Season 8, Coffee Sketch Podcast

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up adviser, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to season 8 of Practice Disrupted. Those who missed our season 7 finale may have noticed that we will be down a voice this season, and Janine is taking a break from the podcast. I say break because she's absolutely invited to rejoin us anytime her schedule allows. She's gonna be focused on growing her business, Apostrophe Consulting.

A So if you'd like to hear all of that, go ahead and tune back into our season finale episode number 140. I'll link it in the show notes. I hope that doesn't disappoint our listeners too much and I look forward to continuing to deliver the content that you've tuned in for for these past a 140 episodes. However, we're going to be staying with our usual format for the season opener. I'm bringing on 2 not just good friends, great friends, wonderful friends to talk about the state of architectural practice and our hopes for its future. This week's guests Jamie Crowley and Kirk Niswander are also longtime podcasters of The Coffee Sketch Podcast. Jamie is a naturalized Texan from Montreal, Quebec, Canada and the Texas Main Street Architecture and Design Lead for the Texas Historical Commission based out of Austin, Texas. Kurt is guided by his design philosophy of seeking equitable solutions to create spaces inseparable from the existing urban fabric.

A He owns Urban CoLab Architecture, which is based in Flint, Michigan. He is also an assistant professor of practice at Lawrence Technological University, teaching building systems integration and design studio courses. So hello you 2. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. I'm glad to have you on the show. You've had me on Coffee Sketch podcast several times, so I'm glad I could return the favor.

B Hello. Thank you. Thank you. We're excited to be here, right, Jamie?

C Absolutely. Very, very excited.

A Just so people can be able to differentiate your voices when we jump into this, You know, is there anything that you guys can tell us that might not be on your formal bio or available on LinkedIn somewhere kind of just to kick us off and get to know you a little bit better.

B Oh, well, you know, I'll start. This is Kurt. Most people don't know because my I have a twin brother, and, you know, I wouldn't put that on my LinkedIn bio, but I mean, Jamie knows this. Evelyn might know this, but yeah, he's not an architect, though. So he he he's an engineer, so he prefers things to be more square. You know. Like, he's more of a square shaped building than a Frank Gehry, but, you know, there's

A What type of engineer is he?

B He studied mechanical. He works for a company that builds giant turbine engines is what what they do. So I don't know exactly

A what contribute to the podcast.

B That's true. He created our our theme song.

A Nice.

B Intro and outro music. So there's a tie in for that. Yeah.

C And was our and was our 1st guest?

B Like, I didn't know.

A I had to go listen to it.

B Oh, yeah.

C Yeah. I needed a proof of life thing. I needed to see both of them on the same screen.

B So Right. We did invite him on for, you know, as our musical producer. I suppose that's the term that he would be. Yeah.

A Is he paternal or fraternal?

B Oh, we're identical.

A You're identical.

B So I don't wanna even wanna get into the explanation that my mother would my Guatemalan mother would describe, but, yes, we are identical twins. Yeah. Although he somehow, he got he's a half inch taller than I am. So

C I mean, Charlie and Kurt's mom is our she is our number one fan. Like, you know, when you get those badges in social media where it's, like, top fan, she's got all of them, all of them across the board.

B Yeah. Thanks, mom.

A I think somewhat I I think I knew that in the back of my mind that it wasn't a surprise, but I don't think I we've talked in any to any extent about your twin brother.

B Yeah. It's I think as we age, as we get a little older, I think, you know, you know, when all through grade school, I mean, everybody knew us as the twins. But then we went to different colleges, and now we live in different places. And so, you know, it doesn't quite it doesn't roll off the tongue as as easy it used to. So

A Jamie, how about you?

B What about Jamie? Is there

A anything that even Kurt doesn't know about you?

C Oh, gosh. He doesn't know about me. That I'm not sure. I was gonna just say that, like, my affinity for soccer is very known amongst my friends, but, but professionally, sometimes folks don't necessarily have that, but are usually pretty intrigued by it when, you know, it slips out or I mention it in some kind of context, but I do a lot here in Austin with, I mean my daughter grew up playing. I grew up playing. I was her coach for a number of years, you know, just like any, you know, the normal family kind of dynamics thing, but I've always enjoyed doing service and so found some opportunities here in Austin to really do some sort of nonprofit service and related to soccer, but more about community. It's not necessarily about the best player. It's about more about giving back to the community, so I really enjoyed that and then, of course, you know, big fan, supporter, couple teams.

C So

A Did your daughter always like soccer from the beginning?

C Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was it was it was like like she was 4 or 5 and was kicking the ball around and was, like, kept asking, like and there was a period where it was like every month, like she would say, So when do I get to play? When do I get to be on a team? You know, and so it was very exciting when she finally did.

A I wish I had a younger child to kick the ball around with, but my children are not interested at all, so. I was gonna ask for your advice, but apparently that wouldn't be helpful in in my situation.

C The passion just started early. Canadian, I come from a hockey family, so no correlation. There came a correlation much later in life.

A And you want to talk about where we all met or our first memory of one another?

C I was trying to do a little sleuthing in my own mind because I I I'm terrible with years. I start transposing, but 2014 we were all in St. Louis for Young Architects Forum, So that was the 1st time that I would have like been in the same room as the 2 of you, but I think you guys have met- had met previously to that. So, but that was, that was my sort of first meeting of of y'all. And that was a that was a, you know, great experience for me, kind of introduction to the Young Architects Forum, but and and really my 1st visit to St. Louis, which was a really interesting city.

B I think I was on the Young Architects Forum then 1 year prior to your joining, I think. So thanks, Jamie. So that makes it 2013, which is now over 10 years ago. It's like kind of, kind of crazy to think about that. Yeah.

A I was just trying to think like what capacity, I think was either PR, like, the community director or the PR director then at that time or something?

B That that sounds that sounds right.

A About right.

C Yeah. I mean, for me, it was all sort of like trying to figure out who all these people were and that there was, oh, there's, you know, I understood sort of the regions and the states and and then there was this executive group and I was like, oh, okay, great, there's even more people to to get to know. Right.

A That that was one of those committees where I actually never served as a a local representative, but I it what is surprising to me, though, as I've progressed throughout my years in service and membership and leadership within the AIA is how tight the group remains from the Young Architects Forum. I don't know what it is about the magic of that committee and the relationships that were built. My time on the Young Architects Forum and the friendships that have come out of that have been immeasurable compared to other committees. I don't know why.

C Oh, totally agree. Totally agree. I was thinking about it sort of in that context of when we all met and, and even for Kurt and I, I mean, like Kurt and I have only been doing the podcast, you know, we're only just starting our 6th year of our podcast and, you know, our friendship, you know, we were just fast friends, you know, that was, you know, and that all came from those, those early, YAF meetings and whatnot. And, and similar to you, Texas is sort of a little strange about how they organize themselves and so I just, like, I've never in the, in the AIA, I've never held a position where I had to vote for anything like local, state, national that, you know, that they, the YAF position wasn't even recognized officially by the Texas Society of Architects when I was actually representing Texas. So that was strange. So it was it was a welcome group to join, when I met you all in Saint Louis, and and all the all the folks since.

B Yeah, the the friendships and the the the bonds that that we gained or started in in the YAF carry on, I I would agree to. And I was just thinking as far as like the stages of career go from say young, you know, quote unquote, young architect, you know, the definition of that. And then when you grow out of that phase, I suppose, like, mid career things, you know, whatever the definition becomes. But then then as our friends that we were on the YF together with begun collecting fellowship of the AI, it's been exciting to see, you know, the progression and trajectory of our friendships. And I would also agree on that because I've been on some other committees and and boards here locally in the Michigan region, and, yeah, they don't have they don't have the same magic. The work gets done, but it's not quite as exciting.

A I do think maybe it is that career stage that we're all stepping into because I think being an associate member of the American Institute of Architects is really more about, like, every every time you run into somebody somebody asking you when are you gonna get licensed, where are you on your IDPs, Now AXT. How many AREs have you taken? So even when I was in leadership there it was just kind of all about path to licensure. I feel like the YAF is like a committee that is of individuals that have enough experience to say, like, here's what I don't want to repeat. Here's what I've been in my career and I I don't want to replicate it in my career going forward, but we're also stepping into leadership roles be at our at our firm or just finding our own voice professionally, where I felt like more confidence in myself about where I feel the future of the profession should head and how we can potentially shape that.

C Well, and and I think it was also just sort of, it was validating to me to be in a group like that where you're meeting people from all across the country that are are as you described in in in a similar phase of their careers and are, you know, both internalizing because we all inter we're architects. Right? We all internalize all this stuff. But also sort of, you know, externally trying to find ways to leave it better than we found it. Right. And, and a group like that, almost the charge inherently of YAF over its tenure has been to do that. They've been sort of the change agents within the institute and even that time period that the 3 of us sort of intersected with YAF, with all those people that we all, you know, got together for cocktail hour, during the pandemic. You know, that group of folks though, you know, that was a time when the Institute itself was trying to figure out, like, what are these YF people doing And, and what are these, you know,

A it was a virtual cocktail hour. I want to make sure.

C Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Right. Yeah, clarity, clarifying, yeah. It's like in the Wayback Machine. But yeah, I mean, like we were talking through a lot of those, you know, what happens with people who are moving through this this stage of their career as, you know, identifying as architects, but then also those that, you know, for a lot of our group, myself included, you know, I viewed people who were, you know, NAC members because we had a lot of meetings with the National Associates Committee.

C Titling wasn't important to me. You know, it's never been. It's an accomplishment, but I, I view it more of as a personal professional accomplishment. I mean, there's certainly some licensing, you know, things to, you know, that, that are important to that from a regulatory side of things, but as a- I'm a big tent person and when I got to that group in St. Louis and then, you know, in later meetings, New Orleans and whatnot, and then online and connecting with folks, it was clear that this is the tent that I want to be in, you know, and these people were sort of thinking about, you know, how do we make it even bigger, you know, even back then?

B Yeah, you know, the only thing I'll add is Jamie and I and even Evelyn, you know, we we've used this term big tent a lot. And I usually get this reminder, my wife's not here at the moment, you know, but not an architect, Right? So she's always like, what does that mean, big tent? You know? And now and I'm teaching too. Right? So then I gotta, like, you know, watch my jargon in front of the students, but I'm not trying to I'm not trying to call Jamie or anything. But but but definition of this big tent, right, is it sort of broadened to be more welcoming and inviting and collaborative across other, affiliated professions or, so, you know, allied, I guess. Sometimes he used the word allied. You know? And in that architecture, interiors, other disciplines, you know, kind of well, can and should probably kinda get together under this big tent. That's the idea.

A I mean, that's interesting, that question coming from a non architect, because I feel like inherently we have had to say because we've come up with this term Big 10 that means inherently our nature is to close off, right? But, maybe that just doesn't exist in other industries and professions because inherently they don't clues themselves off.

C And that's the thing is I'm not even I sort of agree with your your wife, Danielle Kurt, that I'm not sure it's maybe the best term or best description, you know, sort of sort of insider knowledge or something like that, but it's certainly one that we knew we use that shorthand and we all know what we're talking about, you know, related to the profession, and I think it's a it's a question that many have tried to figure out the best course forward on. My personal journey on it was when I was in school, I didn't know I wanted to be an architect. I found architecture school and and I liked the education model and it certainly was a great place for me.

A I'd love to hear what parts of the education model you really appreciated and then what parts, like, you got into and you, like, maybe didn't like after you joined. But yeah.

C Yeah. We we we we can we can go down that rabbit hole too. But, you know, what I would say though, is that what I was thinking of was in my senior year, our department lecture series, the, there was sort of a change of, you know, shuffling of faculty members who were responsible for it and it ended up becoming something where me and a few other students sort of stepped into a situation where we said, hey, department head, we'll take it on, you know, and we'll take on sort of curating that lecture series. And our kinda quiet discussion in leading up to that was why don't we talk to people who've been trained as an architect who aren't practicing as architects? Why don't we try and get as many of them to a department lecture series and because they're excelling in other disciplines or other professions but have been trained classically as an architect. And and so that we had a maverick architecture series. You know, my senior my senior year of of architecture school. And I think for me, it was selfish. I mean, I, I wanted to see what these other folks were doing.

C I wanted to hear their stories and why they were doing what they were doing having just almost finished this architecture education myself.

A And I I don't know if this was, like, so enlightening to me, but the fact that we even have to distinguish between big ten and inside the ten or outside the ten, that in itself is a problem to me, now that I think about it.

C Well, and and I probably didn't even start using that term myself until here recently. You know. I I just I was sort of looking at it as it's clear to me looking at the profession that there are people who are being excluded for a variety of reasons. And and at the time, you know, like I said, it was sort of selfish. It was like, I'm hearing about all these other people over here who have this architecture education and they're doing fantastic things, not as architects. Why aren't we hearing about them? And it was sort of just asking the question and in instances like that that have come up since, even in the practice, it was always I always ask the question, why?

B You know, throw in 2¢ too. In practice is one side of the coin, and then, you know, the other hat or, I guess, the other side of the coin, not other hat because that would be 2 analogies. But the other side of the coin, when I teach is I can see how the academic world I mean, given that Jamie was just talking about sort of as a student in in the academic world taking on a a sort of leadership position to just to curate the lecture series. But what I noticed is I I wouldn't say, you know, I guess to respond to Evelyn's concern over the fact, you know, this this tent and the boundaries of inside and under, I think it it it exists in many other professions too. I wouldn't say it's just ours. You know, the the academic world at least the the college that I teach in is the college of architecture and design. So we have design individuals that are architects, game designers, interior design, industrial design. We, at least, are within the same building, and the faculty and students kind of mingle and mix in a couple of different classes throughout their, you know, their career as students, and then we'd meet together as faculty often.

B So at least that's not too siloed, but then, you know, there's some interesting overlap in the college of engineering that provides, say, like, civil design, and they also have an architecture engineering program, which I still don't understand. I can't wrap my head, but there's architecture engineering in the College of Engineering, and then there's our traditional architecture education in the College of Architecture, but we don't really cross pollinate too much with the college of engineering. I feel like we should more, but, you know, I think the this sort of tendency to to use another jargony term silo, create these silos of of knowledge kind of exist. I I appreciate Jamie's sort of intention to, like, cross pollinate. Right?

C I mean, one thing and I think both of you probably can, you know, almost remember that point in time or at least like, like me with my years. I can't get, I get them years mixed up, but you go into an architecture conference and then suddenly the keynote speaker, you know, if you've got say 3 keynotes or 2 keynotes or something like that, you know, when was the first time you went and remember where all 3 were not architects? You know? And and that's it. That's a pretty new convention for, you know, con not convention. The other definition of convention. So grammar, I'm Canadian. I blame it always on the Canadian thing, but that to me was it didn't sort of click until it it finally did click was there are plenty of other influences that influence our work as designers, practicing architects, non practicing architects, all those types of things that, you know, when you're sort of an information junkie and in trying to find sort of, you know, the the new information, the new way to to do something, the, the way to innovate, The way to innovate sometimes isn't in your own sphere. It's looking outside of that. And I think when the conferences started to do that, there was a lot of pushback amongst the practice.

C And if you sort of look where that pushback is occurring, it's, it's almost where folks are afraid to innovate. They're afraid to see those changes occurring. And I think that's telling, you know, for, for me, I invited Kurt to be a speaker in Texas a couple years ago. And I, again, sort of in this sort of curation, like, hey, no one's doing that. Hey, I'll raise my hand. I'll be the curator, you know, I'll find 10 voices. And my personal charge was I want 10 people who the Texas Society of Architects aren't inviting to speak, you know, and, and those are gonna be my 10 speakers. And of course, we put them on an Imac screen, so that was a whole big thing and that was awesome.

C But it's like, who's not getting invited to the party? You know, and, and why? But then when they tell their story, and we tell a lot of stories now, people really it resonates with folks. It gives them the opportunity to engage with it in a different way. And I think that that's, you know, it's refreshing. I like it, you you know, and and that's I've always tried to to be a part of that for, you know, if if that kind of work exists, I'm happy to to do it.

A So Kurt, since you're a professor now, you know, teaching design studio and professional practice, what's the voice of the students coming out now into the profession? And how is it different from, like, when we graduated?

B Well, this morning, I had class, and it's a a lecture class on acoustics illumination systems. And I actually I was trying to tease out this answer from my students or a similar answer to to the question that you post, because we're talking about daylighting and different kinds of buildings, different architectural precedents of daylighting. And I showed them a Frank Gehry building. I went off on this tangent of, like, wasn't even really about daylight as much as it was about, like, architectural style or or, you know, Frank Gehry's sort of buildings versus other types of buildings. And a lot of the students responded with their impression of Frank Gehry stuff is it's all form no function. Now if you dig in a little bit I mean, I'm a be a little biased, but, you know, if you dig in a little bit, look at the floor plans and things like that, you know, Frank Gehry does have some sensibility toward function and organization of spaces in in in a programmatic way, the layout of the floor plan. And then it starts to get a little more wild on the exterior in in the sort of the shape of the building. So I was trying to explain that.

B But it seems like they at least from this morning and and some of the other classes in studio when I do interact with them is they they seem to be more interested in a balance between form and function or or sort of a relevancy to form making through the functions of the spaces. Right? So not just form for the sake of form, but, you know, it doesn't have some sort of relationship to the the the in interior workings of the building. So I thought that was interesting. Although that took me about 20 minutes of, like, kinda like

C No.

A But I I wanna press on that a little bit more though and say, like, okay, form and function, I feel like that's something that architects can talk anyone's era about. I guess my question is, they're coming from this very, this more interdisciplinary college, right, part of like working, working in the same maybe not having the same classes, but at least in the same building as all these other disciplines. So does that idea of the tent apply to them? And then, because they are thinking bigger, does coming out of school and going into practice, does that help with their excitement or even lack of excitement to join practice in its traditional state.

C Kurt, I was surprised you didn't mention your sketch exercise that you introduced in a systems class. Because because it sort of talks to Evelyn's question a little bit, you know, about letting some of them express themselves in in a setting they weren't expecting to. Oh. In a different kind of way.

A Please tell us more.

B So I I meet Mondays Wednesdays, and on Wednesdays, I decided to start the class with a bit of a prompt, you know, and I'm trying to relate the prompts to the topic of the class, so acoustics, electrical, or illumination. So right now, we're in daylighting. So, you know, the Wednesday prompts are a little more daylight oriented. And my initial idea for this sketch exercise, it's ungraded part of the class. But since we're face to face, like on ground in in the space, I wanted to try and find a way to get them active in the classroom without too high of a bar, but also utilize and the other part of this exercise is that if they go out into practice, you know, they may not always have their computer in front of them to draw something to show to a client. You know, a lot of the work is all in the computer, produce renderings and drawings and things like that. But in communicating, you know, in our practice of architecture, the way we communicate is often with a sketch. Right? We'll talk, sit down with a contractor or a client and quickly sketch out a solution to an issue or the beginnings of the floor plan, things like that.

B That's my thought that, like, it it it has relevance to this lecture class. It's not a studio class. And then also another and maybe shake it up a little bit and and challenge them to, like, not just show up, sit down, and, like, check their email or, you know, sort of zone out. Right? I I found over the years that I've been teaching, which is different than when we were in school, is that, you know, they're bombarded with you know, our school gives them all laptops, so they all have a computer. They all also have their phones and Ipads or what whatever. Right? So there's multiple instruments that they're kind of taxing their, you know, attention or this kinda taking taking attention. And so I wanted to kinda use utilize the the simple form of the sketch to kinda generate some sort of, I guess, switch some of the pathways in the brain to, like, kinda use their hand and use their brain and and kinda think through things. So so far, the reaction has been positive in that they like you know, it's getting them going even though it's not that early in the morning.

B It's a 9:30 in the morning class, but, you know, could be very early for them in a lot of days. The other part is that it's a bit of an experiment because I haven't really seen them do a lot of sketches over the years because the computers, And it's nice to see that a great many of them have very good sketching drawing skills. Right? So the talent is there, and they're able to, you know, generate things that, you know, either have line weight levels of hatch or poacher or, you know, rendering technique to it and also scale. Right? The kinda sensibility to sketching and scale, which is a very good skill. Anyway, I don't wanna discount it like they I didn't think they could do it, but I'm pleasantly surprised that, you know, that that talent isn't sort of, you know, going away as as some might think and not, you know, not to name names or anything like that, but, you know

A I don't possess that. And I've told Jamie this, right, many a time on his Instagram account, especially when he sketches things, like, you know, Rodon and stuff like that, where I wish I had that talent. But I just never I can make my notes very neat. And I've been told, like, since 4th grade that I have amazing cursive and penmanship, but that doesn't translate to good architectural sketching. And I've always been jealous of those who, who have that ability and talent.

C I envy somebody who has very good penmanship though, because mine is sometimes it's just, it's really bad.

B You should see my whiteboard today.

C People people who work with me, they're like, Can you tell me what this says again? Yeah. But I think what it is though that Kurt sort of was describing to me was also this idea of and it we don't like to be sort of like generational, like let's talk about the next generation, but, you know, there's a- there's, you know, inevitability of that to some degree. And I think that there's some extent from an observation point of view is that people who are in school and kind of, you know, and recently out of school, there's a tendency to to try and arrive at the solution quickly and not necessarily iterate or if they are iterating, not sharing what those iterations are. And so in that iterative phase, that's where all the collaboration really, you know, that's your spot to say I'm vulnerable in my design. Can you look at this and give me some ideas? Or here's some ideas, you know, can you take it and run with it? You know, there's there's that dialogue phase and, you know, to me, that's, that's where I excel, but it's also where I also feel most comfortable. So whether in practice or in teaching or or whatever, and so when Kirk described what he was doing, I was like I was like, well, how are they reacting to it? It sounded exciting.

B And it was not it's not because I have a podcast about scheduling, or we have a podcast.

A You know, we talk about just getting out of different like working in different modalities, right, just to even explore different areas, like trigger or activate different portions of the brain, which is interesting because I've literally brought it upon myself saying, like, I'm going to I I'm a very analog note taker, And I keep telling myself like, these notes become reference points in the future. But I have like 10 years of notebooks that I've never opened, I never flipped back to the previous page after I finished writing what I wrote. So I had in my head like, Oh, I'm going to digitize everything and I'm going to find a way to digitize everything. But maybe feel like I should rethink that a little bit now as we're having this conversation.

C I was gonna ask you, Evelyn, though, is like there was somebody and I don't know where I saw this, but somebody said it, you know, friends of ours who have a podcast, and Cormac was describing the death of an architecture magazine. And, but, but he was describing it in terms of a process. He's like, there's a generation of people who can remember in their brain, Oh, yeah. I've seen that project before. It was in a magazine, you know, around this time period. Let me go back and find it to go look at, you know, something. And when you said going back to the old sketchbooks and kind of, you know, or your old journals to kind of find some, you know, nugget of information that you, you know you wrote down. I think there's something to be said for how that is something that has changed because of technology and because of education, and I think that that flipping back and forth for reference points, I think it still exists, but it's changed in a way that I don't know if it's better, I'm just, you know, talk about AI and and how it's sampling information, you know, it's, you know, the same.

C And I think they were making, you know, kind of that that connection. It's not the same for someone who's trying to iterate a process, though, and engage other people beyond themselves. Like, if you're if you're working on a team and you're relying on this artificial means to iterate your process, that doesn't elicit dialogue between your counterparts. So I I think there's something in there that I don't have an answer to, but it's very intriguing to me because I can see it, how it's playing out both in an education model, but also in a practice one, too.

A So I want to focus a little bit more on what it is you actually do in your day to day, Jamie, because you have this really great title, right? Texas Main Street architecture and design lead. You're very forward thinking, like forward thinking person, but then it's for the Texas Historical Commission. So, like, where do you find yourself in the duality of working for a quote unquote historic I I just think a natural thing comes to mind when you say anything about, like, a historical commission or, you know, a building that has been historically landmarked, for instance, that brings together a connotation that doesn't necessarily come hand in hand with somebody who's really forward thinking and and big tent ideas person.

C It's very true. And I think that that's I was recently describing that a little bit. We just did a design workshop. We were in Cuero, Texas, so find that 1 on a map. And we had 10 cities represented, 10 different Texas cities and their main street leaders, their Economic Development Corporation members, their historic preservation officers, a variety of different folks, you know, in the room. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's, you know, it's still building trust with folks, you know, that you're you're trying to either educate, work with, collaborate with, design for. And so in that trust is sort of telling stories, and and the one I tell is sort of to your answer to your question is how does someone like myself who's Canadian immigrated to this country when he was little, found architecture first in his family to go to college and, you know, is is more of an artist than an architect at times, find himself working for a historical commission. What what I was just fortunate in school that as I got in more and more invested and interested in architecture, it was sort of a search to learn as much as I could.

C And, like, the architecture history, the precedent, you know, how other architects worked, you know, what their work was was really fascinating to me because it was like, how do you unlock this creative process? So there was sort of deep dives that direction for myself. And in doing that, as I moved further and further in the curriculum, I I realized that I was closer and closer to and I was really focused on sort of it ended up for those who, you know, kind of understand architectures, I was more of like a architecture history and theory kind of bent, you know, and and I thought at some point that that's where I might, you know, be a practicing architect and designer, but I might do this sort of research and all this other stuff. And in the course of that, the short the short answer is I realized I was really close to this preservation certificate that Texas a and m had. And in in that, I was like 1 or 2 courses short of that extra certificate for my master's degree. So, so I have the credentials. I participated in historic American building survey. I have drawings in the Library of Congress, you know, as a result of that.

C But at the same time, my personal focus was always being a generalist. I didn't want to specialize in just healthcare or skyscrapers or urban planning or historic preservation, and and some of it was sort of naivete. You know, I didn't I didn't know that if you did that, then you could really fast track, in some cases, your career because, you know, some decisions had been made for you kind of in in doing that. But I I was happy to be the generalist because I knew there was so much I didn't know. Didn't really understand how buildings went together, you know, hadn't spent time on construction sites, didn't have family members who, you know, had done those things. You know, even though later in life, I realized a lot of my family, that's what they were doing, why we didn't go to college. But now in my job, I'm I'm able to do my job really well, I think because I have that generalist approach. I can be that creative architect who's worked with budgets and pushy developers and city governments and then, you know, private individuals on their residences, and so, you know, a variety of different project types, but because I have the preservation education, I also can talk about the regulatory side of things because I know what that information really entails.

C And so, for me in this role, what we do is we the best answer is we're trying to set up projects for success in these historic downtowns. And so we're trying to set up projects so and meet clients, meet building officials, meet city managers where they are in their journey of information, and then connect them up to kind of the pathway for success. And if that involves a contractor or an architect further down the road, they're going to pick it up and move forward and not do it in a way where they're like, oh, preservation. I don't know that or I don't like that or, you know, whatever. They'll they feel a little bit empowered to it. So, it's it's pretty exciting and I didn't explain it as much as maybe I am still maybe not being as clear as I can be, but

A It's interesting now that you've said that, so I've come full circle, right, you being this very forward thinking person, the background and preservation, working for, branch of the historical commission, but also the fact that you're helping create something new in what is in historical sites, which is something that we, as our cities continue to evolve, not just in Texas, that everybody is going to have to look to do, right, as as our building stock gets older. But we all know the most sustainable option, right, is to to not tear down and start start anew and and to build within that historical context. So I learned a lot.

C I mean, and I think that that's the thing, right, is that if that's sort of the reality we're all of us are just living in, regardless of being an architect or not is we've got an existing building stock whether you're talking about historic preservation quote unquote, you know, to me it's finding new uses for old containers and if there is some landmark or Story that's really really tied to that site that hasn't been told or needs to be told, you know, that's paramount and then in some cases, it's just from a climate action point of view and and a resilience point of view is like don't spend the money, you know, literally, and the time and the energy and the materials on demoing it when it's perfectly fine. It's just maybe a harder design problem. Kurt and I've talked about this from an education standpoint, you know, having taught myself as well is that you know How many studio projects in a typical architecture curriculum actually start out with an existing building as the prompt. Most schools don't have that, you know, and that's that I think that's a reality that a lot of students, you know, moving into practice will have to face and I think it's important for them to be challenged by it to a certain degree and if it means education needs to kind of up its game on what that means and, you know, teaching in a different kind of way, it's I think it's really important.

A So given your different perspectives, and Kurt, we haven't even really talked about your own practice, because you do your own projects. We had Jennifer Kreshmer on the show a while ago, and I know you actually partner with her as well. Did you wanna talk about a little bit at all about that model and how it becomes a more sustainable model for you?

B Sure. So I started the company as a right out of the pandemic, really. Yeah. So I've worked for other firms for almost 20 years to that point in, you know, different parts of the country and most recently here in Flint, Michigan. And how do I train politically correctly? My my wife overheard a Zoom a Zoom office meeting and said, oh, I didn't know you, you, you, it was that bad. So, you know, maybe, maybe we should go take you out on your own, But, you you know, some of the office politics, not that only occurred with me. I'm sure there's there's a lot of that kind of dynamic around. And then the pandemics the stress of the pandemic has probably challenged challenged a lot of people at that time.

B But anyway, so I I took that year, that 2020, to kind of get some of the ducks in a row. And as a, you know, part of our professional colleagues, you know, our friendships here, we are friends with, Mark LePage at Entre Architect. And so I reached out to Mark if he knew of anybody that needed some help on work as I was trying to get my own company started. And that's how I got in touch with Jennifer. And so she was, you know, being part of the Entree Architect network, you know, she was very open. You know, she runs basically a 100% virtual practice for the past 10 or 12 years, you know, long before the pandemic. And so for her, there was no, like, skipping a beat, so she was kind of staying busy throughout the whole time. And and so she hires licensed architects as independent contractors so that she has, you know, that that level of expertise.

B Right? She doesn't hire people that are not yet licensed just in her own structure. But so so then I became a a contractor to her and and working on her projects, which was which is a great kickoff to, like, my own company. So I had some you know, basically treated her like a client, so then I had a client and I had projects to to work on. And and then it helped me figure out how to target clients other clients of my own to to fill my my log or backlog or whatever they whatever they call it because right now, it's still just me, so I just it's just my list of projects that I that's how I define it. I have this list. But, anyway, so that that still remains as, like, 1 component or one portion of my income, and teaching is another portion, and then my own client work is like another. And they're all not quite like 1 third, 1 third, 1 third, but they're you know, they they sort of push and pull a little bit. But having that that level of sort of diversified streams of income has made working for myself a lot less stressful because I don't have all my eggs in 1 basket as a business owner.

B And even though they're all related to architecture, you know, teaching is probably the most different as far as the professional realm goes. Right? Because, you know, I don't know if it's it's not like a recession proof thing, but, you know, when things, you know, turn down, right, people go to teach a little bit more, but I'm already you know, I've got my foot in that door, but it's not necessarily the reason that I went down that path because I I just like sharing what I know with people, and and the teaching opportunity opened up also right around the same time. So, anyway, so I have kind of these diversified sort of revenue streams, and and that sort of lowers my overall stress and and keeps things kind of so the so the income is is somewhat even throughout the year. Right? So as a small business, right, you're try and, you know, worry about, you know, peaks and valleys and all that, you know, technical stuff.

A You know, it's been great. I feel like this is a kind of a recap, a bit of a recap of what you guys talk about on the Coffee Sketch podcast. And we'll, of course include a link in our show notes, and hopefully we'll send more listeners over your way. What is top of mind for each of you in 2024, and what advice do you have for those that are now young architects? Because I don't think by definition, we're young architects anymore.

B I mean, Jamie and I do something on our on our podcast, like, kind of around the new year, where we kind of pick a word that sort of sets the tone. And I'm not gonna use the same word, but I, you know, I can encourage

C You can't change your word. You can't change the word.

B The rules are the rules. So

C The rules are the rules.

B Lately, though, I have I mean, for for, say, young young architects or not yet licensed, you know, future architects, I I know it's it's not the first time this has been said, but, you know, I try I try and use the the it's a marathon, not a sprint mindset or or try and describe that to, you know, not that that you have to stick around, you know, for a 100 years to to, like, get something out of the profession, but, you know, there things move at different paces at different times. You know, school is a very different pace, you know, the the structure through semesters and, you know, starting and finishing projects and things like that. And so I train, which I guess does tie into the word that I chose, which was patience for the year. It's something, I guess, you know, that I'm still trying to tell myself, right, is that, you know, allow things to kind of take take the time to to develop and not try and rush things when they don't need to be. In that in that, I suppose, is the advice is that you'll find a way to enjoy the process, you know, by by taking the time to allow it to to evolve or develop in in its own speed, I suppose. So

C And and I think I was gonna say for, you know, just sort of echo, you know, Kurt is Kurt is not his own hype man. So Kurt needs a hype man. Sometimes I'm that on the podcast because he's doing some excellent work with his firm and one of his focuses is affordable housing. You know, he's figured out that, you know, even as a generalist, he's sort of found himself with a bit

B of a

C niche where he's both good at it, but he also enjoys it. And, you know, and I think that that's part of it too is, you know, kind of to to piggyback off of what Kurt's describing is that it's it is being patient, but it's also being able to celebrate your differences and celebrate those victories. Your path is gonna be your path, period. End of story. Myself, I keep reminding myself of that. That's that's that's like my mantra to myself is don't compare yourself to anybody else. Because it's like you have your own personal goals, you have your own aspirations. Some of them don't take, you know, some of them get sidetracked or they take longer than they want to, but as I said earlier, it's like I was I was that student in architecture school who got fascinated trying to figure out who all these people were and but not because of who they were, but because of why they were doing what they were doing.

C I was fascinated with the question why. Like, how do you come up with that idea? Like, I'm seeing these slides in that architecture history lecture class and I'm like, okay, you know, remembering all the dates and the names and the periods and all that stuff. And then you kind of move along and, and then you start thinking about it. Wait a second, how did they come up with that idea? Oh, yeah. They talked about that progressing into this and so on, but there's still some innovation that occurs. And that was fascinating to me that it's occurring, you know, in these different projects that or these places, the minute you start to travel and you start to see you put yourself out of your normal comfort zone and environment, you see these places, you know, and see them for real, not just in a magazine or on, you know, an image digital image. So all that being that to say is those experiences are going to influence you and make you a better designer architect human being. And some of that takes a long time and some of that takes a short amount of time.

C And in some of those short moments, it's time to celebrate. We didn't we talked a little bit about sort of the big tent earlier, but, you know, I didn't share. I'm gonna kind of out myself on this. I was on an AIA committee, It was an ad hoc task force, and it it was called the the the titling task force. Like, it was like we were trying to figure out naming conventions for, like, do you call someone who's not licensed? I went because I wanted to hear what all these other people were gonna say, but I think it's, it's celebrating those victories for that is, you know, for me it was, you know, being becoming an architect was really important to me. And when it when I realized it was really important to me, I I was really proud of it. But that's not where the journey didn't stop there. There's lots of other victories that that I wanna have and, you know, a lot of things that didn't work out the way I wanted them to, but you keep going.

C So that's my that's my tying to my word was metal, m e t t l e. And, you know, having, you know, having the metal, you know, reminding myself to have the metal, the fortitude for myself, not for somebody else. Keep going.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h, we'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.