Architecture, And: Ownership, Mergers, and Tech Startups

A I'm Evelyn Lee, and I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. We always try to bring on individuals within the architectural space who have found themselves on unique career paths, and this week's guest continue to highlight the various career journeys available to architects.

A Alma Lopez has over 15 years in workplace experience and has established herself as a visionary in the industry. Mexican American from Texas, she made her way to the Bay Area to study interior architecture and design at the Academy of Art University. As the head of creative at Kanoa, Alma is currently focused on bringing to market a diverse curation of brands, products, and ready to use design templates that buy sustainable solutions and share carbon data. By doing so, she aims to create better access to healthier solutions for people and our planet. Co Alma cofounded a POC experience design studio in 2021, Editions, where she focused on helping clients embrace the fast changing world of workplace and community activations supporting underrepresented artists throughout the US. In over 2 years, co Editions worked on pilot programs focused on iterative and experiential environments through custom FF and E solutions. In 2022, editions merged with Kanoa. Alma's exceptional work caught the attention of tech giants co Resulting in her designs being featured in publications such as Architectural Digest, Wallpaper, and The New York Times.

A Co Before additions, her multifaceted career has spanned across working for notable design studios, o plus a and assembly, Where she spent years designing small to large scale tech workspaces all around the world, having worked on global projects with Uber, co Alibaba, Yelp, Google, Unity, and Cisco. Her work has been recognized in Interior Design Magazine Inc, world's coolest offices, fast company, and won the good design award in furniture.

B Elizabeth or Liz Orr is head of brand at Kanoa. Liz spent 14 years in the interior design industry having a diverse range of roles in commercial interior design and branding and marketing. Working with major furniture manufacturers, global furniture dealerships, and cofounding her own design and strategy studio with Alma Editions in 2021. Co So now at Kanoa, she focuses on brand design and development and go to market strategies to grow Kanoa's interior design user base. Her work focuses on telling stories around the evolving craft of interior design, new technology adoption, and the power of community. Liz has also been featured at Milan Design Week, The New York Times, Architectural Digest, and Sight Unseen, to name a few. Co Lee studied interior architecture and design at Academy of Art University in 2011 and later went on to complete an executive education Stanford d School CFI certification program, which is on customer focused innovation in 2019.

A We featured Kanoa CEO, Federico Negro in season 3 of practice disrupted in episode 67, and we're gonna post the link to that episode in the show notes. It's one of our most downloaded episodes. But within the business, it's taken quite a few pivots since that moment in time for the business to continue to evolve and grow to what it is today. Our focus today with Alma and Liz will look at their evolution from firm ownership to mergers and what it's like to work in a tech start up and also get an update on what they're working on in Konowa today.

B So we've done the formal bios. Welcome, Alma and Liz. I'm so glad to have you on the show. I feel like we've been talking on and off about how Kanoa and practice of architecture can partner more in the future. So taking this step on Practice Disrupted, we are super happy to have you here. Anything you would like to add that you want our listeners to know about you before we jump into the conversation.

C Thanks, Janine and Evelyn, for having us. This is kind of a funny, hard question. Something that people who know me know this, but those that are listening it may not know co is that I'm American, but I'm actually a third culture kid. My dad worked for the defense department, so I actually grew up traveling around the world, living in different cultures and places, and so I lived in Morocco, Texas, and and Germany for for 10 years before landing in San Francisco for college, which was kind of, like, the first time as an American that I actually got to experience America, Which definitely has impacted me in in personally and in my career.

D Thanks so much, Evelyn and Jolene, for having us on. We're excited to be here. I think, you know, I think most people that know me probably or or or just seen for me just probably get, like, this big burst of co Energy for me, and it's very infectious. I think maybe the only thing I can say is about just about, like, my history a little bit. I co for being a POC and and being a rep you know, representing for that, but also it'll tie in a little bit to why, you know, we are here at Kanoa co And and what we're doing here and why and really why a part of it, it was an excitement to merge with with them. But it is because, you know, not growing up around these co Tools are not growing up around design in that sense and, you know, moving here to San Francisco to actually learn a skill and and being fortunate to have, You know, worked with some of the best people in the industry in design, you know, again, to really learn a skill because I was, you know, hand you know, handed these co and create however I wanted really was the premises for my growth and why I'm here. So I think it's very important to I know I'm not the only one that didn't grow up around design, so the fact that I got here when I was 20 years old and really the first time I experienced that to be here now, I think, is pretty powerful. And, You know, I wanna make sure that we, you know, also find there are ton of other people like this, and I really think that this is part of the DNA for me personally in coming here co

A So I'm assuming you all met in San Francisco, or where did you meet?

C So co Our our our history. Alma and I both went to Academy of Art University. She was a year ahead of me, and we it was kinda funny because we knew of each other, and we had some mutual friends, but we didn't really hang out that much. But I would always see her stuff in, like, the spring show, and then I'd be like, I want my stuff in spring show, and then I would work really hard and get my stuff in the spring show because I would see Alma's work. And so I think from, like, a distance, We, like, knew each other, kind of respected each other. And then when we both graduated, we went our separate ways and kinda still kind of, like, watched each other at afar, and I think it wasn't until was it 2018 that we reconnected randomly during Milan Design Week. Co She happened to randomly walk into the same bar that I was at very late at night, and we were like, co Liz kinda caught up and and it had been like a 10 year span almost. And so realized that through, you know, working at different firms and manufacturers cultures that we both had ended up at competing furniture dealerships in kind of the same creative director role.

C And so from then on, we just really connected and touch base with each other. We shared a lot of of the same passions and co pain points of the industry and then also shared a lot of, like, excitement around where the industry was going. And so I think that that really helped us between 2018 and 2022, which we all know what happened then, and kinda stay grounded and connected, not only for ourselves, but also within within the industry.

B It's interesting to me that I mean, the San Francisco design community is relatively small, especially those that are working on the workplace side, and then you guys co each other in a in a bar in another country as, like, the new as, like, the reintroduction to one one another.

C Co Yeah. During during Milan Design Week. So we were there, you know, for work and and celebrating design at a global scale, which was Just an amazing experience. So it kind of felt kinda kismet in a sense that our reconnection was us. Co They're learning and celebrating together, which was which was nice.

B And, I mean, it is fair to say that I do know a lot of workplace co Individuals that like, the 2 shows that they attend are Milan Design Week and NeoCon. So if we were to, like, transport anywhere else, I mean, it makes sense, but it I just find that that it's funny right now.

C Yeah. Yeah. It is. It happened

B that way. So tell us about the transition from being in that bar again in Milan Design Week and really deciding to start a company together because I feel like starting and founding a company together. Yeah. It's like it's equivalent of, like, many people would equate that to, you know, getting married. So how how did you guys decide to do this? Co

D Yeah. It you're right. It is it is a marriage, and I think that I'll go in a little deeper because Liz is always telling me I'm the one with the emotions and the feelings of those. But it it is it is co I think our interactions since that time, we just kept in touch. And, again, we would always, you know, reach out to each other when we had these pain points. And think, really, for us, the point was I think we just respected and admired what we were both doing, and we were just trying to move the needle in any capacity that we could have. Right? So, You know, kinda going back to being in Milan and then, you know, a time in in January of of 2021 ended up coming over to Liz's, and we were just co Talking about the work, and I think it just that night, we just talked about these dreams of what we can accomplish. And, You know, I think it just I don't know.

D It just, like, clicked for us. And after that, it was like I couldn't unsee it. And then, you know, we That night, we actually ended up, like, putting Post Its all over Liz's kitchen wall and and living room and started to just create what additions was. We had no idea. And I think co The difference is, you know, I think Liz and I both had opportunities to start business with other people, but I think with Liz in particular, She just reciprocated every single thing that I was doing, and there was no, like, wait. It wasn't like, let's do this. Let's catch up next week. It was like, the next morning, Liz, like, showed up and was like, Hey.

D I thought about this last night, and I just did this whole, like, strategic map because Liz has, like, had her strategic mind hat on. And then I'm like, my god. Like, she really wants to do this. So then I think for for me, you know, just it was a no brainer for both of us. And then I will say a funny story is After we kinda had some huge successes, because, obviously, we knew each other but not on this business level. I think maybe, like, 6 or 8 months in, we co Kinda had a a a 1 on 1 kind of conversation, and I was like, you know, I have to admit, Liz, I was really scared to do this with you, but, like, I trusted you because you were so confident. And she's like, Ella, I did the same thing. I I trusted you because you were comment confident.

D And for me, I was like, had we have told each other that we were so insecure and not confident, I don't think that that would've this would've came off the same way because we would've second guessed ourselves, but because I trusted her and she trusted me, like, it really was a leap of faith of, like, It is a marriage of like, hey. Like, I trust you, and we're gonna jump together, and you're reciprocating. And it's definitely one of the healthiest relationships that that I've had, so co

A Yeah. I feel that way about Evelyn. Like, when we jumped into doing the podcasting together, like, it was really much about co We both had this shared passion for something, and we I felt stronger with her than, co Like, without, you know, her, because that she was doing something that was so unique, and I hadn't seen anybody else kinda go step in that direction before, so it was really amazing to, you know, have that partnership. And I always am, like, hesitant on saying something like this, but, like, you both are fairly young in your careers. And, I mean, it it's notable to me that you're both women, and, like, can you tell us to the extent that you feel comfortable, like, where were you at in your career when you guys started, and how long has the company existed?

C Yeah. So so started at 2021. I think, Alma, what we were both well, it's kinda funny. We were both in the same place in our careers where at the firm's the studios that we were at. We had really wanted to, you know, get a director position and to really be not only acknowledged as leaders, but also promoted into the work that we thought co we were doing and to really help the companies that we were working with, like, lead them in in a way that we saw an exciting opportunity within the industry even during the pandemic. Co And we were having a lot of friction getting there. And so it's kind of funny because then we went and started a new business and all of a sudden become cofounders. And We called ourselves creative directors instead of principals because we didn't want, like, the stodgy architectural, like, traditional titles and also just How we were building our own studio was a little bit different.

C And so we kind of what was interesting because Alma actually ended up getting promoted right before she left, which you can tell that story, Alma. But it really came out of this this feeling of frustration within our industry as young women that We were producing good work. We were thought leaders, but we kept asking others to have us be at their table. And it wasn't until we created our own table co and invited people in that we actually started to see so much success within our careers. And so it's kind of funny, you know, question and conversation about where were you co In your career because we weren't in director positions, but we were because we believed in ourselves. And as soon as we did and we brought others in, really, really our lives changed.

D Co Yeah. And to add to that, you know, certainly, it's it's never to say anything negative about, like, any of the companies, you know, when people leave. Right? It really is If you wanna do your own thing and and make a mark on the world and and make an imprint, like, you you have to do your own thing. Right? Because you're always gonna follow co The vision of the leaders there, which is un which is understandable. Right? And it just it just felt like we had been craving this new co way of design and the fact that, like I mean, I think the big thing that we haven't even mentioned is it happened during COVID. Right? So this all happened when Things were very uncertain, and we just it was just something that we we couldn't sleep anymore. Right? We were just very, like, this is different. This is it.

D And, like, We're gonna miss our chance because we all know that timing is everything. And I think that we did it at the right time, and we never had to force clients to come over, any any every everything just magnetically really came to us, which I think just made it so we were very, very aligned, and I think that's why we were very, very successful, and we I think we saw a whole industry of people. For the poor ones, they also saw like, felt seen because of what we were doing. So I think It was very important to us to continue on that path, whoever wanted to join us.

A Can you articulate, like, what it is that that is that spark that, like, called both of you in and that other people started recognizing. What is that piece that you saw?

C I was gonna say just, like so for context as we talk about this, it was, co is a, creative studio focused on creating new forms of connection through spatial experiences. Co And so instead of going in and saying, you know, we wanna become an architectural practice focused on workplace or commercial or retail. Co We really wanted to go deep into this, like, human centric approach of what is the new form of connection and how does space help foster that. Co And so we started with that concept. And part of that concept just based off of our backgrounds of of interior design and architecture and, co Really furniture design and furniture procurement. What we realized in 2020 and 2021 was that there's this huge opportunity for companies that were needing to do new test fits and strategies, but they needed to implement them fast and learn in the pandemic. And so we realized that For the next 2 to 3 years, all of this is gonna be done through furniture, and it needs to be, you know, quick 6 week design sprints And then implementation needed to happen really fast. And the reality of that, I think a lot of people kind of saw that, but the reality of that is that the implementation of that Was really hard.

C And so how we were able to do that was through kind of this community centric approach, which is one of the values of of Both of us that we have even carried into Kanawha, and that's how do we source locally, how do we engage makers and fabricators, And then also engage our customers, which wouldn't you know, between 6 or 7 different customers, we know furniture they don't need anymore. So can we actually sell it to another customer co to outfit their space, and so it became this, like, huge community working together and actually bringing, like, a lot of workplace leaders together, bringing Different companies together to be like, how can we start to find and source things that then become environmentally friendly? We're supporting each co and we're actually supporting the local economy that was having such a hard time and actually really helping those those makers last COVID. And so I think that's what with Alma to add on to what you were saying is that the community out here in San Francisco just saw it. In such kind of a dark time. There was just a lot of energy and abundance happening.

D And I think it's like what was said. Right? Like, the and I'm surprised you didn't say this list because it was really the whole reason why we Editions was, like, we don't we don't wanna work we don't wanna do workplace anymore. We were like, we're gonna do some fun stuff, and we're like, we're gonna do exhibitions in community, co Like, pop ups and a lot of that came from, you know, because of COVID, and and at least me personally, I I like you know, when it was very like, no one's buying furniture, and no one was doing anything. And, like, to get these co Calls from all the all my friends who are in the, like, brands and and local fabricators of, like, like, the desperation of, like, Alma, like, is there any projects you could put me in? Like, do you know anything? I just, like, bought a new studio, like and I I have nothing coming in. Like And it was I felt so helpless. Right? As somebody who who, you know, was leading the furniture design and and and the procurement at this, you know, previous company, it was co It was like I could do nothing, but, like, watch it kind of all fall. And I think we all saw in SF how immediately it just went down, and I think I never I I was like, we have to do something. We have to do something and continue to uplift them, and, really, that's that's was the the DNA of of co editions of exhibitions and community, and we're like, okay.

D We're gonna have a pop up. And we posted 1 Instagram photo of us co Starting our business in May when we officially launched, and all of a sudden, like, tech started hitting us up. And and I was like, well, Maybe we should do tech a little bit because we need money to actually fund the things because we just both put our jobs in the middle of pandemic. So that's really kinda how it went. Co And, Liz, I know you could chime in on it, but it was, you know, it was

C whirlwind. It was a whirlwind.

D We had never planned ever Ever planned on on being on getting so busy. And I think because we had planned on doing the pop up in October, November, and December, and and finding space co For the community pop up was also very hard, which is its own challenges, but we it just was never set up for community. And I'd like to think that we had an impact on San Francisco because now I see more pop ups happening, but it really was hard to do that in the beginning. And When people showed up at those pop ups, it just felt like they're alive.

C Just to add on, it was it's funny. When we started, we just did 1 Instagram post of a picture of us together saying we started a company, and as Alma said, a lot of people just started reaching out, which we thought, you know, we were gonna have to, like, amp up marketing and business development, but immediately got called. And within, like, the 1st year and a half, like, the impact that we had was we were close to designing close to a 1000000 square feet of office space furniture in the middle of the pandemic, which was insane. Co And, you know, unfortunately, we can't say a lot of the tech companies' names, but we were working with a lot of big tech companies and bringing in the community, and it was just one of the rewarding experiences that we actually have had to witness. And even seeing some of the big tech companies actually really caring about, co Yes. I want to source local. How are we all in this together? It was it was pretty incredible.

D Yeah. We were brokering deals from, like, Somebody that didn't want their they wanted to switch up their furniture, and then they wanted other furniture. So we were, like, brokering deals without even realizing what we were doing of, like, this is pre owned, This is pre owned. We're SMICs, and then both of them were our clients. And then all and then, again, the COVID time, like, everything was backed up. Nobody is going doing construction. No permits are going through. Literally was just FF and E, and because we had experience in that, we were just, like, moving so quickly.

D And, you know, we even got asked from the big design firms. Co Like, they're like, can we partner on things with you? You guys are, like, getting really busy. Like, how can we help? And we can be your like, just it just the everywhere we were going, it just co kept blossoming, and I think it was it is going back to the power of the community, the community that we've built in SF and everyone really showing up for us and not Feeling like we're competing because I really truly think people are rooting for us in in in a positive way to be successful because We were just breaking a lot of barriers at the time and, like, discovering what we thought was the right approach for, you know, workplace at the time with the tools at hand.

B So it's interesting to me that you said you guys didn't wanna do workplace, and then I'm hearing a lot of, you know, like, what you did regarding moving Fentrini furniture and kind of reselling furniture. Like, I I see a lot of that built into to Kanoa now. So when did you first get introduced to Fed and the team? And then Like, where did that conversation between the 2 of you come from? Like, we've just we have all of this energy behind what we're doing, and now we're going to kind of announce another change to what we're doing.

C Yeah. Well, I think I think from a professional practice standpoint so we we met the CEO Federico of Kanoa through one of our advisers. Co And so when Alma and I started editions, one of the things that we initially did just to pretty much give us feedback and make sure that we were on track is that we co Set set up an advisory board and which consisted of Melissa Shelton, president of EITRA North America, Chris Hansell, who's at CBRE, Liz Guerrero, who is a design director at Rivian, and then Omar Ramirez, who is an entrepreneur and does a lot of different things, but At the time, had his own consultancy called Affordances. And so he knew because we were sharing our business practices and strategies and where We were wanting to go, and so he actually had met Kanoa. And then because he knew what we were doing, he was like, you 2 need to meet. Co And so he set up a meeting for us. And I think the initial meeting with Fed, we saw this technology that co Really was taking into practice what Alma and I were doing from a manual level in building technology around design, sourcing, co Scaling, you know, purchasing, and making what we were doing into, like, a legitimate scalable business backed by technology. Co And so we were initially kind of, like, blown away because we had never seen anything like that in the industry.

C We both were like, man, I wish we had this we were junior designers or when we were working at furniture dealerships, because it really brought a tech stack into 1 versus having to operate in, like, 10 different technologies, which we were doing at additions. And so all of a sudden, by kind of becoming early adopters of it, we were able to legitimately scale our business, hire 6 people take on a bunch of different customers because we now have this technology that we could find products. We could, you know, layout products. Our floor plans were live with enriched data versus it taking, you know, weeks weeks to do. We could do our work within, like, a matter of a couple of hours, which was a game changer for us. I don't know, Amma, if that that's, like, more of the business Clyde, and then there was, like, how we really connected with the team.

D Yeah. So I think, yeah, everything was said, and I think really, you know, co It it kind of happened pretty quickly, I have to say. It's not like we sat on this for, like, months. I think it was really within, like, days that we knew, You know, that we wanted to join, and I think, you know, obviously, you guys have had Federico on this on your on your podcast, so you can already see the person that he is, the vision that he's creating and, like, so passionate and to you know, obviously, him being the founder and everyone else, You know, also have that same infectious, you know, sort of personality and, like, drive and passion. It just it just felt like they were our people To to do something with. And, you know, I kinda going back to the conversation at the beginning of, like, you know, I I personally had had never grew up around design and art and and co To, you know, think about, you know, all the other designers in, you know, in the world that junior designers, right, that are probably churning and doing good work. And, you know, we all know in this industry that you have to do at least 15, 20 years till you start making an impact. And, you know, and I under you know, I understand for that reason.

D Right? There's a hierarchy, but, like, but why? You know, why can't, you know, everyone just, you know, bring because I mean, I think of myself like, I was in the corner doing, I don't know, restrooms for a while, doing 3 d, and it's like, sure. Like, let's build foundations, but, like, I also had, You know, inspiration and things that I wanted to do. And, thankfully, I I was it was at studios that really disallowed me to grow in that, but I I know not everyone has those opportunities. So for me, it's personal, and I think to have a tool that and this is exactly what FEDSSA do. It's like we have co move the scale even if it's 0.001. Like, we move it, and he's like, and we change something. And I think that was, for me, the word the phrase that he said co Honestly, they'd be so emotional, and I just like, we're going. We're going.

D Like, we're gonna do this. And, you know, obviously, that that happened at night when we were at Townedge Grill in San Francisco. Over a couple of our titties, I'll admit that. And then the next morning, we were like, did did that really, like, offer us to join? Co I immediately had text and was like, I just want you know, I had a good time, and I met everything I said. And I'm like, oh my god. We're going. So I think that that was really, like I mean, I told the backstory because it was such a genuine connection and really to get the to get the opportunity to Do what we're doing on auditions, but do it globally and actually build this tool. We really feel like we're the ones to do it.

D Like, a 100% believe, like, we I've experienced it all and want to bring this tool to everyone and so that everyone feels seen because it really is. Good design should be accessible to everyone, Not just the elite, not just people that have made a name for themselves, not just, you know, people that, you know, are rich or everything. Right? So I think that that for for me, co For Liz and I, it was very, you know, pivotal to why we decided to leave because we were you can you can speak to, like, the projects we're having. We were in a fork in the road. It was It wasn't hard, but it was, like, we left a lot.

C Yeah. We left we we left a lot, but but I think it was it was just the natural progression. And I know we're gonna little bit about how interior design skills relate to a lot of different things, and it was kind of an moment for us because I don't think any of us ourselves at a at a tech company building software, but it was this conversation that we had of, okay, do we stay and we go the traditional route and we scale our studio, and we keep working with the 1% that can actually afford our services. Or do we go and build a software co With an amazing team that actually helps the interior design industry do better. And so it was, you know, Do we make a name for ourselves, or do we go and try and influence and help interior designers to, you know, design better whether that's healthier spaces, more sustainable spaces through technology. And so it was kind of like a no brainer. Like, we gotta do this. We gotta help everyone.

C Co

A First of all, it it warms my heart hearing that this business still happened at Tadich Grill, for sure. Like, how San Francisco can you get? Co Fed is pretty magnetic, and I like, obviously, he's had this vision for Kanoa, and we talked about in the last episode, but for our new listeners that are maybe don't really totally understand, can you talk about the impact that that Kanoa is having? Co Who's using it? Where do you see the most immediate return? And as it's been growing, I guess, the vision that you all are trying to work towards.

C So Kanoa is an AI assisted collaborative online tool for interior designers to create co And share data rich mood boards, layouts, and product schedules with their teams. So who does that mean? What it means is that this is really the 1st tool that's browser based. So anyone at the same time can be working together collaboratively, and they don't have to download or share files. Co So lets teams work together. It also lets them work on an infinite canvas so you can go from mood boarding with, like, amazing imagery or products to actually working into scale floor plans in that infinite canvas. And then the really amazing thing about it co is oftentimes, there's, like, a big disconnection between, like, concepting and then actually, like, the tactics of getting, you know, schematic co In procurement. And so what this does is you can actually use our AI proprietary AI tool over products, co Product imagery or even concept imagery, and it will actually give you recommendations that are in the catalog of Kanoa That have real price points, real lead times. So your concepts and your designs, you can really download the schedule, and you really have your budget and your ROM so that you can actually co Order the stuff right after you're done designing.

C And so from that, it really cuts co A majority of the design process not only down, it actually enhances the designer's experience and being able to focus co On a lot of the creative stuff that that they're so good at versus having to work between 3 or 4 technologies to make sure, like, I love my concept. I finally got approval, but, like, shit. This this furniture piece is now out of stock or that furniture piece was way too expensive. I now need to value engineer and take a couple weeks to figure it out. It really brings that entire process together, which is is really powerful.

D And I think to add to that is, like, to to understand the co furniture industry, but then the design industry, right, it it is it's almost like they function in 2 different they function differently because you have, Like procurement, and then, obviously, you have the designers that pick the furniture. So to have a a platform that, again, what Elizabeth said, combines them together and then co Educating the designers from the beginning, which is what our big Canvas launch is happening, is, again, just so instrumental to them. But I think the biggest part too is co It's the brands. Right? I think for a long time, brands and suppliers, you know, these beautiful furniture brands never really had a place co to showcase their work. It's always like a I gotta go, like, make a lunch and learn meeting at, you know, so and so today, and they're just moving and moving and moving. And I think to now have a platform where they can actually go in there and update their information and and own own it and then also be able to create inspiration boards and co Their own design because they're also designers too. Right? Like, designers aren't just, like, people that were at architecture firms. They're graphic designers.

D They're just, you know, designers at in house somewhere, And everyone's creative, so I think this is where it's like Knoa is like a platform for everyone, and designers are everyone, whoever wants to be that. And we're just really giving them the tool to be able to access good data. So I think, again, the biggest which is what I'm doing right now is is focus on the suppliers and the co in the brands and really giving them another creative outlet and another sales channel for them to be in front of these designers up front Upstream, and that's never existed before visually. So I feel like this is where this is gonna be huge for co The brands, not only just the designers. It really is touching this, you know, archaic industry and actually forcing us to to be better co And to be smarter and and efficient. So now the power in the data is is important.

C Well, in acknowledging, I think we always say this at Kanoa and, like, acknowledging that, like, design is never done alone, and I think our industry puts people into buckets and silos them, unfortunately. Oh, you're at this brand. That must mean you're, like, a sales rep. Like a furniture brand. You're just a sales rep, or you're an interior designer, or you're an architect, or you're an engineer, or you're a furniture dealer. Co There's just so many gamuts within our industry, but you're siloed, and then, like, that's kind of the trajectory that you get to stay within. But the reality is that we all have to work together to be successful. And so the fact that there hasn't been a technology co That brings us all together yet is is kind of crazy.

C Right? We have platforms like AIA and IIDA and and a lot of others that are that are great for networking, but to actually work and get the work done has never really existed before, co Especially when it comes to furniture because we're borrowing from ground up construction technologies. So that that's for us really. I think the really exciting thing is, yes, practice and workflows and and helping designers have better craft or helping the the industry have better craft, but it Keeps going back to, like, this whole concept of community. It's all driven by the community.

B There's so much to unpack, I think, in co In in everything you guys just said. First of all, this is obviously an audio platform, so we will co put, like, a a little demo clip in the show notes so anyone who visits the podcast episode can at least see what we're we're talking about, and then, obviously a link out to Kanoa. I think the technology is you guys gave me a first look at it, and the technology is really interesting. Co And understanding, like, literally being more on the owner side of it, but, like, understanding lead times and get getting, like literally, I say, it's like adding things to my shopping cart at Amazon and being able to, like, co hit order and understand, like, exactly how much that's gonna cost me immediately is, you know, that all the back and forth, like you said, that you had to go through before between design to dealers to lead time, all of that. It just co Save so much time in the end. The other interesting thing that I love about this conversation is whenever anyone co Talks to me about moving to tech. They say, oh, I wanna be a UX designer. So you guys are squarely in the tech.

B You're working for a startup, a tech startup as designer, but your titles, you know, Alma, you're head of creative. Liz, you're head of brand. So you are doing I I imagine some of it might be UX, but you but you are doing a lot more beyond that. So can you tell us a little bit about your role and how that's evolved and the skills that you brought to each of those roles given your your background?

C So as as head of brand running kind of brand design development and, like, go to market strategies, really at the co At the root of it, I I'm in charge of growing our user database. So really tapping into the community of interior designers, understanding co What their craft is, what their frustrations are with their current workflows, and connecting them to our product team as they're developing this new software, and then also making sure that we have a lot of users and and as growing that side of of the business. I think it's interesting with interior design because co times like you study interior design, interior architecture, and you think like, okay. I'm gonna be a junior designer and then intermediate and then senior, and then I wanna be the director. And then the next co is like, do I hop around the firms, or do I start my own? And I think what was really interesting for me is that I've always been on, like, the design strategy co of things, and so being able to actually relate that strategy work because because design is really just about solving problems, and so it does relate A lot. And so taking that and being able to go into understanding go to market and pipelines and what stories and content co resonate with our users and and getting really into, like, the data in the weeds, not just the creative, has been really fulfilling for me. Co And and I completely relate it a 100% back to my design skill set and my toolkit that I've learned over the past years of what's made me successful, Which I know is not necessarily a traditional route.

D Yeah. And then for me, just to kinda, you know, summarize, like, My the background. Right? My background. It's it's always been interior design, but also furniture. I think this is part where I've always just been immersed in the furniture part. And and I've done custom designs, and I've done product development for brands and, you know, co Furniture, rugs, etcetera. And I think for me to, you know, now kind of transition in this role at Canelo as head of creative to actually curate, You know, the brands that are coming on the platform, but also, you know, knowing that, you know, building the community and being the bridge is is, you know, really important, and I think this is where you know, why Liz and I, you know, will always kinda work together because, you know, Liz is working to build the, co Designer community, and I'm working to build the the supplier one and how we're we're just continuing to be the bridge, which is what we were doing at additions, right, where We were just teaming up with people and, like, collaborating, and I think that's really what we're doing. We're just we're Kanoa is just getting out of the way and co being just the platform for everyone to connect.

D So, you know, again, it's just a big part of what I'm doing right now is just finding all these co Brands, you know, large brands, but also smaller brands. And I think the other part too is design designers are also creating product. And, You know, why can't their designs be also showcased, and, you know, why can't we connect them with the manufacturer? Because and that's what we're doing at dishes. We had been working with We did an exhibition for New Zealand where we brought 6 brands over from New Zealand to to really break the market in in America in general. But, you know, for them to really come to us and trust us co get their product. You know, again, what Liz is doing now, go to market strategy and designing for them and showcasing them in the right light and getting them the right people. Like, That is literally what we're doing. We're we're just we're just doing it manually.

D Now we have the tech, so I think it is such a beautiful, you know, place to be in an in an amazing opportunity to co have the tech that is moving at such a rapid pace. But, yeah, I mean, aside from just continuing the supplier brands and co Making a platform for them and having them be seen and listening to them constantly. You know, I'm also, like, myself and Pearl Lopez are are Really, the power uses for Crono right now, we're at this, like, break it. Like, I am focused on breaking that platform, like, whatever I get, and I've yet to You know, I've broken a few times, but it it is like we're the ones who are, like, in it to make sure that we're constantly updating and doing features and and co Really just again, we're we're kind of playing these different roles of, like, bridging everything until the tech gets there and starts to fill in these gaps. But, Yeah. We're we're the bridge, I guess, to say. Continuing.

A I wanted to ask about your user reach right now. How wide is that? And where are you seeing people adopting this? And maybe you can also tell us about this curated collection that was recently announced. That's very cool.

C Yeah. So so our user our user reach, as we were saying before, is we have co Interior designers. We have a ton of furniture brands. We have furniture dealerships, and we also have a lot of in house co Designers, even workplace managers that use Kanoa. And so from, like, a target audience, it's pretty diverse. Obviously, right now, very, like, interior design industry heavy, and it's it's it's national. It's throughout the United States. So currently, we're not in the metric system.

C That is part of the road map, and so our hope is one day to then go international. But for right now, we're we're in the United States.

A I wanted to know, you know, since we talked to Fed, and that's been a while ago, how your user base has grown. Like, what's the reach that you all have right now in terms of impact. Like, who are you serving, and and what does that number look like?

C Yeah. So, currently, we just passed 1200 users, Which is we're really excited about, and that really the reach there is between interior designers, furniture dealers, you know, furniture brands, in house co Designers at companies that that are using Kanoa currently. And within that, we're actually we're we're seeing around, like, 3 to 400 monthly active users in the platform, which is also really exciting.

A What is it like working on something that you're you're kinda building it while you're growing it and all of that is happening at the same time. So what is that experience like for you all?

C I'd say it's really exciting. It's really exciting because at least in my career, I've always I've always come into pretty established companies outside of addition. So I was always the optimizer, and now I'm we're the builder. Co And so to really build something from the ground up and then grow it at the same time is it's just a really exhilarating experience. It's exhausting, But it's also really, really rewarding at the same time. And I think, like, the best example of that is really bringing in, like, early adopters and early, You know, users, designers in and just being like, here's a beta. Go go play with it. And then within, like, you know, 2 minutes, they're already writing us going, Oh my god.

C This is amazing. I know it's the beta, but if x, y, and z gets fixed, this is gonna be such a powerful tool. I can't wait. And then we write them back, and, like, the engineer just fixed it. And they're like, what? Co This is amazing. And so it's just a really exciting time to be kind of at the forefront of developing this new this new platform, and and it's not a silo doing it. It's really with the community and with the with the designers doing it. Yes.

C That means it's a lot of work, but it's high it's, like, highly rewarding.

D Yeah. And I'd I'd also like to think just thinking about, like, additions. Like, additions really set us up co for preparing ourselves for being at Kanoa in a sense of you have to be agile. You also have to do business development. To get comfortable, like, calling somebody up, like, oh my god. Before I had additions, I would be like, oh, like, no. And then now I was like, Oh, it's like survival. Like, we got a call right now.

D You know? So it's like there is this, like, switch that happens, and I think being comfortable with the uncomfortable. Right? And, again, I'm I'm mostly talking about the emotions of being at at a at a start up because this is really what makes or breaks, You know, companies too. Right? Like, how how does the team work when they're under pressure, and how how do you continue to move and continue to see the North Star? And I think this is why, like, again, the alignment with their you know, when we were additions in in Kanoa, why it felt so right was because we were all We all feel the same, and we're all very passionate about what we do. And I think this persistence will, like is is what's really been key for us to keep moving. Co But, yeah, I mean, it's a startup world. Like, you're constantly like, you're changing things. You're cutting off, you know, parts of the of the tech that we you probably spent 6 months doing, and now we gotta switch. And, like, what does that mean for us and, like, to be, like, the problem solvers? And I think that's the part is I personally, you know, list 2, like, love to problem solve, and I love to build.

D And this entire team loves to do all of that and such a good group of experienced people. Co I think that's this is why we've been so successful and and why we'll be able to continue to be successful.

C The thing that, like, I've learned a lot of not just Personally, like, we were talking about, like, our career paths in being in a tech company, but what's really fascinating to see is that everyone at our company co Came from design in some form or fashion. So even, like, our lead engineer right now working on this Canvas tool that we're about to launch came from architecture co And Justin fell in love with with engineering and and development. And lead product manager also came from architecture, and now she's in product management. Co A lot of the the visual marketing that you see was a pretty much a junior designer at a large scale firm pumping out CD sets and now is doing amazing branding packages. Coaches. And so it's, I think, really, like, powerful and even, like, emotional, almost just to see a bunch of these people that started in the traditional route and have just found themselves in a different way. But, again, like, design's problem solving. And so there's so much power to having an architecture interior design or just a design background because it relates to so many skill sets.

B How do you see this more broadly scaling if at all to the architecture industry. And then what is your hope for for the architecture and interior design industry going forward now that you have worked at a company like Kanoa.

C Yeah. So I think the initial so the initial is that it's co A technology that works for you, not against you. Right? Speaking from my own experiences, it's like you go to you have to go to school, professional school. You have to, like, co Spend lots of money to learn AutoCAD and Revit and, you know, rendering platforms, and it takes a long time. And and and those Those technologies are not come how you want to design. They're like, you have to go through a, b, c, d to do it. And, yes, there's a lot of technical skill sets that you need to learn to accomplish stuff, but when it comes to the creative side of things, all of us as designers have our own way. Whether you went and worked at a co Architectural studio, you learned a different software.

C You have a different way of starting your approach to design. And what we wanna do is let's say, we love that, co And we built such a dynamic platform that allows you to come in and start in any way that you want and invite others into your process and learn from you. Because the more diverse we are in our opinions and our approaches and how we design, the better the outcome is. And so that's the initial, like, our hope within Kanoa is a gamut of diff like, a diverse group of designers coming in and actually working together. And then as that as that scales. You know? With that, we're hoping that a lot of different voices actually bubble up instead of just the top. And so with with this, it's also how can we share the stories of designers at different levels, at different scales, at different, you know, parts in their career, but also just different aesthetics and different likes and telling those types of stories across the board Instead of just seeing kind of the usual top stories that get featured in all the publications.

D Yeah. And and to add to that, I think, again, Kanoa is a A place of discovery, of education, of building community, and promoting sustainability. Right? That's really the the key things that we're trying to promote in in bringing you know, speaking to the brands and, like, educating like, bringing that it's knowledge data, right, that we're we're giving to the designers. And, again, You know, designers are not just interiors. It's it's like graphic designers. Graphic designers are in here using it. Right? So I think that this is where We're not only touching, like, are the hardcore interior designers that are constantly, you know, understand this space, but we're also bridging other parts co of other people because we all work differently. Everyone's hacking everything.

D Right? And, you know, you ask somebody like, you ask additions of their tech stack. Like, we were We use auto maybe 5% of AutoCAD Lite. We used, like, 1% of Revit. We used, you know, Figma. We used co Miro. We were in Excel. Like, I think we had, like, 10 10 10 parts of stack, right, tech stacks. And then and and I think for co us too.

D Like, when we first started working with Pinel and on this big project and fully using the platform, it was just I'm like, oh my god. Like, co never existed. Right? And I think that that was made it made us so efficient. And I think as the tool continues to grow and we continue to build it and co and expand, you know you know, now Canvas will be expanding to the inspiration point where you can actually, again, place product and understand co Cost of things at the beginning front. Like, this is gonna be so powerful for, like, brands to be in the in the minds of designers from the beginning. Co because I don't know how many times that I would want to specify, you know, a product, and I'm like, oh, well, I have to go to the rep, and then I have to Wait a couple of days, and I think for these brands to come on here and, like, showcase that information because they already have it. They just don't know how to get to certain people. Co Right.

D And I think that this is where the power of the tech is is absolutely impressive, and we just we can't wait for for Canvas to launch And for people to actually try it out because it is going to be, you know, approachable, easy, playful, and that's really all we're trying to do. We're not trying to be pretentious. We're trying to be, like, Come on the platform. Everyone's a designer, and, like, you should have access to good design anywhere at any time.

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