2023 Whitney M. Young, Jr. Award Honoree Robert L Easter, FAIA, NOMAC

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B So this week on Practice Disrupted, we are incredibly honored to have another AIA national award winner with us, of the 2023 Whitney M Young Junior Award, Robert l Easter, FAIA, NOMAC.

A For those of you who may not know, Whitney Young junior was a civil rights leader who challenged architects to assume their professional responsibilities to address pressing social issues. The awardee is an individual or organization that embodies social responsibility and actively addresses a relevant issue such as affordable housing, inclusiveness, or universal access.

B The work Robert has done includes a portfolio to broaden diversity, equity, and inclusion within In the profession that began early in his career, as early as a student at Virginia Tech, through his years as a practitioner, including serving in the US Army Corps of engineers as a senior instructor to his most recent post where he was chair of the undergraduate studies at Hampton University.

A As NOMA's 15th president, Robert created the NOMA council to recognize its members' extraordinary contributions to the profession and forged an alliance with South Africa's design community, creating a sister organization, TENOMA. He also advanced critical research and documentation of African American architects in the United States and partnered with the AIA and other organizations to establish AIA's 1st diversity conference.

B Robert also recently shaped a proposal for the large firm roundtable to better assist minority serving institutions, Particularly historically black colleges and universities or HBCUs, and many of the roundtables firms Have committed to partnering directly with the HBCU's programs and have changed their recruiting processes. Robert, we are so incredibly and I think I already said this at the top, But, again, we are so incredibly grateful to have you here with us today. Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted.

C Thank you very much for having me. I'm delighted and honored to be here.

B So we've obviously run through your bio, but we do like to open each episode by asking our guests to let us know if there's anything else you want our listeners to know or something that maybe not be in your formal bio or even a fun fact you might be willing to share.

C Sure. I think you've noted that I'm the recently retired chair of the department of architecture at Hampton University, Which was my 1st alma mater before I went to Virginia Tech for graduate school. And I've now returned back to Richmond, Virginia to professional practice with KEI Architects. We also have an office in Charlotte, North Carolina. I think the fact that Few know is that I'm also an ordained Baptist minister. I don't know if many will consider that a fun fact or not. I think it's fun, And I think a lot of the work that I've done comes out of my understanding of vocation versus profession. Profession is the work that you do to make a living.

C Vocation is the work you do to be alive. And and the work I do to be alive, Work of the Whitney m Young and and and the work I've done with Noma and all of the other things that you've mentioned are part of that vocation.

A I mentioned this before you jumped on the call, but it it's interesting to me that you're based in Richmond, Virginia. I grew up there. I spent a lot of time there, and so I'm actually really thrilled and kinda curious to hear what your experience has been like Choosing to practice there. I don't hear from many architects in Richmond, you know, in national AIA circles, so I I'm curious just Out of the gate, how has choosing to live and work there supported your career or vice versa?

C Well, when I first went into private practice, we were in Northern Virginia in in Alexandria, and We received a a contract with the city of Richmond to do a series of projects. It was for for those of our listeners who are architects who may know about indefinite delivery contracts. We we got one of those City of Richmond, and it was indefinite, but it was not delivery because we couldn't get any work. And we were constantly told, well, you don't have a presence in Richmond, which made me wonder why we got the contract in the 1st place. But to to get work, I moved to Richmond, And it has been phenomenal, the support that we've gotten from the city, from the citizens. The opportunities that we've gotten have been enriching. So it it Richmond, the capital of the Confederacy, has been a good move for us. I think we've done A lot of things to to make Richmond better by our presence here.

A Yeah. It's a really complex place, and I think you've been involved in contributing to some of the education facilities and some of the historic education facilities in the area and lifting up the community as it's continued to evolve and change.

C Yes. And it's undergone quite a bit of change, and I've been in Richmond since 1991. That's a long time. And Richmond has grown significantly both in its Social and cultural character as well as in its population. There's still a lot of work to do to make Richmond a better place. There's still a lot of Pockets within Richmond where opportunities are not fully shared and not fully realized, and so there is always work to be done.

B Tell our listeners how long ago you stepped down from chair of undergraduate studies because it's been a short while. What you miss most having not been a part of kind of this year's orientation to the next class, And what you're looking forward to in practice now.

C Well and let me state that Hampton has a graduate program In architecture, it's a 5 year program, but their the degree that is conferred is a master of architecture degree.

B Oh, yes.

C So our students come in as undergraduate Students, they transition in their final year to graduate student status. They do not receive an undergraduate degree, which causes a lot of challenge for parents. We we try to tell parents that the profession understands whether the parents do or not. I stepped down in May of 2023. So that's, what, 4 months ago. What I miss most are my babies, the students. We are challenged when we're at school not to call them children, not to call them our kids, But that's who they are. And since I'm not there anymore, that's where I can call them.

C It's always you know, administrative work in education is not fun. Teaching in higher education is enormously gratifying, and and that's what I will be missing the most.

A How did you find your way into teaching? I mean, it sounds like you had a great career in Richmond, and then you decided to go to Hampton. What prompted that transition.

C The previous chair, Brad Grant, was a really dear friend of mine. In fact, I helped Brad get the job. And When he left Hampton to go to Howard, he came to my office and we talked about it for quite some time. And then I got A couple of phone calls from Hampton, in particular, John Spencer, who is another Whitney and Young award winner, who was the Dean at Hampton, when I was a student, the structure of Hampton was different then. And so the the leader of the architectural program was a dean. And he called me and and said, you know, the the the search committee had not been able to get started. He they needed, push, and he wanted me to apply for the job, so I I did. Why I did? I don't know.

C It it was always something that I wanted to do. You you mentioned in in the brief bio, when I was in the army, I I taught when I got out of the army as we were starting our practice, I I taught at the community college level, so so teaching is always something that I've loved to do. So returning to a teaching responsibility was not difficult, But taking on the mantle of administrating an architectural program was A challenge that I enjoyed.

A And I'm sorry to stick to the theme on Virginia, but there's so many interesting layers about your story and having grown up there. Like, I understand personally what it means to practice in Richmond, which is interesting To me, personally, but to teach at Hampton, to work in Northern Virginia. But you also started off at Virginia Tech, And I'm curious to hear about that early influence in your career as well as, you know, making that transition to Blacksburg and transitioning into it's kind of a unique environment.

C Well, as an undergraduate student at Hampton, I I Went to Hampton on ROTC scholarship. So I had a 4 year military obligation, And I was doing everything I could to get out of it. So I applied to every graduate school that had an urban design program, and the 2 that I was most interested sit in, or one at Rutgers and one at Virginia Tech. And I got one one of my friends who had graduated The year before me at Hampton went to Virginia Tech, Dale Jackson, and he and Charles Steger some of your listeners may may know the name Charles He later became the president of Virginia Tech. And he he and he and Dale came to my apartment and did their best to recruit me to come to Virginia Tech. And Charlie was a new breed program administrator. His goal at Virginia Tech in the urban design program was to have the most diverse program he possibly could. That became his goal when he became the Provosted with the dean of the school of architecture at Hampton, when he became the provost, when he became the president, His goal is always increasing the diversity of that university.

C And, so he he spoke candidly about his vision for his program when when he came and spoke with me. And then when I got there, one of the things that I was trying to do was to introduce An architectural program that had regular visits from architects from all across the country, none of whom looked like me. I tried to introduce them to architects who look like me. And so with the help of one of my Mentors, Milt Bliznikoff, who who created the women in architecture program archive that is at Virginia Tech now. We we we set up a minority lecture series and and brought in architects from across the country, architects of color. And that met with some resistance at first. Getting funding for it met with some resistance at first. But we were able to to to make it happen, and and it Became successful.

C So that kind of began my work with trying to introduce people in the profession to Practitioners they don't normally see or or get in touch with.

A That theme has followed you throughout your career, that desire to make a difference and to really bring visibility to practitioners who've found their way through architecture and made an impact in our built environment. So we wanna bring the conversation back to the Whitney m Young and say congratulations on that. I think all these back stories are important to help our listeners understand the path that led you here in your career to get to this point with the Whitney m Young. What does winning this award mean to you? What is receiving this recognition? How does that feel?

C Well, I I mentioned when I I was on the stage in San Francisco that it's always nice to have Your colleagues recognize you for the work you've done. I think that with any award that is given, it is those who share some aspect of your your your background saying that they appreciate and acknowledge The work that you've done to contribute to that profession. And and in that regard, the acknowledgement is nice. It's nice to know that people Have observed the work that I've done, have appreciated it, and have acknowledged it. But for those who are doing this work, You don't do this work for an award. You don't do this work to be recognized. You do this work because you want to see results. And it's the results that are important to me.

C I I stated in San Francisco, I wish we could get to a point Where that award was completely unnecessary because it is in the DNA of our Profession to want inclusion, to want there to be no barriers, whether they are barriers of race, Barriers of gender, barriers of physical or mental ability, whether they are barriers of culture or religion, whatever the barriers are, that those barriers no longer exist, and it's no longer something that to to recognize that somebody's doing something special To make us what we're supposed to be.

A Yeah. We wholeheartedly agree. And I'm curious With the last few years, there has been so much change. And I'm wondering, from your perspective, Where have we made strides? Where do we still have work to do? When you see how things have evolved, What gives you hope, and where do you see additional opportunities?

C I think there's so much more that needs to be done or that and that could be done, that we would be here for 2 or 3 hours to talk about it. Where we have made some strides is in introducing our profession, particularly at senior levels, to Future architects who they would not normally recognize, not normally know exist. Introducing firms to places that are teaching young people how to be creative design thinkers in in at Schools like Hampton that they would never have known about before. So I think one of the big successes is Broadening the awareness of our profession to the excellence in architectural education occurring At schools that are not the traditional MIT Harvards and whatever other schools people want to recognize, Virginia Techs, Georgia Techs, the Hampton and Howard and Morgan and Tuskegee and Prairie View and The University District of Columbia and Florida A&M are on par with all of those schools and are producing students of excellence who have so much to contribute to the built environment. That's one of the things that we've been successful at doing. The challenge now is bringing those young people into the profession, retaining those young people in the profession, Seeing those young people grow to licensure in the profession and seeing those licensed architects Take on the mantle of leadership and administration in the profession. And when we get to that point, then we will have solved one of the big Challenges of our time.

A I'm noticing that young architecture students and those of color are really questioning the value of being licensed. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on that and if he believes that checking that box was instrumental in his career.

C Absolutely. I got licensed while I was still in the army. It didn't make that much of a difference when I first tried to Get work when I got out of the army because there were still architects who questioned my background, questioned my Capacity and my ability. I I had one day I had 3 interviews in one day and for the same position with 3 different firms. 1 firm told me I was too experienced. 1 firm told me I was not experienced enough. And 1 firm told me they called me back. I haven't heard from them The thing that licensure did is it allowed me to get with my then friend, who later became my business partner, John B.

C Kelso, who who recently turned 85 as an architect, who introduced me to everything about AIA. And and and what I told I I wouldn't talk to Jack, and and said, you know, this is what I've been through today. He said, screw them. Let's start our own firm. Now Jack was 20 years older than me. He had been in practice. He worked for the AIA as the director of continuing education, and he had moved to Northern Virginia to work for the AIA. I'm in North Virginia because I'm just getting out of the military.

C But what that license did is it made me eligible for Participation in the profession whether they wanted me or not. I was able to start a firm that has continued on Since 1983, 40 years ago, because the profession didn't want me, What architecture did, and I was able to do that because I had a license. When you have a license, young folks, You control your future. When you have a license, you're not at the whim of those who will decide whether you're good enough, Whether you're worthy, whether whether you're employable, when you have a license, You control whether you want to stay in the profession or not. I had other options, But I wanted to be an architect. That's why I went to school in Hampton. I wanted to be an architect. That's why I went to school At Virginia Tech because I wanted to be an architect.

C That's why I accepted a a scholarship from the army, though I didn't wanna be in the army, because I wanted To be an architect. And that's why I got out of the army as soon as I could because I wanted to be an architect, And that license made me an architect, and I've had a lot of fun being an architect. I've enjoyed the ride.

B So earlier in the conversation, you talked to us about a few things, about, you know, the difference between kind of Your career and a vocation or a calling, and then why you ended up choosing Virginia Tech Because of what they were doing to do to support broader, diverse communities, I feel like it it is so easy to be in the minority and to Just exist in that space. It's different to be a minority and kind of step in and and to be a leader in this space. So, you know, what motivated you to take that on at such a young age, and what keeps you motivated?

C I think one of the my my parents were both educators. They the one thing they never taught me to do is to sit on the bench. It's easy to be a spectator in life and find fault with everybody who's on the playing field. It's easy to sit back and not do anything, but but blame everybody who is trying to do something. So I think A lot of there there are a lot of people who have been maligned, who've been marginalized, who either just give up the fight Or acknowledge that if they don't fight, they at least get to go home and eat. And then some have an opportunity to to throw a punch. And when they find that they've thrown the punch, Realize that that it's not that hard, that that nobody's getting hurt because you've thrown the punch, But that things are starting to change because you get involved in the fight, and You you learn that you've got more allies than you think you do, and that there are people who want to help you achieve some of the goals that you that are important I've been amazed at it's you know, there there are a lot of the of of the biases that I had when I was a a young person That that that have gone away because of this endeavor. I mentioned that I'm a a Baptist preacher.

C Before I became A Baptist preacher, I had all of the Baptist biases when so that when you deal with sexual Orientation and gender identity. I I had all of the biases. And 1 year while I was president of NOMA, we were invited by Gene Barber, who was the director of diversity for the AIA, to get in. There were 5 organizations, 1 representing Hispanic architects, 1 representing African American architects, 1 representing women in architecture, 1 representing The gay and lesbian community, and I don't remember who the other group was, but, oh, the other was AI. And so those 5 organizations got together to to put on a conference. And and you you start to talk, to listen, to hear the challenges that other people other groups and other communities are having that are so similar to your own and recognizing that we spend a lot of time pitting ourselves against each other rather than recognizing who we all fight. If you take every marginalized minority group in America And bring them under 1 umbrella. They become the majority of America.

C And somehow we have allowed a very small minority who consistently see power but don't actually have it, but think that they do because of some Self identifying characteristic and and use that to Put a wedge between every other group so that we continue to fight each other rather than fight 4 of the things that are going to help all of us achieve, all of us be successful, all of us to prosper, all of us to win. And and the more you see that, the more you recognize that, then the more you want to stay in the game. You want to stay A part of the process of bringing on the change because you know it's possible.

A When we were in Indianapolis, my friend Vanessa, who said that Stanford was NOMAC and that he was one of the original Leaders of NOMA and very, very involved in its evolution, and it just made me realize, like, how much When Evelyn and I are looking at our present day NOMA leaders to recognize, like, how many leaders have Stood before our current leaders to help guide that organization. So I I guess in the most polite way possible. I guess I would love to know a little bit about that history and how how you We're initially pulled into NOMA as a leader and how you helped its evolution to get it to where it is today.

C Well, NOMA had its founding as a result of Whitney Young's speech in Portland, Oregon in 1968. I was a Oh, we baby at that time. All of the former presidents and founders of NOMA were Aging were kind of becoming disjointed with with Noma. Some Kind of angry and frustrated with Norma for the directions that they were going. Norma was founded to to I are a voice for advancement, particularly of African American firms When when they started. And so most of the original, leaders were all firm presidents, firm owners. When I 1st got licensed I I have a small firm, but I really didn't know anything about Norma. I was introduced to Norma by Marshall Purnell, who later became, AIA's 1st African American president, but before that, he was normal president, And Stan was a normal president.

C And when I was at a at an AIA conference in in Kansas City, I think it was 91 92. I don't remember. And I was at the convention, and and this guy came and grabbed me by my arm and said, look. You you you need to come. We're having a meeting. I said, who's having a meeting? He says, Norma. Who is that? And I had heard of Norma from Marshall, but I did not remember who Norma was. I didn't know who NOMA really was.

C So he pulled me into this meeting. So I went in I'm in with a group of guys arguing over whether there was going to be a NOMA conference. And the president at that time was Harry Overstreet, and the conference was always In the town of the president. And and so Harry was frustrated that guys were talking about canceling the conference when it was supposed to be in his hometown. And so they were asking people to commit to coming to this conference, and there are probably 30 people in the room. I mean, it's it's not like there were 500. And so I said, yeah. I'll go.

C And I've never been to San Francisco. So I I showed up in San Francisco for the meeting, and there was probably 30 guys at the conference. And and the the conversations were very intense During that meeting and it was more of a meeting than it was a conference. There were opportunities. They had people from the state department and from a couple of Corporations to talk about business opportunities, but most of the conference was about coming to grips with the mission of NOMA. And so I engaged in the in the conversation, and then they had the election of officers. And here, this is my 1st normal meeting, And I'm elected to be the national secretary. And I'm like, why? They said because you Because you dared open your mouth.

C And and so for 3 years, I served as the secretary For for Harry's 2nd year of his presidency and for the 2 years that Bill Stanley was the president, I I was the national secretary, and The conference was growing. I think this we had a conference with Bill. The second one that Harry had was in Detroit because every 5 years, they The tendency was go to Detroit, and then we had 1 in Bill's first one was in his hometown, Atlanta, and then we had 1 in Washington, DC. And and when we're at the conference in Washington, all of the the the selection of the president, we didn't have a nominating committee. We had the the elders. They sat and and decided who the leaders were going to be. And and the one rule for the president is the president had this one who has served as a vice president. And so they're sitting and commiserating over who the next president's gonna be, and they're making all of the other announcements.

C And then they announced who the secretary was, and it wasn't me. And I was saying, wow. Maybe I'm gonna be a vice president. And then they announced the The the vice presidents and they weren't me. So I said, well, I guess I've done my duty to god and country. And so then they were announcing who the President was gonna be in the and and and they they announced me, and I'm like, wait a minute. I don't meet the criteria. The head honcho of of Noma at that time was Wendell Campbell, who was an architect out of Chicago.

C And Wendell just gave me one of those stare downs. I don't know if you've ever been in the room and an elder looked at to to basically say shut up. And and Wendell just looked at me like, shut up. This is what you're gonna do. Move on. Get ready. And that's how I became the president of NORMA. And he and I had many conversations after that, and they said that it was because, a, they they saw the passion.

C They knew that they had selected someone who was going to to do the work, which was for them the most important thing, as someone who was going to move it forward, which for them was also an important thing. And and I think during every president at that time was serving 2 years. And the president of NOMA was not like it is today. It's not a leadership position where you get to direct The major goals and visions of the organization. It was a position where you got to do everything because nobody else was going to do anything Except the we we had meetings. We had vice regional vice presidents who who were very good. Steve Lewis, who also is a former Whitney Young award winner was one of my vice presidents. So we we had good a good leadership core, And and the organization started to grow.

C We focused on building a relationship with students at schools, Particularly the HBCUs. And that became a source of growth for the organization And also a a a source of mentoring for those students, and and that's kind of has grown as a Part of the core value of of NOMA. That's my history.

B I think what is so refreshing about that history is, You know, as a young architect, I look at an individual as yourself. When I was a when I was a younger architect, I don't concern myself young anymore. And I and I asked myself, how did that person ever get there? And just as you said, and I found the case to be with myself, and I I think Janine too, were often pulled along into situations that we weren't planning to necessarily put ourselves in at that moment and propelling us forward, but also being, you know, pulled along by people who who have seen the potential with us. So I I really appreciated that story. Thank you.

C But I think that even in your story, Evelyn, you you'll find that In your year coming up as AIA president, that you get an opportunity to shape The direction and the values and the mission and the focus of an organization that has 90 some 1000 Practitioners who all have their own idea about what that organization ought to be about. And the one thing it gives you is a pulpit. And if you're not a preacher now, I hope that when you take over, you will become one Because that's you that's that's your opportunity. Every time you stand up before the AIA, The things that are important to you that you think ought to be important to the AI ought to be a part of your your voice. In order to always be they should be tired of hearing Evelyn talk about fill in the blank. And it doesn't matter. You've got a year To make that your platform. And every time you speak, it ought to be brought up.

C And at some point, They're going to be those young people who are sitting listen. Wow. Did you hear her say that? Oh, I'm glad she said, oh, I feel a part of that organization because she said that, and you'll be pulling the next person along.

A So my very first AI national board meeting. I was a student coming out of school, and it was, You mentioned Steve Lewis. It was at the meeting where Steve Lewis signed the memorandum of understanding between NOMA and AIA, and it was so Impactful, like, being in the room at that moment when that transaction happened, and it changed, I think, the relationship between NOMA and AIA. And he was working diligently to try and start bringing more collaboration between these 2 organizations behind common goals. So, yes, I think you're absolutely right.

C Steve and I have been partners in this fight for a very long time. When I first got involved with the AI's large firm roundtable, it was in 2017. They have meetings between the large room roundtable participants every I think twice a twice a year. And every 2 years, one of those meetings It's called the deans' forum, where they invite the deans from 20 to 30 schools to meet with the The leaders of the 50 to 60 largest firms in the country to talk about the direction of the profession. And Ken Schwartz was the dean at Tulane University at that time, and he invited me because the whoever the host is, and it was hosted by, Atulay, the host gets to invite 1 or 2 of AI administrators who the architectural educators' Administrators were not normally at those meetings. He he called me and and and explained to me what the large firm round table was And and asked me if if I would be his guest. And so I I went. And and and lo and behold, sitting at the table across from me was Steve Lewis, Who had been invited by another member of the large firm round table.

C And so Steve was doing a presentation, and a part of his presentation talked about The legacy of Whitney Young and the AIA and and and the 2% factor. The fact that when Whitney Young did his speech, there were 2% of the profession was was African American. The AI had Kathleen who did a presentation to the large for round table to show them The disparities in participation and but also not just the disparities, but the progress. And she showed that among Hispanic Americans, they that there there was an incline, though it was slight, but the percentage was increasing. Among women, It had gone from 3% to about, I think, 13 or 14% at that time. You name the group. They they she she had about 10 or 12 groups that she she And then African Americans, 2% for the last 50 years. And all of these firm leaders looked at this I said, well, you know, I think we can do much better with women.

C Now women had the highest yeah. You can do better with women. That's that's that's not it's not real hard, you know, but But you can do better with a whole lot of others. And and so I made the statement at that time. I said, if that is why you all invited me to this meeting, please send me home now. The 1 woman who was there was Carol Wedge, who who was the chair of the large firm round table. And, you know, again, to show you how easy it is, You know, you got 1 woman in a group of 50. You make her the chair.

C And Carole knew how to work that position. Then she she said because after I said, she's alright. We're gonna we're gonna address this issue straight on, and this is how we're going to do it. Because the issue is if you all don't have the guts to address the elephant in the room, to recognize if you start addressing The level of participation with African Americans, you're going to conquer the issue with every other disparate group. And so that became the charge. And they then invited us back. They had said they'd meet Twice a year, their next meeting, which was not supposed to be about schools, was that following April. And and Carol called me, and she says, I want you to get All of the other HBCU administrators, and we're inviting all of them to come to the LFRT meeting in in April in Los Angeles.

C They put us up in this I don't know the name of the hotel. It's supposed to be the tallest building in LA. Oh, man. We had a great time. But they invited us to to to talk, and we we put together a presentation of all 7 schools And present what each of our schools' focuses were on because our schools I I tell people all the time, the the 7 HBCUs are not my competition. Harvard is my competition. MIT is my competition. UVA is my competition Because my goal is to make all 7 of the HBCUs as strong as any other school in the country.

C And so I can't be using those other schools as competitors when they need to be my counterparts, when they need to be my collaborators, when they need to be my Our brothers and sisters in arms, so we work very closely together. And and and as Hampton moves to new leadership, My goal is to make sure that that collaboration continues. I continue to represent the 7 schools in I work with the FRT because I'm still on their diversity committee. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. There are a lot of things that we can continue to do, But the work from that 2017 meeting until today has been really phenomenally, And and I credit Carole with a whole lot of gumption to pushing the LFRT before she retired.

B Just listening to you talk about Stephen Lewis and then Carol, it's you know, all of these leaders, you know, Janine and I have had Experience with it just goes to show how small the profession is, I think, in many ways, But it also, to me, goes to show, like, how impactful a single voice within the profession can be to changing it.

C But but you know what is also say what you're also saying, though, Evelyn, is that you're never really alone in this work.

B That's true. Yes.

C You know, there there are a lot of friendships and collegial relationships that you build through this profession, especially when You make this profession more than about you. When you're in this profession to advance you, You can do that pretty well. This is the profession where ego counts a whole lot. And and ego is rewarded in this profession. But collaboration, there's a difference between being rewarded and being rewarding. This work that we do is rewarding when you have friends like Carol and Steve and Stan and The others who have been mentioned, Brad and and Andrew and and so many others who who all Focus on a a goal of of increasing inclusion, and there are so many others who are like that. I think The change in leadership at AIA from Bob's term as the executive director to to our our New great CEO. The the the change you know, and and her mindset, not just coming from her background, but coming from her Her professional experience makes it clear that that this is a direction that is critical to the advancement of our profession.

B You're such a great storyteller to begin with, but I would love to hear about some of the most meaningful takeaway or moments that you have had in doing this work. Maybe it's The 1 person that you impacted or the opportunity that you got to see something to fruition. You know, are are there smaller moments that keep you going as well throughout this work?

C One of the things that you enjoy as an educator is having someone call you And tell you how much of an impact x y z person wasn't she one of your students? And you're thinking back, yeah. She's not in jail right now. Oh, no. She is such a significant contributor. I had 1 young lady who was always in fights. She was always arguing with professors. I mean, she was somebody I would If thought would would would not have been successful in our profession. And and I I got a call from from, an employer One time, and I did not know where this young woman was, and and he called and said, do you have any more Coming out of your program who are like and when they said her name, I just shook my head.

C Is it she is so good. If you got any more like her and, you know, if I had taken her class and ranked them top to bottom, She'd have been in the lower 2 out of 30 in her class, but what she has grown into being I actually Ed, she's in North Carolina, so we actually tried to hire her a couple of weeks ago, and we can't afford her. But there there's so many stories like that. You you get to see students who get out of school And and become so impactful in their professional contribution to their community and to their workplaces. We we had a relationship with Carnegie Mellon with the uDREAM program. And and when I went to to see my wife and I actually just took a vacation, went to Pittsburgh, there was a whole group of Hampton graduates who remained in Pittsburgh after they finished uDrain And and are doing some fabulous work in the design community. Those are the kind of things that make you know that what you're doing makes a difference And that the people that you're working for are worth the effort. So and there's so many of them.

C It's it's hard to pick 1.

B So you did mention that you get a lot of comments from a lot of individuals coming up to you when you're in leadership positions, and I've had a few Come up to me and question whether or not we've overcorrected on on EDI. So in the nicest way possible, how do you recommend approaching these conversations and talking about the work that we still have yet to do?

C I was in a meeting not long ago. When someone asked openly in the meeting, Why does it always have to be about race? Now I I feel being an architect is a privilege, And I feel being honored by my colleagues, the Whitney Young award is a privilege. I think being selected to be the president of AI Virginia was a privilege. The president of NOMA was a privilege. This profession has afforded me a lot of privileges. And I hope one day to enjoy the privilege of waking up and being able to ask, why does it always have to be about race? To be able to go to sleep at night knowing that my son in New York is safe Because it doesn't always have to be about race. You never know the challenges that other people Don't enjoy because they don't have the privilege of being disinterested in your issue. You don't know what it is To not be able to get a job because of your disability, to not be respected because of your gender, To not know people who appreciate your culture or your the background of your nationality, We are losing our sense of compassion and empathy because we are so full of us and me That we don't look at we.

C We don't see the value of everyone else's issue. We don't see ourselves as problem solvers for the challenges that don't affect us. And it's kind of discouraging for a community and profession of problem solvers To not recognize the importance of solving the most important social and cultural issues of our time. We are so disconnected, so divisive that we don't feel the pain of those who don't hurt the way we hurt. So one day, I hope to be able to have the privilege of not feeling any pain. And when I have that privilege, I hope that I don't lose my ability to care for those who do have pain.

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