Digital Transformation in Practice

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this Hi, disruptors. Welcome back to Practice Disrupting. In this episode, we're focusing on digital transformation in architecture firms with a focus on 3 specific themes, the impact of digital transformation in architecture currently, what tech savvy strategies firms should be following or identifying or considering adopting in the near future, and what all of this means for the future of practice. Joining me on this week's episode are 2 experts in this space. So first, we have Tim Dafoe, the founder and chief revenue officer of Concert VDC. This is the 2nd time we've had Concert on the podcast, so we'll make sure we include a link back to the other episode in the show notes.

A Tim brings a wealth of experience from his time as CEO of Cunningham, which I believe Tim was 15 years at Cunningham as CEO.

B That's correct.

A And just for those of you who are wondering, what is ConcertVDC? ConcertVDC is a blockchain based platform that solves the problem of data ownership and secure sharing of digital information. Our second guest is Stephanie Trespass. Did I get that right, Stephanie? He was a director of operations at BWBR. Stephanie leads strategy and teams for technology systems, knowledge management, data, legal and risk management, and administrative services and works closely with all areas of the organization, I don't know how you do all of that, to identify solutions and improvement strategies for an evolving and thriving practice. So thank you both so much for taking time out of your schedules and joining us today on the show.

B It's great to be here.

C Great to

A be here. Thank you. Yeah. So I wanna start this a little bit more lighthearted before we go into digital transformation. Is there anything that we can know about you or learn about you today that isn't necessarily in your formal bio or on LinkedIn? I don't know. Tim, do you wanna kick it off?

B Sure. So, yeah, I'm an architect by training, and I'm now running a software company. That doesn't seem logical in some ways, but it's kind of been a passion of mine for the through the years to really focus on how do we move the industry forward. And I think I I have really focused my career on understanding this sort of interstitial space between design and technology because when I joined, I'm I'm I'm going on 40 years as an architect nowadays. And, back when I started, I'm I jumped into CAD right away. So it's sort of that early days of technology. So I'm a bit of an antique from that perspective, but love love the industry all the same.

A Yeah. Right. And Stephanie, how about you?

C Yeah. Well, hello. It's it's really great to be here. I'm a long time listener of the show. So hello to all the disruptors. And I guess my fun fact is in addition to my love of problem solving, I'm a really strong advocate for both sustainability and for learning. I spent several years as an adjunct design instructor and really appreciate that opportunity to engage with our students as they're developing on their knowledge journey and joining the workforce. I'm also considered learning just a really important part of our development in our careers and in our lives.

C I'm often found with, like, a stack of business books and regularly tuning into a number of podcasts, including this one, to make sure that I'm always learning and always being challenged. So that's a little bit about me.

A Yeah. Being on a business operations side of things and totally geeking out on that side, like, I always get excited when I hear other architects talk about how they're reading business books rather than complain about that one hour of professional practice that we all got going through our accredited programs. The learning doesn't stop there. So it definitely doesn't on our projects, and that includes the business side. So maybe we should get a list of some of your favorite reads down in the show notes if you're interested. Happy to share.

B Right.

A So digital transformation encompasses so much these days. So I would like our listeners to understand from each of you kind of what is what is your definition when you talk about digital transformation as related to architectural practice and what's going on in that space?

C Well, there's really two parts to defining this term. And at BWBR, we've looked at our digital practice as this collective set of tools and processes to develop digital representations of our design intent. And and it's also how we collaborate throughout our design life cycle. And that that transformation part of that term really comes into play with how we are road mapping changes onto those set of tools and processes and turning them into something that can become a long lasting reality and continue to optimize on our core set of services and how we're providing value to our clients. You know, just if we add a tool because it's exciting or we think it might be time saving without really understanding the impacts and how we do our work or how someone's trained or even why it's important that we're making that change, we're not gonna have that desired result in that transformation road map. And if we look at our digital tools, it's everything from our design software, our virtual reality tools, AI tools, but it's also leveraging our existing systems and tools in better ways. And the conversations that we're having around what's part of that tech stack has really expanded substantially over the past few years. And and that also means that we need a more diverse set of knowledge to really understand that entire digital ecosystem.

C And the deliverables for our work are now just there's so many more options beyond that kinda 2 d print format, and our design teams have so many more tools to collaborate and to deliver the right type of information that is specific to the unique problem that's being solved. The collaboration that's happening is now in a a, like, a common digital environment that becomes the deliverable. And the more streamline that we can make our set of tools and along with those sophisticated ways of managing and exchanging data, we'll continue to see this smooth journey from design idea through construction and all the way through into operations. And that's really transforming a conventional life cycle of design deliverables where it's made possible by the technology that we use to do our work. And I think where we're at right now is that need to focus on what does it mean to operate in those common digital environments because we're housing so much more data than we ever have historically, and we need to align it in our ways of collaborating and to meet those client goals. And I think those solutions are gonna involve more types of deliverables to achieve the design intent and optimize on how those deliverables are gonna be used for not only building construction, but also for operating high performing facilities beyond that design and construction timeline.

A That was I'm trying to I have so many questions in in your definition of digital transformation, but I want Tim to be able to jump in here. So needless to say, it sounds like in your mind, digital transformation is essentially touching every area of project management and the client relationship from start to finish and even provides several opportunities definitely in kind of post occupancy operational space for architects to be in that we might not be in yet, as well as potentially just how we kind of onboard our clients to all the tools that we're using and understanding workflows on the pre architectural side. Did I kind of encapsulate a lot of that?

C Great job. Absolutely.

A Okay. Tim, Stephanie said so much, but anything to to add to that or be build upon more specifically? Yeah.

B I think I I always pull back, pull out to maybe a bigger picture level, and that's and that's really the value that we as architects bring to our clients' businesses and and institutions. And I think the challenge that we face over time is what we do, what the design process does is tremendously valuable. And we've lost recognition of that value in the marketplace because it's been down to, you know, sort of this simplistic notion that architects deliver drawings. So what Stephanie talked about, so this whole notion of how do we change the way we use data and we use the digital tools that are available to us to actually help improve our clients' business or institution. For me, that's the core of what digital transformation is all about. It's taking and understanding at a much deeper level the design problem that's brought to us, and the design problem is brought to us in the form of, I have a need. I have a I need a new building. I need an expansion.

B I need a remodel. There's a need that is brought to the to the architect, and but that need at the core of that need is this notion or this understanding that something is impacting their business or their institution and causing it to be less effective, less efficient. So the architect using the design process has the capacity to significantly impact and improve that business or institution's performance, and there's where there's where the data lies. That's where we as a design profession can actually begin to capture and use this data and transform the value that we're driving to our clients in a way that actually we can be recognized for and ultimately becomes valuable to the client in ways that we can be compensated for.

A I mean, I I think you are singing to the choir, right, when it comes to how do we raise the value of what architects bring to the table? And in doing so, how does that translate to a better client relationship, but also more profitability and revenue for us in our firms as well. So I wanna dig a little bit more into digital transformation of architecture and how that does inform a better architect client relationship. I think, you know, Tim, you alluded to to data in general and being able to do so much more with that data or or helping the client do so much more with that data. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

B Sure. I think that, you know, as we've looked at at the transformation in our design processes, as we've moved more and more into the digital realm, What we've what we've developed and and the capacities that we have now to model and to actually, in essence, test ahead of construction, ahead of actual application. We can test decisions. We can test assumptions. We can model behaviors. We can model, outcomes in ways that can begin to inform at a deeper level the decisions that we're making in the design process. Now core to all of that is is certainly is that the the architect has to understand that more of what we to do today is about data, and less of what we do today is about the notion of traditional drawings. We are manipulating the data in just tremendously informative and effective ways, and the tools that are coming onto the scene relative to AI and machine learning can help inform those decisions even more.

B But we as an architecture industry, we have to understand how to use that. We have to retrain ourselves to understand that what we're manipulating here is a different kind of design process. And it isn't just necessarily, you know, entering some cool words into an AI engine and developing some wow really wowing renderings. It really is more focused on, again, coming back to that business problem and understanding, what are we trying to solve for here, and how do we create the best design solution that is gonna present the best outcomes to for that solution?

A I think, Stephanie, there's a great opportunity to kinda transition what from what Tim is saying to something that you mentioned earlier, where we talk about kind of the retraining and retooling to understand all of this new technology. So as somebody who is working within a firm, the realm of a firm, how, you know, how is BWBR managing all of this new knowledge that they need to bring on either as a a skill set with the individuals they already have or even as an entirely new skill set as you look towards integrating digital transformation within practice?

C Yeah. That's a a great question. It is it's a huge challenge. You know, we're we're busy. We're busy serving clients, and there's a lot of moving parts that go into this. And I think when we look at digital transformation, it's every single piece of it impacts so many different parts of our practice that I think having the lens of, you know, making those connections as we are trying to introduce changes or even identify where the changes need to start happening is, really quite a complex world to be in, but we need to be doing it, and we need to be doing it very quickly. And I think, you know, training staff is one thing, that's part of it, but it might also impact, you know, how we're doing training, how we're doing onboarding, how we're doing client engagement. And, it's gonna take us some time to really make sure that we're putting the effort to do those things really well.

A So I guess I'm gonna I'm gonna dig a little deeper. How do you guys actually find the space to create that time? And, you know, how do you build it into your process so it becomes kind of like, the norm is a state of continuous improvement?

C Yeah. Well, it is a great question. I think through some of it is and we have to find ways to do it in the flow of the work that we're doing. If everything sits outside of the work, it just won't have that real time application. But we need leadership in exploring these opportunities. So having some structured pilot projects, really putting it as part of firm goals to make sure that we're putting the efforts behind it and even developing new roles as we look to our future. You know, I think when our BIM manager retired several years ago, we were really intentional to rehire that as a design technologist. Somebody who's gonna help us look forward to the future with, you know, beyond just BIM and where we really need to be going with the growing complexities of digital environments and deliverables.

C And we've also realized that need for some specialization that we need to support project teams within. So we have a specialist that's, you know, focusing on our BIM processes and efficiencies and a specialist on visualization tools. And then our that's allowing our design technologist to really look at piloting and understanding where pain points are at and helping to bring some of those solutions to teams and do some pilot tests. And really importantly, we have to learn to to fail and to fail quickly so that we can, be implementing really tangible solutions that are gonna help to support the work that we need to do to serve our clients.

A I think that's to fail and fail quickly is a common term, right, that I think we often hear on the business side of things, I feel like I am happy to have that term show up on the podcast. I are happy to hear that terminology coming from an architecture practitioner. I hope that it's something that becomes more ingrained into just the overarching culture that we have within practice going forward. Now, Tim, I imagine that you're also talking and working not only with Stephanie, but others in the field. So what are you seeing as some of the biggest challenges that firms are facing when it comes to integrating digital transformation or how they're thinking about this?

B So it's really interesting. We we talk a lot about having to train internally for staff transition and for, you know, this whole notion of working differently in inside the firm. But there's a lot of training that also has to happen outside the firm, and that's really the relationship with your client, the relationship with the contractor. Being able to have the conversation with your clients about what digital transformation means, what tools you need to use for that, why those tools have value to what they're doing. There's a very, very narrow definition of architects in the public realm, in in the marketplace today, and and so consequently, most clients still think of architects as, oh, you're gonna give me some drawings so that I can get a contractor to build it. And then the construction side too, there's, you know, while the large the super large contractors are heavily engaged in using more and more digital tools for what they're doing. There are a lot of contractors who are sort of the medium to small contractors who, you know, they're they're working with all of the traditional tools of the trade, and they don't necessarily know or understand why there is value in using a digital component in the construction process as opposed to just simply, can't you just give me a drawing of that? So I think we're in this we're in this phase of transition where we're we're gonna be doing both for a long time. And the question becomes, how fast will we move towards a full digital ecosystem versus how long will we have to carry along a paper based, even if it's a PDF, which is digital, but it's still fundamentally a paper based system.

B How long are we gonna have to carry that system along And do both. And that's where we you know, we're gonna architects are really gonna struggle with the value of how do I jump into this digital ecosystem if I've also got a fundamentally, my contractor says, I have to deliver plans and specifications. So it's a really interesting time. Like I said, the training on both sides of the coin is gonna be necessary for this to make the leap forward.

A Does that mean there's an opportunity or do you see it as an opportunity then for architects to lead in this space and be the educator and kind of the one defining the tools? Or alternatively, and here it goes with my 2 part question, are we gonna be in trouble if we don't instigate the change and outside forces from outside come in and and do it as well?

B There's the $1,000,000 question, or perhaps the $1,000,000,000 question. Yeah. It's there's there's, like, a huge opportunity for architects right now to lead this transformation. And the challenge that we face in the industry is there's a there's a undeniable avoidance of risk in architecture. It's been built into the industry for a long time, and and what we're talking about here has risk that comes with it. If I'm gonna be sharing digital information that I've created directly for fabrication or construction, then whoever's fabricating or constructing is gonna depend upon that. And I'm responsible. I have to be responsible.

B And accepting that responsibility comes with also the understanding that you have a mechanism to control how that act how that information is used, and ultimately how the outcome in terms of the finished product is gonna be shaped by the information that you're providing. And again, that's that's part of the reason why I'm I'm doing what I'm doing right now is because, you know, the mechanisms to allow the architect to have that control didn't exist when we started all of this. That's why we created Concert, why we really are focusing on trying to create the mechanism to create the reporting and the understanding of what is the right information to be used, how is the information supposed to be used. And then ultimately making sure that along that entire process that everybody understands what digital information is valuable and what digital information is not.

A What does this mean for the smaller practices? I see an upside to small practices because they can be so agile because there's so few team members and they can more quickly move together. But what about the small practices who are just saying like, I don't have time and my contractors aren't going to come along with me. So I just need to get the work done and the way that that's always been done because that's what's worked. And and I don't have the scale or the ability to say we need to do it this way. Otherwise, I'm going to go with somebody else.

B I've talked to a number of small firms, and, you know, we have customers who are 30 architects. And, yeah, I would agree that small firms have the ability to be nimble. I do think that the one of the challenge of the smaller firm is they're they're very much individually driven. And so the individual who is leading that firm has to have that vision. And what I what I found is that for the most part, the smaller firms and the individual that's leading that firm is very comfortable doing what they're doing, and they don't wanna change it.

C And I think all firms are really, kind of regardless of size, are challenged by the time that it takes to transform processes. And kind of wherever you're starting from, it's it's gonna take an investment of time. I think there's also gonna be a potential growing pressure on technology budgets as we look at, you know, where we're we're investing, and that needs to be a part of the process. But I think the big part of it is the change and how quickly you can navigate that in your own organization and what makes the most sense for your firm size. I've been, you know, reading, of course, a lot of books, and one right now is on managing change and transitions. And they say it's always the the the quote that, I guess, resonated with me was that it it isn't the changes that do you win. It's the transitions. And I I think that's true regardless of your firm size because there's this anxiety of not knowing what that new normal looks like.

C You know, we talk about, like, how long are we living in both worlds and what is this really gonna mean for all the different roles that we have. And in a small firm, I think oftentimes people are are playing so many different hats. And so you have to think about it from their perspective of of how does that change in their workflows and their value that they're bringing not only to the firm but to clients. And in larger firms, there's probably more specialization, but you still need to map out how the connections are with people, processes, and technology so that you're getting at the right type of change to really be meaningful. And it's all a challenge, I think, regardless of what size of firm you're at.

A So I think up to this point, we've been talking very heady and very big about digital transformation, but I'm I'm wondering if we can get down to any specific examples. Tim, you're obviously welcome to talk about what Concert VDC brings to the table. But Stephanie, I'd also love to hear from you, you know, like where is BWBR's focus right now? And, you know, of the entire client project process, what tools have you used and where have you seen the most process improvement in in adoption of of tools?

B Yeah. So, at Concert, what we've been focusing on is really trying to begin the process of training teams on how this how to use information or how to share information to be used for construction. One of our, you know, our largest customer has, you know, been doing this for a long time already, so they're fairly well versed in how you work with subcontractors or with vendors to actually share digital information. I liken it to the fact though that it's it's really no different than the shop drawing process, during construction is that, you know, you're you're trading information back and forth. In a shop drawing, you know, the the vendor, the subcontractor is interpreting the architect's drawings into a set of drawings that they're gonna actually build from. The architect is reviewing those drawings for design intent, fundamentally just trying to make sure that, you know, they didn't misinterpret something. And then those are, you know, either sent to the shop or out to the field for the actual construction. What we're talking about in this digital ecosystem is no different in terms of the interaction.

B I'm sharing information with you. You're using that information by adding to it, adapting it, or translating it into a different machine language that's gonna drive your production system. And then in the process, we're coordinating back and forth to make sure that what I put forward as the design intent is still ingrained inside of that information. So really, the process doesn't change. It does become more efficient because nobody is having to reinterpret the information. And I think that's where we've we got lost in the traditional mechanisms is that we had this constant reinterpretation going on, and now we have this much cleaner, clearer picture of information that drives construction. Now it doesn't doesn't have to necessarily be the architect's actual digital information that drives it, but the capacity to share that digital information directly without interpretation is what's gonna drive the the efficiencies.

A How about you, Stephanie?

C Sure. You know, I look at that when you talk about that full collection of all the different digital tools, it's quite a range, and I think it's it's fun to see how that has really changed over the past number of years. And I I think one of the biggest improvements though that I've seen is in the types of tools that we're using around design communication with clients. I think there's this idea around, you know, I guess when we first started, you know, doing projects, there was only like a few hand rendered sketches to communicate intent to a client. And now you're having, you know, fully, you know, VR environments and animations to really showcase that high level of detail. And those are really great in being able to communicate to clients, but they're even better when we collaborate as a team and a bigger project team because we can be having more conversations around what is the right design solution. And the focus right now is how do we train more people to engage with those types of tools because there's not just design intent, but there's also data that lies underneath a lot of those programs. And it's what we're trying to focus on right now is the intersection of how do we get all that data to talk to each other and be able to be shared with more of our team partners.

C And so it's it's really about these connectors that are taking place and trying to inform the next phase of what that digital collaboration and communication environment will look like for both our project teams, but also with our clients.

A So something that's not necessarily in our prep sheet, but, you know, Tim, you talked a lot about educating architects being the educators in this process. And Stephanie, you've talked a lot also about kind of bringing the firm along. Do you have any examples or or maybe shared experience that you can give about how you've actually had a successful

B You

C You know, I think of a an example that in terms of just even digital transformation, even beyond the design communication is just how we're even applying, like, signatures, stamps, and seals within our deliverables. And that became a whole new conversation around how we're putting safeguards around our work, but just also the the professional liability and the requirements for all the different states in which we work. It's not just simply a tool that does it. It is we have to train our staff in new processes. We are working with our legal counsel. We're working with operations teams. So there's definitely both identifying the solution, but then how we start to train. And we have different learning programs.

C We have we have these, like, landmark learning sessions that have been really popular with our technical staff. And so we introduce these new concepts as they're rolling out about what is the change, what does it mean for for a process on a project, who's gonna be responsible for this piece of that project. And so it's the strong communication that really needs to come with everybody who's involved, making sure that the the project manager knows what that change is, and so they can be held accountable for that change. And, ultimately, our principals who are signing off on the deliverables need to be on board with it as well. So there's just so many different opportunities as we look at, the change of digital delivery and the work that we are doing.

A Tim, is there any conversation that you've seen, maybe even as we're talking, like, architect to contractor, architect to to client.

B You know, it it's interesting for, what, the last 13 years, the AIA 201 or e 201 has been the standard document that architects have used with regards to digital information in the in sharing in the construction process. But the new E 201 came out in 2022 that actually allows the architect to define and and clearly delineate what digital information will be used with right of reliance. And I think that's one of the core components that in the conversations with both building people building owners and contractors and architects is that understanding what right of reliance means. Understanding that, you know, really, we've got multiple layers and multiple levels of information that will be used for the construction process, but we have to be clear about which information the contractor can rely upon for that construction process. Many clients don't understand that notion of reliance. Their assumption is just simply that if I, as the architect, am sharing something that that's free to be used for whatever purpose it's needed for. And that's where we you know, again, at Concert, what we've tried to really focus on is being clear about understanding and delineating what the information is to be used for. Because if it's not to be used for construction, if it's only for reference, then everybody needs to understand that and everybody needs to respect that.

B If it is to be used for construction, it's there's a specific use in the construction process that it should be used for. Understanding what is the specific use this is to be used for. As an example, if we're gonna be if I'm gonna be sharing my BIM model with a contractor, and I'm gonna be sharing it just simply for the delineation of the slab edge on the building, that it needs to be clearly stated that this model is to be used only for defining the slab edge on the building, not for anything else. And I think that gets lost in translation, and certainly it got lost in the drawing component of, traditional architectural delivery. But we have more capacity to be clear about that in the new digital ecosystem because we have the capacity to be very specific and to and to share information that is very specific to one use within the context of the construction process. That's, again, conversations with building owners about that. Their eyes glaze over. They they're just like, what do you mean? I mean, you're giving contractor information.

B Can he build from it? And so there's a lot there's a lot to be learned from the process of talking with your client, and there's a lot that you can bring to your client when you talk about digital information as a valuable resource in the design construction process.

A So one of the interesting things or one of the things that I had at business school that I actually wish we had in architecture school was this large catalog of if you ever went on an interview, whether it was for an internship or after, like, after graduation, there was this large database that you could say, like, what company you interviewed for, what firm, like, the specific person in that company, the questions they ask, any other thoughts on how the interview went and they can indicate whether or not you got the job afterwards or not. I think there's an interesting dialogue that can also happen between, you know, this is this is actually between the conversations that architects have with clients and also kind of how we've successfully navigated those conversations in a way that clients can understand so that the younger project managers or the younger people in the firm can then I don't know if every firm had a bot, like a chatbot that had this catalog of information to say, like, my client's asking x y z. I don't know how to approach it. And it like, this is how this is how BWBR has responded to that in the past, like, and it's been quite successful. We we suggest, I don't know, even maybe a template templated email or a templated phone conversation on how that might go. I think there's a a lot of little tools like that that can even help be better communicators and help us learn from past mistakes and past success as well.

B You know that's Evelyn, that's an interesting area that I I don't think we're having enough conversations about in the in the field. We're talking a lot about how AI can help in the design process and how we can use AI to create better or more, you know, wow factor designs. But the real reason the real value of of AI is really that ability to interpret and and translate data. And to to tap into that inside an organization and use it not only as a learning tool, but also as a mechanism for, you know, cutting cutting around some of the problems that we've always faced in in the firm, which is how do I how do I train the next generation to do the right things, but also give them the opportunity to learn from their own mistakes?

A So speaking of the next generation and and the future of architecture, we've kind of hinted at the opportunities that digital transformation presents in the architecture community. Maybe we can leave this episode on a more aspirational note and think about, you know, if those opportunities came to fruition, and if we took the time and the ability to capture all the opportunities, like what does that mean for how architects practice in the future?

B I think there's a big component of that. For me, what the aspiration is is that there is so much more that architects do in the design process that shapes not only the building, but the space around the building, the community, the people who are using the building that is is lost in the process. And I think that what this new digital ecosystem is going to create is the opportunity for us to capture more and more of that and to also to to leverage that in ways that we can truly create a living building. We can create the opportunity for feedback, ongoing feedback that is it's no longer the architect designs the building, the contractor builds it, and everybody walks away. That there's this ongoing relationship. There's this ongoing interaction between the building and the architect and between the building owner and the architect about what's working, what's not. How do we use that building better? How do we make that building effective for a 1000 years, not a 100 years? And I think that's where we have the opportunity to take this as an industry, and I hope I I truly believe that we can, and I hope that architects at their at their core are looking at digital transformation as the mechanism to not just simply do something more with more wow factor, but simply but but look at it as this is a way that we can actually change the world.

C Yeah. I think if I I look ahead, you know, and for through my lens, it's how are we operating as, design and architecture firms. I think one of the predictions that I might have is just really that investment that firms are gonna need to make and understanding their own processes and where those opportunities for transformation are. That can all be super time consuming, and it really challenges so many ways of our conventional thinking as we've chatted about. I think it's that, you know, that this is how we've always done it mindset, and it's gonna take disruption to rethink those assumptions. And and, really, there's not a perfect solution right now, and there's not a single road map that all firms are gonna follow because it's gonna look different. You know, we need to take time to learn from others who have gone down similar transformation journeys. And I look back, I think, well, that pandemic was such a huge leap for us to get so many of our digital tools to become a reality probably so much sooner than if we would have just done our natural transition along our technology road maps.

C And I hope we don't have a giant push like that again, but I do think we need to move more quickly and take bigger steps than we're probably comfortable with right now. And I think our as an industry, you know, we still have a place of agency through the work that we're doing, and that translates into, you know, transforming lives in our communities in which the work itself resides in the form of a built environment. And, you know, we should really be focusing on the knowledge that it takes to bring those projects to complete fruition and then allowing our technology to support our processes and help us deliver that incredible value to our clients.

A Lots of opportunities for us here in the architecture profession if we act on a lot of what we're having conversations about. But what does this mean in terms of new roles, new products, new services, new specializations that architects could potentially be going into in the future as well?

C I think a few new roles that we've had developed in addition to our design technology team is we have a data analyst who works very closely with our design technology team on a number of different data integrations and finding ways to really leverage these growing amounts of data that we have. We also have a knowledge manager, which is near and dear to my heart because it was a role that I helped to develop at our firm about 15 years ago. And it's really grown into the fabric of what we do, looking at our our data, our knowledge, how we're practicing. And it's it's just super exciting to see how these collaborations among our design teams and our design technology data knowledge folks and how we're approaching our tools and processes with unique thinking. Not only with what we know today, but how we're setting ourselves up for that more digitally focused future.

A Tim, any last thoughts from you too?

B Yeah. I think there's there's huge opportunities for, again, that sort of post occupancy role that the architect can play that most firms today, they don't have they don't have individuals inside the organization who know or understand or want to focus on that role of the the living building after after it's been occupied. And there's a huge, from a revenue standpoint, there's a huge opportunity for architects as they become stewards of these buildings to become, to make that part of their income stream and and to provide more stable income. I mean, architecture as a whole, we're constantly in this process of working ourselves out of a job. And here's an opportunity where we can not do that as much and focus more on a long term sustainable application of what we do so that we're building more effective buildings. The title of your podcast says it. We can be the disruptors, or we can be disruptive. It's up to us.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of practice disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.