Architecture, And: YouTube, Entrepreneurship, & Architecture

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Je'Nen Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello Listeners. Hello Je'Nen.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, Disruptors.

A So when I think about answer to the question, what does the next generation architect look like? Our guest for this episode, Dammy Lee, her name just instantly pops into my head, and I think it's because she's grown her career and her practice in a very intentional way. And I would consider it actually a multi hyphenate career or that Dammy is a multi hyphenate architect. So if you don't know her by her YouTube channel, you should I would go Google that immediately. We will put it in the show. Notes her YouTube channel has attracted an audience both in architecture and beyond. And I was out there visiting her in Vancouver and I learned I knew she took on typical architecture projects, although she's approaching it in very atypical ways, but she still very much, for instance, uses model making as a part of her process. And she jokes partly because they show up great on camera and they are great for storytelling, but she also actually uses them for all the reasons architects have historically built models within a traditional practice. So in many ways, I feel she's blending the old with the new while forging a new path forward for architects.

B And I guess I'm excited because as a storyteller and someone really deep in the weeds on working on podcasting, I just am curious to know so much about your process and what's happening behind the scenes to create all these YouTube videos. I know how much work goes into our podcast creation, so I think there's a lot we can also dive into about understanding what it means to invest in a career in YouTube and what it takes to do that. So looking forward to this conversation.

A Dammy, welcome to the show. We're obviously very enthusiastic to have you here. I'm trying to not use excited as much. We always open the episode by having each guest kind of introduce themselves. So how would you introduce yourself?

C Yeah, I'm an architect based in Vancouver, BC. I've never heard the term multi hyphenate architect before, so I'm curious to hear more about that. Yeah, but I am an architect and I also have a YouTube channel where I talk about architecture and design. And just last year of October, I started my own business, Noli studio.

B Congratulations.

A Yes. I have a question for you. How do you identify first, do you always lead with architects or do you always lead or do you say, I have a YouTube channel and am an architect, or I'm an architect who happens to have a YouTube channel?

C Yeah, I always open up with that I'm an architect because the YouTube channel wouldn't be possible if I wasn't an architect, but then it's also vice versa. Like, my architecture business would not be possible without the YouTube channel. So, yeah, I explain it to people. I tell them that it's an architecture business and media YouTube business and there's a very good symbiotic relationship between the two.

A So because this is practice disrupted and we've kind of focused on people who have an architecture background and moved away from it. Let's start by asking you the very basic question, why did you want to become an architect?

C So I kind of got into architecture a little bit accidentally, but I've always loved art, I've always loved painting, always been very artistically inclined. But when I was in high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I did spend a lot of time in the art room just painting for hours and hours on end. We had like an open door policy where you could just go in and paint whenever you wanted to. And sometimes I would just like skip class and go in and paint and yeah, so it was my substitute teacher who said you should apply to architecture school because I didn't really know what I wanted to apply for.

B And what was your experience like practicing once you made that transition?

C Well, practicing well when I was in school, it was amazing just going into this world of architecture from knowing nothing about architecture. That was really cool. And then going into practice after school was also a totally different experience because I went to work right after my Master's, so I didn't really take a gap year or have a break to explore things. And so doing your Masters is probably one of the most creative times of your life where you get to explore anything you want and then going to the practice, it was definitely a big contrast.

A I feel like you explore anything you like, in a way, in your YouTube channel. When did you decide you needed that additional creative outlet? And why YouTube of all places?

C I would say I kind of realized I needed a creative outlet kind of as soon as I started working. But my firm, they actually encouraged doing side projects and moonlighting. So I had a couple freelance gigs as well. And so yeah, I did a lot of photography and it was a creative outlet and I made some extra cash. But I think a lot of it was like it was a nice idea to have something that was my own and like, having my own clients and doing my own projects. And then the YouTube kind of came in again a little bit accidentally. So after my internship, so after I had completed all my hours and finished all my exams, I decided to leave the firm that I was at and I wanted to kind of go explore, I wanted to travel and I booked this yoga retreat in Mexico, but then that was also the summer when COVID happened. And so, yeah, all my trips got canceled and nobody was hiring at that time, which was a really big contrast from when I decided to quit.

C Because at that moment, the market was so good that I didn't even think that something like this could happen. And so I was really, like, shooting myself in the foot. I was super anxious. I wasn't sure when the industry was going to go back up. So, yeah, I just had a lot of time. So I live in the West End area where there's a lot of birds and nature. So I kind of went out and started doing wildlife photography and started making some videos of there were these herons that came down to our house. So I started making videos of the herons.

C And then my boyfriend, he's a videographer, so he has like, tons of really expensive camera equipment that I can use. So I started kind of experimenting with that and then learning to edit during that time. And then it was also I wanted to try to find something that could make money. So I did actually try taking a couple of courses in construction finance or real estate finance, because I was like, okay, this is probably somewhere where I could get a job and make more money than I was making before. But then I really didn't like it. And I was like, this is definitely not for me. And so, yeah, I think it was a combination of things. Oh, and then I also saw a video on YouTube.

C I think the algorithm was probably feeding it probably knew that I was spending a lot of time online, didn't have a job, and so it was feeding me videos like, oh, how to make money off of YouTube. And so, yeah, it was a combination of all of those things that led me to start YouTube.

B So just to paint a picture for our listeners, if they go on to YouTube and they find your channel, you have 761,000 subscribers. I don't know how many videos you have, but it looks like this goes back several years in terms of how long you've been doing it and the quality. The graphics look so polished. So it looks to me like you've kind of figured out your voice and how you want to create and structure the way that these videos appear. I guess all of that to say, I would assume that this has been a process to get to where you are with having that voice. And so I was hoping you could maybe talk about some of the growth that's happened for you through developing that content.

C Yeah, so I started off mostly just talking head videos. And my core audience was actually students and interns and young architects. And I was talking mostly about my experience in the practice, doing internships experience in architecture.

A And that's actually how we met, right? I mean, in that process because you reached out for me to be on an interview. And at the time I was like, wait, she's actually recording video? Because I remember I was sitting down and I was like, oh, I didn't even do makeup today. I'm sitting on my bedroom floor and she's going to record me on video. But okay, sure, let's go.

C Yeah, I should have given you a little bit more forewarning warning, but I didn't really know what I was doing, so I was like, oh, Evelyn looks really interesting. I would love to have her on my, I guess, YouTube channel. So, yeah, still trying to figure things out. But that was also the time when I was looking into transitioning into a different area. So that was why I specifically reached out to you. Yeah. So a lot of my early videos I've made about 100 so far. A lot of my early videos were like tutorial based me teaching videos.

C But then also a big part of what I was really interested in is like, visual storytelling. So that was one of the things that I really liked when I was doing my thesis. So I tried to make a couple of videos of my own projects, like conceptual projects. And then that's when I started realizing, okay, I kind of need to up my editing game if I want to do justice for these projects. Yeah, so I started off doing tutorial videos, and then as the channel grew, I just wanted to do more and more kind of high production quality. And that also shows in the YouTube performance as well. Like, when you put in more work and more production value into the videos, they perform better. So yeah, I started working with editors who were better at me than editing.

C I've gone through a lot of editors to this point, and I think a lot of it is just like, learning how to work with editors and finding the person who has the same vision and can kind of execute in the way that you see things. And then just the beginning of this year, RAF joined YouTube, our channel, and he's like an experienced filmmaker. So that's probably when you see the production quality of our videos go up quite a lot. And that was like a conscious decision on our part. We decided to make a lot less videos. So before we were making probably like once a week or once every two weeks. Now we're more on once every three weeks or once every month kind of schedule. But yeah, we're seeing that that's paying off.

B So I was telling you this before you got on the call. I'm going to tell this story again just so our audience could hear it. But when Evelyn kept saying that she wanted to bring you on the show and I was like, oh yeah. And then so I mentioned this to my husband, he was like, oh yeah, I've totally seen her videos. So we watched the one I guess there's like probably a handful in there that you've had really big hits on in terms of viewership. And we watch YouTube like it's TV. We have a curated list of channels we subscribe to. We have Die Hard shows that we watch.

B So we are deep in the weeds on YouTube. It has replaced TV for us. And what stands out is that your content is so like the quality is so nice. So that really translates. And I know that must be such a huge commitment. So I guess from creative standpoint, I was super curious how much time goes into crafting these episodes.

C We haven't really been doing that up till this point because every video was so different. But now we are officially a business, so we're trying to keep track of things and measure how we do things. And so the video, in terms of research and scripting, it takes about, I would say 25 hours approximately. And then the editing is about a week, like full time weeks worth of work. And then if I'm doing a video on, we just shot a video for the architecture project that I'm working on. Videos like that, we make models, we make full on renderings. We get another architectural editor to edit that, and then we rent a bunch of lenses to film the models. So that's like even more work that goes into it.

C So, yeah, I would say probably two, three weeks of kind of full time work.

B Wow, that is so shocking. And I mean, it makes sense, but that's such a huge investment for each video. But I think the payoff is so amazing because you're obviously getting the viewership and the engagement and the return on that. Anyway, that's the nerdy stuff that I'm thinking about. As someone who we go through this process when we work on these podcast episodes, there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that our listeners don't have exposure to. We kind of vaguely talk about it, but I just want to acknowledge the depth of work that you're putting behind the scenes because it's obvious to me and then the content. I was also curious, how do you come up with all these ideas on what you're trying to cover?

C Yeah, it's a combination of things. So we listen to our audience. We actually get lots of good suggestions from the comments section. We also look at the analytics to see what performs good. We actually discovered this whole new theme of talking about futurism and urbanism a little bit by accident. We made a video one time on the line and that video performed really well. And over time we realized, okay, people are really interested in cities. They're really interested in talking about how we're going to live in the future.

C Of course, if we can tie in a big IP to it like cyberpunk or Sci-fi, then that's always a plus. And then we also try to look at kind of our goals for the channel and for the business. So we obviously want to continue the architecture side of the business. So once every three or four videos, we will make a video on the project that I'm working on. Those videos are a little bit more investment and time and resources, but they're worth it because they bring in clients.

A Let's talk about the architecture side because I feel like there's people that would have taken your path and easily said, I'm going to be in videos full time. You not only left a firm to start your own business, but within your business. Conglomeration. Right. The architecture practice is very intentional. And it's funny to hear me at the top of the show to hear the story about how you kind of all fell in this accidentally, but yet you still retain obviously this level of architecture. I guess in your own words, why continue it?

C I totally see where you're coming from because the architecture I'm realizing that there's a lot of overhead in an architecture business. I think I've always had an entrepreneurial mindset. But then over the time span of working at different firms, and I've also worked at a lot of startup firms, like small firms, I kind of realized I didn't want to do a standard architecture business. And so if I didn't have the YouTube, I definitely wouldn't be able to do the architecture business in the way that I want. So why do I have the architecture side? I guess if I'm thinking about if I retire, for example, I think I would still want to be an architect. I think I would still want to design. And this is kind of what I like to do in my free time. So it's something that brings me personal joy.

C And then secondly, it also really aligns with the goals of the channel, which is we want to bring out that feeling of when you first go to architecture school and you have this inspiration and excitement and you learn that architecture is not just the building and it's like poetry and its behavior. So that's a part of the vision of the channel that we want to elicit that kind of inspiration and feeling. So I feel like being in the practice and designing and being in the weeds, that definitely gives us more of a unique vantage point to talk about architecture than just talking about designs that have already been built.

A And I don't know how candid you want to be about this. I remember when we first have our conversation about having this, about you coming onto the podcast. You were kind of nervous, you were just starting out and I was like, well, but this is actually a great time to really have the conversation with you because I think people see you on YouTube and think, oh, she's got it all figured out. So what was it like for you making that transition from being in the firm to going to YouTube on a more regular basis? Obviously upping the production and then starting your own practice?

C Well, I can say that I have a lot more empathy for my bosses now.

B I literally just said that to someone maybe like an hour and a half ago. Because I'm also a small business owner, I feel like I'm like, oh.

C It.

B Was a little harsh.

C Yeah, well, I mean, especially when I was working and especially having this platform, I was always very like I pushed a little bit and I would speak for the workers and yeah, I was very, like, RA. And then I realized, oh, wow, there's so many things that they had to deal with. And it's not just design. It's like being inspiring. It's being a good leader. It's dealing with clients. Oh my gosh. All the admin stuff, all the finances, hiring, keeping employees on.

C Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's a lot of work. So how was the transition? Yeah, it was a little bit challenging for me to lead the firm. It took me about six months to actually decide to do it and give my notice. The YouTube business was actually more profitable than what I was making at the firm by that point. So I think from an outsider's point of view, it was kind of a no brainer. But I had this project that I was working on and it was kind of in mid CA, so I didn't complete the project before I left. So there was a lot of kind of guilt and responsibility that I felt.

C And there was also I think a lot of it was the social aspects of being at the firm and going into work every day, like working with my coworkers. I really love the clients. I was working on a library project, and I was working with a bunch of librarians who were really awesome. But then, yeah, I just tried to look at how much energy and time I was actually putting into the firm versus my own business, and in the end, it didn't really make sense for me.

A I think all of those thoughts that you were having are not dissimilar from when I'm talking to people about career transitions and when to transition and when is the right time to transition. And it's always kind of like that feeling of guilt of leaving the project, hanging mid project. It's the coworkers that you love to work with. I feel like anyone can echo those sentiments or understands where you're coming from.

C And then there was another part that was I was also a little bit afraid that I might not be able to do any more architecture work. So there was that as well.

A Yeah.

B You mean when you made it into your business, you were worried that there wouldn't be work once you started your business?

C Like architecture projects architecture clients because I didn't have any architecture projects when I left the firm.

B Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. No, it was interesting hearing you talk about the two business model. Or well, the two elements. I don't know if you consider it all under one business model or if they're technically two different business models, but the functionality of the YouTube channel feeds work to your design practice side is interesting, but it also is cool to hear you say that the YouTube channel is the priority business. Or you didn't say priority business, but you kind of said it. Essentially you implied it's leading in the way that you're creating revenue. And then the architectural design thing is where you find your joy and do that on the side.

B I don't know if that's what you meant, but that was what I heard and it was kind of interesting thinking about the YouTube channel driving the business.

C Yeah. In terms of revenue, I would say, well, it was like 60 40. Now we're getting into like 70 30, 70 being YouTube. So because the YouTube, I mean, like, you can only charge so much for architecture. Right. And it's not really scalable. So I'm assuming that over time, it'll probably get to that there will be a bigger disparity in the ratio. Yeah, I do think that it's like a very symbiotic relationship that I get reached out by a lot of clients because they already feel like they can trust me.

C And I remember when I met my first client, I was ready to go in, kind of trying to fight for myself, like market for myself, like trying to show all these projects that I did. And he was like, Well, I've already watched all your videos. I already know where you are in your career journey. I know that you don't have that many projects. That was really kind of refreshing and relieving to hear. And a lot of clients who reach out, they have that understanding.

A Yeah.

B I am so appreciative of this conversation in a couple of ways, but the one that comes to mind first is that I did marketing for so many years and I was constantly trying to convince firms to invest in video production or like drone footage. Let's do some social media. Let's film it, let's show the work.

A Let's show the people behind the work. Right? Let's show the people behind Timid.

B Sometimes I could get some traction on video, but video is a big investment. And in your case, you're basically saying that you have been able to lead with video and it has, as a marketing strategy, led to work, which I love. And I find it hilarious that you're basically saying right now at the stage in your career, it's more profitable than the architecture side, which is funny. Maybe you'll scale it, maybe if you grow the architecture studio and over time that will change. But it is making me laugh that it is essentially yeah.

C And then there's also the part it also affects the architecture as well, because, for example, we will try to use every design iteration as content. So let's say we do like, three or four design iterations. We'll make a video or content out of each one of those. So none of the like, we try to make sure that none of that goes to waste. And so when we make a video out of a design iteration, then you can get sponsorships, you can get ads, and you can also sell assets around that design. And so it's creating kind of, like, a little bit of flexibility for us to be able to do more design. So it kind of, like, feeds into a loop.

B So you're basically able to bring the client along in understanding the creative process, like you said, sparking that interest in that initial thing that we all get excited about in studio to compel the client to understand the value of design, which makes them more invested in wanting to see you.

C Iterate yeah, and also we're getting some investors or, like, developer clients because they think that if we share the story about the design and share it with our audience, it'll increase the value of the property, and so we're kind of seeing that as well.

A That's really interesting. I was telling Janine that if I ever went out on my own, I was like, I don't want to do professional services because it doesn't scale. So hearing you say how your architecture just isn't scaling but from a variety of different ways that you scale YouTube, I think more affirming that I'm not necessarily interested in staying in professional services. If I ever left tech and prior, literally, probably up until December of last year, I was like, I want to be a consultant if I leave. And now I'm like, I don't want to be a consultant.

B She's, like, watched my journey a little bit, and she's like, no, I don't think so. But I got to give you credit because we've been talking about these alternative business model ideas for a long time, and I think what you're describing is you're designing and thinking about the framework of the operations in a completely different way that is super interesting, and I think it's really cool, like, everything you just shared. I appreciate your transparency.

C Yeah, no worries. And in terms of scaling, just having this channel has given me the opportunity to talk to a lot of people in the tech field, and they're really all about scaling and scaling and scaling. And so that's what I had in my mind as well. And then, yeah, I've been kind of struggling with finding the right person, the right architect for the firm. And just a couple of months ago, I finally hired, like, a full time employee. And, yeah, I keep asking the question of, like, is it possible to scale an architecture business? Because I try to hire kind of a senior architect to kind of run the design with a bit of my direction. But what I found is that that's a skill to give direction without actually doing the work. And I'm not there yet.

C I don't have that skill yet, so I have to be in the weeds, like modeling and sketching. So that's my time. That's like half of my working hours. So, yeah, I'm finding that really challenging.

A Well, when you figure out how to scale it, you could probably make a lot of money teaching other architects how to scale.

C Well, I'm curious how other firms have done it without losing that design touch and that personal touch.

B Well, I don't know that anybody's got it figured out, but I've definitely seen different versions of it, and I think it's really challenging. I think that's why sometimes it's hard for people to give up that control because the design part is really at the heart of what people tend to love about being an architect. And so when you start basically being responsible for management and firm oversight, a lot of people that I will talk to, they're just like, that's not why I signed up to be an architect. I didn't want to run a business. But yet they're being asked, based on their salary and where they're at in their career, to take that on. But yeah, that's a really deep topic that we could get into. I just really want to maybe spend a little more time on your business. Specifically, tell us about Noli and what kind of projects you do and who are your clients.

C So, we have our video production. The major part of the revenue is from the sponsorships. So we work with a lot of different companies, like Autodesk, SketchUp Portfolio. Most of the architecture companies I feel like we've worked with, we also work with technology companies like HP, Lenovo, things like that. And then we have another kind of like non media, non architecture, which is we're doing consulting for AA video game, and that directly comes from our videos, like analyzing cyberpunk or analyzing Sci-Fi movies. So, yeah, we're helping them kind of guide. We're guiding the direction of their world building. So that's really cool.

C And then for architecture, we have just one project. It's the project in Orinda, California. Super challenging site, super challenging jurisdiction to work with. But the client basically gave us full design freedom. He was like, we just want you to explore your creativity. And so, yeah, we get to take quite a good amount of time on Schematic design development. And we did discuss how to move forward in CDs and CA because I'm not licensed in California, and I don't love doing specs and detailing. So once we get to that point, we might kind of contract it out to another firm or another architect.

C But yeah, that makes up our work right now. And just next week we're going. To Cozumel. Do you guys know Cozumel? It's like a little island in Mexico and we're meeting with a potential client there.

B That's fantastic.

A You have like a very specific stylistic way of presenting yourself in YouTube and you also kind of have this really fun sense of humor that I appreciate. Where does that come from?

C I think the personality that I present on YouTube is probably not necessarily my personality because it is quite scripted. I started off YouTube just talking on camera and then I realized over time doesn't really perform that well. So there is a lot of thought that goes into what I'm saying in the videos. But I think the actual scripting part, like the part where I decide what I'm going to say, that is the one part that cannot be outsourced because that has to come from me. So I don't know, I try to bring my personality into the YouTube videos as much as possible, but then also at the same time there is a lot of thought that goes into it.

A So we've talked about this growing dimension between how much you're making doing architecture versus how much you're making doing all of these other things. Is doing architecture like a question that you think you're going to find yourself continuously reexamining? Like whether or not it's worth it in the end if you're making so much more money on the other things or is it so much or do you have such a love up that it'll forever be a part of noli.

C I haven't spent too much time actually delving into this question. But I really think that the architecture side, no matter how much it makes, will always be a part of the business just because it's what I personally like doing and I just like getting into that flow state of that meditative state of designing. And I actually just read the study saying that people who get into the flow state more often, they're generally happier. So I think that there's a lot of ways you can make money but then there's not that many ways to have a satisfying career and life. So yeah, I try to be mindful of that.

A And then you mentioned how obviously you've gotten a lot more empathetic of your bosses now that you have to take on everything. What do you see is the most challenging thing potentially for architects going forward, knowing what you know now about practice and running a business and running a project?

C I think the biggest challenge right now might be the declining workforce. Maybe not declining, but a workforce that has a very different mindset than my generation or your generation. I've spoken to a lot of students and they are not interested in a lot of them are not interested in doing architecture. Being an intern, the way that I've gone through it and I mean, I don't have any statistics on this, but that's just the sense that I get that a lot of young architects or architecture students want to do different things and they want to have meaning in their work and they don't want to just do architecture. They want to do content, they want to do film. And yeah, my intern, Cindy, she right off the bat when we are interviewing, she said, I'm interested in film. And so although she's an amazing designer and an amazing intern, we try to make time in the business so that she can learn the film side of things. Yeah, so, I mean, I definitely see that as probably being one of the biggest challenges because I think so much of the architecture industry was kind of built on the force of the interns, the force of unpaid labor, not to put it too crassly.

A So back to your original question at the top. When I think about multi hyphenate architects, and when I think about multi hyphenate careers, I think it's because of the various different interests and how they all intersect and how you've kind of managed to weave them all together in a way that works best for you. So you're not just an architect, you're not just a filmmaker, you're not just a storyteller, you're not just an advisor to a video game house. You're doing all of these things at once. And if you look at the full picture, it actually makes a lot of sense in terms of how they all work together.

B And it surprised me because I thought you would say that YouTube is the thing that you're most excited about, but you surprised me. You said design, which is really cool. I think there's going to be architects out there that are going to be really happy to hear that.

C Well, I see the YouTube side being more delegatable. Is that a word? outsourceable delegatable? Yeah. So I see building more systems around the YouTube business and kind of letting it run on its own, and I see the design as more personal.

B When you think about what you hope your YouTube channel will do over time, what do you hope your impact will be?

C For us, the kind of driving vision is to instill that sense of inspiration around architecture and try to communicate about architecture to the wider audience and kind of try to get them to see things in a new light, just like how I started to see things in a new light when I started going into architecture school.

B Do you think that it's possible that we could, as an industry, achieve an overhaul of our intern process that could make people want to stay, make people feel more engaged in the process? Do you think that's possible?

C I think it's definitely possible, but I think we need to do a lot of work. Yeah, I mean, interns are interesting because they can provide the most value if you're putting them on the same task over and over again. Right. Just from the ROI point, of view. So just from a purely business point of view, it doesn't really make sense to try to get them to new things and explore new things. And so I think businesses need to have that as their base mindset and give that account for financial flexibility to be able to do that because I think that's really the only way that people are going to stay, otherwise you're going to have such high turnover.

A What advice do you have for students coming out of school that are interested in one? Either pursuing video creation on a platform like YouTube or pursuing an architecture firm. What is your advice for this year's graduates?

C My advice would be to try to explore the different areas that you're interested in and don't worry so much about fitting into a specific category or creating something that fits into the mold. And I think when you mix your different interests, you can kind of become your own category so you're not really having to compete with all the other people. So, yeah, I would try to spend a little bit of time looking into your interests and trying to hone some of those skills and try to evolve and get better at those skills every day.

B Hi Disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on Practiceofarchitecture.com slash podcast.

A Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers and others in the community@practiceofarchitecture.com. Community.

B Our social media handle is Practiceofarch. That's Practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

A Thank you for joining on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by the Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on Change in the Professional.