The Architecture of Systems: Building a Self-Running Firm

A This episode is brought to you by Gelt. Firm owners, are you overpaying on taxes? I use Gelt for my business and saved over $10,000 in year one. Visit joingelt.com and mention Practice of Architecture for 10% off your first year. Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology, and create more sustainable sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted.

A Today I'm talking with Darwin Fortuna, founding principal of Flow Design Architects in Massachusetts, chair of the AIA Small Firm Exchange, and the first Dominican-born recipient of the AIA Young Architect Award. Darwin's path to practice wasn't linear. He started architecture school in the Dominican Republic, came to the United States in 2010, and found himself taking ESL classes while working night shifts at Wendy's, almost starting over from scratch. He passed all 6 ARE exams in just over a year while his wife was pregnant with their second child, got licensed the same morning his daughter was born, and immediately knew he needed to build something different. What frustrated him most about traditional practice wasn't just the long hours or the lack of visibility into how firms actually made money. It was never knowing when a project was done, watching scope creep eat profitability, and being asked to cancel his honeymoon because a firm couldn't manage its client relationships. So he and his partner Marcus Severino built Flow with extremely clear systems. They quantify their architecture services using three levels named after classical columns: Ionic, Doric, Corinthian.

A They charge for initial consultations, and they require client signatures at every stage. They created a fictional office manager to handle money conversations, and they've recorded hundreds of training videos so the firm can run without them. We talk about what it actually takes to build systems that protect profitability, how to teach young designers to charge for their worth, and what it means to be your own kind of architect.

B Hi Darwin, welcome to Practice Disrupted. So glad to have you join us this week.

D Thank you so much for having me, Evelyn. It's been a pleasure to connect with you and see you throughout the years, and, and being here is awesome for me.

B Yeah, well, I think I've been following a lot of your story in the background, but what I didn't really know about until recently was how you're running your firm and kind of the interesting way you've set up the customer experience to ensure, one, I think that you are paid on everything that you're providing them, but two, important, which I think is more important than most people realize, but two, also just so it's a very specific way that you've trained your staff to manage those client engagements too. But before we jump directly into that, Why don't we back up from the beginning and learn why you were interested in becoming an architect in the first place?

C You know, architecture kind of found me. The story is bizarre, right? I graduated high school. We're all hanging out, all of our friends, one of my friend's house, and they're all enrolling into college. And I ask one of my friends, hey, where are you going to go to school? And he's like, oh, Universidad Autónoma de Santo Domingo, which is in the Dominican Republic. And then I'm like, "Okay, why are you going to do architecture?" And he's like, "Oh, I'm good at math and I'm good at geometry." So, I literally pulled up my grades from high school and I said, "I'm good at math. I'm good at geometry. Why don't we sign up to the same program together and we make sure we make it through?" Because it's uncertain world, right? We didn't know what we were getting into. So, we did that.

C And now, in hindsight, I kind of could rationalize why I like playing with ants and creating almost ruins for ants and insects at home when I was little. So, I kind of rationalized later like, "Oh, I guess I was always interested in architecture. I just didn't know about it. I didn't know that that was architecture." But it was really that jump from my friend deciding that he wanted to be an architect. And ironically, first semester ends and he drops out of a studio and says, "No, I'm going to become an engineer." And I'm like, I did this for you. But then I realized it was really meant to be for me. It was really meant to be my ecosystem, my world. I didn't fit in so great in the Dominican, in the profession, because it's kind of elite kind of work, but I made it my own over time.

C You see Darwin walking in, it's like a factory, and Darwin coming out, and it's a different Darwin. So now I'm trying to retain things I lost in the way, like bringing them back, but When I went to architecture school, I was wearing earrings and big hip-hop kind of clothes, and I like rapping and music. And one professor said, I would not hire you for a $1 million project. And I was like, what do you mean? And then at that point, I kind of realized, yeah, you're right. I got to start projecting trust. I got to start projecting certain persona. Now I'm picking those things back.

B You need your own little brand and personality, but I feel like you make it shine through in a lot of other different ways. So you alluded, though, to ants. And building cities for insects?

C Yeah, that's how I did it.

B What's that about?

C Yeah, so literally, so I would grab a bunch of rocks. I mean, I'm from the Dominican Republic, so in our backyard we have, you know, we do play in the backyard often there, right? So something the United States, some people don't do because of winter and whatever. But I would play there and I would find like their, their nests and things like that and start putting the rocks together and I would find— this is kind of weird, but I would find like if a lizard died, I would see how the ants would go to the lizard, you know, and try to grab it and eat it. And I would like do a graveyard basically for the lizards, you know, like and put it all together with rocks. It was pretty cool. Like it was fun, you know, it's really fun. So, I would make cities and, you know, see how they would grab the lizard and move it into another place. And I'm like, I guess they live there, so let's make a bigger rock mountain here so that they can bring it there.

C And it was so bizarre. I was a weird kid, I guess. It was weird.

B It's just interesting. I just wanted to kind of circle back because you're like, yeah, I built city for ants. And I was like, what is— what does that mean, building cities for ants?

C Yeah, it was just finding their food and then gravitating towards making an entire city for that, you know, around that ecosystem. Yeah.

B Yeah. But you are no longer in the Dominican Republic, so How did you make your way here?

C So my grandmother came here probably about 30 years ago. Her sister was a nurse that worked with the president of the Dominican Republic back in the day, and that president made like a treaty with the United States to kind of bring her here. And she made a petition for my grandmother, and my grandmother then made a petition for my mother through the PERM case, like the the process. And any unmarried children of my grandmother who had children that were also minors could be included. So we came in a package of 4, my mom and my sister and my brother. So we all came here in 2010. I was already on my 3rd year of architecture school in the Dominican Republic, and that's kind of how we made it here. And ironically, we made it to Salem, Mass.

C And then The person that brought, you know, my aunt, I call it my aunt, who is my grandmother's sister, moved to Florida like shortly after. And I was like, you brought us here. And she's like, yeah, it's too cold. Bye. After being here for like 30 years, like it's too cold. I'm like, well, you're supposed to help us settle in a little bit here. You know, she immediately moved back to move to Florida. So she wasn't— she lives in West Palm Beach now.

C So she definitely has better weather than us.

B So what did you do to finish your education then? You said you were in the third year at Dominican Republic and you moved to Salem.

C So I moved and I crafted a plan of attack, right? So first, Darwin, get a job because we got to pay bills here, right? So I got a job at Wendy's. That was my first job. And I was, you know, doing my burgers and having fun with that. And then that was part of the supporting financially kind of plan. The other side of the plan was, let's get back to architecture somehow. So, to get back to architecture somehow, I had to learn English. So, I went to the North Shore Community College and I picked up an English as a Second Language certificate. So, that was like, oh, because when I studied architecture in the Dominican Republic, you had to explain concepts.

C You have to communicate. You cannot not communicate. So, that was a no-brainer for me. So, I got that. After that, I looked for schools that I had already kind of investigated back when I was in the Dominican and tried to check if they still mattered to me. And the Boston Architectural College, the BAC in Boston, still was the to-go place because it would marry the— I still have to support my family working and I can get my architectural education. And it was at that time more catered towards Older people, you know, that knew what they wanted and how they wanted to do it. And, you know, now it's different actually.

C There's a lot of young people there. But, but at that point I was like, there's no time to waste. You know, my friends are already getting married and having kids in the Dominican. Like, I don't have time to waste. So there was no partying or anything like that. It was more, let's go to work, let's go to school, let's go to work, let's go to school. And, um, and I made my way through architecture at the BAC., with, with a Bachelor's of Architecture, which is the degree I have right now.

B You're hardcore. We'll just put it that way. You're like heads down, getting things done, figuring out what you need to do. So you passed all 6 of your ARE exams in just over a year. It took me a lot longer to get through my 9. I'm not gonna go over that right now. You had a young family. Your wife was pregnant with your second child and you got licensed the same— you had 2 things to celebrate.

B On the birth of your second daughter, including your licensure.

C That's right. Yeah. Every time I renew my license from Maine and people wonder like, Maine, why? So I always remember, you know, it's like, oh, it's my daughter's birthday and it's also my license renewal date because this is the day that we renew it. And this is a funny story. I live in Massachusetts. I don't live in Maine. I've never lived in Maine. Why get licensed in Maine? Well, when I looked at the NCARB and the jurisdiction.

C You could pick your jurisdiction. I don't know if they still do that, but I looked at the requirements of Maine and I called them. And I already had completed my hours for Massachusetts, but in Massachusetts, and still to this day, it's one guy that processes the license. He's processing licenses and I don't think he can type with his entire fingers. He probably types— and I love him, John Hill. I love the guy. I still love the guy. He's awesome.

C He's not a bad guy. I'm not trying to talk bad about him, but he processes the license with one finger probably. And I call this lady and she's like, "We don't have a lot of initial licensure requests. I could process yours within 24 hours." And that was on a Thursday and we go into labor that night. And I say, "Oh my goodness, Bobby." Her name was Bobby. I don't know if she still works in the Maine Architectural License Board, but please, I want to get this done. And I email as I was at the hospital sending all this stuff. Then the next day, Eviana is born., and I get the email, "Congratulations, here's your initial license.

C Here's your letter. Please get us a copy of your stamp so that we can have a record, and you're done." And I was like, "Oh my goodness, two great things, Eviana and my license." And it was because I couldn't wait, Evelyn. I couldn't wait. You know, being able to call yourself an architect legally, right? A lot of people use that term out there that they shouldn't, but legally, you know, within a jurisdiction, That was amazing. That was really amazing for me. So, that was like a big win for us. And then I immediately transferred to Massachusetts and John Hill made it happen within the same year. So, that was great.

C So, there was no lapse of, you know, licensure within there. And we changed the name of Flow Design to Flow Design Architects as soon as John Hill clicked send on his license in Massachusetts because, you know, we had to be licensed in Massachusetts to be able to practice. So, that day we're like, can we do this? And he's like, yeah, you should do this.

B So that was great. That's amazing. So you mentioned Flow, which you founded in 2017. Yes. Talk to us about why you started Flow and the experiences that made you want to build it a certain way.

C Yeah. So, you know, we come to the States, Latinos, and I'm saying we in general, like we're all the same, but we come here, we're hardworking individuals and Work doesn't scare us. Hard work doesn't scare. That's kind of a common thread within Latinos and at least like I would say within me. So, I wanted to do my thing and grow within different firms and/or a firm and contribute to their success over time. But unfortunately, there was a mix of not fitting in but also not being empowered but also not being given a chance even though I was working within the pre-established hierarchies. And then, I started jumping around and I didn't want to jump around. And I use this term and pardon my French, but I became kind of like a job whore, but it wasn't by choice.

C I didn't feel like I belonged. I didn't feel like I was going to ever make it up. And me and my partner, Marco Severino, would call each other after work and we would be complaining, but we're not complainers. It was because, "Hey, here we are, passionate, hardworking individuals." who want to just be given a chance, who want to thrive. And we see like there's roadblocks and ceilings put left and right. You know, even when I talked about like, hey, after graduation, I'm going to go sit for my exams and start getting licensed. Oh, don't worry about being licensed. We're 270 people.

C It really doesn't matter. Like some of the big firms. And I was like, dude, you should be like the first person encouraging me and you're the one telling me not to do this. So it's really I felt like I wasn't getting good intention feedback, I would say. So, started jumping around, seeing patterns within the different firms, patterns of you never knew when you were done with a project. You never knew when you were done. I didn't know what they were charging. None of the firms I worked at ever showed me a contract.

C 10 different firms I worked at. Never saw a contract. Never knew when I was done.

B Talk about never knowing when you're done. Short of, short of your project manager saying you need to move on to another project.

C Yeah, so but the thing is, it was always unfinished. And it was always ongoing. And then things will always pop up and changes will always come in. And it just, you should get to a point where you're like, I successfully completed this project. I've done what I'm supposed to do, so that you could even sit down for a review and say, you know what, I successfully done 5, 6. Now they're still going, there's still questions, there's still things going on. It's like, Oh my goodness, this is insane. So business-wise, I never knew what the target was and what the deadlines really were and how they were put together.

C And I, and I felt like there was a lot of redundancies and waste. And I didn't have the agency to even talk about it.

B And I would say this might not be true of Gen Z, because I think they're asking a lot more questions, the ones entering the workspace. But like, I didn't even think to ask about when I was going in firms, like, I didn't even think to ask, like, I want to see the contract, I want to understand my billable hours. So one, I think it's unique to you to be asking those things, but also what type of pushback were you getting when you were asking those things?

C So there was one firm that comes to mind right away. So the pushback was, look around, everybody else wants that. It was more like we were all asking kind of for the similar thing or what was next within the company. And that kind of information was only exclusive to leadership. So even my PMs were also trying to keep that little bit of agency and knowledge of certain things from everybody else. I remember walking into one of the offices and saying, I'm going to become an architect. I'm going to get licensed. This is the path I'm in., and I want to know how do I become a project architect? Like, how can I be? And it's like, no, like, focus on being a job captain or a draftman or senior draftman.

C Like, you know, focus on that better, you know. So I was basically steered towards the, like, the worker bee side versus like, sure, I will be more than happy to explain to you how we make it rain, how we charge, how— so that you're conscientious to how you can design and be a project architect, like, you know, so that you can be mindful. In my opinion, I want people to come and ask me that stuff at Flow, but they weren't really doing it. So it was very much hidden. There are other offices that wasn't even on the server like that, that information doesn't exist. Like certain information, you know, it was more project driven, but versus how are the finances being managed? What are the billable hours? How do we do that stuff? That wasn't really clear. I don't know how people operate like that, but That's just me.

B Was there anything else that was really kind of frustrating you that ultimately, like, what was the turning point where you're like, okay, let's, let's go build this ourselves?

C So besides not being given agency to understand contracts and communications and reworking myself until 9 PM, 10 PM almost every day, I was also the shadow. I was the one to blame if things weren't right. It was very frustrating, Evelyn, in that when I made the jump, I'll tell you how I made the jump, right? When I made the jump full-time to go to Flow, to open Flow, I had a review at an office where I worked and they said, "You're getting 10 out of 10 in every aspect of our company, which we've never given to anybody." And I was like, "Wow, I feel privileged." It was the husband and wife sitting together with me. We went to Cafe Nero and we were talking and I say, "Okay." I really appreciate this feedback and I'm honored to hear that, but do you know that I have been miserable since the first day I started working here? I said that. I said that. I hope our relationship, because I like them, gets better. It hasn't gotten any better over the years, but it was because one, they asked me to cancel my honeymoon, to push my dates because they had deadlines when I came on board.. And I would get there at 6:00 AM and I would walk out of there at 7:00 PM.

C There was no filter to the fact that, "Hey, this guy has to have a life." There wasn't that balance there. And last minute, after working until 9:00 PM, you show up at 6:00 AM in the morning and the principal or leading architect would call you for a 10:00 AM meeting that you prepare for and say, "Hey, we got to change X, Y, and Z and do a new rendering and do everything." And it was like, "No." We got to have balance. I don't see my kids in the morning because I wake up too early and I don't see my kids at night because I get home too late. We cannot do that. And it all had to do with business. It really all had to do with how you were operating the business and they weren't operating it correctly. So that was it for me. I needed to be able to see my kids.

C I needed to be able to spend time with my family and I needed to be able to have balance. And it's a bigger problem when you cannot do something that takes 8 hours within 8 hours.

B You know, so in hearing things like that, architecture leader or firm leader says that, or project manager says that, can you move your honeymoon because we have an issue with a client? To me, the alarm bells isn't like, God, you have a demanding client. It's a, wow, you have a horrible leader that doesn't know how to control the client relationship and just allow the client to walk all over you. So how do you build a business and systems that enable you to have better control of that client relationship?

C It all comes down exactly as you said it, to business. It all has to do with the principles that you want to infuse into your business as a life and your legacy as an individual. So when we started Flow, we didn't know everything, Evelyn. We made mistakes. We had no idea what we were doing. We knew what we didn't want to be. And therefore, we try to steer away from those things. Just to kind of refresh us, what didn't you want to be at that point? So, we didn't want to be an office where people worked after 5:30 and had to work Saturdays and Sundays.

C We didn't want to be an office where vacations would be interrupted if you were on vacation. We didn't want to be an office that even called you to talk about work after 5:30 whatsoever. So, we didn't want to be an office that was based on blaming the staff members when things were going wrong, when they had no agency over timelines and deadlines and deliverables. We didn't want to do that. But ultimately too, we wanted people to belong and have a voice. And I always go back to the principle of EDI is great. Inclusivity is getting invited to the party. Diversity is having multiple people within the party, you know, and equity is being given a shot at dancing within the party.

C But belonging is really dancing as though nobody's watching you. And we wanted people to feel like they could dance here as though nobody was watching. And how do you build that? Systems, processes, balances, and checks. And it all starts with the leaders. It'll start with you. I want to see my kids at night. I want to see my kids in the morning. If there's an emergency at home, I want to be able to walk out of here and know that things are going to be fine.

C And the only way that things can be fine is if you have systems in place and that kind of like almost empathy by osmosis that you know, yeah, I know, you know, we're all good. So starts with initial consultation with a client. We do initial consultations of flow. That's step 0. We built that step in which we meet with the client and discuss, why are your pain points? Why are you looking for what I'm looking into? What kind of a client is this individual or entity? Do they value our services or don't they value our services? How do you know that from the get-go? We charge for initial consultations. Every time we meet with a new client, we charge a fee that varies depending on the distance and project type. And if a client— and what we learned is that a client that cares jumps at the opportunity of paying you to meet with you. They are excited to meet with you.

C A client that's a tire kicker that sees our services as a necessary evil, wasteful kind of necessary evil, and belittles our services will always frown upon any charges and say, "But such and such didn't charge me. But such and such doesn't charge." You're going to lose a lot of business. And they start with fear and authority and control, and that's not positive. A client that knows, "I value my time, therefore I value your time. I will pay you gladly for your services," already takes a lot of unnecessary discussions and roadblocks. I already like them. I really like them just by the fact that they want to pay for that, and then I book them right after they pay their initial consultation fee. We set a date and we book them.

C We meet with them, we discuss them. It also takes away an ouch that I felt when we first started business. Evelyn, we're talking about 2017, '18, '19. Pandemic comes in. I don't have money for gas. I'm going to drive to you, meet with you, discuss your project on site, and, and pay money from my pocket? That's not right. You meet with an attorney, you meet with a doctor, you meet with any other professional, and it's a life and death matter, they pay. Everybody pays.

C There's always something that's being paid. So, why wouldn't you take that pain away from me so that way I'm not at the meeting not listening because I got to pay bills, I have to support my children? So, it just takes away the ouch and you're like, you know what? If nothing comes out of it, you at least pay for my gas money today and it's a nice ride. So, it takes the ouch and then therefore you can listen better. You get a better service. You get a better service. That's why people like Starbucks. It's not because Starbucks coffee is any better than Dunkin' Donuts coffee, although it is. It's the service, it's the experience.

C But going there, right? So, we meet the client. I do a no-go, yes-go kind of criteria check when I'm meeting with the client and I walk out of that meeting. I record every one of my initial consultations so long as the client is okay with it, but I try to record it because I do 10, 5, 20 consultations. I don't have time to remember everything from anybody. And I tell them, I don't want you to get the pink color paint when it was somebody else's, right? Like, I don't want you to get that. So they, they like that because, you know, that's one thing we learned. We never like people getting our orders mixed up. Again, Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts, we never want our orders to be mixed up.

C So I always say, I record it. I have my Meta glasses or with my phone. The phone was awkward, so the Meta glasses have made it a little bit better. So there's no awkward— so, and I record it. I bring that to the office, I look at them, I watch the video, I type my contract. I already have a template for my contract. I have different types of templates and contracts. Backing up a little bit, when the client first talks to us, I say, hey, just so you know, Mr.

C Smith, we have 3 levels of services: Ionic, Doric, and Corinthian. Here's a questionnaire "Will you please self-select where you believe you fit in within this atmosphere?" Most people want to be either at the Ionic or the Doric because they think it's too much. That's your average 99% of client. The 1% say, "You know what, it's Corinthian. I don't even want to look at this." So, we look at that intake, at the intake level and say, "Hey, that's a Corinthian level project. I'm excited about it," right? We love all the projects. But that solved one problem, Evelyn. Actually, it solved many problems.

C One problem that it solved was we were competing with licensed people and non-licensed people when we started Flow. So, we were trained because I worked for high-end firms to do Corinthian-level work. They only do Corinthian, big projects. But when you start your own firm, you can't come in with a 20-page contract with Corinthian-level projects for every client. That was like my shotgun, boom, boom, boom, boom. They wouldn't even read those contracts. They don't have that kind of level of sophistication for that. So, that helped us gauge what it would cost and what it would take.

C But Ionic, Doric, and Corinthian are 3 levels of styles, and every column supports the buildings, right, on the Greek classical orders. But the way that they support the buildings is slightly different. So, it made our services, which are very much ambiguous and hard to describe, into Spain made it more materialized, more almost like a commodity, right? Like a product. So, do you think that Corinthian level column costs the same as that Ionic, right? I could have used cars, Lamborghini versus a Mercedes versus a Toyota, but it was more fitting to use a classical level, which you all know. So, we created logos and we created that. So, we would only get a lot of Ionic and Doric, but we created our criteria for when you would move into A Corinthian level. Wait a minute, Mrs. Smith or Mr.

C Smith, at this point you're asking for a detail of the detail of the detail, and that is describing our initial documents and contract as a Corinthian level process. Will you want to proceed with that or no? Right? So early on, we're already cataloging our clients, cataloging our services, and understanding whether it's even worth our time anyway, right? And Remember, the people that build your firm at the beginning and help you, the clients that help you, probably will not be the ones that will get you to the next level. Sometimes you have to take a little cruise to get into a little boat to get into a little bike to get to your destination. So, as a company, we learned, listen, we cannot just rely on Corinthian levels because we're not going to get enough of them. We're not going to get them. So, we did a lot of Ionic and Doric, Ionic and Doric, Ionic and— and we got really good at Ionic and Doric. In fact, we got so good at it that now we're trying to run away from them. So, we're changing our website and our branding so we can continue to attract the Corinthian levels..

C But after that meeting, I can certify or I guess attest to the fact that yes, it is a Corinthian, or yes, it is an Ionic, or yes, it is a Doric. And it's not just the project, Evelyn, it's also the person. It's also the municipality. A project in Somerville, Mass., is not the same as a project in Salem, Mass., no matter what it is. Even a bathroom in Somerville is not the same thing as a bathroom in Salem, right? Or even as a house in Salem. So, we self-select on that. And we explain it. There are municipalities in Massachusetts, I could probably create a map for them, that's an idea, to say red, green, and yellow.

C Any red is going to be a premium price because they're horrible. The permitting process is horrible. And it's not you, it's the way that their bylaws are written, right? So that's pretty good. So that said, I come to the office, I already know it's a Corinthian level or Ionic level. I write my contract, And within my contract, just so you know, we have infused the Framework for Design Excellence as part of our contracts. So, the client can self-select within the 10 principles of the framework which ones they like. I like them to see it and they have a little narrative and I have a nice video. And by the way, every email with me has a nice video like, "Hello, this is Darwin and thank you for working with us." It's like introducing people to us, you know, "Great, you've selected design for communities.

C This means X, Y, and Z." So, there's no surprises. We're managing expectations as we go. And a lot of this also came, Evelyn, because who runs the sport of architectural design more than the architect? We can make the rules. The rules are written on that contract. We make our rules. I mean, there's a standard of care, yeah, being, you know, reasonable and prudent, but the standard of care is no more than what you tell them you're going to do for what you told them you were going to do it. You set up your own standard of care, bigger or smaller. So, that's it.

C We do that and I'm going to move quick. So step one is defined immediately after the contract is signed and everybody is in agreement and a deposit is paid. I select the best candidate for the project and I make an introduction. We have sheets over sheets over sheets of standard emails. Now I guess we're training our chatbots so that they have the standard emails, but immediately Giancarlos knows he's going to kick off the project, set up a kickoff meeting, go to the site, do existing conditions, Move to step 1, we call it define, defining the state of the union, what we all know to be true. This is what we all agree to. We send them the existing survey, whatever it is, go over it. Step 2, envision.

C Envision is a form and a slide, and we like them to fill it out, the form, and to do the slide, and then we meet. And my staff members know, let's look at the contract, let's look at the envision. Because if they're putting something in there that's not on the contract and it's not on the videos and the summary of the videos from the initial consultation, there is a problem. So we got to manage changes before they even happen at the vision stage, right? So they immediately are trained to say, hey, there's items within this list we want to discuss and understand, and some of them will get a follow-up from our office manager as we discuss them because they may not be included within our services. Great, beautiful.

A They're all trained there. Time for a quick break from our sponsor, Gelt. Stop reactive filing, start proactive planning. Gelt provides year-round CPA support with entity and payroll optimization tailored to your firm. Save now at joingelt.com.

B Mention Practice of Architecture for 10% off. I just want to make sure we're not glazing over the fact that they are all— like, every single person in your office, you kind of alluded to it, has this kind of script for them that says when there's a mismatch between the work you're contracted for and what the client is asking, here's what you need to tell the client to expect: a fee change or to have them kind of re-scope their own project.

C Or where they're visioning? We consistently retrain ourselves at the company. And this is part of why I'm writing a book because it really is for us. It's not really, you know, the public will take it. It's probably the same idea of what Art Gensler did when he wrote his book. It wasn't even for the public. It was for themselves. So, but it is, again, ensuring that nobody walks out of the market with more apples than what they actually pay for., right? So, we are loss prevention and that's the analogy I use. Who is loss prevention at Flow? We are all loss prevention at Flow.

C When somebody walks out with a bigger home, a better home that they didn't pay for, you are responsible for that. You are enabling somebody to steal from Flow. In fact, you turned a blind eye on Flow and you are part of it. So, I want to make sure they all know it and they will understand it. You know, I guess it helped that I worked a little bit in banking too, and loss prevention is very important. And I worked in, you know, there are a lot of things that come together as you grow, but they are all trained and we continue to train them and continue to train them because it could happen in so many ways, Evelyn. Sneaking a little change, sneaking that. So they use the word, hey, for this particular change of that door and that window, we'll do a courtesy change.

C But just so you know, Any additional changes will likely incur additional services, and our office manager is going to follow up with you. Even a tiny little thing, just keeping a tab on it, right? Because they can sneak on you. Ambiguity is the enemy of flow. Their clients are purposely ambiguous. They're ambiguous because ambiguity gives them the chances of not knowing how many apples really walked out, right? Like, oh, it was so fluid. It happened on the go. We record all of our meetings. We record all of our meetings, Zoom meetings, in-person meetings, and we track them.

C You say X, Y, and Z. We said X, Y, and Z. Here's what it is. It's been very helpful for us in business to protect from liability, to protect from matters, from any accusation. It's protected us very much. Everybody else does it. All of these bigger companies do it. Why don't we do it? So of course, with their consent.

C So step 1, that's it. Step 2, that's it, envision. Step 3 is the actual design options. We only give them 2. I do more than 2, but I only give them 2. So, option 1 is everything that they wanted exactly as they wanted it, unless there's a code violation or zoning violation that we got to make them aware of. And that, you know, I pride myself on listening, our company prides on listening. So, even if it's something completely pathetic, we show it to them and say, look, because what's in your head as a client, You know, you think, oh yeah, the mother room should be here, the offices should be here.

C I think it's a great idea. Well, here's what it is. Oh yeah, you're right. It's not how I thought it through. But we want to make sure we listen because that's what clients go into. You didn't listen to me. I'm going to refuse to pay to you because you didn't listen to me, right? So, we're like, no, here it is. Option 2 is that on steroids.

C It's the lessons learned and the fact that we know better. Again, not all clients are created equal. We're protecting for the worst-case scenario. But there are clients that are literally autonomous in the sense that you drive, you are the architect, I love you, I hired you for that reason. We love those clients. But there are a lot of knuckleheads ones that think that they know better because they watched HGTV last night and they came up with a great idea, you know? So, and we show them the idea and the idea is horrible. So, the option 2 is that on steroids. It's a little bit more sophisticated.

C It's a little bit more elaborate. It's kind of what you pay me for. We do other options and our director of design meets with every designer to discuss the approach. Everybody here, by the way, designs their projects. I don't want anybody to be my pencil, so I do not design anything. Our director of design doesn't even design their project. He guides them. It's like a design studio crit.

C Hey, you should probably evaluate X, you should probably evaluate Y. And that has helped us a lot. Because there's one single director of design that kind of knows the vision of the company and can steer them a little bit while they still retain autonomy, agency, and empowerment. So, you know, we're a very inclusive company, but only those that really, you know, Darwinian to that end, right? Like the stronger survive. So, that said, it's the same way with the options, the design options. There's a lot that we do and we save them. When client says, have you tried X? We're like, oh, I'm glad you asked. Here's what it is.

C We do not want to share that with you because it wasn't adequate. But we did it because clients sometimes want us to exhaust all possibilities. But our contract only says two options. If you want me to explore that, it would incur an additional service, and our office manager is going to follow up with you.

B So that's how we go.

C It sounds like you have a very busy office manager. Very much. And it's ironic because she doesn't even exist. She or he doesn't even exist, right? So there is no office manager. It's really an email that we enacted so that we protect our staff members from the subjects and the attitude and the atmosphere changes when you talk money. Oh, why is that costing more? It gets pretty nasty. Business is nasty, you know. If you didn't want to sign up for that, like, don't get into business, you know.

C So what we did was let's create this invisible office manager and let's train our staff to just give sprinkles and nuggets of the idea that it will cost additional so that they do not become, you know, it doesn't become predatory. And the redesign process, why our company is called Flow, is fluid. We do not want the design process to be rigid and to be bumpy. We'd rather take that on. And really, the office manager is Marcos, is me, is Wandy, and is everybody else because we got the access to the email, you know, and we, you know, yep, send that email, looks good, send them that, send the change order. When that's paid, you proceed. Do not release the drawings until they are paid. Don't do that, right? So, everything, everybody here is trained and I love it because everybody's kind of preaching the same.

C It's like, you know, we're in alignment and I love that about Flow right now as a company. We've gone through some turnover, but the people that remain really get it, right? So, that's beautiful. So, that protects us. What we realize is that when we look at the budget, and this is a very important part, we didn't have a way of tracking how much we were making and We knew we were making money because we were profitable at the end of the year, but we didn't know what project was a great, what project was a bad one. So about 2 years ago we said, hey, we got to quantify the cost of our services so that we know whether we're overcharging or undercharging. Because also there was a sense of being disposable, quick and cheap kind of mentality that could creep on you when you're only doing Ionic and Doric projects for clients that are developers that don't really value design and care about it. So we said, And it wasn't me. It was really a tough talk with Julio Gutierrez, the director of design.

C When he came to our desk and said, "Hey, let's have a meeting." And I was like, "What?" We went to the conference room and he said, "Listen, I am sensing—" He's the director of design. He sees all the designs. "I am sensing and feeling that our clients do not appreciate us, do not appreciate our services, and do not appreciate what we bring to the table. And I believe it has to do with our fees." Although I don't have access to the fees of other offices, I think our fees are telling me— when you say, "Well, you're too busy," it means you're too cheap, right? The fact that everybody's flocking, calling us, harassing us, being almost disrespectful, you know, "I need my plans. I need my permit. What's going on?" That already tells me that these people are really underpaid. So, we looked at that and he said, "And," and this was the deal breaker, "and "I don't want a raise and I don't want money. I want Float to succeed.

C What I want is that if our prices are too low and things are not really how they should be, if you want to go that path, go, but I'm not in it. I'm out. I want us to value architecture and I want us to value design." And I was like, "Oh, shoot. I don't want to lose our director of design." Not only because he's our director of design, but because I love the guy and I've known him forever.. But he's not even asking for anything that wouldn't be better for the entity. It's better for the company. So, we got Monograph and our fees have gone up because we realized, yes, it's true, we were undercharging. And some of our clients, current clients, were like, "Oh my goodness, that's a lot of money." And I was like, "Yeah, that's what we should have charged you for the last 5 years." You know? They went on with somebody else, some of them, and then they came back..

C And I always remember Daniel Target, grown-ups come back. We put a note, me and Julio put a note for all the clients that said that we were too expensive and we said they're going to come back. And we laughed every time we saw the phone call. We're like, yes, we did it. Because it took the fear away. It dignified our services and our profession. And we're able to give people raises and treat them well and keep them here and only work until 5:30, from 9 to 5:30. So, you see, answering the question to your initial problem, It's all about management.

C It's all about being conscientious that every line— yeah, it says it— every line we draw is a source of good for the world. Good has a price. You have to peg your services and peg it almost like a stablecoin, peg it to something that adds value. So sometimes we also looked at our buildings and the worth of our services and say, wait a minute, I designed that home that you bought for $300,000 and now it's worth $2 million. Shouldn't my services be worth something related to that end product? And we started looking at that and becoming a bit— they didn't like it. A lot of our investors didn't like that, but we need to peg our services to the value that they generate. They generate value, therefore they mean something. And this is one that I use on my book and it's, well, if I draw a map to a treasure that has billions of dollars of gold, how much is that map worth? Right? You can't get to the gold without the map.

C So, peg it to it. Is it 10% of that? Is it 20% of that? It's almost a 1-to-1, honestly. The map is almost as valuable as the treasure, right? Now, in our services, every line is a source of good and it's worth money. But check this out. When drawn correctly, when drawn correctly, it almost feels like it was naturally done. It came from heaven and it's amazing and that was the way it was supposed to be. It looks so easy and disposable. It almost looks like that little drawing.

C I don't like people using, "It's a little sketch. It's a little..." Don't little my services. Don't ever little anything. There's a lot of diminutive words that they use. But if it's drawn incorrectly, how much is it worth? Right? It's worth a lot after you drew it incorrectly. That stair that was supposed to be 3 feet clear and it's 2 foot 5, that's like $50,000 on reframing. Who pays for it? Okay? So, you know, the fact that it should be right and it is right, you know, don't undermine it from what it actually is worth. And I'm trying to preach that to everybody at Flow and also within the book.

C Like, Make sure that we understand the value of our services. The value of our services is huge. It's huge. And when you meet architects as developers, that's when you really see it. You're like, oh boy, they get permits quicker, they get better projects done. Architects as developers and design-builders is like a magic trick, you know, when done well, when done correctly, right? Because that's another thing. Processes help us, you know, maintain us consistent. We're done and we know when we're done.

C Because I did what I said I was going to do, how I was going to do it, and when I was going to do it. And anything other than that costs you more money to pay me for it.

B So then that's, that's kind of the full circle idea of flow, you know, how we work. So the other thing I wanted to revisit, because you talk— you and I talked about this previously, was you learn, you are continuously learning and updating those processes.

C So I struggle with two things with architecture firms. Right. I just got these 3 books.

B I just got them, you know, always learning, always. So one, I've never really worked in an architecture firm with as systematic processes that you have set up. So time-consuming to set up, arguably. But two, if I ever did work in a firm that had any type of process, those processes were never revisited. So how do you keep it like— obviously you just held up 3 books in front of the camera, but how do you ensure that you keep it busy and you like— how do you ensure that you keep it updated and you are the partner so you don't have to convince the partner it needs to be updated?

C But like, what is, what is the importance of all of that to you? You know, so it goes down to 2 things and it was a lesson learned from the pandemic. So I teach at the Boston Architectural College and a lot of the classes I had, I had to kind of record them. And I started recording classes and recording classes on YouTube with my own gaming softwares and Zoom self-recording. And then I thought, "Well, what's going on with this? This is something." So, this solves a problem already and is the problem that it's actually a fear of mine. I'll give you a secret right there. I share a secret. My biggest fear is to wake up with amnesia and forget everything I have ever known. And because of that big fear of waking up and not knowing anything, I said, "Well, I should probably record everything." So, I started creating manuals and recordings of everything.

C So, people at Flow here say, "Hey, how do you open that?" Immediately, Ry or somebody at the office says, "There probably is a video. Check our library. There's probably a video on that." And yeah, there is a video on that. How to scan, how to do this. I have made videos on how to make coffee in our coffee machine. One of them broke, so we got to do another one with the new one. But it's because, Evelyn, that solves a couple of problems. One is the fear of mine of forgetting everything I know and not knowing, but the other one is providing freedom to me as an individual, as a father, as a husband, right? I want to go to Hawaii and not have to think about Flow for a minute, please, right? And also, why is Flow called Flow? It's Flow because we didn't want it to be Fortunas and Severino and Darwin.

C No, we want a legacy. And how could you leave a legacy if you don't train the staff and you don't create a pipeline where you are inclusive, you are equitable, you are diverse, but you are offering them the opportunity to develop their superpowers? So that training system became essential for us. Now you see everybody talking about SOPs, and I love it. And I'm like, I've been having SOPs before. I've been having all these kinds of things before they even were taught, you know. Now I'm making it stronger, Evelyn, because not everybody watches my videos. Nobody ever watched. You know what, honestly, the fact that you tell— and Art Gensler says it on his book— you, you think you tell somebody something once and you think they're gonna do it.

C No, you gotta hammer it down. So I've made it very clear, you are not going to grow a Flow Design Architects unless you go into all of those videos, like, share, and subscribe, and comment,. And there is a playlist for everybody, playlist for how to write contracts, playlist for how to do existing conditions, for how to do the fine. And to me, it was the most joyful thing when I called the office with another accent. I play accents and I had an Indian accent and I called the office pretending to be a client and someone randomly picked up the phone and that person, right, answered every one of the questions in the way that I have trained people to answer the questions and They created an— dude, now you've taught them how to fish. You didn't give them fish. I could just disappear and we'll do a blackout moment where I probably will disappear and they'll have to fend for themselves. Write a contract, send an invoice, figure it out.

C There's a video on it. Please go ahead and do it. You know, that's how I can go to leadership summit, AIA National, be on events because these systems have become part of our survival method. And I'll be frank, They won't grow unless they watch my videos because I won't vote for any racist within the company. I won't vote for anything, nothing. I'm getting very much tough on that because those were countless hours of trainings I've made, countless. And I know there's people that don't learn like that. I get it.

C But at least watch it. Tell me you watched it, you didn't understand it. That's good. We can start there. But you haven't even watched it? No, I'd rather talk to Evelyn Lee right now. Watch my videos. You know? And that's how I do it. I want to do more.

C I want to reward. So we have employee of the quarter, we have all kinds of rewards. Maybe I'll create a little fun and every time you watch a playlist, you get a $50, you know, something. Because again, it's enabling me to grow and to walk away from Flow. Marcus is going to have a baby in 3 months. He's going to be out. We need some other people to step up. You know, he brings 50% of the revenues.

C I bring about 50% of the revenues. We need somebody else to continue bringing the revenues. So it is really an opportunity for them to continue to grow and thrive. And with AI, things are getting more sophisticated. Complicated because now those playlists and those trainings can turn into an app. I won't say much about that, but, and they can continue to evolve to the point where now you have a database. Hey, you know, we have checklists now are turning into menus, similar project like this. It's like an intranet, right? Oh, wow, we've done 500 ADUs, 500 ADUs attached, 500 ADUs detached, 500 ADUs in the attic.

C Have we done any in Salem? Let's take a look at it, right? And it basically is making our services and our work so much easier, so much easier. You know, now we're not in survival mode. Now we're, you know, 9 years in business. Now we're in thriving mode. And now it's just, you know, the next steps for Flow is really to go viral, to have Flow shops in California, Flow offices in Miami. Yeah, we have one in the Dominican Republic already. So, it's like, Let's, let's spread the gospel, right? And continue to innovate, be disruptors, which is the name of this, right? Be disruptors.

B You know, eventually everybody else going to catch on. So the other important thing is that you are constantly also learning though, because you mentioned that monograph kind of enabled you to clearly see that you were undercharging. You also mentioned that you record all of your meetings, but you in this conversation alluded to you record all your meetings So it's just you have a recording for you and the client, but you also talk to me about the fact that you go back and you learn so much from your own videos that you're recording. Talk to me about a little bit about that process and how you—

C you're essentially teaching yourself and creating new lessons for yourself to continue to grow. I'm a geek when it comes to psychology. I love psychology. I love people and reactions, and I love trying to find the best words. I wish I had more time in a day and I didn't have to sleep so I could continue to learn. But when we first started recording all of these videos, I mean, I'm an architect, I'm a licensed architect. All of this is under my responsible control. So, I wanted to go back to those recordings and I would do that as I was driving and listening and see what was the reaction when I said, you know, this is on the setbacks or, hey, were within the limits of the heights, or how could I say that a little bit better? Like, it was on every reaction to the client.

C How did they feel? Or what? It's not even how did they feel. I could mute it and look at it and be like looking at their faces and saying, oh my goodness, that was horrible. Like, that face told me more than anything they would ever said. Because you know that most of the communication happens nonverbal. Like, you don't even know. So, you know, and again, I'm a geek on all of these different things. You know, and I read a book, I think it was John Maxwell, that said, you know, like, you can know which ones were going to get divorced out of the couples by looking at videos without seeing, hearing their voices. You would see those couples probably were going to, and they got divorced.

C It's like some studies in science and psychology that showed the interaction told me everything I needed to know about these people. So I thought, I watch those videos and go back to them, and it's mostly as a way of saying, "Hey, that wasn't a good reaction," or maybe, "How could we do that differently?" And I think that's kind of like a lesson learned from my gaming. I used to play a lot of games and I would record the games and look at it, trying to defeat the beast. And I'm like, "Dude, like when I kneel down, the beast comes on top of me. When I do this," and then Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+Z. So honestly, Evelyn, if you could relive an experience over and over and do it better, And it also relates to a movie with Nicolas Cage where he could see up to like certain minutes ahead and he, you know, he would go back to it. I think the movie's called Next. And I was like, I love that.

C I'm obsessed with that. Like, if you could do that again, how could you do it? You know? And I'm doing that again. I have other businesses other than Flow that have been flourishing way faster than Flow because if I could do that again, how could I do it? I already have a recipe for what worked and what didn't. So, I know what, you know, I have a daycare now.. And that daycare in 5 months got more reviews and more followers than Flow in 9 years because I know what works and I know what doesn't. There are things that you virtually could do. It doesn't matter how hard you work. Hard work is not even the question, right? But honestly, like the wrong thing over and over will always bring you nothing.

C The right thing over and over will compound over time and continue to grow. So continue to help you. So that has helped there. I have Airbnbs, the way I market them, the way I organize them, the systems I have in place, the automations I've created. I don't even look at the thing. Sends a message to the cleaning lady, the cleaning lady goes clean, the guy comes in. It's really good, bro. I'm free and I'm making money as I'm talking to Evelyn Lee.

C This is awesome. This is awesome. You got to do it over and over again. And then What does that do? There are things I cannot automate. Giving a hug to DJ, saying I love you to Emmeline and Eviana, watching a nice movie and eating apple pie with ice cream, that sort of thing with them. I cannot automate that.

B But the rest, the rest could be let go of so that you can do more of that. So, I want to end with one last question. It's been such a great conversation talking with you. You're highly involved with the AIA. You have a Young Architect Award. You just talked about 3 other businesses that I don't think we fully knew existed until just now, and that's not even everything that you've taken on. What do you want the next generation of architects who are listening to this episode to know about what's possible?

C Before this call, I had a call with a student that's looking into, into architecture as a possibility, and she didn't know if it was the right path or the right thing to her. She didn't know. She was just lost. She doesn't know where to go, right? Where to take her career. She's young, she's energetic, she's passionate, but she doesn't know. So, what I told her was, and this answers your question, I guess, as a segue. What I told her was, there are days that I wake up and I feel like I'm not an architect and I have imposter syndrome. There are days where I wake up and I'm like, I don't draw, I don't sketch.

C People think of me this way, but I'm not like that. I'm actually more of the business side. I'm more of the systems and practice and connector of people. But then I realized that I am my one kind of architect. I am my one kind of architect, and I have my own kind of firm. So, what I've learned is to put away that imposter syndrome and say, "There's just nobody else like us. There's nobody else like me." So, to that next generation, I really, really welcome them to try random weird things that they can only think of, that only happens to them. Great businesses have grown out of weird things that only some random people thought about, that only they care about, and then suddenly, like solving a problem for where to sleep like Airbnb or, you know, Uber and Lyft, and so just solving some random problems that people thought you were crazy about, like that you're crazy, that's never going to work.

C So I would say architects need to start now not just wearing other people's hats, but creating their own hat. You yourself, Evelyn, you are your own kind of an architect, your own distinguished individual that some people may agree or disagree, but it's only your own skin to live in. It's your own skin to live in. It's your own legacy to live in, right? I know as former president of AIA, you may have had some pushback, and this is not even about you, I'm telling you, you are your own kind of architect and you've taught them what's possible within your own skin. But it takes discipline, hard work, dedication, celebrating the little lessons, the little victories. It's a bundle of different things. And then you become your own and you get to then, I guess I can go full circle, you get to dance as though nobody's watching. You are free.

C And your kids will love you for it. The legacy continues and you really get to say, wow, I lived a life I wanted to live, right? It does take time to get there, right? From approvals and when you're young and where you come from, and then eventually all of that stuff quiets down and you're like, wow, you are your own kind of architect. So that's gonna— what's that gonna do? Your own kind of practices, your kind of businesses, your kind of ecosystems. You're gonna serve a world out there that needs you desperately, but that they don't know you because you haven't given them the service. You haven't given them the opportunity, the business opportunity, you know. So it's a disgrace for humanity if you don't wear your own skin and challenge the preconceived ideas of what you're supposed to be.

A Hi, disruptors! Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is Practice of Arch. That's Practice of A-R-C-H. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.