Season 11 Opener with the Most Podern Podcast

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. We're kicking off season 11 with three voices who are reshaping the narrative of what it means to be an architect today. Meet Alex Yun, Min, Ku Kang and Leebo Lee, three friends who co host the podcast Most Pattern and who've each forged non traditional paths since studying architecture. You'll hear from Alex, a licensed architect educator at Harvard and co founder of coe, a California based design and development firm Min Ku, a former OMA designer turned real estate developer and MIT instructor and co author of the newly released Value of Design and Lebo, a self proclaimed career job changer and data engineer at Meta who also runs his own consultancy and writes Building Probable, a newsletter exploring data and the built environment.

A In this episode we unpack how their careers challenge conventional definitions of architectural practice, the tension between title and identity, and what it means to truly add value to the built environment. Whether you're deep in the profession or wondering if it's time to make the leap, this conversation will give you a new lens on what's possible. Let's jump into it.

A Hello.

C So great to have Most Potter non Practice disrupted. Welcome to season 11.

G Season 11.

C Let's go.

A So just to get our audience and our listeners acquainted with you all, I'd love to do a round robin of the three hosts of mostpodern. So who wants to kick us off, starting with your name and telling us a little bit about what you do?

C My name is Alex Yuen. I'm an architect. I like to make things. So in one phase of my professional life that involves designing buildings, developing the buildings which I do at the office I started called CO with my partner Weijia Song. Another phase of my life also involves academia, teaching, researching, which I do at the Graduate School of Design at Harvard in the Urban Design Program. I think those two things really allow me to think about both practice and how things are thought about in the built environment. But they still feel like kind of siloed spaces where I don't get a lot of chance to really talk to other people about how their viewing the world, how they're seeing transformation occurring and so I started the podcast with my two good friends Minku and Lebo. I think to allow myself personally to be able to have that space to start to think about those things that are happening, especially at a moment when transformation is happening so drastically, especially around technology, especially around things like AI, and also at a time when people, I feel like are wondering why the world is a certain way.

C Mostly out of frustration and trying to provide answers to that.

F Hi, my name is Minku. I am one of the hosts of Most Pattern and very happy to be here. I'm an architect turned developer and I crossed paths with Alex at OMA in New York when I was a practicing architect there. I've practiced architecture in the Netherlands, Qatar, Hong Kong and New York. And after having some struggles and also getting burned out, the usual kind of treatments that architects get in their early career, I decided to switch and learn more about economics and finance so that you know, I can have more impact in what I build. So now I'm practicing in Boston. I also teach at MIT Real Estate Development Studio. I'm very happy in this position and the fact that I can also control in terms of the program and what fits and also getting exposed to the driving forces that shape the actual built environment outside of the design.

F So happy for joining this podcast. Excited to talk more about it.

G I'm Lebo. I think this is my second time on this podcast.

G So good to be back.

G I guess at this moment I would describe myself as a career job changer. In the last decade I've worked at more than 10 companies. So started as an architect, did a bunch of BIM design automation, did BIM outsourcing, tried to do my own startup before finally landing on Meta doing data engineering. One thing that I think characterizes me is I am extremely curious and I like to learn new things and I get bored very easily, which is probably what accounts for a lot of the job hopping. But started most pottering with these guys, I think as a way to explore more the conversations within the built environment. One thing I found throughout my roles is that everybody likes to talk to people that do the same things that they do, but a lot of the value and a lot of the insight actually comes from talking to people that work across or before or after you in your role. So it's in a way taking what I've experienced on my job and hopefully being able to explore that through a podcast format.

A So I have a question for you all since you kind of are like, I don't know if you could say architecture and or you fall in this new category of what architects do. When you introduce yourself to a stranger, how do you identify?

E I always go for architect because I think that's the easiest thing for people to latch onto. But I always wonder what the second question is going to be. And it's usually, what kind of buildings do you design? At that point, I have to explain to them, well, actually, we go about it slightly differently than the traditional architect that you might know about. Because, Evelyn, I think you probably know this too, that we as architects, and I think we all are architects here, even if we're not practicing and building buildings, we as architects feel that maybe don't know how other people perceive the profession or don't know how to anticipate what are going to think about us. So I usually start with architect because it's just easier to explain, and then I go into more depth.

F Actually, for me, it's the other way around. Although I have experience in practicing architecture, I technically cannot call myself an architect because I'm not licensed. So I have more than five years, like about eight years of experience in architectural design. But still I can't call myself an architect. I don't feel comfortable calling myself an architect. So now I think I more relate to the development world where, you know, there isn't any licensures. And also in development, people do their work all differently based on their strength. So I would say, you know, and it's.

F I don't. I don't know if it's. If I can say it's like an architect as developer model yet, because I don't really produce my own drawings. But I also don't leave it all to the architects. So you tell me. But I think for me, the simplest way to put it is I'm a developer who is very interested in architecture.

D I guess so. I mean, I don't know. Like, it's just a title, it's just a label, right? With architects, I'm an architect. With designers, I'm a designer. With engineers, I'm an engineer. Doesn't really matter to me. Like, you can call me whatever you want, but if I can do the job, I'll perform the role, right? Like, I feel, at least for me, at this stage of my career, constraining myself to a label feels forced and artificial.

A Well, but then what do you say when people ask you, what do you do for a living?

G I'm a tech, bro. That's what I get paid to do, right?

A I mean, I say that a little bit. It's interesting because Minku, you know, you're like, I can't call myself an architect. And I was like, well, you know, it depends on the circles you're in. You definitely will have people that will be like, no, you can't call yourself an architect. You definitely would run in circles where people don't care whether or not you call yourself an architect. I just think there's this perception around one. We've worked so hard for this title, and I think a lot of people, Lebo, not you apparently, would want to lead with that title because we worked so hard to earn it. And then I think the other thing that I always struggle with is similar to Alex, is like, oh, you know, when they asked me what building I build, and it's like, well, how do I.

A Like, this is just like a circular. This becomes a very circular conversation. So how do I get to something quicker, sooner? So I actually say that I'm a business consultant that helps architects and that just happens to be an architect is what I usually land on.

E Can I share an example? An anecdote of where talking about an architect put me in a very specific situation I think influenced how people perceive me. I was in jury duty in New York, and they go around the room and they ask, what do you do? And introduce yourself? And I said, I'm an architect. And I'm Pretty sure I'm 95% sure that people perce me as being very analytical, someone who can think rationally, someone who can think logically. And the funny thing is, I don't think I can talk about the case that much. But in the deliberations, I actually did draw like a diagram of where the scene happened. And I tried to demonstrate that either this was physically possible or not possible. So I do think, like, just Looking back those 10 years ago, I do think that architects, regardless of if you are a licensed architect or if you continue to make buildings, there's something like you're talking about, Evelyn, in the training that allows you to think definitely spatially, but also systematically, logically, rationally, in a way that I think is productive regardless of if you're looking at a building, if you're looking at organization, if you're looking at a piece of software.

F But I think the fact that it's confusing even whether or not you're doing architecture or not, it's confusing even for an architect to think about whether should I call myself an architect or not? Isn't that an issue for the profession? Like Tech Bros. They call them Tech Bros. Finance Bros. They call them Finance Bros.

D But look like there's so much more for us to worry about than like to lay awake at night like, oh, what do I call myself? Who am I? What is my identity?

B Right?

D Like, I don't know, it's kind of like a meaningless question. Like, unless you're doing marketing, you're like, hey, I need to market myself as a particular niche.

A I invite Lebo onto my podcast and he tells me I'm asking like meaningless questions. Just kidding.

E No, but I do think that I agree with you, Minku. I mean, Libo, you're a specific person and I agree. I mean, the three of us, I don't think we care if we're architects or if we're not. Like, that's. We don't need that title necessarily. But I do think that it is indicative of where the profession lies. Like, the medical profession is not like, what is a doctor? I mean, lawyers. Same thing is pretty clear.

E And you go through a very similar set of training and exams that distinguish what you are. And I think it's not so much the title itself, it's really the situation that we find ourselves in, which is like, what type of value does the architect provide and if the position demonstrates that value or not.

C I also think maybe people in tech and I don't know, I think libo, you just are Lebo. So maybe this doesn't necessarily apply to you directly, but you know, I dropped the term when I was at Slack because there are so many non building architects working at Salesforce when I was at. I mean, they have a whole. They. They have whole projects and programs talking about technical infrastructure and the architects of that, that I'm just. If I say I'm an architect in a tech role, they start having conversations about things that one I'm not directly related to at all. So in that environment, I ultimately dropped. I ultimately dropped it.

D But I think that's an interesting point, right? Like in, in tech, when you're a systems architect, when you're like a data architect, you are building structures and systems with just different parts. So you are performing architecture.

B Right?

D It's not like you can't call yourself an architect. You just aren't familiar with the things that they're building with.

C Yes, I'm an architect, but not the type of architect that you're thinking about. And it was never in my title anyway. So in the tech world, I just don't even refer to myself as architect.

F Frankly, our discussion so far clarifies that it's very difficult to put an architect in a box.

E That'S very Easy for an architect to draw a box, though.

D Well, I think it's by the nature of this podcast and the four of us, right? Like, if this was a different podcast, architects talking to architects, I think we wouldn't be even be asking this question.

C No.

E And I think there's just like, let's put it out there. There is a lot of insecurity about this in the profession. I think we all feel it to certain extents, but it's definitely felt in. I mean, you look at certain ways that people describe themselves or the way they act or. You know, I think there is a lot of, like, specific to the tech example, there are a lot of building architects who are quite annoyed that these titles have been appropriated by other sectors.

C We forget that engineering was equally appropriated, but for some reason they don't talk about it as much as we talk about it.

E And there's also, like, sound engineers and other sorts of engineers, too. So.

F Yeah, well, Rem Koolhas is not an licensed architect, so are you going to call him still an architect or not? I guess it's part of the question.

E I think it opens up A question is like, are we comfortable to talk about what we do? Are we defined by what we do, or are we defined by our title? And I think that at the end of the day, it's probably more important what the outcome is, what we actually produce and what we make. Yeah, there are certain parameters or certain legislation. There are certain rules that regulate who can do this or that. And those things are still important for a lot of reasons. But I think the four of us, and definitely the ethos of our podcast most potter and is to really not care about that stuff so much and just say, what are we doing this for?

C Since I have two teachers or academics, half academics on the line. Where do a lot of your students come from and what industries are they going into?

E I'll start first because I teach mostly design, urban design. All my students come from. They almost all have a previous professional degree in architecture or landscape architecture, and a lot of them are coming from abroad. So they're trying to start to use the way that they think about a building and its assembly, the different hierarchies that go into a project and try to scale that up to the level of a block, a neighborhood, even a city. And I think there's a lot of actually questioning that comes in. One of the most. I mean, it's not shocking to me anymore, but it's always a little bit surprising. Is usually around like, October or so after the Semester starts, they start to say, well, you know, that's architecture.

E And now I'm an urban designer. And I have to say, like, no, it doesn't matter. You're just a designer and you're doing things that draw at a different scale, but you still use the architecture knowledge. Like you still have to put the buildings in the block, in the block, in the city, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that goes back to our previous. Maybe it's just a human impulse, especially when you're younger, to try to define yourself so clearly when honestly, it's just what you do. And the students, they then go on to. Some go back to architecture, so to speak, where they're designing buildings and the windows and the doors and everything that goes into them.

E And some start to do things more strategically where they're more like on a consulting role or they're working at a more planning scale. Some of them even go into real estate development, which I think is what Minku is going to talk about in a second.

F Yeah, real estate development is more of a diverse type of industry where if you have money and land, anyone can be a developer. Actually, in one of our episodes, we talk about who gets to be a developer. If you have the money and land, really, you can just build. But I think that's why it's a fascinating field to me, because you can still maintain a generalist approach to things. So if you go into architecture workforce, maybe in the larger companies, you get trained and experienced to become a specialist in certain project types. But in real estate development, even in the academic setting, you see many students coming from all different backgrounds, but are somewhat related to buildings. So for instance, people come from city planning, from finance, from law, from development, from architecture, urban planning, urban design. Like all of these different students with different backgrounds come together, they merge, and we all kind of discuss what to put in put on this land.

F And I think it's been a very interesting mix of perspectives that actually broadened my view. And also I think if there's a designer out there who wants to be, who wants to know how buildings get put together, you know, outside of the design realm, it is a very useful experience to have.

C Is there any hierarchy in the development world? And if there is, where do architects fall in that? And maybe this is a wrong projection that I'm making, but I feel like architects are kind of looked at at least the next run down, right? We're not the ones with the money coming in, so.

F Because architects are not the ones with the money, architects don't know where the money comes from, they know how to spend it and how to design things expensively, I guess, or cheaply. But I think it's very important to understand the flow of money from start of the project to the end, because that gives you an understanding of who gets to get a say on what. So think about a building. Like what do you need to do first? You need to identify the land and then buy the land and then design it or even before designing it, understand what you're going to put on it and then raise money. You start the community engagement, you get a buy in from the city. You also do a check in terms of what you got approved, whether it's still viable in the market, does the size work, and then you start the construction and then it goes to the market. And all in this, different phases. Like I said before, development, it's like a wild, wild west.

F Now, depending on your skill set, you can do development in all different perspectives and all different avenues. What I came to believe that is effective, not just for me personally, but also for development in general, is to have architecture engaging as many times as you need, because I understand architecture as an art of communication. So you need communication and visual communication throughout all the phases, not just when you're designing the building, what the facade looks like. You need to communicate what the idea is of the project to the community members, to your banks, to your lenders, to your investors. So I would say, you know, that's why being an architect and especially having this generalist view really helps you to be a good developer as well.

C Lebo, I feel like you, out of all of us, not just the three, not just your two co hosts, have stepped furthest away from what we would consider traditional practice. Do you miss any aspects of architecture?

D Oh yeah, like the hierarchy. Getting asked to print PDFs from Revit. God, I missed that. You know, just those days where I'm just sitting in the office, 9pm printing PDFs.

C The time, the timesheets.

D The timesheets. Oh man, I have not filled out a timesheet in years. God, I missed that stuff. No, I don't.

D Right.

D Part of what I love about kind of working at different places is getting to learn from people that know things that I have absolutely no idea about. Like earlier today I was in a, like a machine learning training session. No idea what's going on, right? Two hours, just sat there, wrote down all the vocabulary, like checked on LLMs next to me, like, what do these words mean?

D Right.

D But this is what I've Experienced as the fastest way to learn something is just being immersed in an environment where you're just forced to do the thing and you're just forced to catch up. And I think coming from an industry that's very slow moving, that's very risk adverse, this is something that I find really compelling is the learning environment that I'm in.

C Have any of you ever regretted the education path that you took to get where you are? And would you have done it differently?

E No, I think regardless of where you end up, I think there's a huge amount of discovery that happens in architecture school. One advantage that a lot of we all had as we studied design as undergrads too. So that's at a moment where also transforming as an adult becoming, moving from adolescence into adulthood. And I think for instance, just the fact that we don't really take tests, I think for me was really amazing. I was willing to put in the hours to do something that was public, that was something that I had to show off and was something that I had to put in my portfolio and would lead directly into further conversations about the future of my career. I think that that's something that I always try to impress upon students is like this is a very unique experience actually to be able to learn by doing. Not a lot of people get that. And I think especially nowadays as Lebo talks about just the opportunity to be able to get better at something by practicing at it.

E And I think we're going to talk about practice in general, but to me that's sort of the definition is like you put your mind to something and you try to improve at it, regardless of if it's making a building or making a piece of software. I think that that opportunity at an early age is really great and really nice. So I never regret it at all.

F Yeah, I share the same feeling with Alex in terms of the education and the fact that it exposes you to sea of knowledge that you know, because architecture, they reference everything from outside of architecture to propose new ideas. So that was really good for me. One thing that I actually regret not taking is the understanding of how the society works in terms of economics, finance. And to a point that when I was practicing architecture, people talk about interest rates like remember 2008, 2018, there were crashes in the economy. I didn't understand how would that impact my work. But once you become a developer, just like a 25 basis points rate increase in interest rate that can really fuck up your building. So you now see where these small changes that is outside of your control impacts your building. And I think that is something fascinating.

F And I would have loved it if I could have the opportunity to learn about that in school.

E Yeah, I think to build on that. We spend so much time, and anybody who's gone through architecture training knows it's really intense. Because to learn how to make something and to do it right takes a lot of time and effort. You have to do it over and over and over again. But to Minku's point, I remember when I was in architecture school and maybe I was in the airport or something, and I would see Bloomberg or CNBC on. On the screen, be all these numbers, and I'd be like, who cares? What is that? That does. That's not art. That's not creative.

E And then you get into practice and you start to, you know, to your previous question, Evelyn, like, what is the hierarchy of decision making when it comes to these projects? I found that a lot of my colleagues and even my bosses had no clue the architects. But there was something that was controlling the design. It was controlling not only, like, the output, but my lifestyle if I had to stay up late to reproduce something because the client rejected it. So I do think that going back, I don't know if it's possible at that young age, but to connect what I'm doing with what it's implied and related to would have been really beneficial.

D So I think two things that I guess come from two members of my family, I think resonate with me a lot when thinking about this problem. One is my mom always says a person can't walk two paths at the same time. So thinking about whether or not I regret going to architecture school is kind of meaningless. I'll never know what the alternative could be. I might be in the same situation now. I'm an architect coming from a different major.

B Right.

D Could happen, I think. The other thing is something my brother said is it's a waste of money to take classes in college that you can read a book and learn. And I think that's something that's especially true for architecture, is that the studio experience, your ability to formulate your own taste and your own judgment, that's something that's very hard to read a book and get Now. I'm extremely comfortable saying, that sucks, that's ugly. I don't like that. That's beautiful. And I don't care if other people disagree with me because I trust my taste and I trust my judgment. And that's something that I feel really came from the education that we got, which is very insular.

D Very academic, very kind of design heavy. And that's something that I feel is really valuable, especially in an environment where not a lot of other people have gone through that same experience. To be able to go into a chaotic situation, go into a situation without a lot of clarity and drive the effort towards that goal. Because you are used to taking a situation and figuring out how you structure it, how you bring it into a cohesive narrative and a cohesive idea.

F Yeah, dealing with deadlines help for sure.

C Even if it meant staying up how many ever hours we stayed up.

E Well, I think the reason, like for instance, all of us are probably the same. Like we don't stay up late partially because we did it before and we're like, I don't want to do that again. But at the same time this maybe sounds a little bit, maybe too hardcore for me. But we know that we can, right? Like we know that we can push through and we can do those things if we need to. And the goal is not necessarily to replicate like when we were 21 and we didn't have very good executive function, but the goal is to know that like there's a lot of things that we can actually accomplish if we put our mind to it and if we hit those deadlines and those markers and like I think the idea of even just understanding how a building comes together, you, you know that it doesn't happen all at once. Things are built on each other, ideas are removed, replaced, brought in and there's this sort of like click. That happens when everything comes together. And that happens for me when I'm designing building.

E It happens for me when I'm writing a paper. It happens for me when I'm cooking dinner. The ability to think through the process of delivering something from finish to end, I think benefits people in all facets of life.

C One of you touched on the value architecture and the confusion with titling. I think we can all agree that architects, those primarily in practice and even people like ourselves, want to see architects be paid better for the value we all believe that they're capable of potentially delivering. Do people like us confuse what it means to be an architect in the world? And it make defining what that value is harder.

D You'll get paid more if you're more valuable.

F True.

E Well, I think one thing that probably made Kiryu you feel the same way is when you actually look at the pro forma or the budget of a project and you see all the costs and then you see the architects fee, you start to understand why this is the case. Right. Like Especially in America when construction costs are so high right now, the first thing that's going to be pushed down is the design. I'm sorry. Like, if we need to build housing, people don't really care what it looks like. I have colleagues who are talking about, they think that people go on Zillow and like try to figure out what the finishes are and if it's brick or if it's wood. And that's how they decide if they're going to buy housing. I'm sorry, that's not true.

E People design housing based on the number, the cost. That's it. Okay.

C Neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

E Location and place, things like that. But the qualitative stuff that we talk a lot about and that we're obsessed with as architects, which I think is fun, it's good to talk about that, right? Like it matters what things look like, but doesn't matter to everybody at that same extent. So I don't think we confuse what the value of architecture. I think architects just in general, like, regardless of what you're doing, if you're running a business, you have to always advocate, you always have to sell what your value is. As Lee was bringing up.

F So I wrote a book that's called Value of Design and it's hitting the stores in July 1, so it should be at the stores now, so you should go get it. But essentially, I mean, I understand that statement that the dollar and dollar value matters a lot, but I also don't want to undermine the value in good, well designed spaces because at the end of the day, your real estate value is really tied towards how well it's used. And if people love your building, you'll be valued higher. It's like a very intuitive thing to understand.

C But that, but that's also kind of a post evaluation, right? Because you're paid for the design delivery services and architects. So it's like, how can I. If you love your building, that means, you know, 12 minutes, the post occupancy says that you love your building. It means like, I get a bonus.

F Yeah, that's true. But what the book, the book's point is that even in post occupancy, there is an actual significant correlation between how the building is designed and how the building gets valued. And there should be better ways to capture that valuation. So that. Because what I see as an issue is that because the profession itself is kind of siloed and left outside of critical decision making, that's related to the building process. Architects also have, from my experience, have this tendency to Just not care at all. Just pay me the money, I'll deliver your scope, I don't care. And that's what I think shouldn't happen.

F And as a developer, I'm happy to share the profit if there is a metric in a way that I can convince my investors and the bank to follow that. And at the moment, there is just no way to capture the value add from a good design. So although there's this disconnect between what good design is and what the architecture fees are, I think there should be an effort to try to connect those two pieces and also have, and therefore have the architect to have a buy in and have some equity stake in the project so that they can care of what they deliver. Makes sense and is better and actually works.

E Have you guys heard about the water diamond value paradox?

C No.

E It's something that came onto my radar just this morning actually. And basically the idea is that there's this weird contradiction where water is essential for life, but it's not valued monetarily very high versus a diamond which has zero utility for survival or anything, has a lot of value. And I think that I don't know exactly how this equates to architecture, but I do think that there's a connection there, which is especially when you're on the real estate development side of things, you're trying to limit risk as much as possible. And risk has an inherent connection to market value, meaning if you succeed, the market value of your product or your project will also succeed. And if you fail, you'll lose a lot of money. Whereas design, I think we all recognize has social value, it has importance to society, it has importance to community. But it's very hard to quantify what that is. And I think what happens quite a lot is that architects, because we're trained maybe so intensely for three, five, six, seven intense years, we sort of think that everybody gets why architecture is important and that's okay.

E But it gets really problematic when you expect your client to always get why your decisions are important and your client doesn't understand why you're making those decisions. And they expect you say they're a real estate developer to understand why what they're saying to you is also quite critical. I think there's been moments where I've looked back on projects that I've worked on or products I'm working on currently, where I said, yeah, we definitely couldn't have done that. It's just not possible. Even though I would like to have done that, you know. So I do think that trying to maybe distill what is market value, what is financial value versus what is social value, what is cultural value, which are also critical. And trying to maybe piece those together or try to differentiate them more clearly could help the profession.

D But I think it's also like a cultural thing.

D Right.

D Like we out of school, we inherently think design is valuable. Like that's a hypothesis. And we're constantly trying to reiterate that.

B Right.

D Like the hypothesis should be design is not valuable and you should try to disprove that, which is a totally different way of looking at the problem. And I think, you know, through work, through having to do sales, through, you know, working in tech is like everything you do, you have to have roi. Like, why are you doing this? What is the impact? Like, how big is the impact? Why are you doing this thing that has less impact than this other thing? I think as architects we rarely talk about that, like, why should you hire me than this guy? How am I going to give you three times the return that this other architect is going to give you?

F Yeah, that's why we need to include economics in the education, because we're just so detached and we are talking about economics in this room here. But I'm sure in some schools out there, probably talking about money itself is like, oh, no, no, it's a hush hush kind of thing.

E I think that's a huge problem, to be honest. There's this moral hazard associated with talking about capitalism and money. As if, if you mention a dollar figure, everybody is going to go become this grubby developer, which is just wrong, to be honest. I always think about Kobe Bryant. If you read his, he has this little book that talks about the Mamba mentality. And in one of his rules he's like, I read the rule book because I knew what the referees were officiating against. And if I could do that, then I could, I could play the game and I could take advantage. And I knew that my competitors hadn't read the rulebook so I could get away with things potentially.

E I sort of think about it the same way with architects. It's not to say that you need to totally accept everything that has to do with capitalist society and has to do with business. But if you know how it works, then you can take advantage of it. And that's probably something that I would encourage more people just to be more fluent about.

C I just think they're not looking for the right rulebook. Right. They're looking for architects. Being architects are like the rulebook, like the building code. Like what Are you talking about Alex? Or architects being architects? The rule book around policy and legislation that we have to change, that we don't need that much parking. Like, I think the rule book that you're asking them to look at is so foreign, so foreign to them.

F There are so many rule books too.

E Yeah. And to be honest, a lot of it comes. I just had to speak blatantly. I think a lot of it comes from a sense of entitlement. There's a lot of architects out there who are quite successful because they got projects handed to them. Either they're in the right place at the right time. They have connections. Which isn't to say that's a bad thing.

E If I had those opportunities. Opportunities and I have been lucky in certain ways. You take advantage of them and you get judged based on your ability to execute. But I think what architects maybe should wise up to is that rule book that I'm talking about. Every other business understands it's out there. If you're a trash collection business, you're concerned with what are the systems, what are the things in place that allow you to succeed or not succeed. And you analyze that and you figure it out. And then you can be a very well paid trash collector.

E Much better paid than an architect, to be honest. So I think that it's just like that curiosity that Lebo's talking about. If your motivation is to design cool things and make fun spaces like pursue your curiosity. But if you're also wanting to get paid more, I think there's other ways to think about it.

C So this, this goes back to me and I was talking to another colleague about why architects start practices versus how an entrepreneur starts practices. Right. Like you said, like they do a market analysis. They understand their competitive position. Architects start practices like, oh, somebody moved, so we want to keep them in the firm. So we let's open an office where they moved to or for a lot of moms and a lot of caregivers. It's like the office isn't giving me the flexibility I want. So let me.

C I'm going to go open my own office. It's a very different type of mentality when it comes to even what's it like starting a business for an architect?

F Yeah. So in a sense that maybe the threshold is lower to start a business, which I think is a good thing, and gives more because it's not as structured or confined than other businesses. Maybe there's a freedom of thinking or freedom of experiment to try to try different stuff and still call yourself an architect.

E I Think that's the impulse that everyone has. I don't think it's any different from most creative industries where it's like, you apprentice, you work under somebody, they generally call the shots, you do the work. At a certain point, you feel like, I want to be able to make all the decisions. And then you don't realize that it's actually not what you're doing most of the time. I mean, I remember my former boss, Charles Renfro, at Dealership Video, he was. He would talk about, like, he only spends 10% of his time at most designing. Most of his time is spent selling. It's spent doing business development.

E It's been networking, things like that. And then all the administrative stuff that comes along with the business. And yeah, I mean, maybe it's like that's. It's that idea of like pursuing your passion and hopefully your passion can become your livelihood. But a lot of people who, I think if you just look at most successful businesses, it's the ones that people don't want to do, those have much more upside than the ones that those sort of vanity businesses where everyone wants to do them. And a lot of that is creative because a lot of the value comes out of the act of doing the act of making, which is nice. But then you also have to realize that there's a bunch of other people out there who are trying to do the exact same. And as Lebo pointed out, how do you differentiate yourself from somebody else?

D Yeah, I think this is something that I've kind of turned in my mind is like, why am I spending all my time getting underpaid to make a design that someone else wants when I could just work a job that gives me plenty of hobby time to do the design that I want?

D Right.

D Like, if I truly get joy from building from design, then why, why can't I just do it on my own time and do it my own way and spend my time daytime doing something else that's more valuable to other people.

B Right?

E Yeah.

F I have a confession to make. I mean, I'm enjoying thinking about design more now than I was at oma because I had to spend all the time that I had just producing design that I couldn't really process it internally and think about it as an individual. Whereas now I'm doing development and most of my time I spend on thinking about what, what could this property have, what could this be? Which then triggers me to look out for a lot more references that is more practical or well designed, well thought of. So, yeah, now I have more Design energy when I'm outside of architecture practice.

C Where do you all think the future of architecture and the future of architects and architecture practice is headed? Looking at people like yourselves moving, you know, workforce changes, for all intents and purposes, leaving the profession as well as the technology and flex sourcing coming in. And then I think there's the added sense of, for me, it's even the VC and now PE money starting to come into the AEC world and whether or not we're going to be running firms or we're going to be working for the non AEC individuals.

E Is VC buying architecture firms? Is that something that's happening?

F No.

C Well, it's interesting because Cove Tool just is now Cove Architecture. So it's a VC backed company firmly in the AEC space. But they are saying, and I just talked to Patrick about that, Patrick will be on later in the season about they're investing in the vertical tools that Cove is developing essentially. So they see an upside there.

D That's super interesting. Patrick's a great dude. And I think the vertical integration part is, I think really important for architects to think about because I think architects really think about themselves as this anchor role in the whole system. But when you zoom out and look at the whole system, the architect's participation is actually quite small. But I think design is one of the only things that is able to take a spreadsheet and connect it to materials on the other end, material and labor. So inevitably you're going to have to use design as a translation mechanism in whatever vertical building business you're doing. So I mean, this is like what wework did. Having been a part of that system is like design just gets consumed into a part of that system and you're just a role player, which is great, which is fine.

B Right.

D But you're going to outcompete everyone who's an individual architect because you have access to way more information above you, way more information below you. And therefore your design is much more robust because of all the knowledge you have.

F Yeah, I think it's a very exciting moment where architects are at least what I see. They're actively reconfiguring and redefining what they do. And not just the title, it's actually the work. So you see architects like here, us three, you see architects doing urban design, architects doing tech, data engineering, development, finance, private equity. I think the generalist approach of architects is very valuable and that skill set can be applied to all various fields of the industry. So I think it's a very interesting moment because Almost everyone that I talk to who are students, they acknowledge that the traditional architecture practice is just making their lives so, so much harder. And I, I sense that like they got enough because like the rents are skyrocketing, the, the home sales prices are skyrocketing. Like it's, it's getting more and more difficult to buy homes.

F So, and there is, that is maybe the apparent lower hanging fruit issue that every architects might try to tackle.

E Right?

F And there are many ways to peel this, peel this animal where you don't necessarily have to design and draw the plans to make an impact. Like you can try to tackle it from policy, tackle it from a startup perspective through technology, like build up a, maybe an interactive map that filters the zoning information for more intuitive reading. There are many ways that architects can contribute that makes a city better, enable, provide necessary housing and building stock.

E I think that there's a moment right now where it's going to be a separation for a while between the traditional practices, the established ones, and the ones that are emerging at the moment. I think Minku, when we were at OMA, which is like 10 years ago, I think we both sort of predicted the end of the starchitect. We didn't anticipate that there would necessarily be another rem, there would be another Jean Nouvelle. And I think that's more or less played out. I think that type of firm is probably equivalent to the fashion houses of today like lvmh, Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Dior, those names still exist. The people who started them are gone and they will continue to have a market hold on those things. So if you're looking for a museum, if you're looking for an airport, you know who to call a three letter name firm somewhere in New York or in Rotterdam or in Basel, something like that. But I think that there's going to be a set of emerging practices that are operating at a smaller level, which are less probably motivated by the process of making the architecture and are probably more motivated by the outcomes.

E Now that isn't to say that they don't care about the process, but I don't think they aggrandize or they're obsessed with the process in the ways that they were in the past. Part of that is because the tools are getting much faster. And I think that one thing we know about practice is that, that when people have done something for a long period of time, maybe 30, 40 years, over the course of a career, it's very hard for them to change. And so our generation, that is, we Grew up in analog. I think all of us have drawn hand drawings before with a slide ruler and everything like that. Then we learned how to draw in CAD, we learned 3D. And now AI and all those other tools are marking the scene. And I think we're quite lucky in this sort of bracket of people to be able to know how to move from one set of tools to another.

E So I think that there's going to be a bunch of architects, maybe I'm saying this because I include myself in this, who recognize a lot of the limitations of traditional practice. See how some of the things that are happening outside of architecture, some of the things that are coming out of Silicon Valley, or some of the things that Lebo's making in his job, how those sorts of things can actually make our lives better, and not just so that we can have more free time to hang out at the beach and play golf. No, so that we can actually design more. We can have a larger scope, we can do more of the things that Minku is talking about because we have have more attention to spend on those things as opposed to trying to make PDF every night. And so I think it's a translation from sort of goals for the business and then trying to, like you would in any other design project, trying to work, reverse engineer that into figuring out what tools and what processes you're going to employ to actually get there. Yeah.

F And in the age of AI, I think individuals will be more equipped to do more. Right. So if you come from an architecture base and a perspective and you want to build a really cool building, there will be tools out there that can help you to deliver much quicker and much effective results. So that's why I think it adds to this excitement that we're seeing right now.

E Yeah, like for instance, I forget who it was, but somebody, I think, think some VC type person was saying they expect within the next five years that there will be a single person, single employee, unicorn company. So a company worth $1 billion just because of the power of AI and the leverage that you get from using that.

C Sam Altman says that.

E Sam Altman said it. Okay, do you think that we could have a single person architecture firm that could produce one building?

C It depends on the scale of the building. I mean, you can have a single person architecture.

E True, true. Okay, let's talk about. What I'm talking about is like what traditionally took like 10 people. Do you think one person could do that job? I think that's an important question to ask right now.

C First of all, there isn't an architecture firm that's a unicorn. So I don't think there will ever be a single person architecture firm that is a unicorn. But I do think the latter or what you pose is possible.

E And I think that's probably, like, where a lot of people would not say, I think it makes more sense, right? Like, if you can actually achieve more value with fewer employees, with fewer overhead, then you can pay yourself more. By the way, that's just math, right? So I think that there are those people out there who think that, okay, architecture has its problems right now. The profession has its problems right now. How do we streamline it and make it more efficient? I think that could answer a lot of our problems.

D I think another thing is architects don't have leverage. I make one SQL call more efficient, and it's $100 million a year, and that's like a tiny piece of work. But by being a part of this organization, by having all the systems around me, it massively increases my ability to impact the cost and the efficiency of the business. I think architects don't think like that. Offices don't think, hey, how can I maximize every ounce of leverage I have on a person? Because I think what tech has realized is the individual person is actually the most valuable. They're the person who can produce the most outsized value. If you train them, if you grow them, if you bring them into a situation where you can maximize their value. And unfortunately, in terms of traditional practice, architecture just looks at individuals as people who can do work.

D I just need 12 people on this project.

E But I think there's also a limitation. I mean, there's just not a lot of leverage in the physical world. You can produce one line of code and you can send that out exponentially, and it'll reach the entire globe. We're talking about bespoke, more or less bespoke, bespoke projects happening in one position in the world. And you have to spend a lot of attention to make sure that works correctly there. So I think as hopeful as we can be about what practice becomes, I also think we have to accept some limitations. It will never become tech. I agree.

E Evelyn, I don't think you'll ever have a unicorn architecture firm, maybe a construction firm, but not one that designs the building necessarily.

F Yeah, but in terms of value proposition, I think there's something to say here that the. If your goal is to have your project featured in a magazine, I don't think that goal can work for your business. Because what does a magazine feature give you? Maybe potential projects, but that's not also certain. So I think the goal should be to build a successful building both regarding all measures like design, aesthetics, function, program, financial, and then that becomes a proof of concept and you do the next one and then the next one. But if the goal is to just have your design featured in the magazine, you're blended with hundreds of other designs that's featured in the same magazine or blog that looks frankly, kind of similar to one in another, because they're all trying to be a little bit unique. So I think that while that. I think I acknowledge that as one of the values, but we should also try to expand that and try to find another valuation system for architects, not just being featured on a magazine or being famous.

C My husband recently met up with a friend whose daughter is interested in pursuing architecture and going to architecture school. I'm interested in knowing what is your advice now for somebody that's interested in going into architecture, whether it's the schools they should be looking at or the curriculum they should be following, what would you say to the aspiring architects?

E I have to make sure I don't get fired saying this.

D Do it. Don't let dreams be dreams. Architecture is such a dream school career, right? There's no wealth at the end of that tunnel. It's just like you do it for the love. So I'd say do it. I would say the other thing is question everything your professors tell you, because there are some real idiots out there that get to teach architecture, including myself. Don't question them. Them, you'll just learn the wrong things.

D So that would be my advice.

E No, I agree about the questioning. Remember Troy Lebo? He would always tell us, you should question what I'm telling you. Who knows if I'm right or wrong. And I think what I would say more broadly is that the schools often try to say that, okay, architecture opens you up to a world of possibilities, because I think they acknowledge the fact that the profession has a lot of limitations. And especially in this economic environment, it's not the most lucrative career path. But I think they. They sugarcoat it a little bit. And what I would say to that is, yeah, there's a lot of opportunities, but also that means there's a lot of uncertainty.

E So what you would come out on the other side with is a series of tools and a mindset and maybe some capabilities that will allow you to do a lot of different things. But you still have to put in your own investment in terms of your thoughts, in terms of your direction, in terms of your personal situation, what kind of life you want to live. I think it's really hard when you're 18 to know like, okay, when I'm 35, am I still okay with having this income or living in this many bedrooms of an apartment in this city. You know, like you won't, you just don't know at that point. So I think you just have to be very open to change. And I think that's why what Libo is saying is like question everything constantly is really important because once you graduate, the schools don't have any responsibility over you and it is your responsibility then to question is this right? Is this working and to make your own decisions and to be accountable for your own self.

F Yeah, I think in terms of academics, I mean we talked about its shortfallings, but I still think it's like the coolest major you can do. Who gets to travel to Europe and all this amazing cities, tour buildings and be fascinated and fall in love with what other people did before you. And it's just that the society and how it functions is maybe not as favorable for architects at the moment unless you're on like the top 1%. But you know, it's questionable. But I think studying itself, it gives you and opens you up, opens your perspective, opens your knowledge and you know, from that you can try to more specify your, your career path after that.

C And then my follow up question to that is, I'm the emerging professional or the middle aged professional in architecture and I'm fed up. What is your advice to that individual?

F Good luck.

E Leave.

D Leave. Like why, why keep yourself in a bad situation that you're not enjoying?

C Yeah, I think that's a simple answer. I think, you know, but I've talked to so many people. Lebo is like, I'm committed. Even if they're not committed to the firm, they're committed to the project that's going to take another five years to finish. Because that's how architecture projects go. The clients, oh, the community that my project is a part of. So yeah, I mean, yes, that's.

D Those are all excuses, right? Like what you have first and foremost is your commitment to yourself.

B Right.

D If you're in a place where it's not fulfilling, where you're not growing, then you're in the place for the wrong reasons. All those things are going back to how architects are risk averse. It's always easy to say, hey, I'm not doing that because of X, Y and Z. It's much harder to say let's go.

B Right?

D It's much harder to Say, everything I've experienced so far has very little value in what I'm about to do, but I'm going to go do it anyway. That's much harder.

C Then what about somebody wanting to make the jump from architect to tech like you did, Lebo? What's their next step?

D Learn to code, build some projects, figure out what you like to do, and then interview, right? Like the interview's tough, but it's very passable. You just have to study, you have to know your. And then you just have to pass. That's. That's all it is, right? Like it's it. That's the great thing about technical interviews is, like, if you have the skills, you can pass interview. It's not like you have to pass this vibe. Check with some dude who like, may or may not have gone to the same school as your best friend who like, knows your professor, and then they can put in a good word like, like, who cares?

B Right?

D Like, can you write SQL? Can you design a database? Great, let's go.

B Right.

E I think just to build on this one thing, piece of advice that I got again from Troy, Sham and Levon, our press professor at Rice is, he said at one point, he said Alex was like 21 or something. He goes, alex, you're too uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. He says you need to be comfortable with discomfort, basically. And I think regardless of where you are in your career, but especially I think this has to do with architects. I'm not gonna say why exactly, but it just seems my pattern recognition indicates that a lot of architects are quite uncomfortable with situations that aren't familiar to them. And I think if you're going to move, like I see it all the time, you know, I want to become a developer because that feels like I'll be on the other side of the table and I'll have control. Yeah, but what does that mean? It means you're going to have to figure out how to do financial modeling. It means you're going to have to be able to sit there and read like, mind numbing data.

E Like, you're not going to be having fun with, with Rhino. Hey, Data, you're going to have to do these things that are uncomfortable. I think, you know, one really uncomfortable thing for all of us here was starting a podcast. Like, it was not fun. Like, intrinsically at first it was exciting, but like, you have to encounter once again, like, not being good at something. And I think that that's probably the most important thing. And know that, like, put yourself, you have to figure out how to Be bad at something, basically, like, do it in manageable steps. So, you know, try things out, test things, expose yourself in ways that maybe you're uncomfortable with, but also know that you'll survive.

E Right. Like, and so I think it's like figuring out how to. How do you want to modulate? Like, how do you want to move from the thing that you're really set and comfortable in to something that's more discomfortable. Usually that's just like, time and perseverance and repetition.

F Yeah. I think for individuals who are thinking about switching lanes or switching industries, that individual will have a gut feeling and probably on that person's inner self, they have a decision made already. So I'm a huge believer of gut feeling. And after having several years of experience, if you're not comfortable there and you want to do something else, I think it's totally valid to think about that and try to take action. Because the reality is, even if you switch, things get better, but some things get worse. So it's not going to be a perfect choice anyway. Like, that happens in development as development too. Like, you can do the design, but you also manage and deal with the circumstances of certain decisions.

F So if one decision goes bad, you'll lose money. Something goes right, you will gain. So I think the beauty of being a developer is that freedom that you achieve by taking the responsibility and the accountability of that decision. So I think there are opportunities out there outside of architecture. I mean, I also thought to myself, like, the only way to be a successful architect is to go to the best school, work with the best architects, open your studio or whatever and try to rise to that level. But I think there is a big shift in the reality that we are living now where how many of those museums are getting built every year? How many of those competitions are out there? It's not like we're back in the 70s or 80s where there's this growth of globalization and like, all the countries are opening up for new architecture. We're not at that stage, so. But we're at a stage of, you know, data renaissance.

F Technology is out there. Like, anything can be possible. I see a lot of, you know, YouTubers opening up their studios and some succeed and some not. Like, there's a lot of opportunities for entrepreneurship. So, you know, if you are thinking about it, think deeply and you'll know the answer and you act on it.

E I think one thing that really helps, though, to make a leap into anything is to don't necessarily go at it alone. Find people that share a direction, share an ambition, share the willingness to sacrifice something. I think that's what the three of us did with the podcast. I don't think one of us would have started it by ourselves, but having that support network and having people to also riff off of, that's also really difficult. Even for architects who stay in the practice and then start their own studio. It's like that moment when you're all by yourself, you have to be the critic, the producer, the manager, all at once. It's really difficult. So having people around you who you can do things with, I think is really helpful.

E And for me, for sure, it's helped me a lot.

F That's so true. And I say the same because, you know, Alex, your wife, Weija, we kind of did it in a coincidence where I worked with Alex in oma, New York, and then I went to MIT to do my master's in real estate development. And that's where I met Alex's wife, now Weija Song there. And, you know, that's how we got reconnected. And I think having. Sharing a similar background at OMA on design, but with a ambition and a goal to become a developer and take more kind of control over the work. We aligned in that path, and I think we've built a very strong kind of partnership in terms of supporting each other in the work that we do. So I would strongly back that statement that if you can and if you're lucky, you'll find people that will work with you, and if the goal is clear and large enough, there will be more that you'll meet along the way.

D Yeah, I mean, okay, so we need to preface this with saying MostPodn is a great podcast and you guys should all listen to it, but it's much more fun to build a shitty project with great people than to work on a great project with shitty people.

B Right.

D Like when I was working architecture, you know, designed some beautiful things, but worked with really miserable people, and I was miserable. But in tech, you do a hackathon, everyone's having fun, you're eating pizza, drinking beer, and then, yeah, you do a demo at the end of the day. Is it that great? Maybe not. But you have fun doing and you learn a lot, and that's much more enriching than grinding through this only to have a picture end up in a magazine and your name, like, 30th on the list.

A Hi, Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.