Technology & Change

A I'm Evelyn Lee, and I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore the industry is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to practice disrupted. Hi, listeners. so this this episode is focused on technology and change, and I'm really excited about our next guest speaker Nell's long because he comes from an interesting practice. and I actually met him while I was trying to find speakers for the practice innovation lab. And I was looking for people that were practicing

C differently. And you both have a few things in common. Like, you both went to.

B Yeah. It was a, Nell's graduated after me. I I don't actually think we had very much official. I don't think we had any overlap, to be fair. But the interesting evolution of sci arc is that it brought Nell's Turoto architects. So Nell's Nell's works for Michael Rotendy who runs Revoto Architects. He's also one of the original co founders of Cyarc and actually served as, for 10 years as a second director of Cyric from 1987 to

A 1997.

B Nell's is the one of the co founders of a spin off that uses a lot of technology that comes out of Roto Architects called RotoLab, which is an innovation studio for cross sector innovation in architecture And Real Estate. So today, we wanted to talk about technology because We see it as one of the predominant disruptors to why the industry is changing, and we thought Nell's had an interesting perspective on this topic to share. I'm hoping that he'll talk about the variety of different ways that architects can use technology both as a tool or as a means to create new service lines for firms that they've actually put to practice. so it it'll be interesting to see to see his take on technology, in both kind of the simplest ways that firms can innovate around it as well as some far reaching ideas that Rodolab is really exploring right now.

C So my understanding is Rodol Architect focuses on the design of buildings. What does RotoLab focus on? So I

B I think I'm gonna leave that to know to re to respond to. RotoLab grew out of a certain necessity to, I feel like, play around or even prototype more, relative to Roto Architects. Roto Architects is also interesting in its itself. Michael Rotendo refers to it as a, you know, a a teaching Studio. and I hope Nell shares about that as well, but a lot of the work that they do is actually work. It's not private work, and they do that in collaboration with a lot of organizations. And it was it's through these collaborations that they've actually identified new and unusual ways to apply or reimagine how they apply technology to their practice. What aspects of technology do you see changing in our industry? Well, that's is it is it interesting how you pose that question because there's, you know, I think there's a disruptive force coming out from outside of our industry, the the ceteras of the world, for instance, that we need to keep an eye on or be a part of or integrate.

B But I also think there's even smaller tools that we can use to increase our productivity and our ability to, to deliver projects. The quickest example would be any new tool a firm adopted to work remotely over the last 2 months. I list I sat in at a CEO forum where an owner of a rather large firm said, you know, if we to have gone through the usual pass, who would have had a task force to talk about remote work, to look at tools. And then 2 years later, they'd probably still be where they are now. So how do we build in the agility to look at tools that other industries are already using on a regular basis? and see, say, how can this help my firm? So I feel like there's smaller things that we might be overlooking because we aren't taking the chance to explore them. And then there's larger opportunities that we're just not seeing because we don't think broadly enough alternatively.

C Yeah. And Evelyn, I think You have such a unique perspective on this topic because you're working for a leading tech company that's doing things from an innovation standpoint. And you have access to a lot of things that most architecture firms don't. I'm assuming you can probably see some of the gaps between where An industry like technology is versus an industry like architecture is. I would imagine there are some interesting observations you could make?

B Yeah. I mean, so a really great simple example of that was I got a laptop, my first day, right, of work. So I was completely mobile to begin with. I think people have struggled with that even through the transition. But what people, what really got me excited at a very dorky level was the fact that I didn't have There was several different applications that I didn't have on my laptop. One of them being the Adobe suite And and I was used to, like, okay. Now I'm gonna have to build a business case. I'm gonna have to send I don't know, send a letter.

B I'm gonna have to have 5 meetings. I have

C to make them financial arguments.

B Right. And granted I work at a technology firm that that's the idea of spending extra money on an additional license. It doesn't weigh as heavily as a smaller medium firm, but I sent in a help desk ticket And literally 10 minutes later, they installed it on my machine. So It just removed a lot of headache and processes that I think we've unnecessarily overlaid in architecture firms that We don't need to spend our time on that. That we don't make money spending time on allocating software license to people. So how do we how do we automate that process? So we can spend more time where we make more money. And and another thing that we use is this whole idea of a single sign on SSO, which is widely used, right, in the technology industry because they can allocate they can they can take away and revoke your rights to any system across your computer, like, instantly. Right? Like, if I were to leave my firm tomorrow, they get rid of my will sign on, and I can no longer access any of our other software tools as I can today.

B I think if some IT people in firms today or if some people that who wear the hat of the the dual, the multiple hats that include the IT person in their office, think about, like, what it takes to decommission a computer or to make sure that they taken back all the access that they've given to employees, like, even that becomes a much larger process.

C As you're describing your IT team, I'm remembering different scenarios that typically play out in architecture firms around technology. including the remote consultant that a firm might work with on a month to month basis that usually comes in for emergencies. Or in a few instances, I've seen an architect or designer actually play the dual role as the designated technology person, and they end up being responsible for setting up the computers for new hires. and then also having to get drawings done. And then, of course, there's the large firm model where they have a designated technology department which can range from a small team to a large network of people across the firm. And in that case, of course, they have more resources than a small and medium firm. But I find it interesting to think about the ways in which architecture firms are designing the people resources that they're putting around technology. Yeah.

B That is really interesting. I didn't even I mean

A --

B Yes. And if Nell's doesn't touch on that, maybe there's another episode for us in season 2. So what do you wanna get out of this conversation with Nell's? So, Nell's brings a really interesting case study as a practice that is doing different things with technology and looking at how to implement technology differently. And I'll probably say it multiple times throughout this. You know, I I kind of fed up with the fact that the first words that come to mind when architects think about technology is Revit, CAD, BIM, VR AI at a very limited scale, by the way, because the applications that AI are so much more tremendous than how architects even think about it. But those are our go to technology responses, and I feel like we are missing on on big we are missing out on bigger and better opportunities, but we're also missing out on small things that can increase our productivity, and accelerate just our our ability to to do things on a daily basis too is I'm hoping that he brings to light kind of, like, a variety of those all those things and and talks a little bit about how firms can consider bringing those technologies in house.

C So Nell's long is our guest today, and he is a sire grad from 2014. And now is as a designer, strategist, and educator with a passion for projects that seem to improve the world through a relationship between technology and the built environment. As an associate principal at roto architects, Nelson's worked on projects at numerous scales from single family homes and commercial spaces to large civic projects and master plans. His approach to practice innovation studio, Rodolab, through Rodolab, Nell's has co founded companies that each focus on a different relationship between architecture, technology, and neuroscience, specifically focusing on learning through virtual experiences, virtual tooling, and social and competitive spaces for virtual experiences in games. That's really interesting.

B Let's hope he touches on that.

C I know. It sounds exciting. Let's listen to the interview.

B Open up the conversation by telling us a little bit about yourself and the type of practice that red architecture is.

D Yeah. Great. Well, thanks, guys. I met Michael Rotundi in

A 2012

D when I started at sciarc as a post professional candidate in the emerging systems technology and media program, And Michael was teaching a a course on, the role that video games play, in in design, in, you know, a as a as a new, as a new frontier for architects as a new scope of work for designers as a new tool for influencing our textual design. And through our, like, I took 3 or

A 4

D courses from him during that time, we began to outline a possible future for architectural practice that was more based in the startup world that was more based around projects as opposed to companies and careers. And we focused on, a couple technology solutions initially this was right at the very beginning of virtual reality becoming available commercially we were still working with the dev kit 1 for the Oculus rift at that point. Vive had not come out yet. and we were look we're building a a a program called second studio, which grew out of my thesis project at Cyarc, which essentially was virtual reality design tools and collaboration software for for members of architecture, engineering, construction, which is now available open source on get and I'm sure that these ladies can make that link available at some point. So so that was really the basis of our of our of our collaboration, the the foundation of our practice together. And and through that process, And through subsequent ventures that we undertook, we began to define an alternative practice for architecture that was more disruptive and began to challenge the norm of what architects are expected to respond to types of services they're expected to offer time frames they're expected to work under, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And so that's really where I come from, in entering into the conversation today is having spent better part of the last 10 years developing alternative practice, out of our LA office and and now, establishing a new presence in a new office in Northern California based out of Sonoma County looking to take advantage of all of the opportunities they're here. and leveraging our our connections in Los Angeles as well.

B Great. So tell us a little bit about kind of the evolution, I, I guess, of roto architects And, you know, you've said that you didn't work. Like, you've never really worked in a traditional practice. So how would how would you define middle architects now? I guess.

D It's kind of an inside joke among, our our our team members is that roto architects is the traditional firm and roto is where we do all the fun stuff. And that's that's not exactly fair because we we do a lot of fun stuff in in both. Rotolab is more focused on technology and on more out of the box solutions, again, kind of following that startup mindset of pursuing individual ventures. Roto Architects has been for the majority of its of its lifetime been a, a teaching practice. a finishing school in a sense for, young people that are coming out of graduate school, that are either not ready to start their own firms or or, you know, it's it's really a a it's a mentoring space for people like Michael and his his partners and the and my fellow principals and I to get to test out some ideas in the same way that you would in an architectural studio at school. And it's very heavily driven by narrative. It's very heavily driven by storytelling, and and really developing a personal connection with the client, developing a personal collaboration with the client and all the stakeholders. And and through that process, we've, we've delivered some pretty amazing, what I would consider traditional projects, traditional sense that there's a contractor, and there's a there's a host of consultants, and there's a client or 2 and you know, we go through the same project delivery processes as, as any other firm in the country.

D But we we bias that process towards the conceptual, at every step. And oftentimes, sacrifice or assume some additional risk in order to further that mentality. So so roto architects, which was founded in 1991, has always been, focused on providing architectural solutions to, for for nonprofit organizations for the underrepresented for native peoples and for school districts and organizations that or philanthropic organizations and so forth. We have our large civic projects. We have our large commercial projects, but we Our our sweet spot is really in serving that underrepresented community.

B So Rodolab was kind of the the the idea that you and Mike talk Michael talked about kind of incarnate then, like, playing out in in parallel with a radar architecture. Why did you make the active distinction to make them 2 different things. Like, why did you feel that was necessary? Has that been helpful? Has that been hurtful?

D I think it's it's all of the above and and none of the above. I mean, it's so we still find ourselves in a situation where we are justifying its existence. Like, you know, well, why don't we just do this under the umbrella of Roto Architects? Why do we need a separate entity? and really the the reason why RotorLab has persisted as a as a legal entity as a separate company not as a department or as a team within roto architects is it has provide it's provided a a legal medium for Michael and and my collaboration and the collaboration of other contributors that have have worked on our ventures. And so, it is in its primary form and equity sharing device that allows for us to develop sweat equity relationships with other contributors, whether they're neuroscientists or they are interaction designers or musical instrument designers or composers or or whatever their domain of expertise is, they are working towards some stake in Rotolab, and that has really freed us up to get away from a fee based organization. ARC architects typically you know, they they only do work for fees. And so what we've been exploring and and more so in the last, you know, 3, 4 months or so since the stay at home mandate and pandemic and all that stuff is leveraging other financial, devices that are available to us to keep work moving forward even when there's no money. And one of those is is, equity sharing and profit sharing and roto lab. being a separate company allows for us to have a partner or a principal type relationship with people that are not licensed in cross sector, multi domain setting, in a way that an architecture firm could not.

D So that's that's become its primary role. is really as that, collaboration device.

B So, you know, I I have this this kind of thing that that I cringe about, especially being an a technology firm that when architects talk about technology, it's usually centered is very specifically about Revit or BIM or VRN AI in a very limited capacity. You know, Nelsie and I've had of conversations and kind of how architects should be leveraging technology further. So from from kind of a even a basic standpoint of of you know, you were talking about Jira and other, Zoho and other forms of technology, what do you think architects should be investigating more these days in terms of tech like, technological applications to their practice.

D I think the kind of the holy grail, in technology for the design field at this point is unlocking the power of the gig economy in a way that the software industry has. the gig economy, being rideshare drivers, software programmers, people that can, as free agents contribute to, some product or some service, on a case by case basis, on a project basis, on a on time basis without becoming, a long term dependent upon that company and that company's financial resources. And that is, you know, that's largely beneficial to both parties to the, to the company that their, that the work is is being done through and to the, the free agent It gives them a lot of freedom. And oftentimes, free agents, you know, they make a lot more money because, they're not tied to this excessive one firm or another, they're they're able to negotiate their own rates. And there's been a a number of products that have, attempted to do this. There's a paper that came out of Stanford 2 years ago that was looking at gig economy for for design professions. The the problem with design professions is unlike, programming or or Uber driving is that it's it it really requires a robust institutional knowledge, of that firm, of that firm style of of the people that they're working with, of the client, of the jurisdiction. And so solutions that have been proposed to to create networks of of project based employees as opposed to companies that take on multiple projects, companies of people that take on multiple projects.

D require almost like a almost like a film production company, this level of commitment, this level of research and subscription to the institutional, approach to aesthetics and and and community values and things like that. And so so I think that's really the that's that's really the direction that everyone is working towards, whether they they honestly know it or not. I mean, I I know you just mentioned you don't really wanna talk about Revit, but I think that's one of the things that Autodesk is is really striving for through Auto Desk 360, BIM 360, whatever it's called, the, the cloud based BIM, the ability for, a multinational integrated project delivery teams that include stakeholders, and contractors and subcontractors, and everybody working as 1, the ability to share building information models across the cloud and and having people contribute in their area of expertise, without needing necessarily to understand, and comprehend the product as a whole. I mean, that's that's one of the tools that is going to facilitate a a more, decentralized workforce within the architectural community. I think what is very ironic about that. However, is that the the tool that allows for that type of production to happen is most often cost prohibited to the people who could benefit from it the most. there's been a number of of, ventures, projects, proposals that have come before us that look at ways in which, groups of of people can, in essence, unionize to to create a a union of of, designers, a union in the architects, and and share technological resources, share Revit libraries, share company benefits, health benefits, and whatnot that they aren't getting because they aren't a member of firm. And in in some ways, starting to get some of the benefits of the people that are working production companies for film and and whatnot within the architecture community.

D I think that's gonna be really interesting, and that's a it's a whole new frontier of of architectural technology that hasn't really been explored yet is the the human condition and the ability to to level up on, the way that our teams are decentralized. We haven't spoken yet. I assume it's gonna come up at some point about the effects of working from home. the effects of COVID nineteen on the architectural profession, the architectural business community, but we're we're seeing, a lot of firms kind of meeting people halfway in this regard and saying, well, you want, you know, you want to be able to live where you wanna live and spend time with your family and you know, have all the benefits of a gig worker while still being a member of a professional organization. And a lot of firms, my firm included, has agreed that that's the the best course for its employees. I mean, once this lifts, we don't have mandatory office hours any longer as as long as your work is getting done, it doesn't matter where you are. There needs to be some face to face time. We've mandated a certain amount of face FaceTime just because it's imperative for for collaboration that you have some physical interaction, which I think we're all experiencing the lack of today.

D You know, so I think there's a a huge foundation that's being developed towards empowering the the architectural gig economy just as kind of a test case through this stay at home mandate.

B Yeah. So there's a, you know, there's a lot of things to unpack there, I think. One of my questions because this the title of this going in was actually kind of risk and technology. And I feel like what you are talking about means that, I I mean, architects have been historically known to not want to share anything. Right? So how does that really, or where do we need to take our mindset to kind of open up a project to the get, like, a project to the gig economy. And how do we change that mindset? I don't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts on on that, but kind of this whole the risk adverse, I I mean, I I think is, like, relative to getting sued, but it for me, it's his historically, it's been interesting to see how little firms actually tell their employees let alone, like, how much they're going to be willing to share, so that more people can be interactive on a model.

D Yeah. I think it's a great point. There's there's been a an extreme amount of mistrust, and I think a huge portion of it is a is a generational problem. for for whatever reason, preceding generations have an inherent mistrust for the ones that come after. And with the I don't know any other way to say it. Sometimes we can come out and say it. with the ego situation that we have in the architectural community, I feel like that's only amplified. what we've experienced through our practice, which we do define as a teaching practice, which we we do define as a collaborative practice.

D is that there is a huge amount of trust that is gained both within the organization and without by opening up those barriers and being more transparent across across the process. Obviously, we have some pro protocols in place in order to protect ourselves from a legal standpoint. However, more often than not our initial action upon receiving a request for a proposal, is to look for another architecture firm that's either local to the project or that shares some expertise in that particular scope. and and reach out and request, a partnership for that project. And so there the the the vast majority of the projects that we do we do either through joint venture or through partnership with another architect. And that is partly how we are able to continue to provide innovative designs and solutions to some extremely complex problems. And I think the more that architecture as a profession gets away from the concept of I, the architect, and more towards the the understanding of us as the architectural community and and begins to take advantage of some of these technological platforms that that we've mentioned like Zoho projects or or Jira or some of these other collaboration platforms that were originally intended for for for app development, but which can be ported over to architectural design very easily. starting to look at how we have a single informational resource that combines our in house team, all of our consulting teams, our partner architect teams, our contractor, our client, and all the various stakeholders, where there are tasks assigned to each one, and there are dependencies assigned to each task.

D and everyone understands everyone's role, we we start to get to a point where sharing knowledge is at is is gaining power and influence. and as architects, our role in the project process is as much control in the flow of information as as delivering a final design and and by sharing more, in our experience, anyway, we've had more more control over that final product.

B Yeah. And they never actually thought about this until you've mentioned shouldn't it, but how much of a culture shift kind of the adoption of all these new technologies is going to fully require. I mean, it's it's one thing for us to be entirely remote right now, you know, and and talk about what that does to culture, but kind of the underlying shifts in terms of, you know, just the amount of ownership we want over anything or the responsibilities that we're willing to give to other team members, I think, is is going to be interesting, but necessary to to make use of these technology like, technology developments.

D Proto Labs was exploring a, a venture, with, a couple partners a few years back, for a kind of following this idea of a a union of architectural designers as an online network that at its very core was based off of a transition away from the firm receiving credit for a project to the contributors receiving credit for a project. And so in the same way when you go on to IMDB, the internet movie database and you you look up. Someone give me an example, movie. the Beautiful day in the neighborhood, the Mister Rogers movie. Right? And then it it shows all of the it shows all of the the people who contributed all the all the credits, the, you know, the the stars, Tom Hanks, and the various people that were that were in it all the way down to people who have lighting,

B the

D lighting, and the sound, and the editing, and and and etcetera. And then if you click on let's let's say that you go down to the key grip. Right? And you click on his or her name, it's gonna give you a whole list of movies that they were involved in. And there's no shame in sharing credit to with everybody that's involved, everybody that when when a movie gets an Oscar, everybody on that movie team gets an Oscar for their respective role, and we don't do that in architecture. And so this this platform, it was called party with us. I was developing that with, Elizabeth Wendell and Aaron Gensler out of LA. it's still something that's kind of on the back burner, but we've we've all become busy with other things. the the premise for that was developing a an online and internet architecture database.

D the same way that we have an internet movie database where you could click on your favorite project, and you could see your the entire project team that contributed to it and who they're working for at the time. and who they're working for now and if they're available or not. And you could theoretically contact one of those people. Like, let's say the project manager was working for this other firm at the time, but now they have their own firm. You can contact them and say, hey. I love what you did there. Can you do something like that for me? you know, and it's just that subtle shift away from hoarding all the credit to the firm to distributing the credit to the to the team. it's it's a subtle shift.

D It's it's a it's a c change institutionally from an architectural, professional standpoint. from practice standpoint, but from a theoretical standpoint, it's it's just a switch. It's just a little flip of a switch. And doing that has huge implications in the in the way that people interact with the architectural community or the architectural profession, in the way that projects are acquired and work is shared. And honestly, the the more that you give back to the community the more that you yourself receive, and and we've experienced that in, you know, in our practice. And and it's one of the things that we are interested in in looking towards both from a technological standpoint, from a business standpoint, from financial standpoint, from a legal standpoint, you know, like, we have people on our team that represent each of those different categories. And we're kind of exploring each of these things that we're discussing from each each of those perspectives?

C I really wanna, follow-up on that because I think there's a lot of really great things that you pointed out in not only the generational shift, but, I always think about, like, when I was working on projects and I'm in the Revit model, there's a whole team of us and we're You know, if you think about it in firms across the country, people are clicking in the models of these firms thousands of times a day, and they're they're completely integrated into the technology of the project. And the shift of I to we empowering the team has such an immediate impact back to the individuals who are helping to support the project development. so I agree. I think that there's a huge opportunity, and it's a cultural shift, not only in the technology, the leadership, and the firm business model that has huge results that it could yield?

D I think the the democratization of information and the increased accessibility of technology within the architectural community specifically, but more generally, is the the number one thing that is going to contribute to a future of abundance as as human beings. 1 of the projects that we're currently working on, which which Evelyn knows quite a lot about is is called affinity space, and it's named from the work done by, Doctor James G, formerly of Arizona State University, where he was looking at the forums and Wiki spaces surrounding video games as affinity spaces as 3rd spaces for exploring the various, experiences that happen within games and the various solutions to the challenges that games provide.

B Yeah. So before you go on, just because I don't think our listeners fully understand what you're talking about. Let's break it down a little bit for them. This notion that there are entire, like, Wiki fan encyclopedias. I don't even know fanatopias dedicated to video games and communities around them about, like, how you get like, how you get seed grade objects. I don't know. Knowles, if you wanna dive a little bit.

D Let me make it a little bit more accessible.

B Yes. Thank you.

D if your hobby is remote controlled airplanes, there is a a community of people online that can tell you everything about remote control airplanes, about how to build them, about how to fly them, about where you can fly them, about the local laws and jurisdictions, and varying materials that you need to to to investigate based on your climate and your your your wind situation, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. That's another example of an affinity space. this, doctor G was focusing on affinity space within games, but what he uncovered are affinity spaces across the board in in every sector of of information in every sector of practice, both professionally and and not. And so what we have begun to develop is, in essence, an index of those various affinity spaces where members from one domain or 1 knowledge set have the ability to share information with members of another domain or knowledge set around epic challenges, key issues, invisible problems that are affecting people today. instead affinity space.com. And what we are are hoping to develop is a grassroots community that is focused on leveraging the collaborative nature of architecture and design to tackle some of the key challenges that are facing the world today from a cross sector standpoint with domain experts acting as moderators that we've recruited to to be part of it. And so some of the stuff that that we're talking about here, this idea of this, the shift from eye to we, is really at the heart of of all of the work that that we're doing and and this sea change away from the Starcatec to or or the architect as the sole proprietor, the the sole, authoritarian person who has the the best interest of the project at heart to the architect as the social collaborator, the architect, as the person who who brings people together, the the the the one that supports collaboration, the one that's that, designs teams the one that, you know, is the max the matchmaker and the networker, you know, and I think that that is a 21st century vision for for architects. And and we're starting to see the the term architect get used in other industries as well.

D They're, you know, obviously there are software architects and there are social architects and there are policy architects and so forth. And and part of the reason why is that term is just so applicable to so many different realms where there are multiple stakeholders involved and multiple domain experts involved, and you have to work with each of to to come to a solution that everyone is more or less happy with. And trying to say that one person is capable of that when there's an army of people that are that are that are contributing to that effort. I I feel like it's an inevitable change. and so Yeah. Through through our work, we're trying to to further that that position.

B Now affinity space and even the party with us, I think, is, you know, 2 different methods of future applications of technology that actually changes. I don't I don't I don't wanna say cultural revolution, but definitely requires kind of a a cultural re revolution to kind of see some success You know, what other applications in terms of technology in the future have you seen, or, you know, how else are you using are you approaching future applications of technology? And what role do architects, you know, can architects plan that today or or should be playing it in it tomorrow.

D I think there's kinda two questions there. So let me see if I'm understanding you properly, and I can kinda go

B down one or the other. Kind of stumbling. So please feel free.

D So one thing that I heard was What are other applications of an architectural skill set? And just to respond to that very quickly, some of my students and a lot of my peers that graduated from sci arc are not architects. They are working for production designers. They're working in film. They're working in theater. They're working in game design, level design, virtual experience, environments, design, user experience design, interaction design, etcetera. And I think what we are seeing in a large way is the whole scale application of an architectural education to non professional applications. And they're still architects. They still have that iterative design background.

D They still have that sense of space and that sense of proportion and that sense of of narrative and so on and so forth. But for, for whatever reason, they are they're choosing to apply that to something other than the built environment. And as the virtual world continues to grow, we will see more and more of that. there are today architects that develop virtual projects for players of the game called Second Life, which may, some of you may be familiar with. which is, you know, basically just a a virtual universe where you have an avatar and you can make friends and you can go to work and you can kind of do whatever It is that you wanna do in the real world, in the virtual world, and some people call it escapism, and some people call it fantasy and and and whatnot. But nonetheless, it has a massive subscription base. And in order to play at certain levels, you have to lease space or buy land and you have to build a house and you have to, and in order to, to build a house, you have to hire someone to model that for you, which is usually done in the mesh model or like blender or my or thirtieth Mac on a computer and a physical room somewhere, and then it's sent virtually to that person and it's uploaded. And there are virtual architects that are developing virtual projects for virtual environments for virtual users.

D what one of the things that we've been been looking at because we're just also tired of of staring at our own faces and zoom over the past 3 months or so is how do we start to for some of those virtual environments from a educational standpoint, from a professional standpoint, and we're actually going to be teaching, a an iteration of our design studio that we call gamerlab at sci arc and ASU this fall and next spring, where we are teaching an entire studio inside of an online multiplayer game. where, we're not using zoom. We're not meeting in person. There is no physical studio. We have or in the process of developing a virtual site, which will be shared, being a virtual site We haven't decided yet, but we think we're gonna play with gravity a little bit. We think we're gonna play with slope a little bit. I think we're gonna play with some of the the the physical constraints of that architecture is usually concerned with, and we're going to, have, about 28 students coming up to coming up with virtual solutions for a virtual site, which will be critiqued in a first person virtual environment within a game setting. and we're going to, send invitations to that game environment to specialists from all over the world to walk through and and, you know, play the environment and and really look and see how we can leverage the existing technology within video games to provide a collaborative review, space for both, restarting, looking just at schools, again, sci arc and an ASU, but also looking beyond that, to see how some of that technology can be ported over into her professional space as well.

B That's super interesting. The first thing that comes to mind is then, like, my my least favorite experience was always building that shared site model that all of your other models had to fit into. So taking that out of studio

D So you were the you were the one person that ended up building the whole thing by yourself. Well, everyone ran off and did whatever they wanted to do. It sounds like. seemed like there was always one of those people that that ended up building the site model for everyone.

B Oh, I don't, I don't know. I think my colleague used my and disagree with you on

A --

B as much as I could. But just the fact that, like, I'm like, how did why did you, you know, make the base so that I have to, like, put a a twenty foot pedestal on my model just so I can anyways, what are so you guys I think I mean, my description of what's going on at architects and RiddleLab. And even kind of your what you just described as a virtual studio, I think, is kind of cutting edge and, like, very forward thinking, which is not unexpected coming out of schools like sci arc. It's exciting to see ASU again on board too. What would you, like, what would be some of kind of pairing it back for our listeners? Like, the the people, the individuals in, you know, large firms or small shops that, you know, just really struggled with making this remote transition You know, what are ways that you you think firm owners can begin to test out new technology and think about new technological applications to their practice?

D You know, the vast majority of the stuff that we're talking about is either free or cheap. And while I'm not an advocate for design competitions, I feel like design competitions in a large part are kind of a brute force solution to something that is more delicate. But I do believe in the power of sprints, and this is something I have one that that you mentioned, earlier. I can't remember if we were recording it or not. And most of this technology that is not available on a free basis is available on a free basis for a short period of time. And I think that for our firm's own health and success, it's important that we continue to innovate in small short bursts, allowing time for people to understand the impact of that, how we integrate it into our current workflow, how our current clients and and customers are impacted by that and how it unlocks the potential for new clientele. So, you know, establishing a workplace culture that supports innovation sprints, that it supports exploring new types of technology and new ways of working or no more or new, theories around professional practice or and I use the word pedagogy in a professional setting. We, we talk about, protocols and, and procedures and best practices curriculum because that's the type of practice that we run.

D So trying something out for a short period of time, almost like a Shorette in a studio, give your team a theoretical project that maybe is a research project that can feed into a real project. That'd be best case scenario. But if that doesn't exist, then then simply looking at, you know, creating something that maybe the maybe the team votes on. Hey. We'd be interested in signing a shelter for the moon or a habitat for Mars or something that is is far enough a field that it has some entertainment value to it and then using some new technology to explore that. If it's a new visualization technique, if it's a new collaboration technique. If it's a new project management technique, and and and even don't be afraid to bring the business model into this conversation and say, you know, we'd like to explore a an equity role in a project. Well, we're not gonna do that on a project that's gonna bring in a $1,000,000 and pay staff, you know, for 6 months or whatever.

D we're gonna do that. You know, we need something small. What's, you know, is there a is there a nonprofit in the area, or is there a restaurant that needs a rehab, or is there is there something that I can explore a new business practice, a new technological practice, or a new professional practice in a limited capacity for a set period of time that doesn't put my the future of my company at risk. And and that's I mean, that's why we have to to get back to your your initial question, Evelyn. That's that's why we have Rotor Labs. So we when we discover projects inside of Rotor Architects, that we want to take a risk on. We shop it out to Rotalab, and Rotalab spins up a team to to put together a solution for it. And if it becomes a long term project, then it it gets folded back under roto architects.

D And if it if it doesn't manifest into something, then it gets added to our catalog of beautiful failures. You know? But there's but there's no harm, no foul. There's no there's nothing lost other than really just the time of a of a a dozen or so people. depending on the size and scope of the project. because like I said, most of the time, what we're doing is free and really trying to to learn in the free spaces as much as possible.

B Yeah. I mean, I think the important thing there is you're talking essentially about doing many prototypes even. Right? in in a in a sense, and and a well, consistently, right, but building that into a cultural framework. I I mean, when I was talking about innovation sprints, I was talking literally just kind of getting out of your head space for a day or 2, is interesting, like, as as an application to technology, like taking that opportunity to really test out, technology in in a more robust way, not just a, hey, we're gonna run this in parallel. Try it out. Tell me which one you better than the other, which never really seems to work out successfully. You came out of Cyarc kind of working with Michael Rotendy and this idea of Rodolab, what advice would you give to other architects You've kind of dropped the bomb on where you think architecture needs to be headed. You know, what what is the small? What is the low hanging fruit? And then, like, where do where do architects really need to stretch, I guess, if that makes sense?

D If if there was one one leaf behind, it would be in, you know, individually and as an organization seek to identify the low hanging fruit in your region, in your market, in your practice and establish some schedule, some goal to develop a a a realistic response to that. We've identified a market here for starter homes under a $100,000 that we are working on a solution for. I can just about guarantee my firm 10 projects over the next 6 months if we can partner with enough contractors in enough areas to to deliver starter homes, you know, for under under a 100,000. that's a big ask in California. I believe that it can be done. There's huge demand for it. Everything from ADUs to you know, Airbnb, etcetera, etcetera. So identify that low hanging fruit, identify that low hanging fruit in your in your clientele, in your market, area in your, you know, in your practice and and really work to exhaust that that opportunity and make sure that make sure that you have tried to deliver an out of the box solution for that highly accessible opportunity before moving on to the next opportunity, especially if that next opportunity is a traditional opportunity.

D innovation is started in the dry times, in the times where we're all kind of fighting for survival. And as soon as those first rains come in, innovation is forgotten, and we all go back to the the way that we were doing things before. And I I I think that, we, as a as a profession, as a community, need to make a commitment to innovation and to finishing our innovation sprints. rather than setting them aside as soon as we get a project, and we've got some pay coming in for a little while. So so, yeah, I would I mean, you you said it before I could, Evelyn, identify that low hanging fruit and and as a as a designer and as a a conceptual developer. Take a stab at it. And and who knows? You know, it might be the next the next thing that we're all talking about.

C You guys think really differently. The most architects, I know.

B I don't know. I mean, do you know what drove you to think so so different? I mean, do you know what drove you to think think the way you do and and still love architecture?

D Yeah. I I'm going to strange some of your listeners with this comment. However, though, I I was That's okay.

B It's only episode

A 3.

D I was homeschooled until 9th grade. I was raised and educated by my parents, my father who is a ceramic artist, and a 3 d design professor. And my mother who, besides just being an amazing full time mom, is also a a writer, a storyteller cook. and she still is all those things. I don't know what I'm saying in the past tense. And for the 1st

A 13, 14

D years of my life, every aspect of my life was out of the box. and I was forced to not well, forced to to develop my own, approach to everything and my own position on everything and my own process for achieving everything. And then when I got into architecture school, it was like a perfect fit because it went from 1 process driven pedagogical framework to another. And I was like, oh, this is just like what I was doing before, except the the scales, you know, the the scope is is magnified. And instead of just looking at, you know, because because we use what is now called phenomenon based learning. which is where every aspect of learning is based on a story. So Finland, for example, which is the one that is really pioneering this in their national education system, everything is based around the narrative of climate change. And so in your math math class, your, you know, your learning formulas that have something to do with the environment.

D In your physical science class, you're learning about climate change, and your English will, you know, your language courses. You're you're exploring narrative or or linguistic responses to the the issue of climate changes such. So everything is oriented around that as a central theme. And that's how we that's that's how my my mother ran our our homeschool program. everything was based around a theme, and she wrote those themes. And they were incredibly, involved. And then to get into architecture school, it was just like building upon that theme where it it was fiction and it was form and it was space and it was program and it was physics, and it was all of the technology and all of these different things layered on there. And I so I just I found an environment in which I could flourish.

D And I've been incredibly lucky in that way. And and I if if I were to speak for Michael, which I I think he would be okay with. I think he would have a very similar response, being one of, if not the youngest, in a large Italian family, I think he found himself on his own quite a lot and was forced to come up with creative solutions to, environmental situations. And and so we, we both have a very kind of similar background in that we are both auto didact that we both have had a, a huge hand in developing our own education systems to the extent that he, you know, co create a sci arc and that whole education system. And when I say that Rotor Architects is a teaching practice, that's really at the basis of our, of all the work that we do is it's about furthering ourselves through learning, through practice through iteration with the problem. And and that's at the basis for all of what we're doing.

C Nell's, I think this was a very interesting conversation. I think you brought so many really interesting points that are worth. I don't know. I think they will go through the series and hopefully, relate and We're really glad that you centered technology around culture. That was a very interesting unexpected outcome for us, but we really appreciate that because it was I think it's really directly tied to this larger theme of why practice is changing.

D Yeah. It's all it's all part of the inform or the the information web, the knowledge web, and and, we are just part of a a global system and where culture or society tugs at one string, technology pulls on another, and, to to think that there's a technological answer without a cultural response, I I don't subscribe to that belief. So everything is intertwined. everything is important and everything is dependent on itself. And I think as architects, we are uniquely positioned to take that view of the world and and and hopefully apply some of our skills and understanding to some problems that are maybe outside of architecture. Society's got a lot of them right now. And, not a lot of people stepping up to to fill the gaps.

B So, Janine, I know This episode turn it took an interesting turn for you. I what questions?

C I have a lot of questions. And frankly, even going into it, I think what is most interesting to me is that we both had different percepts about what the outcome of this conversation was gonna be. Right. I remember in the early conversations of even just reaching out to Nell's, I was saying, I really wanna talk to him about the pivotal point of how technology changed practice and then step into where we are now with the second wave of how Technology is changing the way we work. And now after participating in the interview and understanding your analysis perception, about this topic. I realized that I'm thinking about technology in this very narrow way. The The way you guys are describing it is much broader. I would just be interested in getting a little bit of help to further understand the stepping stones of where this conversation came from and where you were hoping it would land because while it was interesting to me, And I took a lot away from the discussion.

C It's just a different angle than I was imagining. So I'm super curious what you're thinking.

B Right. And I and I don't, like, I I hope that our listeners did get a little bit out of that So an an observation that I have is that whenever architects talk about technology and practice, it goes straight to Revit, CAD, to VR, and AI in the simplest, like, sense of usage of those tools. Don't get me wrong. There's definitely some firms doing some really interesting things in VR, but but the generic discussion around VR and architecture to me is kind of is kind of boring. Other industries have have moved on to VR in a in a very higher level. And I also think we're missing a broader technology discussion. And some of the interesting things that Nell's began to touch on but didn't fully dive deep in is just you know, how how Rodolab is looking at technology to have a better client management, like, a client management system. how Rotilab is using technology to productize some of the work that they're doing for other clients.

B by actually bringing software to market, you know, how Rodolab is using technology to find efficiencies and deliver new value in whole new ways. Right? I mean, he was talking about the ASCU sci arc Studio being completely in a virtual space, which was the first time that I heard about it. But if you think about a lot of architecture schools and what they're facing in the coming semester of being totally virtual and having to make that decision. There are schools out there like the BSA that are that have a whole degree that is delivered virtually. But the idea that they've actually created this this learning environment that you can step into in a way that we can't do on a Zoom call, you know, or even a collaborative whiteboard is taking it to another level for me, which is where I would like architecture to talk about. Like, I feel like that should be the starting point for where our profession engages with technology, if that makes sense. Like, how how do we push it further rather than than being the people that are just purely trying to adopt all of the SaaS software that is current, right, rather than being the firms that are purely struggling to whether or not I keep Revit on the server, or whether I move to cloud. Those are not the innovative disconversations that I wanna have when we're talking about the future of technology and practice.

B Sure.

C No. I get that. And I think the classroom example is very relevant. And I can especially see that if they had a class in studio when I was in school like that, I I know a lot of people who would have taken it. And I can also see my nephew who is gonna be graduating high school soon and loves gaming, he would be really into that for sure. But if I flip it and I start to think about this as the firm owner or someone who's further along in practice, I guess what I wanna know is what lessons are they going to take away from this station in terms of adopting or considering something in practice. And I know Nell's made some recommendations about how he felt about that, but I'm curious what you think?

B Yeah. I mean, what was interesting to me about the whole conversation is that we we started to talk less about technology and more about firm culture. Right? And it goes back to this ability to create a culture where you're not afraid to test new things, but do it on a regular basis so it doesn't become a special event too. Right? So that it that it literally becomes a part of the culture. So Technology, I think the growth of technology and the way technology is changing is at this new and incredible pace. and that pace is only gonna continue to accelerate into the future. So, really, how do we create a culture that does a quick scan of everything that's out there and then pull a few ideas out from that scan and test, like, Is is there applications here in our firm that we can use to accelerate something that we're already doing, to take something that we're doing and turn it into something that we can sell as something else or where, like, create a new product, Not that they would productize necessarily their classroom, but but you could see how they could take this idea of a classroom and then go around and sell it to other Universities, right, as a as another studio space. So how do you then take that idea and productize it, or how do you even just create some -- thing entirely new on the backbone

C of technology. Well, the idea of that space, even being space you could sell within is pretty amazing to think about. And he mentions that also in the interview that this is another realm that exists to designed to create and to earn money.

B Oh, yeah. So he was talking about this virtual gaming site. But if you think about there's a lot of ecommerce happening, even in a game like animal crossings, right, where people are playing in real money for a virtual product, I admit I've played mobile games where I play real money to get fake money in the game so I can buy something, whether that's additional time, or, furniture for your place. A furniture, even, like, furniture for your place. And that happens at a lot of different a lot of different games, not just the game he mentioned. But you could be the game developer on one end, thus designing that piece of furniture that you know, is only available on a loan type basis, and there's only various different ways that you can get it. I mean, he was mentioning this whole idea of this ecommerce space, which architects can play in, which is which is really interesting to me. That's the first time I've actually heard that specific platform brought up in a while, but people were definitely making large large amount of money selling virtual real estate at one point.

B There's definitely documentation of that. I can't remember which game, but I feel like

C it was like Minecraft was one of them. Right.

B And Minecraft is a kit Minecraft is a game that I've downloaded for my four year old too. So, like, So it it's not they're not very intricate designs necessarily either.

C So to walk it back, I I think now we've gone in like, one extreme of talking about virtual reality, but I also wanna come back to the idea that we have architects who are in the process of, you know, building fabrication labs. And when I left school, that was a new emerging trend. And since been out in practice. I've seen a lot of firms step up to purchase and invest in that type of technology and support creating fabrications shops in their studio. So between virtual reality and fabrication shops, what's the in between in terms of technology?

B There's a very unique crossover, and there's very unique case study. And we might wanna even consider them for a future episode, but Rio's Clemente Hale in Los Angeles, California. has a two story building. And on top of the building, they had their typical architecture studio. And on the bottom, at least when I was less there. I don't know if this has changed at all. They've actually created a storefront and a lot of what they have in their storefront It reminds me of a museum store, but some of those those artifacts are artifacts that came from their own design. So they took a textile or a pattern that they developed for the Disney Concert Hall for instance, and reimagine that as a textile and then sold the pattern in a form of of a household good at a variety of different scales.

B There's a lot of architects doing a lot of different things with 3 d fabrication that are really small and intricate but they're also doing 3 d math fabrication at the the building model level scale. I also came across this huge tube, these 2 DI wires, but they're making a lot of money because they took their fabrication shop, which is a combination of a CNC machine and a 3 d printer. And they casted concrete coasters that they were able to sell on West Elm. and that's been come an entire new line of revenue. But, I I don't know. I think there's different uses of technology and I I think sometimes in in looking at the complexities of everything that that technology is can deliver, we also kind of miss out on on what can be a very simple opportunity to to create another stream of revenue in our services.

C The thing I'm hearing from this conversation is thinking about technologies at different scales because it breaks beyond just computer software, and there's a lot of different facets in which you can think about technology showing up in an an architecture firm. And there's also a lot of potential. So I guess just to step into our call to action for our listeners of what they should think about getting out of this episode. I think that we both agree that it's important for firms to take a step towards assessing if they have an agile culture that's willing to support integration of new technologies and at what levels are they thinking about in practice because it's no longer good enough to not be thinking about it at all. Yeah.

B I think it's to create the space to allow this type of thinking to emerge. And technology, again, is the driver of that because technology is changing. So in order for us to keep pace of technology and play in that field, how do we create this space to fully embrace it? and figure out different avenues that our firms can capitalize on the technology. And not every idea is going to be a winning idea. that too, but you can but you aren't going to get to that winning idea until you, you know, one of the things that you learn in business school is fail often and fail fast. So how do we change the culture of architecture firms to be able to do that at a smaller level by, like, by not subjecting our multimillion dollar project to that, but by taking little instances, micro risks, testing new ideas on a regular basis to continue to push how we apply technology to practice and, in turn, grow, grow and evolve to practice on a regular basis. too. I mean, for me, for me, that was the biggest unique thing that came out of it.

B successful integration of technology is not purely the integration of technology itself. It's about creating the culture that allows. allows for that to happen.

C Yeah. I think that's a great observation. And maybe we should start to talk about some of the lessons that firm owners and leaders can apply.

B Yeah. So I think if they're, you know, I think one of the thing is if you're afraid kind of dipping your toe into it. Maybe start by making it a special event. And then as you have these events more often, it becomes less special, but it becomes really a part of the culture. So I talk about doing 1 or 2 day innovation sprints, if that's too much, you know, make it a half day innovation sprint, but take the opportune, and it doesn't have to be technology focused. If you've build this type of i ideating and recreating and rethinking into your practice, then the adaptation of making changes to your technology stack is a lot easier. So, like, how do you do, like, like you said, micro risks, a lot of different skills how do you integrate, like, the idea of a mini charrette and kind of build that into your culture, build, you know, design a better way to create a jack o'-lantern. Like, make any holiday event kind of another idea to kind of way to test new things about how your firm collaborates and how your from expands upon making and doing and designing.

C I can certainly see it from a marketing standpoint also. As an administrative function of the firm, I oftentimes found that there was a little bit of pushback on the idea of exploring new ways to improve marketing to meet the demand that we were up against. From a technology perspective, there is a ton of potential marketing, not just an application, but also in processes and the broader sense of technology. You know, I think the idea of micro risks and there's definitely potential for growth within marketing and technology in my opinion. When you intentionally invest in marketing growth, it leads to revenue.

B Right. And even in marketing, though, I think there's an opportunity to firm for firms to figure out what their technology stack is there. Right? So CMS's CMS solutions are is a term that gets thrown out maybe at larger firms. but small and mediums firms don't often think about their client management system, but there's a lot of CMS offerings for small firms or even even the sole proprietor out there that want to, you know, we always say architecture is about relationships, but really CMS systems that are are have built in AI that looks at your interactions with individuals and kind of reminds you when you need to get back in touch with them to to keep them live?

C I guess from a marketing standpoint and thinking about micro risk, marketing has a ton of potential to gain, and it doesn't affect the project. It doesn't affect the deliverable

B show. Alright. But we don't ever talk about that. Right? The first thing we talk about from a technology standpoint is never Excel. And the limited use case. So maybe because it's not interesting, but from an operation standpoint, I feel like we are definitely missing missing out on larger on larger opportunities, from from other software as a service companies that are coming up.

C Yeah. There is a huge market there and a lot of different offerings to explore. I know that the potential is tremendous because it's creating efficiencies and increasing that client interaction and communication piece, which is very valuable.

B Yeah. So I think that's that's a small way. Like like, so look at even productivity tools. Like, don't even put architecture in the Google search bar. There's some architects doing some interesting things with smart sheets that are are adopting it to their use. This is all very low risk again. low monthly costs to try out. A lot of them with some of them with 30, 60, 90 day free if if you get on a phone call with them, but definitely at least a 7 day kind of free test drive of the product itself to see if it it could work within your ecosystem and figure out at a very small level.

B How do you How do you figure out a way to deliver your invoices better? I mean, and continue to do that and continue to iterate it until you found that you look back and you've really changed the way your entire practice engages and uses technology to get the work done. It's about changing the culture to both identify these things and create continual change. We have to create a culture that's okay with continual change to keep up with the technology applications that are out there. and and also to understand where we might have a competition. Right? I've seen even in my Instagram feed made run I don't know if you've seen made renovations, but there's a lot more of these, build tech firms coming up If you look at their websites, under jobs, they're looking more for front end front end engineers than they are for architects. But, essentially, they're delivering virtual designs of bathrooms. They're getting them permitted, and they're getting them built at a song, kind of all in one delivery. and they're doing it without licensed architects.

B So there's that too. I guess the biggest takeaway is under understand the technology landscape. and find ways to use it to your advantage whenever possible. To conclude, I

C just wanna point out a couple of key ideas. One, we all know that technology is rapidly changing landscape, and I think that's part of the ongoing challenge. This is no longer something that you can just adopt at one point in time in your practice and then think the conversation's done. rather, this is a conversation you have to revisit and pay attention to on an ongoing basis. Technology and especially change is the new norm. And so for design leaders, I think the key is looking internally at the culture of your organization And just evaluating, are are are these kind of conversations about change something that you're anticipating or resisting. And knowing that about your firm culture, are you allowing those conversations to happen so that you can stay relevant over time, or are you really resistant to those conversations and preventing your firm to adapt.

B Yeah. I think only then will we begin to be more relevant. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disruptive, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. visit us at practicedisruptive.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media podcast network, You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, You can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are started hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.