how how do you respond to

C that? Yeah. The way I've, co Especially when I've worked with and been talking to, let's say, the faculty at the college of design, is acknowledging that things have changed. Current conditions are different. I think designers can hear that and understand that idea of what are the current conditions, what do we have to work with. Co And even if this is the way we wanna do it, we have to acknowledge what the conditions are and have to be responsive to that. I think most designers can understand that idea of responsiveness, and so we really leaders have to be responsive to what's happening. Co And what we know what's happening is and the reason you've now had, you know, several episodes now about mental health. The reason I've been brought in at NC State is because they're really people talk about a mental health crisis, and there's mental health need, and People are struggling, and it really is true, but I I do think part of the answer isn't just I mean, I I love therapists, obviously, But it's not just about sending people to therapy and getting more therapists out there that I do fully support that, but it's also about, co You know, leaders being responsive and changing the way we even practice.

C It's it's teaching differently in in the colleges of design. It's, You know, educating folks differently. It's integrating into the curriculum, and it's also integrating and, you know, leading differently co Because this generation and all of us have gone through a collective trauma in the last few years, we we are struggling for lots. There's a 1000000 different reasons co That we could go through in a probably another episode. But there's so many reasons why we're all struggling, and we are having a hard We're all struggling in some way, and so we've all gotta have we have a responsibility to each other, I think, because we all do better if we all do better. So there has to be a responsiveness to just how things have changed, and the new generation coming up now

A co I totally love that you brought it back to the NC State College of Design and the work that you guys are doing on this pilot program. I think it's super innovative and interesting, co And I'm excited. I wanna give, a shout out to Claire.

C Yes. I

A know she's probably listening. And also Matt who is the one that co encouraged me to go deeper on this episode. Those are 2 friends here in Raleigh that Allison and I hang out with. But to bring it back To our listeners, I just wanna close with this last question that it's about what can our listeners due to support their mental health. What closing comments do you have to share with them on next steps?

C Yeah. I I think Definitely wanna I also wanna give Claire a shout out though too. She's been really yeah. We we wouldn't be doing the work we're doing in NC State without without Claire. She was really the a big connecting factor. She's doing a lot of work in integrating mental health there as well. And I think going forward, co What I the most the I think the most important thing I I would hope people take from this is one of my favorite words is curiosity And just being more curious about themselves, being more curious if you're a leader, being more curious about yourself and Those that are working with you and that you're leading and making sure to just being curious about what's happening inside you co And, you know, maybe exploring a little bit more about your nervous system. I think the more we know about that, the co Better we can then be and more responsive we can be to ourselves, and there's value in these small things done consistently.

C So we have to do them consistently, and they can be very small. So taking 5 breaths that have a long exhale, co You know, making sure we get enough water to drink and, you know, making sure we have time that we laugh with a friend or reach out to somebody and moving our body, Even for 5 minutes at a time makes a huge impact and makes a really big difference, and and in general, just being kinder to ourselves. I mean, that's a lot of my work, co You know, when I work with folks in my therapy office, it's a the big piece is being really kind to ourselves, and being kind to ourselves co Doesn't mean letting ourselves get off, you know, off the hook on just scrolling for 4 hours even though I'm guilty of that sometimes too. It's it's about co Being kind enough to to encourage ourselves to do those things are really important, and I think that I'm hopeful hopeful that people will co Be kinder and more curious and be willing to kind of practice and experiment with some of these things.

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