Season 6 Finale, a Moment for Change

A Evelyn Lee. I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn.

A Hi, Disruptors.

B So, Evelyn, are you ready to talk about it?

A I mean, we finally can talk about it.

B I'm pretty excited. I think that our audience would love to hear what you have to say. It was so nice meeting so many of our disruptors in San Francisco. We are just returning from an A23 or the conference on Architecture, and I'm pleased to share with our audience that Evelyn Lee was successful in her run for first Vice President, President Elect of the American Institute of Architects. Congratulations, Evelyn.

A Thank you. And I think the first question that we want to assure our listeners about is that this podcast is not going to go away.

B Yes, I guess we'll have to talk about that, too. But I think let's start with your race you, man. I don't think that people know everything that's been obviously not. They don't know what's been going on behind the scenes. And I thought we could take the opportunity today to talk about that and what your experience has been and kind of what this means. Like, what does it mean that you got elected? Let's start with why did you run and why was it important to you to run?

A So, you know, I've been involved in this organization for a really long time. You and I have often talked about how we've grown up in the organization, and that in many ways it's been a safe place for me to learn a lot about becoming a better leader. The other side of that and having been involved in the organization so long is you and I both see the conversations that continuously come up time and time again, which for me are at some point, they're just really unresolved issues. Right. And part of that is always being the complaints about how much other people have taken away our services, the desire for people to understand our value better. And more recently, I think cultural topics and the need for culture to change, while it's always been something that has been talked about, has really begun to surface. So because I've been in the organization so long and I've not only seen these conversations come up again and again, but have had the opportunity to explore, how would we do that differently? Through my experience running a strategy group at MK think through my education, getting an MBA and MPA and now having seeing the greener pastures and a different, entirely different culture working in tech, I felt like I was able to come back and talk about how we can actually do this in a different way that moves our profession forward. That's ultimately why I ran.

A I ran not distinctly on a platform of change. I ran on a platform of opportunity that we have yet to embrace. And in order for us to embrace that opportunity, I think the profession is ultimately going to have to create some changes. But in the end, I think it will be for the better.

B And this, just to clarify, this will be a return to the board. You've served on the AIA Board of Directors previously. Can you just define what those roles were and when they were in your career?

A Like, I have to go dig out my bio to tell you when. So. And I want to bring a little bit of levity to this, especially because this is what I've had to do with my dear tech friends to understand what this means. So the AI organization, we're 96,000 members strong right now, with over 220 chapters globally. So it has a global reach. So I feel like this position, being president of the national organization, is very much a platform to initiate these conversations around opportunity and change. And it's been a long road to get here. I would have to get the AIA historian on this, but I believe I have more experience on the National Board than any other single member out there.

A So I served on the National Board as an associate member back in 2007, 2008. I came back to the National Board as an at large representative from California. This is when it was still a large board of over 50 people and it was regionally represented. Then the board went through a restructuring. The governance of the AIA went through a bit of a restructuring, and it went to a smaller board. So I came back to the board as an at Large Director, voted on by the Strategic Council. I feel like now we need to give our viewers a map or our listeners, like a map of all of the big committees at the AIA National. So the Strategic Council voted me in as an at Large Director.

A So it wasn't a public race. And then I served as treasurer, which was a public race, but I ran unopposed for two years. But I was the first female treasurer in the history of the aia. And now I will be returning to the board again in 24:25 as the first vice president elect. And then eventually the president.

B I did have someone ask me, how do you run for president? How do you get elected it is a very complicated process. As we now know. There's a lot of complexity to the aia and it is made up of a lot of different components and at the national level, a lot of different groups that are working in parallel to each other, including the board and the Strategic Council. And I think you have served in a lot of capacities from the state of California all the way to the national level. So you have deep involvement. And I certainly think of you as someone who really understands the history of the aia.

A So the vote for president isn't. Is in many ways, it isn't dissimilar from our Electoral College, but in many ways is actually even more confusing. So I had all of these people, be it practice disrupted listeners, people who followed me on LinkedIn or get the practice of architecture, newsletters who are reaching out and asking me how to vote and how to support my candidacy. But it's really hard to kind of understand. So there's 220 plus chapters globally, and each of those chapters are allocated a number of votes based on how many members they have. So the more members you have, the more votes you get. And then each chapter at the individual chapter level decides how they separate out those votes to various different delegates. So for instance, in San Francisco, we ask any of our members who are interested in voting to raise their hand.

A So sometimes our votes get split three ways. Another time our vote gets split, I think it was split 18 ways this time. And then there are some chapters from very large cities where the board might have a conversation about the candidates and they might pool all of their votes with one individual. So you really just have to understand how each chapter votes and how you need to, in a way, how you need to reach out to each chapter. And every candidate, once you become an accredited candidate, is given this list of chapter presidents, vice presidents, and then if they have a case exec or a staff member, essentially a list of over 500 people that you do your best to reach out with during the campaign, to get in touch with them and ensure you get the votes. So there's actually a lot more going on behind the scenes than I think your average member would realize.

B Oh, 100%, I think, to all of the candidates, past and present. I have so much respect for them because this takes, first of all, takes incredible emotional endurance and strength and tenacity. And to go through that process and just put yourself out there and then to run it is just a lot. And so I would encourage everyone to really show appreciation to the people that step forward, because it's a big. It's a big ask. And I think one of the elephants in the room that we should talk about is the fact that you. You ran last year against Kim Dowdell and you lost. And our audience would love to hear you talk about, what did you learn from that experience? How did you recover? Because losing is really tough when you are that visible.

B Especially, I want our listeners to understand how tough that was on you and what that experience was like for you.

A Yeah, I think it's. I mean, it's very emotional having been involved with the organization for so long. And I don't want. I guess in my assessment, I don't want to make direct comparisons between Kimberly and I, but it was evidence, even in my outreach, that it was. That it was a hard choice for people to be making. And I don't think I would have run again if it weren't for the incredible amount of outreach that I received afterwards, even from people who didn't vote for me, saying, we had such a hard time deciding, please put your hat in the ring again. But it took a while for me to recover. I think there's the Practice of Architecture newsletter, and we have the Practice of Architecture Lab, and I was doing these monthly webinars, and I needed to just take some things off my plate, so I took the webinars.

A I backed away from a lot of that for a little bit to reassess and try to understand and learn from what happened, to see if I would be willing to put myself through that emotionally again. And I appreciate you kind of letting everyone know, like, how. How emotionally hard that is for. For the run. Yeah. I mean, the ironic thing is, I think the one of the texts I got from my parents when I let them know the news was, like, the text from my mom is, it's okay. You're going to do it again. Right? And then she reminded me of all the things where I failed the first time, and then I stepped in and I tried again and I succeeded.

A She's like, you just never give up. So I think it's also, I mean, that part of my nature, I think, helped. Helped reconcile what I was going through. But, yeah, it was hard to lose.

B Well, I guess as your podcast partner, like, I. I just saw a lot behind the scenes, and I, you know, honestly, like, I think the world of you and Kim. And I know it was a really hard choice for everyone last year. Two incredible leaders that I really respect. And what's cool is now we get to see both of you lead in together, you know, this, this result means that you'll get a chance to both have a role in helping the AIA step forward, which I think is really positive. One question that we, we got from our friends at she Builds, they wanted to know going into this year's campaign how your approach was different from the year before and why you think it was more successful this time.

A Well, I know for a fact that some of the people that voted for Kim and then came back and said run again, will vote for you. I definitely had those votes in my corner the entire time. So that was, that was helpful. But what is interesting though is I think ultimately Kim, what Kim brings and what I bring is in a way very complimentary to each other. Her campaign was very much about expanding the pipeline of who makes it into the profession. And in many aspects, my follow up campaign this year is about how we stop a leaking pipeline in order for the industry to remain relevant. But also how do we continue to increase that pipeline in different ways by inviting the outsiders, you and I, I think being outsiders, back in, back into the fold. So, so there's also additional dynamics that happened in between 2022 and 2023 which was that mental health became I feel like even more top of mind burnout is at an all time high.

A Architecture Workers United has a very, has been supporting Snohetta in a very public campaign for a union and the first union in a private architecture firm actually happened at the end of last year. All of this is to say I feel like there's this wave of change where action is actually taking place that made the campaign even that more relevant this year in a climate when more of the industry is actually interested in that change and seeing something different. So a lot of it was timing and I, and I felt like the timing was right in many ways this, this year and supported, supported the campaign differently than it did did last year. And, and the message I felt went a lot further.

B Let's talk about the milestones you're hitting with this historic win. So you are the eighth woman elected into this position in 160 plus years.

A 166.

B 166 years. You're the eighth woman. You're the second woman of Asian American descent, technically the fourth Asian American, the first building architect in a technology company. But also as you said, your campaign represents those who go on alternative paths.

A Yeah. So another thing, two interesting things happened that I want to kind of mention. So one thing that happened this year when running that didn't happen last year is I feel like I gained a lot. This and this was. And I didn't. And I wasn't prepared for it is that I actually gained a lot of respect from people for. For putting my hat back in the ring. I think people were.

A Were surprised that I would go through the undertaking again. I think I surprised myself sometimes a little bit by wanting to take it on again, but it earned another level of respect around how serious I was about what I want to accomplish. And then two, I think the number of people that have left the profession for any given reason, they were laid off during the recession. They struggled with the architecture, just the industry being not the right fit for them, so they went and pursued work elsewhere. This whole time I was saying all these people suffered through the same education that we all went through through studio. And just because they switched careers doesn't mean that their love of architecture went away. And they can be incredible advocates in the fields that they landed in. And not only that, there's so many lessons that we can learn from these architects or from these individuals with architecture backgrounds that are now in other fields.

A And to have all of those individuals reaching out saying, I would rejoin AIA and be a part of it if you won, I think was wonderful. But then there's a message in the architectes group that after I won, and for those of you who don't know, I think we could maybe drop it in the show notes we talk about. The architectes Slack channel for a while ago was set up by a couple of architects, a handful of architects that left the profession and went into tech. And I think it has over 2,000 people in there right now. There's this. They're like, wow, does that mean we have a voice again at the aia? This is really exciting. So that it was kind of nice to see that out of that group. And I think it just goes to show you that these individuals still want to be engaged in some way.

A We just haven't found a good way to engage them.

B Yeah. And I think that touches on why I have been so fiercely with you. I mean, I feel like we should separate for our audience, the podcast and the election, because they are different things. Like the. We got involved together on the podcast because we wanted to create something meaningful. And then at some point you were like, I'm doing this. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm on the ride with you. But I do think, you know, to be clear, like, you are somebody that I feel like represents me.

B And I don't always feel like I fit in this profession. And so I. I was really wanting you to win because I feel like there are a lot of people that feel that way. And I feel like you will uniquely be able to speak for those folks. And I. I just can tell our audience that. Just personally, I went through a lot of change in the last six years of my life trying to figure out how to be in this profession. And you're just someone who has been there with me through that entire process, which helped me not leave, you know, helped me not feel like I needed to walk away.

B You know, the depth of what that meant to me is significant. And so, yeah, I just have a lot of respect for you for many reasons, in addition to you being my friend. But I also want to give you credit that I think you grew a tremendous amount over the last year. Like I was watching behind the scenes what was going on. I think we had some frank conversations last year about the election that had happened and what needed to happen if you were going to do it again. And I. I sincerely feel like you grew and you took the feedback and you grew as a person.

A One of the things that I've talked very openly about is my time at Slack when, especially during the pandemic. I think being in tech at. Well, being specifically at Slack during the pandemic and seeing how the leaders of Slack at the time, this is pre acquisition and early acquisition, led the company through that gave me an entirely new perspective on leadership. But I feel like it took me a couple years to figure out how my voice or how I lean into their type of leadership, I guess. And their leadership was so authentic and it was so human, and I felt like they understood what I was going through. I don't know, but I feel like I've done a lot. I'm a big introvert, as you know, but I've been doing a lot more to try to put myself out there and talk about, and talk about what it's taken for me to get here. And I brought a lot of that to the campaign.

A I brought a lot of that, even, like, not directly related to what I was putting out publicly on LinkedIn and even my own personal struggles, because inevitably, we all are human. But it's okay. It's okay to show that side of you. And I don't think I would have learned that if it weren't for the wonderful leadership that I saw and demonstrated at Slack. We have incredible leaders within the aia, many who I call dear, dear friends. But this was just like the Slack community. The Slack leaders just connected with me. On a different level than I have ever had.

A And they really were aspirational and inspirational to the type of leader that I wanted to be. It just took me a while to find that voice.

B Let's talk about Slack, because I think that one thing that caught me off guard was when I talked to you on Tuesday when we finally got a chance to catch up after the event. You were in the office at Salesforce Tower, which acquired Slack. What was the reaction that you got from the Salesforce Tower and Slack community about this news?

A I think very minimal. Which didn't surprise me, but surprised you.

B It surprised me.

A It's funny and this, this is very, it's not dissimilar. So I was also at Slack and Salesforce when I received my fellowship. Right. And I think for many AIA people receiving fellowship is like a. It's a career defining moment. Like that's the highest accolade that many architects receive throughout their career. And it's something that's, you know, they celebrate it. The firm takes them out.

A They make a much bigger deal about fellows and they do licensure. There's some states, San Francisco. Out of all of our members, we only elevated three fellows. I think there's only 3% of the AIA membership is actually fellows. But again, no one at Slack in Salesforce cares. This is a very anticlimactic moment. Similar to that. I'm in a workplace where these type of things help me put the profession and where we are having stepped outside of the profession.

A I'm at a place that helps me understand like the global population, the reaction to architects. Right. Because in the scheme of things there's nothing really from a business sense for Slack and Salesforce to gain by like announcing my win as presidency or. I guess I think sometimes architects think, we tend to think that we're more important than we are in the global scheme of things. And it's just kind of evidence the priorities being in a company working outside of architecture.

B I think though, your campaign talked a lot about your role being in technology and how technology is influencing our field. Do you see how you might start to bring forward and bridge that divide or do you see opportunity even from the standpoint of your idea on raising the value of architects, to start changing that dialogue?

A Yeah, I mean, I think there's so many lessons to be learned from other industries that we should bring into architecture. One would just be, and we've talked about this before is the gatekeeping. Right. And the difference between being oriented like your first week at an architecture firm versus Your first week at a tech company. So I think at an architecture firm, I am very lucky if I have my computer, all the paperwork in front of me, and my business cards, you know, and. And they'll maybe set up a lunch for you to meet everyone in the firm the. The first day. But it's very much especially for people that are entering the profession.

A You know, you kind of have to earn your way to the job site, you have to earn your way to the client meeting, you have to earn your way into conversations. It's more about a.

B You.

A You just don't know enough yet. So we're going to keep you in this bucket until we're ready to move you along. Kind of what is sadly a very linear assembly line of, as you gain more knowledge, then you get access to more things, but until you do, you don't get access. Technology is very much the flip of that. Right. You're greeted with a message of, you've earned your right to work at this company through the job search process and through the candidate process. We trust you and we want you to take a look at what we're doing and tell us what we're doing wrong. And we appreciate that feedback.

A So, you know, when we talk about just the cultural changes that need to happen in the architecture industry, I think that is one place that we can definitely learn from how things are managed outside of the industry. Tech is a lot more collaborative. Right. Too. And I think we're getting there more in terms of what we're willing to share between firms. But, man, I've worked at a few firms where I couldn't even share. Like, the project managers wouldn't even share the detail. Like, they've each created their own detail library with one another and wouldn't share it.

A So there's a lot of lessons to be learned from outside the industry that I feel could make the profession better. And then a lot of people are interested in the unique perspective that I bring to the table. And then they're doubly interested when they find out that it's my architectural training that has provided me with that unique perspective and the way to view things from a systems approach. So in doing so, they're seeing the value, my architectural education and the value of architects in a way that they don't fully understand or know before. Right. Because. Because we're only known for being this kind of prestigious service that you need to be able to make a certain amount of money to be able to hire. And I don't think we're truly known as being problem solvers.

B So I know you're interested in helping to bring the outsiders back in, but are you also interested in encouraging more architects to join the AIA or to stay in the profession or to build that pipeline out also? And if. Yes, how?

A Yeah, I think that goes directly back to my work of practice of architecture. And you know, my leaving the profession and my being critical of the industry is not for my lack of love for the industry. I think it was just because it didn't have a place for me within the scope of work that we're doing. So the question really is, how do we create a place for all these people that have made the choice to leave and then ultimately, how do we deliver products and services that can be competitive? Like that's the ultimate goal, right? We want to be able to pay our people as well as the tech industry pays their people with the same amount of benefits because they see the value in architecture. And so that's the ultimate goal to work toward and is what I hope practice of architecture can be in the future. And I had a very deep conversation yesterday with a good friend of mine, Larry Fabroni, who's past AIA president. He's now in business school in Chicago and is getting very interested in the VC space. And he's like, what if we had an accelerator of ideas coming out of firms that we are able to then fund those ideas and help move them forward better, quicker, faster.

A And that's ultimately the end game of practice of architecture. But what I've discovered is architects are so heads down in the work, right? They're so busy right now, some of them can't find enough talent to support their pipeline. So what type of systems do we need to give owners, the business owners to support business operations so that they actually have the bandwidth to think about how else do I raise the value of the services that I'm delivering? Because I will tell you, it is always possible to raise fees. It's really hard to raise fees and not change anything else about what you're doing right, without changing the value proposition. So when I talk about expanding the business of architecture, how do we provide services differently or in a new way? How do we expand those services? Expansion of services and new services adjacent to what we're already doing is actually the quickest way to grow profit and revenue in the firm. But doing more of the same and then just trying to get to raise your fees against that is actually, you know, it's very hard. One podcast I made, and maybe this is not the Right. I have said this publicly and you know, maybe this is being too like, too literal about it, but if, you know, people often joke that architecture services, especially construction documents are going to become commoditized.

A They're commodities. So when you think about commodities, it's like walking down, down to the toothpaste aisle, you know, and it's like, how often, what do brands have to do to get you to switch toothpaste? Right. And how often, you know, and if you raise your fees, you know, it's probably, they're probably going to, if the, you know, if Crest raised their cost of their toothpaste, they're probably, people are going to probably pick a different brand. So it's really about creating a differentiated service and a new service that allows you to have a bigger fee structure or a different fee structure, which is ultimately what we did at MKThink both before and after, what typically falls in traditional practice. And then we were able to actually charge a different rate than we could against our architecture services. We were able to charge a higher rate.

B But I think that's where you and I share so much interest is like we both went to architecture school, we went into practice, we went for mba. And where architects are thinking about building their building, I think where our brain is going is we're thinking about the business system of the architecture firm and not out of criticism, out of curiosity, like it is a design problem and looking at these different components and thinking about operationally, how do we improve what we've got? Nobody, I don't think in our group of like minded friends is saying architecture isn't important or the way that you're doing it is not valued. It's that what could we do to lift that up even more? Because if we can figure that out, we raise our value, we raise our. The way we support our teams, we raise so much across the industry as a whole. But we have to work towards figuring that out in order to solve it.

A And I think that's the hard part, right? I mean, that's the hardest part. When we talk about all of the things that you and I consistently heard over our years being in the aia, you know, the things we gave away, I feel like we spend a lot of energy complaining about the things that we've lost and the opportunities that we've lost, or we don't even say it's the opportunities we lost. We, we present ourselves as victims, right? It was out of control and somebody else took it away. So the harder part is identifying, well, here's where we are now, but how do we find new opportunities and move in that direction? And I feel like it's going to take someone who is thinking about it. It's going to take individuals like you and me who've been thinking a little bit differently about it and who can see a bigger picture than what has historically happened within the profession. And that's for any number of reasons. You could say that goes to our overall lack of professional development. Right.

A And the fact that even if you look at the AIAU course registry or if you look at all of the continuing ed units that were presented at conference, I'm betting that 90, 95% of those were project focus. Right. And not focused on the business and how to do things differently in the business to move things forward. And that's ultimately what's going to make us more successful, because every architecture firm is ultimately a business and we need to practice business differently.

B Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Why do you think this win is important or significant and what does it mean about our industry and where we're at?

A Yeah, it's so funny because I think, like, you and I, and you've been. And we can talk about this, you've been incredibly supportive throughout this, and I've even felt bad that you've been on this emotional rollercoaster with me throughout these past two years. But it's really taken me a while to understand what a vote for me means in a broader context.

B You mean like to other people?

A Yes, to other people. Mostly because I think yes, people were voting for me, but I think more specifically, and it took me a while to process this, they're ultimately voting for what I represent. And that is someone who is really invested in change within the industry in the best way possible from a truly outsider, outside perspective. And I say that because I'm not on the real estate team at Slack. I'm not in an owner's rep capacity. I am on the Slack operations side, which is such a far departure from the traditional when people think about alternative paths for architecture is actually a further departure than what most people realize. I've leaned heavily into that and who I am. And I was supported by this groundswell of people saying yes, like you saying yes.

A Now I see a place for me in the industry and by younger people saying yes, that person understands that I want to be a part of something. I want to be a part of firms that are socially driven, but also allow me to live the life that I want to have outside of the firm. So ultimately, I think it's A vote, yes, it was a vote for me, but more importantly, I think it was a vote for change. And if timing is everything, Cassius Peeler said this very eloquently, said it on a LinkedIn post, and I borrowed it from him a bit for my post. But this is the first time in AIA's history that we've had three women in a row. But more significantly, and this is unverified, it is also likely that the three of us are the three youngest consecutive AIA presidents. And that represents a huge generational shift in AIA leadership and a huge generational shift in how we think about this organization and in this industry in the future. And that gets me really, really excited.

A But it's also immediately become not a burden, but I feel the weight of the desire for change. And I'm just doing my best before I step in the office to wrap my head around how much change can I actually create in the two years that I'm serving back on the board and how do I create the momentum for this change to continue?

B Yeah, I think that's why I'm really excited by the lineup of Emily Kim and you. I don't know, I think that's a good duo for trio for that kind of momentum and change, but I do, yeah, I want to talk about that. You clearly have expectations that are being hung on to you or placed on to you. Let's talk about that. How are you feeling in terms of what you feel you're carrying at the moment?

A I feel like I'm carrying a lot. I think I'm this really deep introvert. So, you know, you and I, we had to step away after the announcements. I, we, you and I and Megan, we kind of escaped for a little bit. And then, I don't know, I think a few people actually came up to you and said, is Evelyn excited? And I was just. Because it was. Because I was processing and I'd been in it so long. Two years is like ultimately two years is a long time to run a campaign.

A Like, I didn't know what to do with myself because I anyways, I was processing and then, and then I think it was like Saturday or Sunday, you know, when I was having a conversation with the kids about what it means to be president of the aia. And my five year old saying that, you know, asking me, does that mean you're a leader of the architects that I kind of got excited about the prospect of what being president was, you know, and it took me a week to create a post and put it on LinkedIn. And then it's been so well received but so many people are like, we can't wait for the change that you're going to bring. And I'm like, ah. Now I'm like, okay, but it's only two years. So in my head I'm thinking, how much change can I bring into years and one year as president at that. But more importantly, if it is the true start of change. I think my presidency is not just about bringing change, but it's about building the momentum for the change to happen in the future.

A Because it is only a year.

B I think you're leading it. I think you're leading the change like it's a milestone moment and like, I think this is the beginning for sure, like of things to follow. If you could sum it up, what do you think you can accomplish in your time in this role?

A I think the biggest thing that I can accomplish is to change the dialogue, to change the conversation, to have a mindset shift where we're not talking about everything that has happened to us, but rather talking about how we make things happen for us. If more of those conversations are happening and more people see opportunity rather than question why people don't see our value. That's the change that I think that I can really instill. And a part of that is I am only one member of a larger board and we all only have one vote on that. We all carry the same single vote on that board. But what the President and first Vice President does have a purview over is the vision of conference and the Leadership Summit. So at a very minimum, I would hope that you would see, you would see a more entrepreneurial minded message from those, those events. And when you leave, when you come and leave the Leadership Summit, I want it to really be about what it means to be a great team leader.

A And when you come and you leave conference, I would love it to be about like, I got my value at conference because I can take these things and apply them to my practice and I know that my practice will be better off for it tomorrow, in a month and a quarter. But that's what I would hope that the bigger takeaway from those two events would be.

B What does it take for someone to go through this process in an election? Let's talk about the support and the emotional and physical demands of it. What does that look like for someone running or someone that wants to run?

A It takes a team ultimately, like you've been so incredibly invested in this. It takes a team and it takes a community and especially for all of the work that goes into this, you can't do it alone. I had up to the very last day, up to the voting day, there were members on my team that were sitting down and having coffee with people that had held a lot of votes, saying, this is why you should vote for Evelyn, and this is why I believe in her. And those were conversations that were happening, most of them, without me even asking them to happen. Like I found out in retrospect, Right. Or I got a text from somebody saying, we changed the mind of this chapter leader because we were able to sit down with them. So it really takes a community behind the scenes. You have to give two speeches.

A Usually they're both up on YouTube. I don't think this, my second one, is going to make it up on YouTube. But there was a whole speech writing process. I have a lot of editors working behind the scenes. I crafted the outline, but I think collectively we decided we want our speech to be different than any other. This candidate speech needs to be different than any other candidate speech. And we took some risks. And it's not me.

A It's very much a we. And the most interesting thing about it was I think a part of me felt that I was going to lose that community after I got elected. I know I joked with you, you refer to the win as a collective we, but I think it's just who you are. Everything you refer to as a collective we. But hearing kind of the mess, like the conversations that I didn't hear until you told me that was going on behind the scenes, so much of my team was great. We've hit that milestone. But so much of my team also really knows that, like, the work is just beginning. Like, this is.

A This is the beginning. We got our foot in the door. This is the beginning. So, yeah, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of 96,000 members is a lot. And in order for your message to be delivered in a way that more people understand it rather than misinterpret it, I think takes a team of individuals that understand you and are really ready to. Ready to continue to spread that message.

B Yeah. Wow. I don't even know how to respond. I think, I guess I'll say I've already. I've already had my term as president, so I don't need that in. But I see in you a great leader who can go do that and pull forward. And I said this on LinkedIn, like, the determination it took for you to work up to this point, fail, run again. Succeed is the strength that is needed to create the change that we're talking about.

B And I'm optimistic because I feel like the community that surrounds you wants to see that change. And I think we all feel like you winning means that we can all rise to the challenge and start to help to foster that. So for us, it's very symbolic of a moment in time where we can step forward and bring our greatest strengths to position the industry for that change. And I'm really excited, Evelyn, and I'm so, so incredibly proud of you for all of the brave and vulnerable moments that you faced through this process. If people want to get in touch with you to hear more about this story or to take this story further, how should they reach out?

A Yeah, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I know I have a Twitter account. I know I have an Instagram account. I'm on LinkedIn more than I am anywhere else. There's a contact form on Practice of Architecture. I've been flooded in the best way possible by so many responses right now that I'm probably already a week behind just in saying my thank yous to everyone. But I will do my best to respond to everyone who sends a message through. And I've already have requests coming in to things that they would like to see during my, during my presidency too.

A So yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to do it. There's a contact form on Practice of Architecture. You can join the Practice of Architecture community. I'm very accessible there. It's a community of like minded individuals that's really pushing the profession forward.

B Hi Disruptors, thanks for tuning in to Season seven of Practice Disrupted. We're taking some time off into July, but will return with a new season starting in August. During our break, we'll play past episodes from our Equity Diversity, and Inclusion playlist, or you can revisit past episodes from our archives over on practiceofarchitecture.com if you've enjoyed the show, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It really helps us out. We also want to say thank you again to our Season six sponsor, Autodesk Desk. We'll be back after the break with new content and new ideas.